What’s the beef with non-Calvinists concerning election????

[heymikey80]

No it hasn't.

He does confuse respondents with one another.

 

[Marvin Knox]

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I will ask you Marvin, can a decree be voided?
[FONT=&quot]God [FONT=&quot]decrees[/FONT] the soul[FONT=&quot] that sins will die. [/FONT][/FONT]If this author[FONT=&quot]itative order cannot be [FONT=&quot]stopp[/FONT]ed, no man will enter the kingdom. [/FONT][/FONT][/FONT]

[FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot]No -it can't be voided. It is foreordained that such will take place. It's cut in stone.

And, in case you hadn't notice Nicodemus, all who sin do die.

Fortunately God has made a few other decrees along the way concerning much need salvation because of those deaths. There's a small thing called a new creation.
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"Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Do not be amazed that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’" (John 3:5-7J

"even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved). (Ephesians 2:5)

".........“With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.” (Matthew 19:26)

There is a bit of a mystery in these things. Of course some folks don't believe that things like mysteries can exist in God's word.

 

[EmSw]

There is a bit of a mystery in these things. Of course some folks don't believe that things like mysteries can exist in God's word.

To make foundational doctrines out of mysteries is not wise.

 

[Marvin Knox]

[FONT=&quot]Marvin said before, “How that leaves men with true wills and how they are not robots as it were is a question worth considering and I'm sure we'll get to that question as we go along.”[/FONT]
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FreeGrace said, “Well, we're here NOW with it.” [/FONT]
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I agree that the time to talk about man’s will coinciding with God’s will is probably NOW. If you’ll give me a little space on these back and forths, I’ll lay a couple of concepts out so we can talk about them.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Two quick thoughts if I may to make sure everyone sees where I come from in this. [/FONT]
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1st[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
I’d like to say that if God were to somehow visit us here on the forum and give us permission to set aside all inflammatory words like election, reprobation, predestination, chosen, and other Calvinist related words – I believe that any Bible believing Christian would have to invent words like those to sum up what the Bible teaches about salvation adequately. [/FONT]
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Think of it like the word “trinity” for instance. We believe it is a teaching of scripture for sure. We use it so that we have a way of expressing in a short way a series of truths that we have adopted from scripture. We do it so that we don’t have to state entire paragraphs and proof texts every single time we want to discuss the subject.[/FONT]
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What I’ve been saying all along is that these are inescapable truths in scripture. That is true even if we can’t prove one of them from one particular iron clad scripture reference. [/FONT]
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I believe that the reason people who deny some of the RT teachings can’t see this truth about those “Calvinist” words is because they have conveniently jettisoned at least a couple of very basic doctrines to keep from it. [/FONT]
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I intend to tackle a couple of those basic doctrines now. That’s where I’m headed anyway. We’ll see if I can get there. It’s summer and like everyone else, I suppose, I have other interests. I also hate to sit and type. [/FONT]
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2nd[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
My position on the sovereignty of God is admittedly even more extreme that most of my Calvinist friends are comfortable with. I mean and stress absolute sovereignty. Many Calvinists use terms like “passed them by and left them to do as their corrupted will dictates to them” or God [/FONT][FONT=&amp]“[/FONT][FONT=&quot]allowed[/FONT][FONT=&amp]”[/FONT][FONT=&quot] this or that or some such things. I probably say things like that myself occasionally just to stay away from inflammatory words like “God caused their sin”. [/FONT]
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But underlying those moderating words is the conviction that even sinful actions are ordained of God to come to past exactly as they come to past. They are predetermined by God or they would not happen. Again -that goes for sinful acts as well as good acts. [/FONT]
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So don’t count my position as being representative of everyone who believes in election or even sovereignty. This is the way I see things from scripture. [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]My positions have admittedly been influenced a lot by RT writers and lecturers. But I vary somewhat from even the most famous of RT teachers when I want to. I am not nor will I ever be governed exclusively by a certain theological camp’s dogmatism. As a result I find myself to be a rather odd mixture of supposed Arminian and free will concepts peppered in with my generally “Calvinist” leanings.[/FONT]

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****[/FONT][FONT=&quot] I may well make some of my posts to no one in particular since I am getting shot at from at least 3 different persons. It makes it difficult to keep up with who is who. I take it that all will likely be reading in on these if they care about the issues. [/FONT]
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Of course that makes it difficult for you to come back on the little points. That’s a good thing from my point of view. Some people's methods are to take the other person down a rabbit trail on some small point and exchange witticisms for several posts each.. That’s not my thing. If you can play my way we can play. There is a good side. You can likely have your say to your heart's content and not get much rebuttal.

People can read our posts and make up their mind who is and who is not off the mark..

For those who can’t stand lectures – my limited time to respond may not be such a good thing. Someone may well tune me out because of this limited time situation. If that happens - so be it. Your loss IMO.

I have to cut back on my computer time and still get my points across. That may mean perhaps a day or so between posts. I can look any comments over before my posts and try to address any concerns in the next. I just may not be able to address many in return posts to each statement. [/FONT]

After I lay out a big point concerning where we are now I'll settle in for some back and forths. That should just take a few posts. Probably I’ll flesh out one of those “big points” within a few days.

 

[Marvin Knox]

To make foundational doctrines out of mysteries is not wise.

Like being born again?

 

[EmSw]

[FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot]No -it can't be voided. It is foreordained that such will take place. It's cut in stone.

And, in case you hadn't notice Nicodemus, all who sin do die.

Fortunately God has made a few other decrees along the way concerning much need salvation because of those deaths. There's a small thing called a new creation. [/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT]

First, you tell me God's decree can't be voided, then turn around and tell me it can.
Here's a decree from Ezekiel:
Cast away from you all your transgressions which you have committed and make yourselves a new heart and a new spirit!

If this decree was foreordained from the foundation of the world, why is this decree not followed by some? Can man choose what decree of God he wants to follow and just ignore others?

"Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Do not be amazed that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’" (John 3:5-7J

As Jesus said, do not be amazed I said you must be born again. Many are amazed by Ezekiel's passage on a new heart, or being born again.

"even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved). (Ephesians 2:5)

I think Free Grace has been saying this is speaking of regeneration for a while now, but has been rebuffed by some RT adherents.

".........“With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.” (Matthew 19:26)

Exactly Marvin, if man tried to cast away all his transgression alone, he would fail every time. But with God, it is possible.

There is a bit of a mystery in these things. Of course some folks don't believe that things like mysteries can exist in God's word.

Go to a doctor who has no clue about your illness (a mystery to him) and let him operate like he understands what he is doing.

If God's word is a mystery to man, then obviously man doesn't have a clue about what God is saying. And to make theological doctrines out of mysteries is neither wise nor intelligent.

 

[EmSw]

Like being born again?

Is it a mystery to you? Did not God expound on being born again in Ezekiel, so it does not remain a mystery to man?

 

[Marvin Knox]

I asked, "Like being born again?"

Is it a mystery to you? Did not God expound on being born again in Ezekiel, so it does not remain a mystery to man?

"Do not be amazed that I said to you, 'you must be born again'. The wind blows where it wishes and you hear the sound of it, but do not know where it comes from and where it is going; so is everyone who is born of the Spirit." (John 3:7-8)

I've got to stop this back and forth now like I said I was going to do. This is like dueling with unarmed man.

 

[EmSw]

I asked, "Like being born again?"

"Do not be amazed that I said to you, 'you must be born again'. The wind blows where it wishes and you hear the sound of it, but do not know where it comes from and where it is going; so is everyone who is born of the Spirit." (John 3:7-8)

Sure, just like being born again. But we have God's word to enlighten us concerning a new heart and new life, and it totally deals with sin in our heart.

Most people want to see this birth from an earthly, natural viewpoint. This is a spiritual birth; a new life from sin, iniquity, transgression, darkness, blindness, and death. A natural birth is not a new life from death, but the spiritual birth is.

You can't put new wine in old wineskins; just as you can't put a new life in an old sinful heart. Sin will destroy the new life. Sin must be removed first, and then God is able to put a new, regenerated heart within us.

How God deals with each man concerning the removal of sin, iniquity, and uncleanness is unique to each individual. You can see the change in man (you hear the sound of the wind), but do not know how the Lord is dealing with each man to bring him to the place to where he deals with his sin (where the wind comes from and where it is going). As man begins to hate sin and remove it from his heart, so is everyone born of the Spirit.

In John 6:63, Jesus said,
It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing; the words that I have spoken to you are spirit and are life.

It is His words which is the Spirit who gives life. You can only be born again through the living word as Peter says. How each man desires His word, to understand it, to obey it, is certainly unique to each of us.

Paul said this in Romans 8:13,
for if you are living according to the flesh, you must die; but if by the Spirit you are putting to death the deeds of the body, you will live.

This was written to Roman Christians; they could either live according to the flesh (sin dwelling in them) and die, or live by the Spirit (Jesus' words), and PUT TO DEATH THE DEEDS OF THE BODY, and live.

Why should man remove sins from his heart? Listen what Paul wrote to the Galatian Christians -
For the one who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption, but the one who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life (Galatians 6:8).

It is only those who sow to the Spirit (words of Jesus) that will reap eternal life. If sin remains in man's heart, he is sowing to the flesh and will reap corruption.

I've got to stop this back and forth now like I said I was going to do. This is like dueling with unarmed man.

I have two arms. I'm not unarmed.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I’d like to say that if God were to somehow visit us here on the forum and give us permission to set aside all inflammatory words like election, reprobation, predestination, chosen, and other Calvinist related words – I believe that any Bible believing Christian would have to invent words like those to sum up what the Bible teaches about salvation adequately.

I don't think these words, which are Biblical, are imflammatory.

2nd, My position on the sovereignty of God is admittedly even more extreme that most of my Calvinist friends are comfortable with. I mean and stress absolute sovereignty. Many Calvinists use terms like “passed them by and left them to do as their corrupted will dictates to them” or God [/FONT][FONT=&amp]“[/FONT][FONT=&quot]allowed[/FONT][FONT=&amp]”[/FONT][FONT=&quot] this or that or some such things. I probably say things like that myself occasionally just to stay away from inflammatory words like “God caused their sin”. [/QUOTE]
If you believe that God's sovereignty means that He caused their sin, then that is a blasphemous statement. No way around it. The Bible clearly states that God cannot even tempt one to sin. So there is no way He causes sin.

As a result I find myself to be a rather odd mixture of supposed Arminian and free will concepts peppered in with my generally “Calvinist” leanings.

Exactly what is meant by "free will concepts" given your statement above about God's "absolute sovereignty" which means He causes sin???

The story of Job clearly demonstrates that God did NOT determine, cause, or dictate WHAT Satan did to Job in 2 instances. He did give 1 limitation in each one, but what Satan did to Job was determined by Satan, not by God.

Your view is refuted by Scripture.

 

[Marvin Knox]

I don't think these words, which are Biblical, are imflammatory.

If you don't think they are imflammatory, just take an afternoon to read through the soteriology section of this forum.

I agree that God used the words. But He may well have placed them in scripture to be imflammatory. I believe that He puts many things in scripture exactly for that reason. It's a test you see?

"No doubt there have to be differences among you to show which of you have God's approval." 1 Corinthians 11:19

Exactly what is meant by "free will concepts"

First off - I'm trying very hard to include your group by name in my posts. It's a royal pain in the ***. But I do it because you have made such a point of protesting when you are called Arminians.

I don't know everything about how you differ from Arminians. But I'll bet that Arminians and Free Willies like yourself both differ with most "Calvinists" regarding limited atonement. So do I.

Hence my statement, "[FONT=&quot]I find myself to be a rather odd mixture of supposed Arminian and free will concepts peppered in with my generally “Calvinist” leanings.".[/FONT]

If you believe that God's sovereignty means that He caused their sin, then that is a blasphemous statement. No way around it. The Bible clearly states that God cannot even tempt one to sin. So there is no way He causes sin.

Here are a few things I have said in the past.
Marvin said previously,
[FONT=&quot]"I probably say things like that myself occasionally just to stay away from inflammatory words like “God caused their sin”.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]But underlying those moderating words is the conviction that even sinful actions are ordained of God to come to past exactly as they come to past. To me - saying that God ordained the crucifixion of Jesus for instance but He didn’t ordain the sinful act of crucifixion would be a true contradiction.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]“Cause” is a loaded word. That is why the WCF pointedly avoided using it and chose the language they chose. They acknowledged the existence of the mysteries. You do not..

That God ordained that evil take place and not be Himself evil for doing so is an apparent contradiction as I have said I believe it to be. The WCF’s way of saying that God did not “cause” it - seems to me to be the best way to handle it . [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]I’m acknowledging (me at least) that there is a mystery about how God can do these things and not be sinful Himself. I’m also acknowledging that it seems like puppetry and computer programming. There’s no disagreement concerning those problems being there with belief in total sovereignty. The difference between us is my willingness to let there be mystery.[/FONT]
God Himself determined what those actions would be in the first place and made sure they happened exactly that way. I see all the words and actions of men as being determined by God. They say and do them of their own will."

You obviously disagree with my position. But it is a position held by a great many God loving Christians.

You and I disagree and I have agreed to outline as best I can my position.

I plan to do so on one condition.

There is a forum rule against accusing anyone of heresy because of the position they are advocating. It may not be worded as such. But I think that goes for accusing someone of blasphemy because you find their position hard to agree with.

I will ask you this one time and one time only.

Please do not accuse me of blasphemy again.

And please do not attempt to explain again why you think my position blasphemous.

I don't want to hear another post on this matter unless it is to apologize without excuse.

Anything else and you can debate yourself or you can beat up on Hammster.

If you apologize or even if you just choose to let this matter lie - I will continue to post on this supject.

The ball is in your court.

 

[bling]

[FONT=&quot]I’m acknowledging (me at least) that there is a mystery about how God can do these things and not be sinful Himself. I’m also acknowledging that it seems like puppetry and computer programming. There’s no disagreement concerning those problems being there with belief in total sovereignty. The difference between us is my willingness to let there be mystery.[/FONT]

This “mystery” for you is different than the mystery Paul talks about.

The simple answer to your “mystery” is God allows man to have some free will, the same as God allowed satan to in a limited way exercise satan’s free will against Job.

God (like any of us) can realize what a wicked person will do in certain situations, but unlike us, God allow the wicked person to do those things, for the good that can happen as a result of this opportunity presented to free will individuals. The “reason” we cannot “allow” wickedness to happen if we can stop it, is because that wickedness is an opportunity for us to show, experience, provide and grow Godly type Love.

 

[DarylFawcett]

MOD HAT ON!!!!!

Another thread clean up was done, therefore, your post may now be missing. If the flaming, etc. continues, this thread may end up being permanently closed.

MOD HAT OFF!!!!!