Article: differences between UMJC and MJAA

[Messianic Jewboy]

Competing Trends In Messianic Judaism: The Debate Over Evangelicalism

The 2 largest Messianic Jewish organizations are not necessarily united per se.

 

[daq]

Barely made it through half of the article.

 

[Messianic Jewboy]

Barely made it through half of the article.

Why off to work?

 

[daq]

Why off to work?

Sorry MJewboy, (I sure hope you do not change your name again after people have written your name all over the forum). I did not mean to discourage anyone from reading the article or put a damper on your thread. The article simply reeks to me of two sides jockeying for position, power, and authority over the ever increasing chunk of a perceived pie-chart. And what to do about that pesky "Gentile problem"? (there are so many of them now they surely cannot be sent packing).

Perhaps this will liven up the thread!

 

[Messianic Jewboy]

Sorry MJewboy, (I sure hope you do not change your name again after people have written your name all over the forum). I did not mean to discourage anyone from reading the article or put a damper on your thread. The article simply reeks to me of two sides jockeying for position, power, and authority over the ever increasing chunk of a perceived pie-chart. And what to do about that pesky "Gentile problem"? (there are so many of them now they surely cannot be sent packing).

Perhaps this will liven up the thread!

The article isn't about what to do with the Gentile problem.

 

[visionary]

Competing Trends In Messianic Judaism: The Debate Over Evangelicalism

The 2 largest Messianic Jewish organizations are not necessarily united per se.

It could have been called Competing trends in Messianic Judaism: The Debate over Jewish Traditions

Author is taking the Jewish Tradition Position over Evangelism in her article.

 

[Messianic Jewboy]

It could have been called Competing trends in Messianic Judaism: The Debate over Jewish Traditions

Author is taking the Jewish Tradition Position over Evangelism in her article.

author isn't taking any side, just laying out the facts and concludes with questions if the UMJC path would work.

 

[Avodat]

It could have been called Competing trends in Messianic Judaism: The Debate over Jewish Traditions

Author is taking the Jewish Tradition Position over Evangelism in her article.

Visionary - you need to use the correct terms or this whole thread will go hay-wire!

Evangelicalism is NOT the same as Evangelism - they are two very, very, different terms!

 

[mishkan]

Competing Trends In Messianic Judaism: The Debate Over Evangelicalism

The 2 largest Messianic Jewish organizations are not necessarily united per se.

I don't have time to finish right now, but it seems an excellent review, as far as I have gotten. Loved this summary, early on...

"If a phrase could characterize the guiding principle of each side, the MJAA would say, "follow the movement of the Spirit," while the UMJC would say, "be as authentic as possible." "
​

Honestly, I think the UMJC is still highly influenced by Christian thinking, as well. But have taken larger strides towards representing an authentic form of Judaism as Yeshua-followers.

 

[Messianic Jewboy]

I don't have time to finish right now, but it seems an excellent review, as far as I have gotten. Loved this summary, early on...

"If a phrase could characterize the guiding principle of each side, the MJAA would say, "follow the movement of the Spirit," while the UMJC would say, "be as authentic as possible." "
​

Honestly, I think the UMJC is still highly influenced by Christian thinking, as well. But have taken larger strides towards representing an authentic form of Judaism as Yeshua-followers.

I have no problems with being authentic but what is the definition of authentic Judaism?

 

[aniello]

Competing Trends In Messianic Judaism: The Debate Over Evangelicalism

The 2 largest Messianic Jewish organizations are not necessarily united per se.

Marc, thanks for the above reference link, haven't seen such before. From the most cursory read it appears informative. Will have to read it closer later.

I have a simple question. I have searched for an MJAA congregation in tha Albuquerque area and find none, not even any in the entire state of New Mexico. Do you know of any, from your resources, in NM? I would at least try to visit one if there were any up in the Albuquerque or Santa Fe area, as health, weather and age would permit.

Thank you.

 

[Messianic Jewboy]

Marc, thanks for the above reference link, haven't seen such before. From the most cursory read it appears informative. Will have to read it closer later.

I have a simple question. I have searched for an MJAA congregation in tha Albuquerque area and find none, not even any in the entire state of New Mexico. Do you know of any, from your resources, in NM? I would at least try to visit one if there were any up in the Albuquerque or Santa Fe area, as health, weather and age would permit.

Thank you.

I'll check.

 

[Gxg (G²)]

Competing Trends In Messianic Judaism: The Debate Over Evangelicalism

The 2 largest Messianic Jewish organizations are not necessarily united per se.

What was the biggest take-away that you had when it came to the article itself?

As said before when I referenced the article initially, when it comes to differences, the article does a good job of showing some of the ways MJAA and UMJC are radically different even though they line up...one clear difference between the two groups being that the MJAA has shown greater willingness to identify officially with evangelical move[bless and do not curse]ments since MJAA members and congregations, for instance, have affili[bless and do not curse]ated themselves with the popular Promise Keeper movement)..


It's not that the UMJC is necessarily more active in stances of "Torah not for Non-Jews" since they also note that Torah Observance is not obligatory for Jewish people (as in having to do it in order to please God) and instead is done in rememberance of who the Lord is/distinction while those who are Gentiles wishing to observe it have freedom to do so if called to it while Gentiles not doing so are accepted by the Lord since Mosaic Torah was never what the Lord envisioned for all Gentiles to walk according to. ..

And for both UMJC and MJAA, observing Torah was never what was an issue since following Christ was a matter of following the Law/Torah of God he set - but what was the real focus was knowing the variations Torah went thru and seeing what God commanded to both Jew and Gentile that was to be followed. Obviously, this doesn't mean that works are not important to the Lord since they are a reflection of how one feels before the Lord

But in both, the focus on people being accepted on the basis of Abraham's faith and that being what brings Non-Jews and Jews together seems present in both the MJAA and UMJC. The apostles were right not to force Gentiles to become Jews or vice versa. Likewise, the MJAA doesn't try to force Gentiles to become Jews. And I've seen some of the articles from the MJAA that go in-depth on the Abraham issue that were helpful - as seen in Rediscovering Galatians_2011 MJAA Southwest Regional. ..

 

[Messianic Jewboy]

What was the biggest take-away that you had when it came to the article itself?

The biggest take away is not Torah observance as the article says both organizations do, the UMJC more traditional and the MJAA in light of Messiah. The Bar Mitzvah comparison was interesting.

As said before when I referenced the article initially, when it comes to differences, the article does a good job of showing some of the ways MJAA and UMJC are radically different even though they line up...one clear difference between the two groups being that the MJAA has shown greater willingness to identify officially with evangelical move[bless and do not curse]ments since MJAA members and congregations, for instance, have affili[bless and do not curse]ated themselves with the popular Promise Keeper movement)..

Yes both line up in regards to Torah observance as I said above with differences. As Mishkan said the UMJC is still highly influenced by Christian thinking but seems to want to move away. The MJAA is still evangelicalism(not to be confused with evangelism). In other words both organizations were evangelicalism but one seems like it wants to move away from that, even though they still might be influenced by Christian thinking.

It's not that the UMJC is necessarily more active in stances of "Torah not for Non-Jews" since they also note that Torah Observance is not obligatory for Jewish people (as in having to do it in order to please God) and instead is done in rememberance of who the Lord is/distinction while those who are Gentiles wishing to observe it have freedom to do so if called to it while Gentiles not doing so are accepted by the Lord since Mosaic Torah was never what the Lord envisioned for all Gentiles to walk according to. ..

Taking from what the article said... With my own twist...

UMJC would say that God is in the synagogue and so would the MJAA. But the difference is that the MJAA focus is saved versus not saved and the UMJC stance is Jew versus non Jew.

If I were to make a comparison I would say that the MJAA is between a Dr Michael Brown and authentic.

As the article says with the MJAA Jewishness is valorized. Why is it valorized? Because it's central to the MJAA....

We believe in God's end-time plan for the nation of Israel and for the world. A central part of Messianic Judaism is the belief in the physical and spiritual restoration of Israel, as taught in the Scriptures. The greatest miracle of our day has been the re-establishment or rebirth of the State of Israel according to prophecy (Ezekiel 34:11-31; 36-39; Hosea 3; Amos 9:11-15; Zechariah 12-14; Isaiah 11; 43; 54; 60-62; 66; Romans 11:1-34) (see also Scriptures under THE MESSIAH).

Now this doesn't mean with the UMJC the restoration of Israel isn't central.

And for both UMJC and MJAA, observing Torah was never what was an issue since following Christ was a matter of following the Law/Torah of God he set - but what was the real focus was knowing the variations Torah went thru and seeing what God commanded to both Jew and Gentile that was to be followed. Obviously, this doesn't mean that works are not important to the Lord since they are a reflection of how one feels before the Lord

According to the article in it's beginnings this wasn't the case. Times change and organizations have taken different paths.

But in both, the focus on people being accepted on the basis of Abraham's faith and that being what brings Non-Jews and Jews together seems present in both the MJAA and UMJC.

I can't speak from personal experience with the UMJC only what I read etc. But presently the MJAA focused on that because of the direction they choose not to go or to go.

The apostles were right not to force Gentiles to become Jews or vice versa. Likewise, the MJAA doesn't try to force Gentiles to become Jews. And I've seen some of the articles from the MJAA that go in-depth on the Abraham issue that were helpful - as seen in Rediscovering Galatians_2011 MJAA Southwest Regional. ..

Let me paraphrase it with my own twist...Yes from personal experience the MJAA doesn't try to force Torah observance but they also don't try to force no Torah observance.

But let me be clear... A friend of mine isn't Jewish. He doesn't wear a kippah at the synagogue. I never asked him about it. It's automatic for me to wear one. But if he did wear one there wouldn't be a problem. This reminds me of the movie Rocky where Rocky is burying Mickey who is Jewish. And what's Rocky doing? He is wearing a kippah and Kaddish.

In conclusion both organizations aren't perfect. One is breaking away from it's evangelicalism roots.

 

[Messianic Jewboy]

Visionary - you need to use the correct terms or this whole thread will go hay-wire!

Evangelicalism is NOT the same as Evangelism - they are two very, very, different terms!

Oh yea I don't catch that.

 

[Avodat]

Oh yea I don't catch that.

Evangelism is what you DO - taking the Word out to the people.

Evangelicalism (the opposite of liberalism) is about the attitude a person has towards the Bible and his/her faith. There are four measures to use to ascertain who is an Evangelical - they are (in no particular order):

that the person takes the (whole) Bible very seriously.

that they believe that an active Christian life is an essential part of their faith,

that the cross is a key part of salvation,

and that there has to be an acceptance of, or conversion to, belief in Jesus as Saviour of the world.

so as you see they are very different words and are NOT interchangeable, unless you want to really confuse people!

 

[Messianic Jewboy]

Evangelism is what you DO - taking the Word out to the people.

Evangelicalism (the opposite of liberalism) is about the attitude a person has towards the Bible and his/her faith. There are four measures to use to ascertain who is an Evangelical - they are (in no particular order):

that the person takes the (whole) Bible very seriously.

that they believe that an active Christian life is an essential part of their faith,

that the cross is a key part of salvation,

and that there has to be an acceptance of, or conversion to, belief in Jesus as Saviour of the world.

so as you see they are very different words and are NOT interchangeable, unless you want to really confuse people!

Yes I'm glad you posted that because that's relevant to the article. Both the UMJC and MJAA both started as such. Some would call that Christian thinking. I think mishkan might have elluded to that(I say might cause I don't want to misrepresent what he said).

The article suggests that the UMJC is moving away from that compared to the MJAA which isn't. The differences being with 'rituals'(I'm using this term lightly) that MJAA is more on Messianic significance where as the article suggests the UMJC is tries to be more traditional towards Judaism. The circumcision example was a pretty good comparison.

From the article...

"Instead of the theme of revival, the UMJC document stresses the theme of credibility. The dialectic between the Union's "credible" form of Judaism versus the Alliance's more charismatic/evangelical focus is also worked out in its approach to ritual life within the congregation."

The comparison of Brit Milah between the UMJC and the MJAA from the article...

" An example of his circumcision ritual reveals a distinct Messianic flavor, taking away elements of the traditional service that are "rabbinic and not scripturally founded," and adding its own Messianic ele-ments.

The service is structured so that there is a gradual progression in focus from the physical to the better spiritual reality, from the circumcision of the body to the circumcision of the heart, achieved by the atoning work of Messiah. In this way a ceremony Beth Yeshua has in common with traditional Judaism, which seeks to affirm God's eternal promises to the Jewish people, becomes a vehicle for emphasizing the Jews' need for the Messiah, a tradition[bless and do not curse]al evangelical concern. By contrast, Tony Eaton and Mark Kinzer use the traditional conservative, madrich, the rabbinical manual for life cycle events, for their circumcisions. There is no need for a spe[bless and do not curse]cific Messianic service, because the child is being brought into the covenant of Israel."

So as you can see provided the article is accurate the MJAA as the article says is of evangelism concern.

I'm not saying one is right or wrong but there is a difference.

 

[MadMaxData]

"An example of his circumcision ritual reveals a distinct Messianic flavor, taking away elements of the traditional service that are "rabbinic and not scripturally founded," and adding its own Messianic elements.

What exactly is "Rabbinic" and what exactly is not "scripturally founded" in a circumcision ritual?

I can't wait for this explanation, it should be a good one...LOL

 

[MadMaxData]

The article simply reeks to me of two sides jockeying for position, power, and authority over the ever increasing chunk of a perceived pie-chart.

I couldn't agree more! Both organizations are a joke IMHO. They are competing to be the "Roman Catholics" of Messianic Judaism.

 

[Messianic Jewboy]

What exactly is "Rabbinic" and what exactly is not "scripturally founded" in a circumcision ritual?

I can't wait for this explanation, it should be a good one...LOL

Traditionally it's how a Bris is performed(mohel etc) which isn't found in scripture. A Bris is scripturally founded. For me and my family the only way we know how to have a Bris is by tradition and the same with a Seder to name a few.