What’s the beef with non-Calvinists concerning election????

[Hammster]

The Bible tells us how He determines to deal with man. Let's permit the word to speak for itself, and not conjure up some man-made conjecture.

Zechariah 1:6
Yet surely My words and My statutes, which I commanded My servants the prophets, did they not overtake your fathers? “So they returned and said: ‘Just as the Lord of hosts determined to do to us, according to our ways and according to our deeds, so He has dealt with us.

I have no idea why man wants to follow his own intelligence, instead of believing the very word of God. God determines according to man's ways and deeds.

So your thinking is that man is autonomous, and God had no control over his actions except to react, right?

 

[EmSw]

So your thinking is that man is autonomous, and God had no control over his actions except to react, right?

Do you believe God's truth in His word?
Did you not read what it said in Zechariah?
Do you have a better way than what God said?
Is God's truth not what you really want to hear?
Would you have God do it differently than what is given us in His word?

 

[FreeGrace2]

The fact that God permits something to happen means that He is still the determiner of what happens. So all things are decreed.

How wrong can one be?? God did NOT determine WHAT Satan would do. But He always knew what Satan would do. Why is that so difficult to admit?

Permitting the free actions on someone does NOT mean that the Permitter determined what they would do.

Scripture is clear that God did NOT permit only 1 thing out of the countless things that Satan could choose from.

There is no evidence that God determined what Satan chose to do. None whatsoever. But it's clear that some just can't accept that fact.

God left the choice up to Satan. That is very clear.

Job 1:12
Then the LORD said to Satan, “Behold, all that he has is in your power, only do not put forth your hand on him.” So Satan departed from the presence of the LORD.

Job 2:6
So the LORD said to Satan, “Behold, he is in your power, only spare his life.”

One can protest all they want, but the FACT remains that God gave Satan free choice in the matter. Both times, with only 1 limitation.

Sure, God is sovereign. But He permits FREE CHOICE. He doesn't determine what people do. If He did, He would be the author or determiner of sin.

Which, of course, would be blasphemous.

Seems to me that RT does not know the meaning of some words.

 

[FreeGrace2]

So your thinking is that man is autonomous, and God had no control over his actions except to react, right?

What a strange conclusion for what EmSw said. Nothing of the kind was even suggested.

Instead of these non-helpful one-liners, why not rather interact with the Scripture that actually backed up what he said? Would that be too difficult?

He provided a verse that specifically supported his claim, and it was just brushed off. Yet, you've provided zero support for your view.

What's going on here?

 

[Hammster]

Do you believe God's truth in His word?
Did you not read what it said in Zechariah?
Do you have a better way than what God said?
Is God's truth not what you really want to hear?
Would you have God do it differently than what is given us in His word?

Please answer my question.

 

[Hammster]

How wrong can one be?? God did NOT determine WHAT Satan would do. But He always knew what Satan would do. Why is that so difficult to admit?

Permitting the free actions on someone does NOT mean that the Permitter determined what they would do.

Scripture is clear that God did NOT permit only 1 thing out of the countless things that Satan could choose from.

There is no evidence that God determined what Satan chose to do. None whatsoever. But it's clear that some just can't accept that fact.

God left the choice up to Satan. That is very clear.

Job 1:12
Then the LORD said to Satan, “Behold, all that he has is in your power, only do not put forth your hand on him.” So Satan departed from the presence of the LORD.

Job 2:6
So the LORD said to Satan, “Behold, he is in your power, only spare his life.”

One can protest all they want, but the FACT remains that God gave Satan free choice in the matter. Both times, with only 1 limitation.

Sure, God is sovereign. But He permits FREE CHOICE. He doesn't determine what people do. If He did, He would be the author or determiner of sin.

Which, of course, would be blasphemous.

Seems to me that RT does not know the meaning of some words.

That God gave Satan free choice was still God determining that Job would suffer. I'm sure He knew that Satan wasn't going to ply him with greater wealth and comfort. The purpose was for Job to suffer. God accomplished that. I don't know why you want to make Satan so sovereign.

 

[Hammster]

What a strange conclusion for what EmSw said. Nothing of the kind was even suggested.

Instead of these non-helpful one-liners, why not rather interact with the Scripture that actually backed up what he said? Would that be too difficult?

He provided a verse that specifically supported his claim, and it was just brushed off. Yet, you've provided zero support for your view.

What's going on here?

The way he used the scripture led to the question.

 

[EmSw]

So your thinking is that man is autonomous, and God had no control over his actions except to react, right?

What a strange notion you have Hammster. Do you not choose what you will do day to day? Is there a restraint on you to prevent you from choosing what you will do?

All men are free to choose as they wish; God's restraint is in His word, yet even His children still choose to freely sin and not believe His word.

Man has been given every right to think, believe, and act as they wish. And you know this from your own life's experience.

God has told us how to make ourselves a new heart, yet, most RT adherents choose not to believe this and delight their hearts with their own regeneration. Is this autonomous? Do you not freely choose what regeneration is to you, despite what God says in His Word?

God says in His Word that He determines how to deal with man according to his ways and deeds. Yet, you autonomously choose not to believe it. Man is controlled by whom he serves, either sinful self or God's truth. If you choose not to be controlled by God's truth, then your apparent truth will take the reins of your life.

Why would one question God's truth in Zechariah? It's because his apparent truth is what pleases him and satisfies his evil heart.

Now, will you please answer my questions.

 

[EmSw]

The way he used the scripture led to the question.

What's wrong with the way I used scripture? Is there something in Zechariah which offends you? Is there something which doesn't fit in with your beliefs? Is there something which you believe is not God's truth?

Please tell me what God said in Zachariah that so deeply disturbs you?

 

[heymikey80]

I said this:
You avoided the question. Did God determine that Job should suffer?


Please answer the question. Throwing a question at a question accomplishes nothing.


Please answer the question.

=yawn=. Youll just attack it. But please, have a read of "Hidden Providence", and youll see what Calvin thought, and how he answered a similar philosophers attack.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Please answer my question.

What's wrong with asking questions to questions? That's been your style for a long time.

 

[FreeGrace2]

That God gave Satan free choice was still God determining that Job would suffer. I'm sure He knew that Satan wasn't going to ply him with greater wealth and comfort. The purpose was for Job to suffer. God accomplished that. I don't know why you want to make Satan so sovereign.

Seems you're really having a problem with the fact that God allowed Satan to determine his own choices.

The issue isn't that God determined that Job would suffer, so no need to keep hiding behind it. The issue that you're hiding from is the complete free will for Satan to choose how he would make Job suffer.

And how did I try to make Satan "so sovereign". That is absurd on its face!

So it appears your view is that if one is able to make free choices, they are sovereign??? No wonder there is so much confusion within RT.

Free will choice does not equate to sovereignty. It's just a free choice.

But it's obvious that the idea threatens RT theology quite a bit.

While God determined that Job would suffer at the hand of Satan, God gave Satan free choice to do whatever Satan determined to do to Job.

Why the refusal to acknowledge that Satan's choices against Job were determined by him, and not by God? Hard to swallow?

 

[FreeGrace2]

I said this:

You avoided the question. Did God determine that Job should suffer?

Please answer the question. Throwing a question at a question accomplishes nothing.

Please answer the question.

=yawn=. Youll just attack it.

Got it; afraid of answering. Afraid of my "attack" which won't be defensible, or just afraid of revealing that there isn't an answer?

But please, have a read of "Hidden Providence", and youll see what Calvin thought, and how he answered a similar philosophers attack.

I'm not interested in what he thought. My interest is what Scripture SAYS, and why so many believers don't believe what Scripture SAYS.

 

[Hammster]

What a strange notion you have Hammster. Do you not choose what you will do day to day? Is there a restraint on you to prevent you from choosing what you will do?

All men are free to choose as they wish; God's restraint is in His word, yet even His children still choose to freely sin and not believe His word.

Man has been given every right to think, believe, and act as they wish. And you know this from your own life's experience.

God has told us how to make ourselves a new heart, yet, most RT adherents choose not to believe this and delight their hearts with their own regeneration. Is this autonomous? Do you not freely choose what regeneration is to you, despite what God says in His Word?

God says in His Word that He determines how to deal with man according to his ways and deeds. Yet, you autonomously choose not to believe it. Man is controlled by whom he serves, either sinful self or God's truth. If you choose not to be controlled by God's truth, then your apparent truth will take the reins of your life.

Why would one question God's truth in Zechariah? It's because his apparent truth is what pleases him and satisfies his evil heart.

Now, will you please answer my questions.

Since God can do as He pleases, and could stop me from sinning at any time, if I sin it's because it's allowed by Him for a purpose. Any good I do is because of Christ in me. So, God is in control of it all.

 

[Hammster]

What's wrong with the way I used scripture? Is there something in Zechariah which offends you? Is there something which doesn't fit in with your beliefs? Is there something which you believe is not God's truth?

Please tell me what God said in Zachariah that so deeply disturbs you?

I never said the scripture bothered me. Heck, I'm not even an Israelite.

 

[Hammster]

What's wrong with asking questions to questions? That's been your style for a long time.

No it hasn't.

 

[Hammster]

Seems you're really having a problem with the fact that God allowed Satan to determine his own choices.

No, I'm not.

The issue isn't that God determined that Job would suffer, so no need to keep hiding behind it. The issue that you're hiding from is the complete free will for Satan to choose how he would make Job suffer.

No, the issue is God's decree. How He chose to carry it out is because He sovereignly used Satan to do so.

And how did I try to make Satan "so sovereign". That is absurd on its face!

Of course you wouldn't phrase it that way. But either God is sovereign over the entire situation (even in allowing Satan limited freedom), or He's not. You keep advocating for Satan's freedom, so that leads to the conclusion.

So it appears your view is that if one is able to make free choices, they are sovereign??? No wonder there is so much confusion within RT.

There's really no such thing as a free choice if God can overrule it at any time.

Free will choice does not equate to sovereignty. It's just a free choice.

But it's obvious that the idea threatens RT theology quite a bit.

not at all.

While God determined that Job would suffer at the hand of Satan, God gave Satan free choice to do whatever Satan determined to do to Job.

Right, and did so knowing that Satan would comply in making Job suffer.

Why the refusal to acknowledge that Satan's choices against Job were determined by him, and not by God? Hard to swallow?

No, not hard to swallow. Just shallow thinking.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Since God can do as He pleases, and could stop me from sinning at any time, if I sin it's because it's allowed by Him for a purpose.

I would really like to see an explanation of how anyone's sins have a purpose for God.

Any good I do is because of Christ in me. So, God is in control of it all.

Does this include all the sin that God has a purpose for?

I can't imagine any purpose that God would have for sin. To make Him look better by comparison, or something? If not that, then what?

 

[FreeGrace2]

I said this:
What's wrong with asking questions to questions? That's been your style for a long time.

No it hasn't.

Well, when did it start? I'd consider at least a year to be a long time.

 

[FreeGrace2]

No, the issue is God's decree. How He chose to carry it out is because He sovereignly used Satan to do so.

Did God determine what Satan specifically did to Job, or not.

Of course you wouldn't phrase it that way.

It is clear the problem of phrasing in not on my side, but on yours. Why not just acknowledge that God gave Satan the freedom to determine his own kind of actions against Job?

But either God is sovereign over the entire situation (even in allowing Satan limited freedom), or He's not. You keep advocating for Satan's freedom, so that leads to the conclusion.

I advocate for TRUTH, which it appears is not important to your side. Was Satan free in his choices of what he did to Job, or not?

There's really no such thing as a free choice if God can overrule it at any time.

One more example of very confused thinking. Since God does NOT overrule most of our choices, they ARE free. Duh.

If He overrules a choice, then we simply didn't make it. Duh.

All the choices we make are freely made. God doesn't determine our choices any more than He determined Satan's choices of how to make Job suffer.

God allowed Satan to make his own choices, and there is no evidence to the contrary.

Previously I asked your opinion on these verses, but haven't gotten a response:

Job 1:12
Then the LORD said to Satan, “Behold, all that he has is in your power, only do not put forth your hand on him.” So Satan departed from the presence of the LORD.

Job 2:6
So the LORD said to Satan, “Behold, he is in your power, only spare his life.”

Where do you see God determining WHAT Satan would do to Job?

Hint: you don't.