So called Calvinists see God’s supreme grace in His election of some and a corresponding effectual call to those elect. They see that in scripture. Some may disagree. Calvinists see that that effectual call somehow opens the hearts of the elect to the truth and they are saved through faith. Special grace or special calling some call it.
This concept seems to be particularly offensive to many. I’m not sure why.
We all believe that God extends more grace to some than others. If you don’t see that in scripture and in the world in general you are simply in denial.
If we leave out the dreaded word “ELECTION”, we still have all of those special examples of grace to believe in the scriptures. God extended special grace to some in scripture and passed by others. He did not extend that special grace to everyone. It shouldn’t be necessary to prove that point. Lydia, Paul and for that matter all of the apostles come to mind just to name a few.
If we leave out the dreaded word “ELECTION” again, we still have real life to show us these truths. Surely we all can agree that God gives more clear and compelling chances at believing to be saved to some than to others in this world. I won’t give examples. If you don’t see that – you’re living in a different world than the one I am living in.
In addition – we all know that God didn’t need to save anyone. And even if He chose to do so He could have done it without requiring faith or anything else above and beyond Christ’s work at Calvary. Presumably He could have just died and then whisked everyone on earth to Heaven the same day if He had wanted to.
Whether you are a Catholic, Orthodox, , Calvinist, Arminian, fee grace, or whatever else there may be (excluding universalists of course) – you can’t get around the fact that God created people and God treats those people in what we humans can only call an unequal manner.
It seems that most people will probably go to Hell for eternity. God knew who would and who wouldn’t and then created them all anyway. He even says that it would have been better for those who won’t believe had they never been born.
For that matter He could have only created people who would believe. Universalism could well have been true had God done things that way.
Some say that the God of the Calvinist would be a monster. But if that is your assessment of the Calvinist God how is your God any less so?
So what’s the beef with some of you when it comes to this special grace being defined by the word election rather than just calling it something like special and highly effective grace to believe for some and not for others? Is it the word election itself? Is it that you find it more palatable to think that God is just doing these things on the spur of the moment rather than believing that He planned to do them all along?
Some people try to get God off the hook as it were by picturing Him as just somehow “allowing” these things. It is as if they can’t see the clear teaching from scripture that our God not only creates everything but upholds and orchestrates everything as well – that we live and move and have our being in Him.
I’ve thought many times that those who do that kind of thing seem to be worshipping a different God entirely than the one I see in scripture. Maybe you do see God as not omni-present and upholding everything by the Word of His power. Maybe you disagree that God has always planned the working of everything in this universe and beyond after the wise council of His will.
I guess if you believe in this different God we could hear from you here also.
But again – assuming you haven’t completely created God in an image you can handle – how is your God that much different than the God of the Calvinist just because you don’t use the word “ELECTION”?
If you don’t like the Calvinist’s way of explaining God’s selectivity – what is yours and how is yours better or more kind?
[FONT="]I’m not looking for arguments concerning regeneration before faith or the definition of the words election vs. the word choosing or even talking about the doctrine of limited atonement here. I’m not even looking to prove or not prove here that the Bible teaches election/reprobation in any particular passage.
It may be too much to ask. But leave those arguments for other threads please.
It wouldn't be very exciting if Calvinists don't jump in as well. And you know how we all like excitement.
[/FONT]
This concept seems to be particularly offensive to many. I’m not sure why.
We all believe that God extends more grace to some than others. If you don’t see that in scripture and in the world in general you are simply in denial.
If we leave out the dreaded word “ELECTION”, we still have all of those special examples of grace to believe in the scriptures. God extended special grace to some in scripture and passed by others. He did not extend that special grace to everyone. It shouldn’t be necessary to prove that point. Lydia, Paul and for that matter all of the apostles come to mind just to name a few.
If we leave out the dreaded word “ELECTION” again, we still have real life to show us these truths. Surely we all can agree that God gives more clear and compelling chances at believing to be saved to some than to others in this world. I won’t give examples. If you don’t see that – you’re living in a different world than the one I am living in.
In addition – we all know that God didn’t need to save anyone. And even if He chose to do so He could have done it without requiring faith or anything else above and beyond Christ’s work at Calvary. Presumably He could have just died and then whisked everyone on earth to Heaven the same day if He had wanted to.
Whether you are a Catholic, Orthodox, , Calvinist, Arminian, fee grace, or whatever else there may be (excluding universalists of course) – you can’t get around the fact that God created people and God treats those people in what we humans can only call an unequal manner.
It seems that most people will probably go to Hell for eternity. God knew who would and who wouldn’t and then created them all anyway. He even says that it would have been better for those who won’t believe had they never been born.
For that matter He could have only created people who would believe. Universalism could well have been true had God done things that way.
Some say that the God of the Calvinist would be a monster. But if that is your assessment of the Calvinist God how is your God any less so?
So what’s the beef with some of you when it comes to this special grace being defined by the word election rather than just calling it something like special and highly effective grace to believe for some and not for others? Is it the word election itself? Is it that you find it more palatable to think that God is just doing these things on the spur of the moment rather than believing that He planned to do them all along?
Some people try to get God off the hook as it were by picturing Him as just somehow “allowing” these things. It is as if they can’t see the clear teaching from scripture that our God not only creates everything but upholds and orchestrates everything as well – that we live and move and have our being in Him.
I’ve thought many times that those who do that kind of thing seem to be worshipping a different God entirely than the one I see in scripture. Maybe you do see God as not omni-present and upholding everything by the Word of His power. Maybe you disagree that God has always planned the working of everything in this universe and beyond after the wise council of His will.
I guess if you believe in this different God we could hear from you here also.
But again – assuming you haven’t completely created God in an image you can handle – how is your God that much different than the God of the Calvinist just because you don’t use the word “ELECTION”?
If you don’t like the Calvinist’s way of explaining God’s selectivity – what is yours and how is yours better or more kind?
[FONT="]I’m not looking for arguments concerning regeneration before faith or the definition of the words election vs. the word choosing or even talking about the doctrine of limited atonement here. I’m not even looking to prove or not prove here that the Bible teaches election/reprobation in any particular passage.
It may be too much to ask. But leave those arguments for other threads please.
It wouldn't be very exciting if Calvinists don't jump in as well. And you know how we all like excitement.
[/FONT]
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