What’s the beef with non-Calvinists concerning election????

[Hammster]

One of your own has said today that God determines all that occurs. Then he said that what God has determined men freely carry out. Amazing contradiction.

Everything that God does is because He is sovereign. But that doesn't mean that He determines the actions and thoughts of men. On occasion, He does influence people, but there is no evidence from Scripture that He determines ALL of what men do or think.

I've never questioned or challenged that what God does has a purpose, so I'm not sure why the "sermon" here.

But RT also believes that Christ didn't die for everyone and that God chooses who will believe. These 2 points cannot be supported by Scripture because it doesn't teach either one.

That means RT was built on a faulty premise.

If I'm wrong, please direct me to the passages that really do teach these 2 premises of Calvinism. Then I'll convert. I promise.

btw, by admitting that God permits man to act freely, that's what I mean by free will.

Apparently the shallowness of your theology is so one dimensional that it doesn't understand that God allowing things to happen is still decreeing all that will occur. Once you grasp that, you'll move a step up the theology ladder.

 

[Skala]

That doesn't cover the PROBLEM if God determines everything. That would mean He determines sin and evil. Do you really believe that????

The very fact that He is perfect, just and HOLY proves your view wrong.

Just saying because He is holy He can still determine/cause/ordain sin just doesn't cut it.


Actually, your comment here clearly demonstrates a complete failure to grasp any part of my posts. Thanks for letting us know that.


Maybe you're more confused than you could ever know.

I'll tell you what's not for me: RT. 2 of its prime premises cannot be found in Scripture:
1. Christ didn't die for everyone.
2. God chooses who will believe.

If any Calvinist can find verses that actually SAY these things, I will convert to RT. Immediately.

Actually, since Scripture clearly SAYS that Christ died for everyone, and that God choses to save believers, but not that He chooses who will believe, if anyone does find verses that SAY what RT claims concerning these 2 premises, then they will have proven Scripture to be contradictory.

That'll be interesting. But I'm not worried one bit.

Huh. Interesting. I didn't know John Owen's book that talks about Limited Atonement and exegetes the Bible was just a bunch of blank pages. What did I spend money on ?!?!?!?!

 

[FreeGrace2]

Apparently the shallowness of your theology is so one dimensional that it doesn't understand that God allowing things to happen is still decreeing all that will occur.

Still a bit touchy about not being able to demonstrate any verse or passage that actually SAYS what RT claims, huh. My theology is hardly "shallow". It's just that there are no verses that RT can show that SAY what it claims.

Of course God does know (omniscience) all that will occur, and He is free to decree all of that. But I suspect your theology goes much further than just that.

Like, God actually determines all that occurs. God can decree what He knows will occur. But to determine all that occurs removes any semblance of free choice among His creatures.

I've proven from Job 1 and 2 that Satan acted freely in all that he did to Job. Yes, he was prevented from first touching his body, and second, killing him. But all that he did was freely chosen. RT cannot show any Scripture that indicates that God determined what Satan did.

Once you grasp that, you'll move a step up the theology ladder.

I grasp truth quite well, thank you. Which is why I'm not a Calvinist. I'm glad that God didn't predestine me for Calvinism.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Huh. Interesting. I didn't know John Owen's book that talks about Limited Atonement and exegetes the Bible was just a bunch of blank pages.

Did you get a discount on all those blank pages?

Sure, Calvinists are very wordy. I have no doubt that JO's book was full of words and pages, and such. But if he really did exegete the Bible, it wouldn't have been about LA.

Or, here's a thought. How come he can exegete the Bible regarding LA but none of the Calvinists on CF can?

I've never seen any exegesis on LA here.

What did I spend money on ?!?!?!?!

Untruth.

 

[Hammster]

Still a bit touchy about not being able to demonstrate any verse or passage that actually SAYS what RT claims, huh. My theology is hardly "shallow". It's just that there are no verses that RT can show that SAY what it claims.

Of course God does know (omniscience) all that will occur, and He is free to decree all of that. But I suspect your theology goes much further than just that.

Like, God actually determines all that occurs. God can decree what He knows will occur. But to determine all that occurs removes any semblance of free choice among His creatures.

I've proven from Job 1 and 2 that Satan acted freely in all that he did to Job. Yes, he was prevented from first touching his body, and second, killing him. But all that he did was freely chosen. RT cannot show any Scripture that indicates that God determined what Satan did.

So a God didn't determine that Job should suffer?

 

[FreeGrace2]

So a God didn't determine that Job should suffer?

I don't about any "a God", but God Himself didn't determine WHAT Satan would do. Or do you disagree? And if so, please support your disagreement by Scripture that plainly shows that God determined the stuff that Satan did to Job.

I love how you ignore my posts and respond with a totally off the wall comment or question that has no relevance. It does reveal the problem of trying to defend a position that can't be.

Why was there no response to this:
Like, God actually determines all that occurs. God can decree what He knows will occur. But to determine all that occurs removes any semblance of free choice among His creatures.

 

[Skala]

Did you get a discount on all those blank pages?

Sure, Calvinists are very wordy. I have no doubt that JO's book was full of words and pages, and such. But if he really did exegete the Bible, it wouldn't have been about LA.

Or, here's a thought. How come he can exegete the Bible regarding LA but none of the Calvinists on CF can?

I've never seen any exegesis on LA here.


Untruth.

Read it before you have an opinion on it.

Also, you've seen plenty of exegesis. You just ignore it.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Read it before you have an opinion on it.

I have read it. Which is WHY I gave an opinion on it.

Also, you've seen plenty of exegesis. You just ignore it.

I've seen lots of eisegesis, for sure.

 

[Hammster]

I don't about any "a God", but God Himself didn't determine WHAT Satan would do. Or do you disagree? And if so, please support your disagreement by Scripture that plainly shows that God determined the stuff that Satan did to Job.

I love how you ignore my posts and respond with a totally off the wall comment or question that has no relevance. It does reveal the problem of trying to defend a position that can't be.

Why was there no response to this:
Like, God actually determines all that occurs. God can decree what He knows will occur. But to determine all that occurs removes any semblance of free choice among His creatures.

You avoided the question. Did God determine that Job should suffer?

 

[FreeGrace2]

I said this:
Of course God does know (omniscience) all that will occur, and He is free to decree all of that. But I suspect your theology goes much further than just that.

Like, God actually determines all that occurs. God can decree what He knows will occur. But to determine all that occurs removes any semblance of free choice among His creatures.

I've proven from Job 1 and 2 that Satan acted freely in all that he did to Job. Yes, he was prevented from first touching his body, and second, killing him. But all that he did was freely chosen. RT cannot show any Scripture that indicates that God determined what Satan did.

You avoided the question. Did God determine that Job should suffer?

See above. The answer to your question. Hidden in broad daylight in the second paragraph.

I'll ask a related question:

Did God determine what Satan did to Job? Yes or no?

 

[Hammster]

I said this:
Of course God does know (omniscience) all that will occur, and He is free to decree all of that. But I suspect your theology goes much further than just that.

Like, God actually determines all that occurs. God can decree what He knows will occur. But to determine all that occurs removes any semblance of free choice among His creatures.

I've proven from Job 1 and 2 that Satan acted freely in all that he did to Job. Yes, he was prevented from first touching his body, and second, killing him. But all that he did was freely chosen. RT cannot show any Scripture that indicates that God determined what Satan did.

See above. The answer to your question. Hidden in broad daylight in the second paragraph.

I'll ask a related question:

Did God determine what Satan did to Job? Yes or no?

All you've addressed was that Satan determined how Job would suffer. Did God determine the Job should suffer?

And no, God did not directly determine what Satan would do. But that He allowed Him to do it proves His sovereignty over the entire situation. Satan was a pawn. That's all he is.

 

[Marvin Knox]

[FONT=&quot]Looks like we’ve all been busy little bees while I was away.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]FreeGrace said, = “You've just dug a very large hole that I'm sure no one will be able to climb out of.”

[/FONT][FONT=&quot]I guess I’d better get to extricating myself from that hole before you deniers of absolute sovereignty throw any more dirt in on me.

FreeGrace said, “Glad to see that you acknowledge the apparent contradiction. It is apparent, and it is a contradiction.” [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]
AU CONTRAIRE! It is a paradox. It isn’t a contradiction. It is just an apparent contradiction as you said the first time.[/FONT]​

[FONT=&quot]
FreeGrace said, “I've asked several Calvinists why it doesn't "go away" by mentioning free choice. I've not gotten any answers. Can you explain why free choice doesn't solve the problem of free will?[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
The bigger problem we are talking about here isn’t free will. It is the paradox of God ordaining all things and Him not being evil because of the evil consequences of the evil He ordained. That problem does not go away if one believes that God ordained everything that comes to past. I don't need the problem to go away to believe what God says. On the other hand if you deny that truth - it will of course go away. Convenient I suppose. Just wrong.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT][FONT=&quot]Not allowing for any mysteries in God’s Word is the root of your problem here. If it makes no sense to you and it hasn’t been fully explained to your satisfaction by God – He must not have said it. Surely He said something else. Shades of the Garden of Eden. (Hath God really said?”) [/FONT][FONT=&quot]
[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
FreeGrace said, "I don't see how absolute sovereignty solves anything. If anything, it puts the blame of sin directly on God Himself, which I cannot accept. He is perfectly holy, and cannot sin, cannot tempt to sin. How in the world could He be the cause of sin and evil? It doesn't make sense to me……….If He is the cause of sin, why does He punish said sin? That doesn't make sense to me."[/FONT][FONT=&quot]

Me either. That’s why it’s a paradox.[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]By the way He haspunished said sin. He laid all of the sins in history on Himself.
I say that much to the consternation of my 5-point friends. But then that's just the way I roll. [/FONT][FONT=&quot]

[/FONT][FONT=&quot]FreeGrace said, “But I don't really see mysteries in Scripture.”[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT][FONT=&quot]I do! [/FONT][FONT=&quot]

[/FONT][FONT=&quot]FreeGrace said, “Could you elaborate on that a bit? I'm not sure I understand that anyone is finding ways around God's sovereignty.”[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
Saying that people’s actions are not decreed by God is getting around God’s total sovereignty IMO. Seeing a world where God simply “allows” actions and isn’t involved deeply denies the basic concept of God’s omniscience (with corresponding predestination of all that happens). It also denies the omni-presence of God (and His upholding all things by the Word of His power) as taught in scripture. It denies the doctrine of concurrent action of God and man as clearly demonstrated in scripture. [/FONT][FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]To me - even if election were somehow shown to not be clearly stated in any particular verse of scripture as taught by RT (not gonna happen though[/FONT][FONT=&quot]) – the errors required to teach limited sovereignty as you do - totally dwarf any errors possibly taught by the doctrine of election.. [/FONT][FONT=&quot]
[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
FreeGrace said, ”[/FONT][FONT=&quot]The contradiction is quite apparent. What He ordains, He authors. Or, to put it another way, what has He ordained that He didn't author?”[/FONT][FONT=&quot]

What is quite apparent here is that we have a “paradox” (an apparent contradiction).[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]To me - saying that God ordained the crucifixion of Jesus for instance but He didn’t ordain the sinful act of crucifixion would be a true contradiction. [/FONT][FONT=&quot]
[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
FreeGrace said, “Did God cause any of those evil men to commit their act? No”.[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
Like you, I also believe that Pharaoh hardened his own heart. I believe that the brothers sinned in sending Joseph to Egypt. I also believe that evil men sinned against Jesus.

“Cause” is a loaded word. That is why the WCF pointedly avoided using it and chose the language they chose. They acknowledged the existence of the mysteries. You do not..

That God ordained that evil take place and not be Himself evil for doing so is an apparent contradiction as I have said I believe it to be. The WCF’s way of saying that God did not “cause” it - seems to me to be the best way to handle it . Perhaps that seems like playing with words to you. But we do our best in understanding these things. I believe the way that the WCF handled this mystery is head and shoulders above the way “non-sovereignty” people like yourself handle it. [/FONT][FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]The reason I believe that to be so (as I have said) is that to handle it the way most evangelicals handle it requires a suspension (or at least an ignoring) of many other basic teachings clearly taught in scripture.

I'll get into those basic teachings quickly if I can have a couple of postings space. I may not go back and forth until I make a big point to debate. I’ve got to go a little longer between posts due to my limited time at the computer.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT][FONT=&quot]That probably means you've got all the free posts you want to throw dirt in the hole without me responding. That may go on for a while.
[/FONT]

 

[Marvin Knox]

FreeGrace said, “ still don't know what is meant by "decreed". Bottom line: does God decide all that occurs or not? Sounds as if your view is that God does decide all that occurs.

Yes! You are correct.
[FONT=&quot]
Decree: [/FONT][FONT=&quot]a formal and authoritative order, especially one having the force of law behind it. One of the eternal purposes of God by which events are foreordained. Cut and pasted. But they seem about right to me. I’d probably say something like “God’s declaration that something is going to happen and nothing will stop it.”[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
Lot’s of “eloquent” responses have transpired in the last couple of days. Lots of talk about oxymorons, computer programming and puppetry. You guys are all on the same Cool Aid it seems. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
I used the same terminology myself when I learned that the scripture left no doubt that God was totally sovereign. I suspect everyone who rightly believes in total sovereignty would think and say the same things at first. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
I’m acknowledging (me at least) that there is a mystery about how God can do these things and not be sinful Himself. I’m also acknowledging that it seems like puppetry and computer programming. There’s no disagreement concerning those problems being there with belief in total sovereignty. The difference between us is my willingness to let there be mystery.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
Whenever there is a paradox in scripture I choose to start by believing all that God has said about the matter. In other words I believe and accept both sides of the paradox. Most you in the opposite camp choose to pick your favorite side of the paradox and reject the side they find it most comfortable to reject or refute. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
That’s not a wise policy in my view. I liken it to the Israelites refusal to believe God when He said they could take the land across the Jordan. They saw the giants and the large fortified cities and found it difficult to believe what God said in the matter. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
Joshua and Caleb saw all of those problems as well. However Joshua and Caleb accepted God’s word on the matter as well as the obvious problems. The Israelites on the other hand couldn’t accept both sides of the equation. They chose the one side they could see with their own eyes and rejected what they could not. As a result they had to take another lap around the Sinai. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
No doubt in my mind that if they had believed both sides of the paradox they would have seen the solutions after they acted on God’s word. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
Believe it first. Answers will likely follow. A little like that tree situation in the garden and the choice Adam and Eve had to make. If they had believed God and acted like it - the answers to their questions would have likely come to them without all the pain. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
I think it’s a little like what God says concerning more being given to those who have and that which they have being taken away from those who have not. Not only that. I believe that the person who will not believe what God says will possibly find himself spiraling into more and more error. That’s what I think has happened with people who have rejected God’s absolute sovereignty.[/FONT]

FreeGrace said, “Just doublespeak here. It CANNOT be of their own will IF God first determined what actions would occur and then made sure it happened that way.
What's you've described is theological puppetry. Nothing less.”

[FONT=&quot]EmSw said, [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]“[/FONT]This is called an oxymoron to say God determines man's actions but man does them of his own will.”

If I program a computer to do certain things, and I hate what the computer does, then I, the programmer, am the only one to blame. I can't blame the computer for doing what I programmed it to do, can I?

Also, since I programmed the computer to do what I have determined for it to do, then any actions by the computer is not its actions. It is only waiting to be acted upon by the programmer. It is the same with men; since they are being acted upon, they are unable to do anything of themselves. Any actions of idle men, would be the responsibility of the programmer.

“To say I program a computer to determine how it acts, and then say the computer acts on its own, is to put reason to sleep. Man's reason and understanding, when lifted into the light of Heaven, would see the folly of such a statement.

“If a man only acts by the determination of another, then it cannot be called his own. If I work for a company which makes useful widgets, and I make them by the company's policy, standards, and blueprint, then I surely can't say the widgets are mine, which came from my own will and invention.”

That all sounds well and good from man’s standpoint. The only trouble is - you are not God.

“You thought that I was just like you”

“My thoughts are not your thoughts,
Nor are your ways My ways, declares the Lord.
For as the heavens are higher than the earth,
So are My ways higher than your ways
And My thoughts than your thoughts.”

More as soon as I can!

 

[EmSw]

[FONT=&quot]Decree: [/FONT][FONT=&quot]a formal and authoritative order, especially one having the force of law behind it. One of the eternal purposes of God by which events are foreordained. Cut and pasted. But they seem about right to me. I’d probably say something like “God’s declaration that something is going to happen and nothing will stop it.”[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot]
[/FONT] [FONT=&quot]
I will ask you Marvin, can a decree be voided?

[FONT=&quot]God [FONT=&quot]decrees[/FONT] the soul[FONT=&quot] that sins will die. [/FONT][/FONT]If this author[FONT=&quot]itative order cannot be [FONT=&quot]stopp[/FONT]ed, no man will enter the kingdom. Is this decree foreordained[FONT=&quot]? [/FONT][/FONT]
[/FONT][/FONT] [FONT=&quot]
[/FONT][FONT=&quot]

Lot’s of “eloquent” responses have transpired in the last couple of days. Lots of talk about oxymorons, computer programming and puppetry. You guys are all on the same Cool Aid it seems.

[/FONT][FONT=&quot]

[FONT=&quot]We are using [FONT=&quot]o[FONT=&quot]ur God-given[FONT=&quot] faculty of reason. Some want to throw reason and understanding out the do[FONT=&quot]or in order to sustain their beliefs.[/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT][FONT=&quot]

I used the same terminology myself when I learned that the scripture left no doubt that God was totally sovereign. I suspect everyone who rightly believes in total sovereignty would think and say the same things at first.

[/FONT][FONT=&quot]

[FONT=&quot]God's [FONT=&quot]s[/FONT]overei[FONT=&quot]gnty does [/FONT][/FONT]not negate reason and understanding.
[/FONT] [FONT=&quot]
[/FONT][FONT=&quot]

I’m acknowledging (me at least) that there is a mystery about how God can do these things and not be sinful Himself. I’m also acknowledging that it seems like puppetry and computer programming. There’s no disagreement concerning those problems being there with belief in total sovereignty. The difference between us is my willingness to let there be mystery.

[/FONT][FONT=&quot]

[FONT=&quot]I was wondering when I would hear the word[FONT=&quot] 'mystery[FONT=&quot]'. I find it strange that man would make a foundational doctrine out of a mystery. H[FONT=&quot]ow can [FONT=&quot]man[/FONT] [FONT=&quot]develop a doctrine out of something [/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT]he does not know? If it's a mystery, then any guess by man as to what it is, is like walking in the dark.

[FONT=&quot]Just b[FONT=&quot]ecaus[FONT=&quot]e man says God determines and decrees everything, yet does not sin, doe[FONT=&quot]s not make it so. This is only lips making a[FONT=&quot]n unknown noise, while the heart [FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot]remains [FONT=&quot]in the dark[/FONT][/FONT][FONT=&quot]. Yet some wa[FONT=&quot]nt to base their beliefs on on this clu[FONT=&quot]eless mystery.[/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT][FONT=&quot]

Whenever there is a paradox in scripture I choose to start by believing all that God has said about the matter. In other words I believe and accept both sides of the paradox. Most you in the opposite camp choose to pick your favorite side of the paradox and reject the side they find it most comfortable to reject or refute.

[/FONT][FONT=&quot]

[FONT=&quot]I am not a spring chi[FONT=&quot]cken. I have [FONT=&quot]heard most beliefs people have come up with in my 50+ years. I have weigh[FONT=&quot]ed some and found them wanting. [/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT][FONT=&quot]

That’s not a wise policy in my view. I liken it to the Israelites refusal to believe God when He said they could take the land across the Jordan. They saw the giants and the large fortified cities and found it difficult to believe what God said in the matter.

[/FONT][FONT=&quot]

[FONT=&quot]Or man's refusal to believe God when He says to cast away all your transgressions to make yourself a new heart and new spirit. He sees it as a giant which would defeat his [FONT=&quot]earthly-based belief of regeneration, and finds it difficult to believe God in this matter.[/FONT][/FONT]
[/FONT] [FONT=&quot]
[/FONT][FONT=&quot]

Joshua and Caleb saw all of those problems as well. However Joshua and Caleb accepted God’s word on the matter as well as the obvious problems. The Israelites on the other hand couldn’t accept both sides of the equation. They chose the one side they could see with their own eyes and rejected what they could not. As a result they had to take another lap around the Sinai.

[/FONT][FONT=&quot]

[FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot]The problem with some men is they WILL NOT accept God's word on the matter of a new heart. H[FONT=&quot]ow many laps will some men take before they [FONT=&quot]actually believe God's [FONT=&quot]truth?[/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT][FONT=&quot]

No doubt in my mind that if they had believed both sides of the paradox they would have seen the solutions after they acted on God’s word.

[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]
Believe it first. Answers will likely follow. A little like that tree situation in the garden and the choice Adam and Eve had to make. If they had believed God and acted like it - the answers to their questions would have likely come to them without all the pain. [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]

[FONT=&quot]How true Marvin. Why some men won't believe and act upon God's truth of casting away all his transgressions to make himself a new heart and a new spirit, must grieve God. But, man who does not choose make himself a new heart the way God s[FONT=&quot]a[FONT=&quot]ys[/FONT] (the tree of life), will put himself on the throne of his life and choose to do things his way (the tree of knowledge of [FONT=&quot]good and ev[FONT=&quot]il)[/FONT][/FONT]. [/FONT][/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT][FONT=&quot]

I think it’s a little like what God says concerning more being given to those who have and that which they have being taken away from those who have not. Not only that. I believe that the person who will not believe what God says will possibly find himself spiraling into more and more error. That’s what I think has happened with people who have rejected God’s absolute sovereignty.

[/FONT]

Part of God's sovereignty is mankind reading, understanding, and obeying His Divine Word or decree if you will. But some will reject this, and not submit to this sovereignty of God. They had rather do it their own way. Then, if something does not please nor delight their heart, or they disagree with God's word, they can make their own decrees, and place themselves on their throne of sovereignty.

 

[heymikey80]

You avoided the question. Did God determine that Job should suffer?

Did God determine that Jesus should suffer?

Does God take this deterministic control and delegate or grant it to others, knowing fully what they do with it, and ordering the world thereby as a trustworthy God of His world? Because that is what Calvin described rather specifically.

 

[FreeGrace2]

All you've addressed was that Satan determined how Job would suffer. Did God determine the Job should suffer?

Sure.

And no, God did not directly determine what Satan would do. But that He allowed Him to do it proves His sovereignty over the entire situation. Satan was a pawn. That's all he is.

I never suggested otherwise. The Bible is clear that God permits lots of stuff that He doesn't determine. And the word "directly" wasn't necessary in your answer. God didn't determine what Satan would do. He knew, for sure, but He didn't determine what Satan did. Satan determined what he would do.

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace said, “ still don't know what is meant by "decreed". Bottom line: does God decide all that occurs or not? Sounds as if your view is that God does decide all that occurs.

Yes! You are correct.

Not correct. Job is a clear example. While God permitted Satan to torment Job, God did not determine what Satan would do. God gave Satan only 1 limitation in each event. Satan determined and decided what he would do.

I’m acknowledging (me at least) that there is a mystery about how God can do these things and not be sinful Himself. I’m also acknowledging that it seems like puppetry and computer programming. There’s no disagreement concerning those problems being there with belief in total sovereignty. The difference between us is my willingness to let there be mystery.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]

Where's the virtue in admitting such? Thanks for acknowledging the issues involved in your view. But there is no need to be willing to accept what you can't explain. I can and have explained the issues and there is no mystery.

Whenever there is a paradox in scripture I choose to start by believing all that God has said about the matter. In other words I believe and accept both sides of the paradox. Most you in the opposite camp choose to pick your favorite side of the paradox and reject the side they find it most comfortable to reject or refute. [/FONT][FONT=&quot]

I don't see any paradox. That's the difference between us. My explanation does not have either paradox or mystery.

Believe it first. Answers will likely follow.

Likely? All I've gotten is paradox and mystery. No answers.

FreeGrace said, [/U][/B]“Just doublespeak here. It CANNOT be of their own will IF God first determined what actions would occur and then made sure it happened that way.
What's you've described is theological puppetry. Nothing less.”

I stand by my statement.

[FONT=&quot]EmSw said, [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]“[/FONT]This is called an oxymoron to say God determines man's actions but man does them of his own will.”

If I program a computer to do certain things, and I hate what the computer does, then I, the programmer, am the only one to blame. I can't blame the computer for doing what I programmed it to do, can I?

Also, since I programmed the computer to do what I have determined for it to do, then any actions by the computer is not its actions. It is only waiting to be acted upon by the programmer. It is the same with men; since they are being acted upon, they are unable to do anything of themselves. Any actions of idle men, would be the responsibility of the programmer.

“To say I program a computer to determine how it acts, and then say the computer acts on its own, is to put reason to sleep. Man's reason and understanding, when lifted into the light of Heaven, would see the folly of such a statement.

“If a man only acts by the determination of another, then it cannot be called his own. If I work for a company which makes useful widgets, and I make them by the company's policy, standards, and blueprint, then I surely can't say the widgets are mine, which came from my own will and invention.”

That all sounds well and good from man’s standpoint. The only trouble is - you are not God.

His points were extremely articulate and demonstrates the error of RT's view of His sovereignty. To just dismiss his points is a dodge.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I said this:
You avoided the question. Did God determine that Job should suffer?

Did God determine that Jesus should suffer?

Please answer the question. Throwing a question at a question accomplishes nothing.

Does God take this deterministic control and delegate or grant it to others, knowing fully what they do with it, and ordering the world thereby as a trustworthy God of His world? Because that is what Calvin described rather specifically.

Please answer the question.

 

[Hammster]

Sure.


I never suggested otherwise. The Bible is clear that God permits lots of stuff that He doesn't determine. And the word "directly" wasn't necessary in your answer. God didn't determine what Satan would do. He knew, for sure, but He didn't determine what Satan did. Satan determined what he would do.

The fact that God permits something to happen means that He is still the determiner of what happens. So all things are decreed.

 

[EmSw]

The fact that God permits something to happen means that He is still the determiner of what happens. So all things are decreed.

The Bible tells us how He determines to deal with man. Let's permit the word to speak for itself, and not conjure up some man-made conjecture.

Zechariah 1:6
Yet surely My words and My statutes, which I commanded My servants the prophets, did they not overtake your fathers? “So they returned and said: ‘Just as the Lord of hosts determined to do to us, according to our ways and according to our deeds, so He has dealt with us.

I have no idea why man wants to follow his own intelligence, instead of believing the very word of God. God determines according to man's ways and deeds.