Scripture Forbids The Use Of Any Ecumenical Creed

[Albion]

The first Nicene Creed erred as well in redefining the begottenness of the Son, and proclaiming Him to be begotten before all ages or worlds. He was begotten in time by the oath of the Father according to scripture.

Not Scripture. You may be thinking of some other writing that a few people think of as "scripture."

It also introduced the concept of one substance, but did not proclaim the holy Spirit to be a part of this substance - all made up anyway.

There are many Bible verses that affirm the oneness of God and the divinity and personality of both the Son and Holy Ghost. Other qualities of God may be up for discussion but not this.

 

[RevelationTestament]

Not Scripture. You may be thinking of some other writing that a few people think of as "scripture."

Well, in my book, Psalms, Hebrews, and Acts are scripture, and man-made creeds rehashing them are just that - man's opinion. But I can't stop you from not believing the word of God.
Psalms 2:7
7 I will declare the decree: the Lord hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee.
Hebrews 5:5
5 So also Christ glorified not himself to be made an high priest; but he that said unto him, Thou art my Son, to day have I begotten thee.
Acts 13:33
33 God hath fulfilled the same unto us their children, in that he hath raised up Jesus again; as it is also written in the second psalm, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee.

There are many Bible verses that affirm the oneness of God and the divinity and personality of both the Son and Holy Ghost. Other qualities of God may be up for discussion but not this.

The Father and Son are both YHWH Elohim, and are one Word, and one in spirit, but nowhere do the scriptures say they are one "substance." That is made up.
Cheers

 

[Tellastory]

Yeh, I've heard that theory before, but I don't want to wander off the subject here. Jesus did found a church, and we know that because he said so. Now the question becomes one of identifying it.

Well, in all respect, that is part of the topic just as this church you seem to be referring to as they are both part of a creed:

To counter your point of the one church, we have God addressing seven churches in Revelations and I do not see God referring those churches to get in line with the one church founded by Jesus.

Where does the Creed even discuss that matter, let along "introduce error?"

The Nicene creed of 381 A.D. introduce the error of giving the glory of the title of the Giver of Life to the Holy Spirit.

It also cites worshipping the Holy Spirit with the Father & the Son.

Those are two blatnat errors that God will be judging His House for as well as among other errors.

You think, I assume, that the Holy Spirit is only the Father's force or something like that?

Nope. Just citing the errors of the Nicene creed. Just because the Holy Spirit is God, that does not negate the will of the Father in how we are to come to Him in worship & that is by honouring the Son.

Of course, there are always going to be splinters and cults that are way out in religious no man's land with their ideas. But for purposes of this discussion, they would have to be set aside or else a single person with his own theory would cause us to say "no unity is possible." The question really doesn't contemplate some technical exception of that sort, nor should it.

There are to be no agreement with workers of iniquity; therefore creeds are out for they were ceated for the purpose of unifying the churches under those creeds. An ecumenical agreement with the churches is a false prophet that gathers grapes of thorns & figs of thistles as the Nicene creed of 381 A.D. has broadened the way in approaching God the Father in worship other than by way of the Son by including the Holy Spirit as another "Go To" Person coming to God the Father by and He is not.

 

[Tellastory]

The first Nicene Creed erred as well in redefining the begottenness of the Son, and proclaiming Him to be begotten before all ages or worlds. He was begotten in time by the oath of the Father according to scripture. It also introduced the concept of one substance, but did not proclaim the holy Spirit to be a part of of this substance - all made up anyway.

I do not know what scripture you are referring to other than His incarnation, but that does not mean He did not exist before that time.

John 1:1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 The same was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. 4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men. 5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not....10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not. 11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not. 12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: 13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. 14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

Begotten was used here in this reference but in context, Jesus existed before His incarnation because He is God.

Philippians 2:5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: 6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: 7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: 8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross. 9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: 10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; 11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. 12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. 13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

There is emphasis in believing that Jesus Christ is God as a form of obedience.

The thing I have against creeds is that it was meant to be ecumenical in uniting all the churches and thus there can be no agreement with churches steeped in iniquity that refuse to repent of it.

 

[Albion]

Well, in all respect, that is part of the topic just as this church you seem to be referring to as they are both part of a creed:

I appreciate the respect, but maybe I merely misunderstood you. When you wrote this, were you saying that Christ didn't intend to found a church in the usual sense (but by which I don't mean any particular denomination)? Maybe we actually do agree and I misinterpreted your point.

The baptism with the Holy Ghost that Jesus Christ gives for coming to & believing in Him is the only baptism that matters in being a member of His church, the body of believers.

To counter your point of the one church, we have God addressing seven churches in Revelations and I do not see God referring those churches to get in line with the one church founded by Jesus.

They are not seven competing religions, however. To refer to these seven is to refer only to local examples of Christ's church.

The Nicene creed of 381 A.D. introduce the error of giving the glory of the title of the Giver of Life to the Holy Spirit.

Oh well, I guess that's a matter of opinion. From what Scripture says of the Holy Ghost, such wording seems more than appropriate.

It also cites worshipping the Holy Spirit with the Father & the Son.

As well it should--again for Scriptural reasons. You are correct that, previously, there was no consensus among Christians on how to view the Holy Spirit.

Those are two blatnat errors that God will be judging His House for as well as among other errors.

I don't think either of those is true, but I wouldn't try to prevent you from worrying about them if you choose.

One more thing...the topic is supposed to be about the Scriptures supposedly prohibiting the use of any Ecumenical Creed. I can imagine saying that the Nicene Creed is defective--as you have--but not that Scripture forbids the writing of any Ecumenical Creed.

 

[Albion]

Well, in my book, Psalms, Hebrews, and Acts are scripture, and man-made creeds rehashing them are just that - man's opinion.

That's what I understood to be the case.

The Father and Son are both YHWH Elohim

The Father, Son, and the Holy Ghost.

and are one Word

Well, my personal conviction is to go with the Bible on that, and in John 1 it clearly identifies the Word as the Son, not all the persons of the Trinity.

 

[Tellastory]

I appreciate the respect, but maybe I merely misunderstood you. When you wrote this, were you saying that Christ didn't intend to found a church in the usual sense (but by which I don't mean any particular denomination)? Maybe we actually do agree and I misinterpreted your point.

There is a church, the body of believers: just not any denomenation that can boast of being the true church since we are not here to preach ourselves; therefore the church must decrease so that He may increase.

They are not seven competing religions, however. To refer to these seven is to refer only to local examples of Christ's church.

I was not referring to them as different religions of christianity but they are of the one body of believers as they are all at a different stage in their walk with the Lord: and yet nowhere in Revelations was a one true church was referred to as to be identified with when our identity rests on faith in Jesus Christ.

Oh well, I guess that's a matter of opinion. From what Scripture says of the Holy Ghost, such wording seems more than appropriate.

As well it should--again for Scriptural reasons. You are correct that, previously, there was no consensus among Christians on how to view the Holy Spirit.

Scripture is to testify of Jesus Christ so that sinners as well as saved believers can come to God the Father by way of the Son ( John 5:39-40 ). The Holy Spirit will not speak of Himself ( John 16:13 ) but testify of the Son ( John 15:26 ) as we are led by the Spirit to do the same as in not speak of the Holy Spirit to seek the glory of the Holy Spirit but of the Son in seeking the glory of the Son and by the Son, glorify God the Father ( John 15:27 ) for as the Holy Spirit seek to glorify the Son ( John 16:14 ) then how can we be led by the Spirit in any other way than to glorify the Son & by Him, God the Father as that is the mind of Christ we are to have ( Philippians 2:5-13 )

I don't think either of those is true, but I wouldn't try to prevent you from worrying about them if you choose.

John 5:22-23 cites a standard of judgment over every believer and that is the only way to honour God the Father is by honouring the Son which is exactly what the Holy Spirit in us is sent to lead us to do. The moment you stop honouring the Son in wqorship, you are no longer honouring God the Father.

Scripture lays it all out on how God is glorified in the Son ( John 13:31-32 ) Since God the Father is no longer confined to the temple in Jerusalem, the only way to come to God the Father is by way of the Son in fellowship ( 1 Corinthians 1:9 ; 2:2 ) and worship ( John 14:6-7 ) and prayer ( John 14:13-14 & 1 Timothy 2:5 & Hebrews 4:12-16 )

One more thing...the topic is supposed to be about the Scriptures supposedly prohibiting the use of any Ecumenical Creed. I can imagine saying that the Nicene Creed is defective--as you have--but not that Scripture forbids the writing of any Ecumenical Creed.

2 Corinthians 6:14 Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness? 15 And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel? 16 And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people. 17 Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you. 18 And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty.

Proverbs 11:21Though hand join in hand, the wicked shall not be unpunished: but the seed of the righteous shall be delivered.

John 7:7The world cannot hate you; but me it hateth, because I testify of it, that the works thereof are evil.

John 15:19 If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.

1 Corinthians 5:9 I wrote unto you in an epistle not to company with fornicators: 10 Yet not altogether with the fornicators of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or with idolaters; for then must ye needs go out of the world. 11 But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolator, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat. 12 For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? do not ye judge them that are within? 13 But them that are without God judgeth. Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person.

There can be no agreement nor creed that is being shared by brothers & sisters in iniquity which is why no creed was created nor taught by the actual apostles.

 

[Albion]

There is a church, the body of believers: just not any denomenation that can boast of being the true church

Yes, I agree with that. It is also true, though, that Christ explicitly founded it.

can be no agreement nor creed that is being shared by brothers & sisters in iniquity which is why no creed was created nor taught by the actual apostles.

Still doesn't say anything about later Christians agreeing on doctrine & creating a Creedal statement.

 

[RevelationTestament]

Yes, I agree with that. It is also true, though, that Christ explicitly founded it.


Still doesn't say anything about later Christians agreeing on doctrine & creating a Creedal statement.

8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,

10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

 

[RevelationTestament]

That's what I understood to be the case.


The Father, Son, and the Holy Ghost.


Well, my personal conviction is to go with the Bible on that, and in John 1 it clearly identifies the Word as the Son, not all the persons of the Trinity.

The Father is YHWH, and YHWH is the word.

Where do the scriptures say the Holy Spirit is YHWH?

 

[Albion]

The Father is YHWH, and YHWH is the word.

The Father is YHWH, among other names, and the Son is the Word. That's shown to us in both John's Gospel and the Book of Revelation.

Where do the scriptures say the Holy Spirit is YHWH?

The Holy Spirit is not the Father.

 

[RevelationTestament]

I do not know what scripture you are referring to other than His incarnation, but that does not mean He did not exist before that time.

Hebrews 7:28
28 For the law maketh men high priests which have infirmity; but the word of the oath, which was since the law, maketh the Son, who is consecrated for evermore.
I said nothing about Him not existing to create the world.
Hebrews 1:5
5 For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?
His office as Son is a calling.
Ephesians 1:18
18 The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints,

John 1:1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 The same was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. 4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men. 5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not....10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not. 11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not. 12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: 13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. 14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

Begotten was used here in this reference but in context, Jesus existed before His incarnation because He is God.

Philippians 2:5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: 6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: 7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: 8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross. 9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: 10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; 11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. 12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. 13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

There is emphasis in believing that Jesus Christ is God as a form of obedience.

The thing I have against creeds is that it was meant to be ecumenical in uniting all the churches and thus there can be no agreement with churches steeped in iniquity that refuse to repent of it.

No need for this statement.

 

[RevelationTestament]

The Father is YHWH, among other names, and the Son is the Word. That's shown to us in both John's Gospel and the Book of Revelation.

YHWH is the Word. Therefore, both the Father and the Son are the Word.

The Holy Spirit is not the Father.

Is He YHWH? You are the one who insisted on including the Holy Spirit when I said "The Father and Son are both YHWH Elohim."

 

[Albion]

8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,

10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

Still nothing that suggests that Scripture forbids believers to create a creedal statement.

 

[Albion]

YHWH is the Word. Therefore, both the Father and the Son are the Word.

I've explained why we know that the Word is Christ, the Son. I see nothing here that challenges the Bible on that point.

 

[RevelationTestament]

Still nothing that suggests that Scripture forbids believers to create a creedal statement.

I don't think He forbade it. He used it to send the delusion He promised. The creeds are a complete misunderstanding of both Christ and Heavenly Father. The people did not believe the truth Christ brought, and showed - the way to the holiest of all.

 

[RevelationTestament]

I've explained why we know that the Word is Christ, the Son. I see nothing here that challenges the Bible on that point.

Where does the Bible say the Holy Spirit was the word or was YHWH?

 

[Albion]

I don't think He forbade it.

That's what I would say.

 

[BelCantoBaptist]

Where does the Bible say the Holy Spirit was the word or was YHWH?

You're attacking a strawman. The Father is not the Spirit or the Son (Word). Nor did DerAlter say that. The Spirit is not the Son nor the Father. Nor did DerAlter say that either. The Son (Word) is not the Spirit nor the Father. But all are coequal, coeternal etc.

 

[RevelationTestament]

You're attacking a strawman. The Father is not the Spirit or the Son (Word). Nor did DerAlter say that. The Spirit is not the Son nor the Father. Nor did DerAlter say that either. The Son (Word) is not the Spirit nor the Father. But all are coequal, coeternal etc.

I'm not "attacking" anything. I asked a question. And I wasn't responding to derAlter but to Albion. Do you know the answer? Is the Holy Spirit YHWH?