How do Methodists differ from Baptists?

[Joykins]

That's fine, Joykins, but the world to come (if I accept Revelation as true) is NOT "eternal in the heavens."

"Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth; for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and the sea was no more. And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband; and I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, “Behold, the dwelling of God is with men. He will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself will be with them." (Revelation 21:1-3)
​

I think the same yearning is present whether people think it is "heaven when you die" or the resurrection unto life. Most people confuse the two routinely.

 

[Maid Marie]

I have heard of other views of the atonement besides the substitutionary one, like Christus Victor, but I really don't understand them or know if they are well supported from a Biblical viewpoint. I think the substitutionary model has very solid support from the Bible, but acknowledge that it might not be the only thing going on in Christ's life, death, and resurrection.

What is the predominant view among Wesleyans? Does anyone have an online resource I could look into to better understand it?

Thanks in advance;
Mike

I prefer Christus Victor.

 

[godenver1]

Do Methodists believe baptism is a means of grace and forgiveness of sins? If so, do Methodists believe that grace, justification and forgiveness of sins can be given by God regardless of water baptism?

And if not, could I still be a Methodist if I held onto a more Baptist view of baptism, that is that is not the only means of grace and justification- that faith is?

 

[circuitrider]

Do Methodists believe baptism is a means of grace and forgiveness of sins? If so, do Methodists believe that grace, justification and forgiveness of sins can be given by God regardless of water baptism?

And if not, could I still be a Methodist if I held onto a more Baptist view of baptism, that is that is not the only means of grace and justification- that faith is?

United Methodists do believe that both communion and baptism are means of receiving God's grace. Grace by the way isn't just about forgiveness. Grace is about receiving God's love, God's guidance, strength, and presence.

No you don't have to be baptized to receive God's forgiveness or be justified. But why turn down an offer of God's love and grace in baptism when God offers it?

Also, just so you are aware, United Methodists don't rebaptize. We believe baptism is a once in a life time gift of God. So if you were previously baptized in another church you won't be baptized again.

As to being a Methodist without believing in God's grace in the sacraments, not really. I'm not saying you couldn't probably manage to join a Methodist church. But Methodists believe not only that Baptism and Communion are sacraments but that in many ways the entire Christian journey is sacramental.

What I mean by that is that you receive God's grace in your baptism, in communion, in Bible study, in gathering with God's people (holy conferencing) and in other acts of Christian worship and service. United Methodists don't believe that grace is just received at justification or that it is just for forgiveness or just for a one time event but that the Christian life is grace filled.

So if you don't see grace in everything God does in our lives you miss out on a lot of the value of what Methodists believe.

I see it as a problem in Baptist theology that salvation is often thought of in the past tense. (I was saved on thus and such a date.) For Methodists we are still being saved every day and are seeking the grace of God to be more like Jesus every day. Justification is just one of the works of God in our lives from his leading us to faith (prevenient grace) to our acceptance of Christ (justifying grace) to being what God wants us ultimately to be (sanctifying grace.)

 

[RomansFiveEight]

Well said, Circuitrider!

I'll add that anyone can "be" a Methodist. We won't kick you out of the church, deny you God's grace (as if we had that authority anyway) at Communion, or even refuse membership. But as circuitrider said; it wouldn't be much of a fruitful faith for you if the essentials aren't there.

My response has always been that although there's nothing to make me believe that a person cannot enter the kingdom of heaven unbaptized or not having received grace through Holy Communion; I do not believe anyone with a real and genuine faith in Jesus Christ would be able to resist the yearning towards those Sacraments. So in that way, Baptism and Communion are reflections of our salvation!

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

.....Reason.

I come into contact with lots of Baptists and every theological discussion always comes down to them quoting scripture (often out of context) as proof of what they believe. If I show them that they are wrong on the big picture (God is love, God so loved the world that he sent his only son, etc), they tell me that I am writing my own gospel by ignoring their prooftexts (but they call it scriptural evidence).

Baptists (at least Southern Baptists) do not encourage Reason as a part of your theology. Methodists insist on it....

Never realized this way to think about it before. But it lines up with my experience too - I was kicked out of 3 churches who didn't want to discuss(reason) about the cure for cancer (known since 1932) that is still used but never talked about officially. The baptist leaders I met(pastors, deacons and sunday school teachers) said "if we tell the people a cure is already know, it will ruin the economy !?!?!" .... ... at least in the Methodists I met, they tried going to a doctor who still uses the simple, inexpensive, natural ways God provided, and many of them continue because of the good results - they 'tested' it, and proved it true .. the baptists wouldn't even talk about it, let alone try it or let someone else say something not in their control.

Also, I met 2 families from russia, (decades ago). Each families patriarch in the family is still possibly in prison in russia for proclaiming the testimony of Jesus and living His Way.
Anyhow, they read Scripture(just regular, english, bible - nothing weird) in a local baptist church from the pulpit, and were told they couldn't do that anymore because it wasn't in line with that churches 'doctrine'.
Now they have a small assembly in their home. One of the only God-honoring assemblies/groups in the area.(if i spoke/understood russian, i would go all the time ! )

 

[Maid Marie]

What I mean by that is that you receive God's grace in your baptism, in communion, in Bible study, in gathering with God's people (holy conferencing) and in other acts of Christian worship and service. United Methodists don't believe that grace is just received at justification or that it is just for forgiveness or just for a one time event but that the Christian life is grace filled.

Such a blessing, too!

 

[godenver1]

Grace by the way isn't just about forgiveness. Grace is about receiving God's love, God's guidance, strength, and presence.

No you don't have to be baptized to receive God's forgiveness or be justified. But why turn down an offer of God's love and grace in baptism when God offers it?

Thanks.

I can see myself conforming to these beliefs, if properly taught. I just can't see myself ever believing or teaching that an unbaptised person won't enter the kingdom solely on that, but since the UMC doesn't teach that I'm excited. Soon i'll be holidaying in USA, and I plan on visiting several churches by the grace of God and I hope I have an opportunity to visit a Methodist church.

 

[RomansFiveEight]

Thanks.

I can see myself conforming to these beliefs, if properly taught. I just can't see myself ever believing or teaching that an unbaptised person won't enter the kingdom solely on that, but since the UMC doesn't teach that I'm excited. Soon i'll be holidaying in USA, and I plan on visiting several churches by the grace of God and I hope I have an opportunity to visit a Methodist church.

When you visit those churches; take time to speak with the Pastors about the questions you have. In the United Methodist church, we are connectional. The churches are all 'connected'. That doesn't mean all of the clergy are the same, but it does mean they are all similar in theology and practice. They are also all trained in some manner; either a local licensing school, or a graduate level seminary education. They know the Methodist church well, and can answer your questions and would be happy to.

Of course, myself and others would be happy to answer your questions. I left the Southern Baptist church and became a Pastor in the United Methodist Church. I've been in your shoes! Feel free to send me a PM (or, ideally, ask me openly in the thread for the benefit of others; whichever makes you more comfortable) if you want to talk more or if you have more questions!

Please know that we don't want you to 'conform' to our beliefs. Rather, if in your heart the Holy Spirit leads you to an understanding that is similar to ours, we would like to facilitate your worship and help you to grow. We are servants of God, not enforcers of his will. We seek to tell people about Christ, not force them to conform to our understandings. Someone who disagreed with us would be welcome; but probably not happy here. If you think you may be led to a more Wesleyan understanding of God and the scriptures; then you'll certainly be happy here!

 

[godenver1]

Thank you.

Was there anything in particular that made you want to change to the Wesleyan theological view?

Thanks, for the advice re: 'conform'. I wrote that quickly, but i should clarify I would not just change views on scripture should a well spoken teacher come along.

 

[RomansFiveEight]

Thank you.

Was there anything in particular that made you want to change to the Wesleyan theological view?

Thanks, for the advice re: 'conform'. I wrote that quickly, but i should clarify I would not just change views on scripture should a well spoken teacher come along.

Well there's a lot of things. In reality I could write pages and pages on the reasons why. I'll give the 'readers digest' version as best I can, but feel free to ask questions if you want me to expand on something.

When I was very young, I was a United Methodist. I was baptized in the UMC, at attended a UM Church until I was about 8 or 9 years old. At that time, my parents moved to a Southern Baptist Church. We had moved to a new town, and that's the church they picked. My mom is now back in a United Methodist church and my parents are divorced (my dad lives in another state; don't know if/where he is attending church). She came back some time after I did (I became a United Methodist before they were divorced).

When I was about 12, I was told that my baptism didn't count. That I didn't know what it was when I was a baby so I needed to be re-baptized. Made enough sense to me so I consented, and was dunked into a big baptismal pool by a Pastor up in front of a congregation. My grandmother, a United Methodist Elder (An Elder is an ordained Pastor) was pretty upset about that. I never knew why. I assumed because she was the one who baptized me (It's pretty customary in the UM Church to baptize and marry your relatives even if they aren't members of your church), and she got her feelings hurt because I was "re baptized".

I would often spend the weekends with my grandmother. So, I would often attend a United Methodist Church (whatever church she was serving). I liked her sermons, but she was my grandma. In my perspective as a kid, there wasn't much of a difference between the two. But one thing I noticed, was a difference in communion. At my grandmas church, there was a lot of reverence, a lot of prayer. They also said the same words every time which I thought was kind of cool. They also did it all the time, and I got to come to communion even though I was a Baptist. Conversely, in my Baptist church, we only did communion once every few months, there was no reverence, it just seemed like a mundane thing. The Pastor said a quick prayer but didn't really seem to do anything with the elements and we had it after church. Only a few people stayed for communion, and only members of the church were allowed to have communion. (Side note: Those practices were practices of my local church and not necessarily a reflection of all SBC's, but it was enough to get me thinking about things like Communion and Baptism)

As I got older, I really started to wrestle with these things. I started to wrestle with the way my baptist congregation read the Bible. Like it was a literal word-for-word instruction manual like what you'd find for assembling a kids toy. If anyone challenged or questioned this, asked questions about the context or history in which the scripture was written; they were often told that those questions were just "Satan entering us" or "God testing our faith". In the back of my head I used to always think "Why don't you just say 'I don't know', it's okay not to know, instead of these lame excuses". It started to feel like the church was a lot about rhetoric repeated by the last generation or so. I loved God and had such a yearning to know more about the Bible. But, my baptist friends just told me EXACTLY what the Bible said and didn't seem to leave room for any other understandings. I wanted to know everything about God, and I just wasn't convinced that the Bible could be that simple, that easy. It wasn't that I disagreed with any of it. In fact, back then I had the same fundamentalist, ultra-conservative views the rest of them did. It truly was that I just did not think the Bible was that simple of a book. It seemed more complex.

Fast forward to age 15. By this time, I'm really struggling with my faith. Not doubt. But struggling with what I was supposed to do with my faith. I felt God wanted me to do something but I didn't know what it was. This was a yearning I'd felt all my life, and can remember all the way back to being a small child at age 5 or 6 and talking to my Pastor at the UM church we attended when I was that age. I told him I felt like God wanted me to do something and I wanted to make God happy. That it felt like when you know you're supposed to do your chores for your parents, they don't have to tell you to do it, you just know it's supposed to be done. Only I don't exactly know what that chore is this time. The UM Pastor told me that God has jobs for everyone, and when I get older, I'll know what my job is. At age 15, I really started to reflect on that yearning that seemed to be "flaring up". I went on a Chrysallis flight; a Wesleyan-esque retreat for youth that is the child of the Emmaus movement. If you don't know what those are, I strongly encourage you to look them up! While it is open for all denominations, it is very Wesleyan in it's understanding and theology.

While on this retreat, I was like a kid in a candy store. It seemed like every talk was an answer to questions I had for so many years. Talks about Prevenient Grace; I knew there had to be more to salvation than just me praying a prayer; now I finally heard someone say that God was seeking me beforehand. Not passively wanting me, but actively working on me, DOING THINGS inside of me, trying to lead me to him. Then I learned more about Justifying and Sanctifying grace. That salvation leads to good works, leads to us working to become more Holy. It's not about sinning and then asking for forgiveness, it's about striving, struggling, clawing, begging to become more Holy and more Christ-like. I received communion after hearing it talked about in a way I'd never heard it talked about before. With passionate reverence and talking about it as a means of Grace, as a way God is at work. Not just a symbol or tradition, but as a very real way God is working in my life. I took communion and cried at the altar. I wasn't ready for that kind of emotion. That's because that was the day communion stopped being a symbol for me to do because everyone else was doing, and became for me an outward sign of a very real, very powerful inward Grace.

Time continued and I continued to be very committed to the Chrysalis movement, even delivering some of the talks. Now I was in full-fledged study mode. Over the next couple of years I poured over Wesleyan theology, the sermons of John Wesley, and I began to study the scripture in the light of Scripture, Tradition, Reason and Experience. I was closer to God than I ever had been. At about age 17 I decided I was going to follow a boyhood dream. My whole life, there were two things I could never get out of my head. God, and airplanes. I decided I was going to become a commercial pilot. I enrolled in a flight school, intending to get my Bachelors in Aviation along with my Commercial Pilots License. I was so amped up and ready! When I made that decision, I had decided that God will use me, somehow, in aviation. Maybe God will put me in the path of people in other parts of the world who need to hear the message of Grace... or something. As I progressed though, it felt hollow. I was really struggling with my decision. It gave me so much joy, but it didn't feel right.

One more year, age 18. Senior in high school, giving yet another talk on yet another Chrysalis weekend. In this talk, I discussed my yearning to do the work of God my whole life, my growth in faith and how I fell in love with the Sacrament of communion. How it became a passionate, heart-wrenching, convicting, sorrowful-joyful way to be in communion with my Lord. After 'previewing' my talk with a few other team members before the weekend, one individual, an ordained United Methodist Pastor wrote something down while we were listening to another talk, and handed it to me. It said "Do you think you could be called into the ministry". I wrote down, "No" and passed it back. Fast forward to the weekend. That little piece of paper made me so angry. Why is it that just because I feel called to do ministry does every preacher think I have to be just like them? Why is it that I can't just be valuable as a lay person? I was honestly upset, offended, by his question. But it tugged, pulled, yanked on my heart. At that weekend, I prayed to God for hours. What, God, are you calling me to do. By the end of that weekend, after much soul searching, I sat next to this same Pastor and looked at him and said "You were right", and he just smiled.

I decided to discontinue my flight schooling and instead go to college to become a Pastor. I had not yet graduated high school. Only I never did get to call them. You see, over that same weekend, the flight school had closed. Instructors all fired, buildings foreclosed on, planes repossessed (you can't make this stuff up). The planes they used were leased from private owners. It's a win-win. They use your airplane a couple months out of the year, and lease it for enough money to cover a lot of the costs associated with owning it. Only, they had a bad habit of not paying. For years. A few lawsuits later, and they are underwater. Well, talk about affirming your decision! I also found out that UM Pastor I had chatted with as a kid about yearning to do something more was Pastoring a church near me. I left my Southern Baptist church and began attending that church, all alone! My entire family attending another church. That Pastor got me in touch with my District Superintendent (all of the churches are connected, Pastors are appointed by the district; not hired by the church. The District Superintendent is the "next office" beyond a Pastor, and is responsible for supporting and managing the Pastors and their churches). I met with her at a coffee shop (Oh, the 'her' thing is important too. I always struggled with the Baptist theology that women could not be called by God. I didn't think that was scripturally valid, and it didn't feel right. It was a looong list of things that led me to the UMC.) We talked for a couple of hours, she assigned me to a "mentor" and the rest is history.

I am now still in school, and currently serving under appointed at a United Methodist Church as a Local Pastor. Eventually, I'll be Ordained an Elder.

The reality is, I was always a Wesleyan Christian. I always felt that the Bible should be understood through the Holy Spirit, not just read and believed in one interpretation. I always struggled with close-mindedness and the idea that challenging our faith was sinful or that it was just us "being tested". Wesleyan Christian not only affirm, but encourage careful reflection of our own faith and studying. I believe that God is big enough to call a woman to ministry, and so does the United Methodist Church. Finally, as I got older, I began to regret consenting to that Baptism. I believe that Baptism is an unrepeatable Grace. God was present at my baptism (at an infant) and didn't screw it up. He got it right. I didn't need to fix it. Communion remains an essential part of my faith. The Sacrament of Communion remains the most crucial act of Worship for me. It is tremendously important to me. It's important to United Methodists as well. The UM understanding of communion resonates so well with who I am. Christ has set a table. I cannot wait to proclaim to the world that it's been set; come and eat until full. That fits my soul so much better, than another quarter has come around, let's all the members come around and take communion. Do it quickly though, it's time to get out of here! While not all Southern Baptist churches feel that way about communion; the beauty of a connectional church like the UMC is that ALL UM Churches believe the same essential things about communion.

Finally, I was really attracted to the idea of a connectional church. The idea that the church should be, as it was in the Scriptures, interconnected, led by God and those God has called to lead it. The Pastors should be tested, trained, and educated. The laity should be encouraged to be active in ministry. Ordination should be for those who have dedicated themselves to active ministry in a church; conferred at the hands of a Bishop. Not just given by anyone who gets a church of 8 people to vote them in.

I love and respect the ministry of my Baptist friends. But this is most certainly where my heart belongs!

 

[godenver1]

Thanks for the answer! I'm happy at my church, (which is not a Sou.Bap. Church) but feel almost what I'd call a 'yearning' for a more 'orthodox' church (and I don't mean in practise, but more in worship). That's not to say Baptists are 'unorthodox' but I'm talking about older churches, or more liturgical ones. As I grow older I feel like contemporary worship is not for me. My church is more like a mix, though. It's not the 'rock concert' feel that some mega churches have.

 

[RomansFiveEight]

Thanks for the answer! I'm happy at my church, (which is not a Sou.Bap. Church) but feel almost what I'd call a 'yearning' for a more 'orthodox' church (and I don't mean in practise, but more in worship). That's not to say Baptists are 'unorthodox' but I'm talking about older churches, or more liturgical ones. As I grow older I feel like contemporary worship is not for me. My church is more like a mix, though. It's not the 'rock concert' feel that some mega churches have.

You'll find both 'traditional' and 'contemporary' services in United Methodist churches.

You'll also find both 'High Church' (the Pastor nearly always vested in robe, stole, alb, etc.; liturgies, creeds, etc.) and 'Low Church' (Pastor doesn't even own a pair of slacks, doesn't use any liturgies if they were written more than 5 years ago) in the UMC; and everything in between. My church has traditional worship (using the hymnal) and elements of both High and Low church.

 

[random person]

Good post John!

Once Saved Always Saved and the usual view of Calvinists about salvation being a one time event in your life that fixes your future are very problematic to Christian maturation, or what Wesleyan Christians call sanctification.

It encourages people to have a one time faith event (getting saved) which is the be all and end all of being a Christian. After "getting saved" then there is no real need to grow in grace and become a more mature Christian. Baptists and others do emphasize Christian maturity but it is in no way a part of their soteriology because in their theology getting into heaven is the ultimate goal of salvation and not a person growing into the likeness of Christ.

Yes they hope you will grow into the likeness of Christ but it isn't a part of the process of salvation as they understand it.

John Wesley strongly taught a doctrine of assurance. This doctrine teaches us that we can trust God for our salvation and that our salvation is always based on the love and grace of God that continues to work in our lives.

The difference is, IMHO, is that Calvinist (and Baptist theology) doesn't want a continued trust in God's love. It demands a contractual arrangement where on a certain day and time God made a contract with you to take you to heaven and now He has to carry that out no matter what you do.

I don't believe that really amounts to trusting in God's grace. Instead it places faith on the understanding of a one time salvific event. So it is the event of "getting saved" that your trust ends up being in rather than a life time of trusting the continued love of God in your life.

I like this post, because I genuinely believe once one is saved they entered a relationship with God. In that we converse, praise, and pray to our heavenly Father daily. And ask all things through Christ as long as our prayers arent asking amiss to the will of God and not mispent carnally as in being thankless. Me! Me! Me! And not reflect that God already knows what we need.

 

[circuitrider]

A lot of United Methodists don't even like to use the popular evangelical phrase "I'm saved." Because it feels to past tense. It is a little to Calvin for many of us.

As you mentioned, being a Christian is a relationship rather than a transaction. So relationship grow, the change, and they can even be broken.

Better than just being saved I hope I'm being sanctified. I hope I'm growing more to be like Jesus. I pray that over the years I might grow in my faith and not just be satisfied with being saved.

 

[circuitrider]

A lot of United Methodists don't even like to use the popular evangelical phrase "I'm saved." Because it feels too past tense. It is a little too Calvin for many of us.

As you mentioned, being a Christian is a relationship rather than a transaction. So relationship grow, they change, and they can even be broken.

Better than just being saved I hope I'm being sanctified. I hope I'm growing more to be like Jesus. I pray that over the years I might grow in my faith and not just be satisfied with being saved.

 

[RomansFiveEight]

A lot of United Methodists don't even like to use the popular evangelical phrase "I'm saved." Because it feels too past tense. It is a little too Calvin for many of us.

As you mentioned, being a Christian is a relationship rather than a transaction. So relationship grow, they change, and they can even be broken.

Better than just being saved I hope I'm being sanctified. I hope I'm growing more to be like Jesus. I pray that over the years I might grow in my faith and not just be satisfied with being saved.

I agree. I have a staunch Calvisinist friend; someone I hold close to me who does great work for God; who is fond of asking me "Are you saved yet?" (As he doesn't view the arminian/Wesleyan methods of sanctification and understandings of Grace as valid).

My response to him, always with a smile; is "Working on it"!

 

[BryanW92]

My response to him, always with a smile; is "Working on it"!

 

[circuitrider]

I agree. I have a staunch Calvisinist friend; someone I hold close to me who does great work for God; who is fond of asking me "Are you saved yet?" (As he doesn't view the arminian/Wesleyan methods of sanctification and understandings of Grace as valid).

My response to him, always with a smile; is "Working on it"!

I like that too! That's very Wesleyan!

 

[RomansFiveEight]

I like that too! That's very Wesleyan!

I tend to be a little Wesleyan. hehe.