Why dont SDA's and Sabbath keepers also keep the Feast Days of Leviticus 23 too???

[VictorC]

If I choose to "air my dirty laundry", so what??--She had a long list of a terrible 22 years as an SDA so I told her a little of mine--I was out of the church for over 25 years because of it. If dirty laundry is unpleasant to you---why are you asking for more??

I don't think Larry is female.
anyway...
Where I was going is to identify a need for counselling, and that falls outside the purview of a discussion forum. This is a reason it is inappropriate to display your laundry where it doesn't belong.

 

[mmksparbud]

You simply cannot read Colossians 2:14-17 that way. SDA Theologians have been caught with their pants down around their ankles on that one. Read Samuele Bacchiochi and later SDA Sabbath Bible experts as they hilariously grapple with a MASSIVE problem that was created by Ellen White's argument that only the Ceremonial law was "nailed to the cross." The church has essentially reversed itself on that issue, in essence, their own Bible scholars and theologians, by declaring that Ellen White was absolutely wrong about the cross ending the ceremonial laws and the other Sabbaths and Feast days, have branded her as a "false prophet."

It is amazing if they are not teaching you this current "Present Truth." You shouldn't have any difficulty accepting the "Present Truth," since Adventists have had many different "Present Truths" that were eventually abandoned and replaced.

If you are not being taught that all of the ceremonial laws, the monthly and yearly Sabbaths, the Jewish feasts and Temple ceremonies are still in effect, God help the SDA church. Since their own theologians have created the case for all of that from the Bible. If the church is not teaching you to do what their own Bible Scholars have found, then they are simply lying to you.

You must not be current on Adventist trends, because the Church Bible scholars have published at LEAST two major books indicating that ALL of the Feast Days and Old Testament ceremonies apply.

Big move going on with Adventist "Feast Keepers." They are the courageous and honest ones. You have to admire them. They are willing to follow the truth wherever it leads. They've realized they have to get rid of St. Paul and eliminate his Epistles and arguments out of the New Testament, since it is a HUGE roadblock where the Adventist movement needs to go next. The honest Adventists will eventually end up like Messianic Jews, who also have forthrightly rejected the writings of the Apostle Paul and branded him as a "false Apostle." Adventist Synagogues are starting to pop up where ALL of the Jewish ceremonies and rituals are being practiced.

Where have you been?

You need to get up to speed on what is happening in your own church. You don't want to go ANOTHER 150 years of allowing rank error. By not following all of the Old Testament ceremonies and rituals and all of the Sabbaths and Feast Days, it seems like no Adventist was saved during the first 150 years of the Church's life.

"For SDAs--Christ is called "The Word"--He is the word of God--and nobody would know that if there had been no bible--God has given us the Bible

2Ti 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

"It is through the bible that we learn of God, the Holy Spirit, Jesus Christ, our creation, our end, the history of Gods leading, the price Christ paid to save us from sin, everything we need is in there---without it, noone has any basis for their beliefs."

The Church went 400 years before the Bible was even put together, and another 1400 years before the average person could afford to own one. And don't tell me that Ellen White figured out how the existing churches were wrong from her reading of the Bible. She said a beautiful young man that told her where to go in her visions. Which brings up another problem: She had visions and a beautiful young man sitting on her shoulder. You were not allowed to participate in those visions. You only have a Bible. And from the Bible, Adventist theologians have demolished every single major Church doctrine.

Adventist Bible scholars have thoroughly refuted and discredited what the beautiful young man told Ellen White. Adventist theologians and Bible scholars are the worst enemy the Seventh Day Adventist Church has ever contended with. From the Bible, they have decisively proved that Ellen White was just flat wrong on the Investigative Judgment; the Church's interpretation and use of Daniel 8:14; her views on the Old Testament ceremonies and Sabbaths; and most of all her "Prophetic" legitimacy.

Again, what rock have you been hiding under?

Obviously we are not under the same rock--Mine is Christ--and you can not read Hebrews without seeing clearly that Christs blood is now the real Sacrificial Lamb--and no more animal blood is to be shed for only Christs blood cleanses us--the whole entire book of Hebrews proclaims this and Christ our High Priest after the order of Melchizedek--and Paul wrote Hebrews. He makes it clear. No one in the church is getting rid of Paul. It is the world that wants to ignore the whole book of Hebrews except for some verses that they will quote out of context. In Hebrews Paul explains it all very clearly so maybe you should read it, all of it. We love Paul.

There is no upheavel going on. Only in the hearts of those who wish there were one. I know when the bible came out--up until then the "Church" held all people captive to their deceptions and only the clergy were allowed to have access to the bible--but there were always those who listened to God and spread the truth, for which alot of them where burned at the stake. Not even kings could go against the "church"--the dark ages--very dark-- with people suffering from being kept from the light. The clergy knew only too well that once the word got out to all--they would loose their grip on most people. Power over people, and their money, was the rule. Anyone other than clergy who read the scriptures were burned. Many of the clergy were forced to secretly pass on what the word really said, and many of the people were not able to read and at the mercy of those who could. They (the church)tried desperately to wipe out the Waldensis--there were many others all over Europe--even in Holland where many died for their biblical believes.
I've known lots of scholars--men and women who were college proffesors
and there was no upheavel. There were a couple of guys who did write a bunch of stuff that was against the church, and there have been the wierdos--like David Koresh--those who have their own agenda and wish for power. I can't remember the names of the 2 that where talked about when I first came back to God--they had written some stuff against the sanctuary service, but that was about 25 years ago and both of them came back after about 10 years away and apologized--I read the letter one of them wrote--sorry for my bad memory--He used to make a bunch of videos and the old couple I took care of were very much impressed with him--All I could see was one very vain puppy, but they wouldn't hear anything against him, until he turned and started to try and get his own group going saying some of the things you've stated--they were shocked, I wasn't. When he came back he admitted he wanted to form his own group and his vanity had controlled him for a while and the money he was getting by talking people into giving him their tithes instead of to the church was what really motivated him. He was accepted back.

And this thing about a beautiful young man--I did a word search on her wrttings--looked up beautiful young man--there were 34 hits on it. All were dealing with the angel that was sitting at the sepelchure after Christs resurrection, there were many about Satan posing as a beautiful young man when he tempts people and when he tempted Christ, there were the ones about Goliath seeing this beautiful young lad coming against him and he laughed, there was a letter written by a man who had not been supportive of her and he wrote something about seeing a beautiful young man leading him somewhere in a dream--couldn't find anything about a vision of a beautiful young man on her shoulder though.

 

[mmksparbud]

I don't think Larry is female.
anyway...
Where I was going is to identify a need for counselling, and that falls outside the purview of a discussion forum. This is a reason it is inappropriate to display your laundry where it doesn't belong.

Then why were you asking for more??--My counselor has been Christ and my dirty laundry has been of great help to many who have gone through much the same and I've been thanked for being open with them--Christ cleanses the dirt--or didn't you know??
Sorry about refering to Larry as female!

 

[VictorC]

Then why were you asking for more??--My counselor has been Christ and my dirty laundry has been of great help to many who have gone through much the same and I've been thanked for being open with them--Christ cleanses the dirt--or didn't you know??
Sorry about refering to Larry as female!

It is evident that a commandment prohibiting murder didn't stop you from multiple violations. Your testimony is contradictory, in this post as well as others you've been called out on.

 

[LarryP2]

you can not read Hebrews without seeing clearly that Christs blood is now the real Sacrificial Lamb--and no more animal blood is to be shed for only Christs blood cleanses us--the whole entire book of Hebrews proclaims this and Christ our High Priest after the order of Melchizedek--and Paul wrote Hebrews.

I certainly agree with you on Hebrews. However, you cannot hold that view of Hebrews and the Investigative Judgment simultaneously. You did not catch the gist of my argument: Your own theologian, Samuele Bacchiochi, by interpreting Colossians 2:14-17 the way he did, requires bringing back ALL of the Old Testament ceremonies and Rituals.
http://www.truthorfables.com/LYING FOR GOD.pdf

Another Adventist scholar who followed up on that came to the same conclusion. You need to read Bacchiochi, so that you can understand what your church has been quietly teaching and the Adventist Feast Keeper movement is following. Deal with it. You need to get busy and read your Bible and compare this:
http://www.ellenwhiteexposed.com/1844rc.htm

With what your Church says the Bible says.

No one in the church is getting rid of Paul. It is the world that wants to ignore the whole book of Hebrews except for some verses that they will quote out of context. In Hebrews Paul explains it all very clearly so maybe you should read it, all of it. We love Paul.

Your own Adventist theologians have been talking quietly for years about getting rid of the Apostle Paul. You can believe in Ellen White or you can believe in the Apostle Paul. Not both. Choose wisely. You need to catch up on your reading:
http://www.andrews.edu/library/car/cardigital/Periodicals/Truth_Or_Fables/2011/LYING FOR GOD.pdf

I've known lots of scholars--men and women who were college proffesors
and there was no upheavel. There were a couple of guys who did write a bunch of stuff that was against the church, and there have been the wierdos--like David Koresh--those who have their own agenda and wish for power. I can't remember the names of the 2 that where talked about when I first came back to God--they had written some stuff against the sanctuary service, but that was about 25 years ago and both of them came back after about 10 years away and apologized--I read the letter one of them wrote--sorry for my bad memory--He used to make a bunch of videos and the old couple I took care of were very much impressed with him--All I could see was one very vain puppy, but they wouldn't hear anything against him, until he turned and started to try and get his own group going saying some of the things you've stated--they were shocked, I wasn't. When he came back he admitted he wanted to form his own group and his vanity had controlled him for a while and the money he was getting by talking people into giving him their tithes instead of to the church was what really motivated him. He was accepted back.

Get on the internet. Google "Desmond Ford" "Walter Rhea" "Dale Ratzlaff" and "Raymond Contrell," all ex-SDAs that support what I have been saying. NONE of them are saying what you claim. You obviously are WAY behind the curve. Because of the internet, the SDA church is losing 300,000 people a year, as they find out about the truth of their church and its history and what the Bible says.\
http://www.goodnewsunlimited.org/bioford.cfm
http://www.exadventist.com/home/articles/sabbatarian/tabid/452/default.aspx
http://www.ellenwhiteexposed.com/egw17.htm
http://www.ellenwhiteexposed.com/1844rc.htm

Just read their stuff. Compare what they say with what your Bible says, NOT what the Seventh Day Adventists TELL you your Bible says.

And this thing about a beautiful young man--I did a word search on her wrttings--looked up beautiful young man--there were 34 hits on it. All were dealing with the angel that was sitting at the sepelchure after Christs resurrection, there were many about Satan posing as a beautiful young man when he tempts people and when he tempted Christ, there were the ones about Goliath seeing this beautiful young lad coming against him and he laughed, there was a letter written by a man who had not been supportive of her and he wrote something about seeing a beautiful young man leading him somewhere in a dream--couldn't find anything about a vision of a beautiful young man on her shoulder though.

"In 1875, Ellen White wrote about "a young man" who had appeared to her for 26 years in her "visions" and "dreams".

"The following night I dreamed that a young man of noble appearance came into the room where I was, immediately after I had been speaking. This same person has appeared before me in important dreams to instruct me from time to time during the past twenty-six years." (Signs of the Times, Nov. 11, 1875; Counsels on Health, p. 465. Emphasis supplied.)
.....
"Based on this sensational newspaper article, Ellen White had a "vision" in which a sheet of paper was presented to her, presumably by the "young man". She sent this "vision" and a testimony to Dr. Kellogg in America."
http://ellenwhiteexposed.com/kaspersen/egw_eng3.htm

You obviously haven't done your homework. Your entire religion is based on the truthfulness, or lack thereof, of Ellen White's young male spirit guide. Good luck on that!

 

[SAAN]

Why??---Christs death did away with animal sacrifices--keeping those requires animal sacrifices--Christs blood is the new covenant and all those laws requiring animal sacrfices have been done away with--the 10 commandments as written by the hand of God do not require animal blood---We keep answering the question, but you keep asking the same question---boring!

So did God do away with the Sabbath as well too since it also required offerings?

Numbers 28:9-10

New King James Version (NKJV)

Sabbath Offerings

9 ‘And on the Sabbath day two lambs in their first year, without blemish, and two-tenths of an ephah of fine flour as a grain offering, mixed with oil, with its drink offering— 10 this is the burnt offering for every Sabbath, besides the regular burnt offering with its drink offering.

 

[mmksparbud]

It is evident that a commandment prohibiting murder didn't stop you from multiple violations. Your testimony is contradictory, in this post as well as others you've been called out on.

You are truly wearing thin--I had no voice in either the creating or in the "murder" of them. At 12, having been under my fathers evil since 8 I was not allowed to say no--and I had no love for God at all then--no contradiction. Like the thief on the cross--when I came back to God he forgave all my dirty laundry. I say came back, but I was never with Him, I always believed He existed and was very real--I just basically hated Him for what I was forced to endure--I didn't give up my anger at Him and the church until I was 35. You do not have the right to call me a murderer when God Himself has forgiven--not a very kind, loving, nor Christian attitude, but expected. I've had to comfort and explain God's forgiveness to many like me who had faced just this type of Christianity.

 

[mmksparbud]

I certainly agree with you on Hebrews. However, you cannot hold that view of Hebrews and the Investigative Judgment simultaneously. You did not catch the gist of my argument: Your own theologian, Samuele Bacchiochi, by interpreting Colossians 2:14-17 the way he did, requires bringing back ALL of the Old Testament ceremonies and Rituals.
http://www.truthorfables.com/LYING%20FOR%20GOD.pdf

Another Adventist scholar who followed up on that came to the same conclusion. You need to read Bacchiochi, so that you can understand what your church has been quietly teaching and the Adventist Feast Keeper movement is following. Deal with it. You need to get busy and read your Bible and compare this:
THE "SANCTUARY DOCTRINE" – ASSET OR LIABILITY

With what your Church says the Bible says.



Your own Adventist theologians have been talking quietly for years about getting rid of the Apostle Paul. You can believe in Ellen White or you can believe in the Apostle Paul. Not both. Choose wisely. You need to catch up on your reading:
http://www.andrews.edu/library/car/cardigital/Periodicals/Truth_Or_Fables/2011/LYING FOR GOD.pdf



Get on the internet. Google "Desmond Ford" "Walter Rhea" "Dale Ratzlaff" and "Raymond Contrell," all ex-SDAs that support what I have been saying. NONE of them are saying what you claim. You obviously are WAY behind the curve. Because of the internet, the SDA church is losing 300,000 people a year, as they find out about the truth of their church and its history and what the Bible says.\
Good News Unlimited
Sabbatarianism Re-Examined - What You Should Know
The White Lie by Walter Rea
THE "SANCTUARY DOCTRINE" – ASSET OR LIABILITY

Just read their stuff. Compare what they say with what your Bible says, NOT what the Seventh Day Adventists TELL you your Bible says.



"In 1875, Ellen White wrote about "a young man" who had appeared to her for 26 years in her "visions" and "dreams".

"The following night I dreamed that a young man of noble appearance came into the room where I was, immediately after I had been speaking. This same person has appeared before me in important dreams to instruct me from time to time during the past twenty-six years." (Signs of the Times, Nov. 11, 1875; Counsels on Health, p. 465. Emphasis supplied.)
.....
"Based on this sensational newspaper article, Ellen White had a "vision" in which a sheet of paper was presented to her, presumably by the "young man". She sent this "vision" and a testimony to Dr. Kellogg in America."
Ellen G. White -- The Myth and the Truth, by Asumnd Kaspersen, 1999

You obviously haven't done your homework. Your entire religion is based on the truthfulness, or lack thereof, of Ellen White's young male spirit guide. Good luck on that!

This is the article you are refering too--I could not find it under your "beautiful young man" label, so I looked up Counsels on Health, thank you for providing that.
Counsels on Health, Page 465

Hand Out the Literature

[The Signs of the Times, November 11, 1875.]
Several speakers had addressed large and attentive congregations at the camp meeting at Rome, N.Y., on First day, September 12, 1875. The following night I dreamed that a young man of noble appearance came into the room where I was, immediately after I had been speaking. This same person has appeared before me in important dreams to instruct me from time to time during the past twenty-six years. Said he: You have called the attention of the people to important subjects, which, to a large number, are strange and new. To some they are intensely interesting. The laborers in word and doctrine have done what they could in presenting the truth, which has raised inquiry in minds and awakened an interest. But unless there is a more thorough effort made to fasten these impressions upon minds, your efforts now made will prove nearly fruitless. Satan has many attractions ready to divert the mind, and the cares of this life and the deceitfulness of riches all combine to choke the seed of truth sown in the heart, and in most cases it bears no fruit.
In every effort such as you are now making, much more good would result from your labors if you had appropriate reading matter ready for circulation. Tracts upon the important points of truth for the present time should be handed out freely to all who will accept them, without money and without price, which might eventually result in a hundredfold return to the treasury. You are to sow beside all waters.
The press is a powerful means to move the minds and hearts of the people.

«Back «Prev. Pub. «Ch «Pg Pg» Ch» Next Pub.» Forward»


This "young man of noble appearance"--came to her in dreams. There was no beautiful young man sitting on her shoulder in visions.

I have read the stuff above--I am fully informed and if you go to
goodnewsunlimited.org

you will find it is the magazine that Desmond Ford puts out. He is still an SDA--even though he was expelled from the church--He still believes in the sabbath and the rest of the 10 commandments and is a vegetarian. And he flatly states that he feels the SDA church was God ordained. This is just a small paragraph of one of his articles titled Clarifying the Covenants:

Daniel 9:26 says the Messiah's death would confirm or seal (ratify) the covenant - the same covenant mentioned in verse 4 and in 11:22 - the covenant of Sinai, which itself was identical with the Abrahamic covenant.
​

A close study of the covenants solves this issue also. Galatians 3:15 and Hebrews 9:16, 17 stress that nothing can be added to a covenant after the sacrificial death which seals it. Thus Sunday was three days too late to become part of the New Covenant. For this reason also, baptism was included by Christ's own example prior to Calvary.

In the same article is this:

Obedience to the Nine
In gospel ranks at the present time, there are some of our friends (we do not use that term loosely), offering an explanation of the covenants that, in practical terms, leads to obedience to nine commandments of the Decalogue, but not to that one which is central, the longest, and solely prefaced by "remember."
It is an exaggeration to say that such are nine-tenths under law and one tenth under grace, but it's an understandable criticism
He, as everyone knows--opposed to the Investigative Judgement and he goes into detail of why he believes that.


​

 

[BobRyan]

-I just basically hated Him for what I was forced to endure--I didn't give up my anger at Him and the church until I was 35. You do not have the right to call me a murderer when God Himself has forgiven--not a very kind, loving, nor Christian attitude, but expected. I've had to comfort and explain God's forgiveness to many like me who had faced just this type of Christianity.

Thank you for your willingness to share your testimony.

As you may have noticed - those at war with the law of God will resort to any level of accusation against those who do choose to honor God's TEN commandments.

To be at war against God's law in an unrepentant fashion is a serious matter. To have a spirit of repentance and conviction, reformation and revival - is to have the heart of the saved saint.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

So did God do away with the Sabbath as well too since it also required offerings?

Numbers 28:9-10

.

The worship of God in the OT called for offerings and sacrifices - God did note "do away with the worship of God" when offerings and sacrifices ended.

Worship towards God in Gen 2:1-3 existed before animal sacrifice as did His Seventh day - memorial of creation - where Ex 20:11 states that the Gen 2:1-3 facts "Alone" make it binding on all mankind.

interesting how even the following "pro-sunday" sources "notice" this detail.

 

[LarryP2]

"As you may have noticed - those at war with the law of God will resort to any level of accusation against those who do choose to honor God's TEN commandments."

What an absurd, parochial statement. When I read stuff like that, I truly despair that Adventists will ever understand the point of Christianity.

Adventists "choose to honor God's TEN commandments" Is it just me, or does anybody else notice that Adventists, rarely, if ever discuss Christ's Great Commandments? 99.9999999999999999 percent of the time, it is the Old Testament law they discuss. The rest of the time, they give only grudging lip service to Christ's Commandments.

Christianity chooses to honor God by having faith in his Resurrection, and allowing the Holy Spirit to write Christ's Great Commandments on their heart. That has never changed. Adventism quite plainly teaches "another Gospel."

Night and day difference.

I will begin with the following scripture, and then segue into Paul's most important speech ever:

1 Corinthians 9:20-22] - “Therefore became I to the Jews as a Jew, that Jews I might win; to those who were under the Law as under law, not being myself under the Law, that those who were under the Law I might win. To those who were without the Law as without law, not being without law to God but lawfully subject to Christ that I might win those who were without law. I became to the weak, weak, that the weak I might win: -to all men have I become all things that by all means some I might save.”

In Paul's Mars Hill Speech, no mention of the Ten Commandments was recorded by either the Biblical writers, nor by the Greeks who were there. In fact, at Mars Hill, Paul absolutely rejected his entire Hebrew background and spent much of his speech discussing the GREEK gods and the poets who lionized them. THAT was where Christianity became a separate and distinct religion from Judaism. Paul plainly talked and acted like a Greek, and right then and there, Christianity embraced pagan gods as the antecedent for Christ and rejected any resemblance to the Hebrew God of the Old Testament. Paul's Mars Hill speech is laced with references to Zeuss. Not the God of the Old Testament. You cannot find a more clear, more powerful rejection of the Old Testament Law that Paul gave on Mars Hill. Adventists must think Zeuss also ordered the keeping of the Sabbaths!
Versatility of Paul on Mars Hill - “All Things to All Men”

On Mars Hill, Christianity and Judaism were divorced.

Honest Adventists must follow the logic through and reject Paul as a false Apostle, reject the Divinity of Christ, Reject the Trinity, build Adventist synogogues, and resume all of the yearly and monthly Sabbaths and Feast days. This is Adventism's latest mutant evolution. Serious Adventists can no longer honestly follow only the Old Testament law that tickled Ellen White's fancy, or gave her a pleasant gut feeling. The Feast Keepers are formulating objective criteria and have realized that NONE of the Old Testament law is obsolete. They are the only Adventists living their own principles.

Lay-Adventists are mostly not aware of the "Adventist Feast Keeper" movement and the books of the two top Adventist theologians that have virtually mandated this rejection of historic Adventist Sabbath doctrine, wherein only the Americanized 7th Day Sabbath has been worshiped. Because Adventists have not been carefully keeping ALL of the Old Testament Sabbaths and Feast Days, arguably no Adventists have been saved up until this point! By only keeping the 7th Day Sabbath, no Adventist since its founding, other than present Feast Keepers, have obeyed the will of God. They have all been lost. In the Near future, the majority of Historic Adventists will have rejected St. Paul and eliminated his writings from the Bible. http://www.sherryshriner.com/sherry/churches.htm
http://www.dennispriebe.com/new/node/29
http://unsealedprophecy.wordpress.com/2013/07/11/the-hebrew-roots-movement-another-false-gospel/

The evolving Adventist doctrine is that focusing only on the Ten Commandments and the 7th Day Sabbath that Adventists have been worshiping for 150 years no longer cuts the mustard. For Adventists to come onto a Christian site and deceitfully proclaim that they are only trying to get people to follow the Ten Commandments could not be more dishonest. In the "fine print" is the rejection of each and every single important doctrine of Christianity and the rejection of a goodly portion of the New Testament. How can they possibly think it is ethical to not mention the prevailing view of their own theologians that Paul was a false Apostle? And knowing good and well that St. Paul was and is the CENTERPIECE of Christian theology!

The deceitfuly-pious, deliberately-superficial Sabbath and Ten Commandment argument is the ultimate dishonest bait and switch sales tactic. It is NOT the "Present Truth" of Adventism. Not even close.

Here is a nice concise statement of present Adventist anti-Christianity lunacy:
http://www.lifeassuranceministries.org/proclamation/2008/5/ratzlaff.html

This has nothing to do with Christianity. NOTHING.

 

[SAAN]

Thank you for your willingness to share your testimony.

As you may have noticed - those at war with the law of God will resort to any level of accusation against those who do choose to honor God's TEN commandments.

To be at war against God's law in an unrepentant fashion is a serious matter. To have a spirit of repentance and conviction, reformation and revival - is to have the heart of the saved saint.

in Christ,

Bob

Once again, the 10 commandments are just 10 of the 5-600 commandments God gave. The dietary laws are not in then10c's buy you probably keep them. All the numerous laws on sexul immorality are not in the 10 C's , but you obey those.

So if you are going to brag about keeping the 10 c's because you are keeping the commands of God you need to be keeping the Sabbathsin Lev 23 as well as they and the 10c's were never abolished.

 

[VictorC]

You are truly wearing thin--I had no voice in either the creating or in the "murder" of them. At 12, having been under my fathers evil since 8 I was not allowed to say no--and I had no love for God at all then--no contradiction. Like the thief on the cross--when I came back to God he forgave all my dirty laundry. I say came back, but I was never with Him, I always believed He existed and was very real--I just basically hated Him for what I was forced to endure--I didn't give up my anger at Him and the church until I was 35. You do not have the right to call me a murderer when God Himself has forgiven--not a very kind, loving, nor Christian attitude, but expected. I've had to comfort and explain God's forgiveness to many like me who had faced just this type of Christianity.

A problem that becomes apparent in your post is that you show an obsessive need to excuse your first abortion in 1973, and hope that others haven't noticed your reference to abortions in the plural. The first step of forgiveness demands acknowledgement that doesn't deflect blame away and make excuses for it. Your obsession defies forgiveness. Take it off the forum and get help.

A greater problem with your post is that you're deflecting attention away from the pit you dug for yourself regarding the Sabbath:

Why??---Christs death did away with animal sacrifices--keeping those requires animal sacrifices--Christs blood is the new covenant and all those laws requiring animal sacrfices have been done away with

Here you openly confess that the Sabbath(s) has(have) been "done away with".

--the 10 commandments as written by the hand of God do not require animal blood-

And the Law Spoken by the Voice of God demands animal sacrifice, including the weekly Sabbath.

--We keep answering the question, but you keep asking the same question---boring!

All we see is that you have dispensed with ALL of God's Sabbaths and Holy Days given in Judaism, but can't quite acknowledge Christianity's affirmation of God's redemption from the covenant from Mount Sinai, which Moses called the Ten Commandments (Deuteronomy 4:13).
Adding insult to injury, remember that each time you refer to Exodus 20 this is the Oral declaration of the covenant from Mount Sinai. It wasn't until later that God wrote the contents of His covenant onto tablets of stone and handed them to Moses. And yet you dismiss God's Oral commandments through Moses on one hand, and embrace His Oral commandments on the other.

This illustrates your inconsistency in handling the old covenant Christianity isn't even bound to, as was pointed out before:

Your latest claim is that you can divide the Law, and just abide by the Ten Commandments and dispense with the rest. Well, you dismissed the burnt offerings and the requisite sacrifice of two lambs on the sabbath (Numbers 28:9-10). But we know that Exodus 35:3 prohibits lighting a fire and this is the reason Adventists don't cook on the sabbath. We also know that Leviticus 23:3 is where the call for a convocation on the sabbath is found, and is the reason Adventists go assemble in church. By your dismissal of the burnt offerings mandated to keep the sabbath HOLY (Exodus 20:8), you've also dismissed any reason to go to church on the sabbath - the Ten Commandments doesn't say anything about a convocation. The call for Holiness according to the Law accepts the entire Law. And, you've never offered any reason to dismiss the other sabbaths that are equally binding under the Law, which is what the OP addresses.

Do you really think that the Finger of God is Holy, and yet His Voice isn't?
That's the basis for your division of the Law, after all.

SAAN also commented on this very same thing:

So did God do away with the Sabbath as well too since it also required offerings?

Numbers 28:9-10

New King James Version (NKJV)

Sabbath Offerings

9 ‘And on the Sabbath day two lambs in their first year, without blemish, and two-tenths of an ephah of fine flour as a grain offering, mixed with oil, with its drink offering— 10 this is the burnt offering for every Sabbath, besides the regular burnt offering with its drink offering.

You haven't dealt with either of these. You aren't going to deal with either of these. You're more concerned about saving face than you are in honestly confessing that you've documented the end of the Sabbath ordinance. Not only this, but an open admission that the SDA church has never kept the Sabbath HOLY according to the Law that ordained it, has no intention to, and has no excuse for dismissing the multiple Sabbaths ordained throughout the year, equally binding on all those whose soteriology is based on compliance to the old covenant.

 

[LarryP2]

Not only this, but an open admission that the SDA church has never kept the Sabbath HOLY according to the Law that ordained it, has no intention to, and has no excuse for dismissing the multiple Sabbaths ordained throughout the year, equally binding on all those whose soteriology is based on compliance to the old covenant.

Only the Adventist Feast Keepers are making an honest effort to do the right thing, and openly eliminating every single cardinal Christian doctrine and large parts of the New Testament. Adventism will no longer have one foot in Judaism and another one barely in Christianity. Eventually, the honest Adventists will be indistinguishable from Messianic Judaism. Their Bible will be the Old Testament and the synaptic Gospels, minus John.

The "Ten Commandments" and "7th Day Sabbath" mantra is just a blatantly dishonest bait and switch sales tactic. It in no way remotely resembles Adventism' current doctrinal trajectory.

 

[VictorC]

As you may have noticed - those at war with the law of God will resort to any level of accusation against those who do choose to honor God's TEN commandments.

To be at war against God's law in an unrepentant fashion is a serious matter. To have a spirit of repentance and conviction, reformation and revival - is to have the heart of the saved saint.

Twice this morning you have waged war against the Law, first by reverting to a fictitious origin of the Sabbath prior to Moses that has been repeatedly proven false. Then you continue to wage war against the Law by stripping it of its Holiness and refusing to keep the Sabbath HOLY according to the Law.

This is the second time you have exposed Adventism's soteriology based on the old covenant in your posts, and then imply that those who are lost are those who do as you do.

No one illustrates the cultic nature of the SDA church better than the horse's mouth.

 

[VictorC]

Only the Adventist Feast Keepers are making an honest effort to do the right thing, and openly eliminating every single cardinal Christian doctrine and large parts of the New Testament. Adventism will no longer have one foot in Judaism and another one barely in Christianity. Eventually, the honest Adventists will be indistinguishable from Messianic Judaism. Their Bible will be the Old Testament and the synaptic Gospels, minus John.

The "Ten Commandments" and "7th Day Sabbath" mantra is just a blatantly dishonest bait and switch sales tactic. It in no way remotely resembles Adventism' current doctrinal trajectory.

I came from a MJ background, and a serious division and departure of those within that realm comes when consistency with doctrinal conclusions brings out the knife for circumcision. Adventism isn't consistent enough to ever get to the knife that awaits them.

 

[LarryP2]

I came from a MJ background, and a serious division and departure of those within that realm comes when consistency with doctrinal conclusions brings out the knife for circumcision. Adventism isn't consistent enough to ever get to the knife that awaits them.

That is so true, and almost comical. The hilariously-anodyne Adventist-trademarked "Sabbath" is completely ABSENT of any of its cultural, Biblical and historical antecedents. Ellen White truly "reinvented the wheel" with her amazing "white balloon bread" construction of Adventist Sabbath Doctrine. There is no better proof that if anything, Adventism has rejected the Old Testament law FAR more than even the most Pauline Christian. With Adventists, Ellen White is many magnitudes more important than the Old Testament.

Just the other day, I had a very nice and brutally honest discussion with an MJ scholar (and a gentleman). He made no bones about it: Plainly, Pauline Christianity was oriented completely towards the Gentile Christians and completely stripped Christianity of any of its Hebrew Roots. He had no objection with my contention that Eastern Orthodoxy stresses its first Sunday worship happened the week after the Resurrection and the first Easter Celebration was at the one-year anniversary of the Resurrection, all at the instructions of the Apostles. And St. Paul eliminated the Sabbath and every other ceremony of Judaism. MJ, in turn simply just eliminates Paul.

It was so refreshing being able to get to "First Base" with someone honest enough to appreciate real history, instead of the made-up fairy tales of Adventism.

Adventists are in la-la land. They murder Colossians 2:14-17 and make it mean exactly the OPPOSITE of what it says. They willfully overlook Paul's explicit and savage denunciation of Galatian Sabbath Keeping. The Galatian "heresy" WAS Sabbath Keeping! And Adventists never, ever; under any circumstances address the contention of Eastern Orthodoxy. NEVER For 150 years, Adventists have completely and dishonestly ignored the second largest Christian communion with 300 million adherents presently.

 

[from scratch]

"As you may have noticed - those at war with the law of God will resort to any level of accusation against those who do choose to honor God's TEN commandments."

What an absurd, parochial statement. When I read stuff like that, I truly despair that Adventists will ever understand the point of Christianity.

Adventists "choose to honor God's TEN commandments" Is it just me, or does anybody else notice that Adventists, rarely, if ever discuss Christ's Great Commandments? 99.9999999999999999 percent of the time, it is the Old Testament law they discuss. The rest of the time, they give only grudging lip service to Christ's Commandments.

Christianity chooses to honor God by having faith in his Resurrection, and allowing the Holy Spirit to write Christ's Great Commandments on their heart. That has never changed. Adventism quite plainly teaches "another Gospel."

Night and day difference.

I will begin with the following scripture, and then segue into Paul's most important speech ever:

1 Corinthians 9:20-22] - “Therefore became I to the Jews as a Jew, that Jews I might win; to those who were under the Law as under law, not being myself under the Law, that those who were under the Law I might win. To those who were without the Law as without law, not being without law to God but lawfully subject to Christ that I might win those who were without law. I became to the weak, weak, that the weak I might win: -to all men have I become all things that by all means some I might save.”

In Paul's Mars Hill Speech, no mention of the Ten Commandments was recorded by either the Biblical writers, nor by the Greeks who were there. In fact, at Mars Hill, Paul absolutely rejected his entire Hebrew background and spent much of his speech discussing the GREEK gods and the poets who lionized them. THAT was where Christianity became a separate and distinct religion from Judaism. Paul plainly talked and acted like a Greek, and right then and there, Christianity embraced pagan gods as the antecedent for Christ and rejected any resemblance to the Hebrew God of the Old Testament. Paul's Mars Hill speech is laced with references to Zeuss. Not the God of the Old Testament. You cannot find a more clear, more powerful rejection of the Old Testament Law that Paul gave on Mars Hill. Adventists must think Zeuss also ordered the keeping of the Sabbaths!
Versatility of Paul on Mars Hill - “All Things to All Men”

On Mars Hill, Christianity and Judaism were divorced.

Honest Adventists must follow the logic through and reject Paul as a false Apostle, reject the Divinity of Christ, Reject the Trinity, build Adventist synogogues, and resume all of the yearly and monthly Sabbaths and Feast days. This is Adventism's latest mutant evolution. Serious Adventists can no longer honestly follow only the Old Testament law that tickled Ellen White's fancy, or gave her a pleasant gut feeling. The Feast Keepers are formulating objective criteria and have realized that NONE of the Old Testament law is obsolete. They are the only Adventists living their own principles.

Lay-Adventists are mostly not aware of the "Adventist Feast Keeper" movement and the books of the two top Adventist theologians that have virtually mandated this rejection of historic Adventist Sabbath doctrine, wherein only the Americanized 7th Day Sabbath has been worshiped. Because Adventists have not been carefully keeping ALL of the Old Testament Sabbaths and Feast Days, arguably no Adventists have been saved up until this point! By only keeping the 7th Day Sabbath, no Adventist since its founding, other than present Feast Keepers, have obeyed the will of God. They have all been lost. In the Near future, the majority of Historic Adventists will have rejected St. Paul and eliminated his writings from the Bible. Where The Churches Went Wrong, The Deception of the Ages
New Light for Adventists | Dennis Priebe Seminars
THE HEBREW ROOTS MOVEMENT – ANOTHER FALSE GOSPEL | Unsealed Prophecy

The evolving Adventist doctrine is that focusing only on the Ten Commandments and the 7th Day Sabbath that Adventists have been worshiping for 150 years no longer cuts the mustard. For Adventists to come onto a Christian site and deceitfully proclaim that they are only trying to get people to follow the Ten Commandments could not be more dishonest. In the "fine print" is the rejection of each and every single important doctrine of Christianity and the rejection of a goodly portion of the New Testament. How can they possibly think it is ethical to not mention the prevailing view of their own theologians that Paul was a false Apostle? And knowing good and well that St. Paul was and is the CENTERPIECE of Christian theology!

The deceitfuly-pious, deliberately-superficial Sabbath and Ten Commandment argument is the ultimate dishonest bait and switch sales tactic. It is NOT the "Present Truth" of Adventism. Not even close.

Here is a nice concise statement of present Adventist anti-Christianity lunacy:
Ratzlaff

This has nothing to do with Christianity. NOTHING.

Yes sir anyone who reads the whole forum will see they do exactly that.

 

[mmksparbud]

A problem that becomes apparent in your post is that you show an obsessive need to excuse your first abortion in 1973, and hope that others haven't noticed your reference to abortions in the plural. The first step of forgiveness demands acknowledgement that doesn't deflect blame away and make excuses for it. Your obsession defies forgiveness. Take it off the forum and get help.

A greater problem with your post is that you're deflecting attention away from the pit you dug for yourself regarding the Sabbath:

SAAN also commented on this very same thing:

You haven't dealt with either of these. You aren't going to deal with either of these. You're more concerned about saving face than you are in honestly confessing that you've documented the end of the Sabbath ordinance. Not only this, but an open admission that the SDA church has never kept the Sabbath HOLY according to the Law that ordained it, has no intention to, and has no excuse for dismissing the multiple Sabbaths ordained throughout the year, equally binding on all those whose soteriology is based on compliance to the old covenant.

We've dealt with these issues over and over and stating as we always will, that Christ is now the only blood sacrifice needed--period. Your foolish attempts at making people think that we are going to declare Paul as a false prophet is downright deceitful. If there are off shoots declaring that, they are wrong. Paul wrote Hebrews and fully explains that Christ is our high priest now which you are ignoring completely. That's the problem with this "cafeteria" style of choosing your beliefs--you build a fasle doctrine around a magnified 3-4 verses and yet will totally ignore a whole book of the bible that plainly details and destroys your false conceptions. If that is what you want to do, it's your right to do so.

I do not have an obessive need to excuse my first or any of my abortions--I don't need to--I stand forgiven before God and whatever you think is not of any importance. I was stating why I was against God and the church for so many years so that others who may read this and have had similar experiances will not be discouraged--I certainly will not apologize for that. I was not excusing but I was trying to get you to understand and other "chritians" who may run across others like me (which are millions of us)--that God forgives and that victims of abuse are not to be blamed for being raped forced to do things that they had no control over--apparently you did not get the memo about God not only forgives, but He states He forgets. Our past is our testimony of God's redeeming grace. Your attempts at trying to degrade me are not an offense to me, but to God, and shows the true nature of your total misunderstanding of what Christianity is. I pray the Holy Spirit will help you and guide you into a greater knowledge of His character, and His will.

The bringing up of Desmond Ford and stating he is amongst the angry ex-SDAs was noted and I posted a portion of his magazine and His statements and posted the link to his magazine so that you and others may be informed of all that he thinks. He has his right to think differently than what the rest of the church beliefs on any subject. I do not fear his, or any others right to think whatever they want. It seems you did not read his statements as you made no mention of them--in fact, his name has been dropped from the list of "accusers", and I wondered why.
I can look up the writings of those other people and post them also if you like. I do prefer to get my info straight from "the horses mouth" instead of through an anti-SDA website. When discussing any religion I try to not go to an "anti" wesite but to the website of that denomination. I post portions of the Catholic Catechism, not statements from anti-catholic websites. Like you, I would post from former members if the discussion went that way.

I have dug no pit for myself--I stand by Paul, and all of his books, including Hebrews, as I stand by all of the bible--not just the OT or just the New Test, but all of it. The old testament is what was used to bring the first christians into the church. They, like Christ, studied those books and it is those books that led the first Christians to Jesus.

Joh 5:39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.
2Ti 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
The new testament had not yet been written, though the disciples letters were being passed around.

It was what the Ethiopian was reading when Philip explained who the scriptures were talking about and was baptized right then.

Somebody complained about my different font sizes--I have no control over that, it happens when I copy/paste----In fact I don't know enough to change the font sizes yet!

 

[VictorC]

We've dealt with these issues over and over and stating as we always will, that Christ is now the only blood sacrifice needed--period. Your foolish attempts at making people think that we are going to declare Paul as a false prophet is downright deceitful. If there are off shoots declaring that, they are wrong. Paul wrote Hebrews and fully explains that Christ is our high priest now which you are ignoring completely.

First of all, the Apostle Paul isn't acknowledged as the author of the epistle to the Hebrews. We don't know who wrote this epistle - it could have been Paul, or someone who accompanied him on his trips. Every Biblical scholar knows that we can't fix the authorship of this epistle as you claim to.

Second, the area of contention revolves around the Law, not any of the New Testament epistles. This is what two of us have pointed out to you, and the Epistle to the Hebrews firmly state that Jesus is the Mediator of the new covenant (Hebrews 9:15), and not the old, or 'first' that Christ took away (Hebrews 10:9). Your deflection away from the Sabbath you can't decide whether is 'taken away' or simply stripped of its Holiness remains a topic you have not provided any answer for. Review what was posted:

Why??---Christs death did away with animal sacrifices--keeping those requires animal sacrifices--Christs blood is the new covenant and all those laws requiring animal sacrfices have been done away with

Here you openly confess that the Sabbath(s) has(have) been "done away with".

--the 10 commandments as written by the hand of God do not require animal blood-

And the Law Spoken by the Voice of God demands animal sacrifice, including the weekly Sabbath.

--We keep answering the question, but you keep asking the same question---boring!

All we see is that you have dispensed with ALL of God's Sabbaths and Holy Days given in Judaism, but can't quite acknowledge Christianity's affirmation of God's redemption from the covenant from Mount Sinai, which Moses called the Ten Commandments (Deuteronomy 4:13).
Adding insult to injury, remember that each time you refer to Exodus 20 this is the Oral declaration of the covenant from Mount Sinai. It wasn't until later that God wrote the contents of His covenant onto tablets of stone and handed them to Moses. And yet you dismiss God's Oral commandments through Moses on one hand, and embrace His Oral commandments on the other.

This illustrates your inconsistency in handling the old covenant Christianity isn't even bound to, as was pointed out before:

Your latest claim is that you can divide the Law, and just abide by the Ten Commandments and dispense with the rest. Well, you dismissed the burnt offerings and the requisite sacrifice of two lambs on the sabbath (Numbers 28:9-10). But we know that Exodus 35:3 prohibits lighting a fire and this is the reason Adventists don't cook on the sabbath. We also know that Leviticus 23:3 is where the call for a convocation on the sabbath is found, and is the reason Adventists go assemble in church. By your dismissal of the burnt offerings mandated to keep the sabbath HOLY (Exodus 20:8), you've also dismissed any reason to go to church on the sabbath - the Ten Commandments doesn't say anything about a convocation. The call for Holiness according to the Law accepts the entire Law. And, you've never offered any reason to dismiss the other sabbaths that are equally binding under the Law, which is what the OP addresses.

Do you really think that the Finger of God is Holy, and yet His Voice isn't?
That's the basis for your division of the Law, after all.

SAAN also commented on this very same thing:

So did God do away with the Sabbath as well too since it also required offerings?

Numbers 28:9-10

New King James Version (NKJV)

Sabbath Offerings

9 ‘And on the Sabbath day two lambs in their first year, without blemish, and two-tenths of an ephah of fine flour as a grain offering, mixed with oil, with its drink offering— 10 this is the burnt offering for every Sabbath, besides the regular burnt offering with its drink offering.

You haven't dealt with either of these. Your other comments are not remotely germane.

I have dug no pit for myself....

You've done nothing to resolve your rejection of the Biblical Sabbath, and your inability or unwillingness to recognize this issue doesn't change anything.