Why dont SDA's and Sabbath keepers also keep the Feast Days of Leviticus 23 too???

[BobRyan]

Citing Jesus where He told us in plain language that the sabbath was "made for man" is the clearest indicator that it is not God's "My rest" recorded in the Genesis account. The sabbath would not exist for thousands of years after God's rest.

Not true according to God in Ex 20:11 where he states that Gen 1-2:3 alone established the Sabbath as a Holy Day. And Gen 2 is before all animal sacrifices - and all ceremonial law.

Is 66:23 says it applies to "ALL mankind" and so also does Mark 2:27.

Even your own Sunday Sources - admit to this point.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[VictorC]

You are struggling with the 'Bible details' and in so doing missing quite a few.

1. ALL agree that Paul is singling out the ceremonial practices not the moral law when HE says

[FONT=&quot]“[/FONT]16 Let no one, then, judge you in eating or in drinking, or in respect of a feast, or of a new moon, or of sabbaths,
17 which are a shadow of the coming things, and the body [is] of the Christ;”
​

2. So the question is – whether the TEN commandments are Moral LAW – or Ceremonial. And specifically if the 4th commandment is ceremonial – based on animal sacrifices and offerings which end a the cross – or moral. (A number of even Sunday sources admit it is part of the moral law)

3. The 4th commandment Sabbath Ex 20:11 was given in Gen 2:1-3 before all animal sacrifices. (A number of even Sunday sources admit to this obvious point). Thus it is not a shadow pointing forward to the cross or to sacrifice. But a memorial.

4. The 4th commandment remains for all eternity for all mankind (Is 66:23) and the ceremonial laws were not given to “all mankind”. . (A number of even Sunday sources admit to this obvious point).

5. The speculation is that feasts, new moon, Sabbaths must be “yearly, monthly, weekly” but it is “Sabbaths” plural and used for feasts – annual feasts just as in “Hos 2:11 NASB

“I will also put an end to all her gaiety,
Her feasts, her new moons, her sabbaths
And all her festal assemblies.
​

6. There is No text establishing the weekly Sabbath as a feast or festival. Lev 23 specifically distinguishes between “These are the feasts” vs a day of “solemn rest” where there could be no feasting, just “holly convocation. But then “These are the feasts” in vs 4 is used to identify what follows.

3 ‘Six days shall work be done, but the seventh day is a Sabbath of solemn rest, a holy convocation. You shall do no work on it; it is the Sabbath of the Lord in all your dwellings.
4 ‘These are the feasts of the Lord, holy convocations which you shall proclaim at their appointed times (KJV, NKJV)
​

7. The command in Col 2 related to “judging others” – and in Matt 7:1-5 long before any ceremonial law had been abolished – Christ also condemns this work of judging others. That did not abolish the ceremonial law in Matt 7.

Bob, the division of 'moral' versus 'ceremonial' you imposed on the Law is artificial. Had you responded to the pertinent content of my post in its entirety, the imposition of this artificial division would have rectified itself for you:

The weekly sabbath is listed first among the feasts and convocations in Leviticus 23. Its listing as such is among the reasons Colossians 2:16-17 mentions the descending order: "let no one judge you in food or in drink, or regarding a festival or a new moon or sabbaths, which are a shadow of things to come". Mentioning the feasts -which includes the weekly sabbath- and ordinances repeating in the annual, monthly, and weekly cycles doesn't omit the sabbath.

Also, it was you who brought up Hebrews chapter 10's mention of the various offerings, of which God shows no pleasure in.

Hebrews 10
8 Previously saying, “Sacrifice and offering, burnt offerings, and offerings for sin You did not desire, nor had pleasure in them” (which are offered according to the law), 9 then He said, “Behold, I have come to do Your will, O God.” He takes away the first that He may establish the second. 10 By that will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

Bob, what is the significance of the burnt offerings?
What happened to the ordinances that drove these offerings?

And He -who is Jesus Christ- took away the 'first' in order to ordain the second covenant. That 'first' is defined in this epistle.
What happened to the ordinances contained within the 'first'?

In addition, anyone familiar with Leviticus 23 can see that you purposely omitted verses 1 and 2, which makes the sabbath inclusive to the feasts of the LORD. Maybe your intent is to misrepresent the Law. Again. Your point #3 was also proven to be false in my post, and repeating it shows that you don't know what the sabbath is. It only damages your credibility when you do this.

 

[Sophrosyne]

My wife asked me why I'm wasting time with someone who can't seem to answer simple, direct questions. And you know what, she has a really good point, like always. No wonder I married her Anyway, Bob doesn't have any insight we can learn from - other than illustrating a reliance on obfuscation, misrepresentation of other member's posts, vain repetition, and deflection as a defense mechanism necessary to embrace Adventism.

Go ahead - let the cat out of the bag. It must be hungry by now...

I think defending the faith it a good exercise and for those who are now or a lot later reading these threads who are either SDA or interested in such they will see the truth of things and perhaps one person... just one will choose to listen to Paul instead of Ellen and have a life of Grace instead of Law in its place.

 

[cyberlizard]

IOW the law has no jurisdiction. Evidence courtesy of you. Thanks.

err, no. how did you come to this twisted conclusion.


Steve

 

[BobRyan]

As we all know -- none of these sunday-sources took their material from Ellen White and some came long before her day.

The "Baptist Confession of Faith"
The "Westminster Confession of Faith"
The Catholic Catechism
D.L. Moody
R.C Sproul
Andy Stanley
Thomas Watson

Thus the extreme revisionist ideas that only Ellen White knew the Bible well enough to make the distinctions between ceremonial law and moral law, or to know that the Ten Commandments are included in the moral law of God - is pure fiction.


And yet some "imagine" that this is an "SDA" POV only in their extreme revisionism.


Besides this law, commonly called the moral law, God was pleased do give the people of Israel ceremonial laws containing several typical ordinances. These ordinances were partly about their worship, and in them Christ was prefigured along with His attributes and qualities, His actions, His sufferings and His benefits. These ordinances also gave instructions about different moral duties. All of these ceremonial laws were appointed only until the time of reformation, when Jesus Christ the true Messiah and the only lawgiver, Who was furnished with power from the Father for this end, cancelled them and took them away.

Yet it comes directly from - The "Baptist Confession of Faith"


in Christ,

Bob

 

[from scratch]

I think defending the faith it a good exercise and for those who are now or a lot later reading these threads who are either SDA or interested in such they will see the truth of things and perhaps one person... just one will choose to listen to Paul instead of Ellen and have a life of Grace instead of Law in its place.

Or those considering the SDA religion for themselves.

 

[BobRyan]

Or those considering the SDA religion for themselves.

And yet some "imagine" that this is an "SDA" POV only in their extreme revisionism.


Besides this law, commonly called the moral law, God was pleased do give the people of Israel ceremonial laws containing several typical ordinances. These ordinances were partly about their worship, and in them Christ was prefigured along with His attributes and qualities, His actions, His sufferings and His benefits. These ordinances also gave instructions about different moral duties. All of these ceremonial laws were appointed only until the time of reformation, when Jesus Christ the true Messiah and the only lawgiver, Who was furnished with power from the Father for this end, cancelled them and took them away.

Yet it comes directly from - The "Baptist Confession of Faith"

 

[BobRyan]

Bob, the division of 'moral' versus 'ceremonial' you imposed on the Law is artificial. Had you responded to the pertinent content of my post in its entirety, the imposition of this artificial division would have rectified itself for you:

By contrast Paul contrasts the ceremonial law to the moral law contrasting circumcision to the moral law of God and saying "what matters is KEEPING the Commandments of God" 1Cor 7:19

Here is how the sunday sources listed admit to this Bible detail.


Besides this law, commonly called the moral law, God was pleased do give the people of Israel ceremonial laws containing several typical ordinances. These ordinances were partly about their worship, and in them Christ was prefigured along with His attributes and qualities, His actions, His sufferings and His benefits. These ordinances also gave instructions about different moral duties. All of these ceremonial laws were appointed only until the time of reformation, when Jesus Christ the true Messiah and the only lawgiver, Who was furnished with power from the Father for this end, cancelled them and took them away.

This in both in the WCF and the BCF - The "Baptist Confession of Faith"


in Christ,

Bob

 

[from scratch]

That is false as Paul points out in 1Cor 7:19 when contrasting the ceremonial law to the moral law of God Paul says circumcision does not matter "but what matters is KEEPING the Law of God".

Details matter.

This point is so obvious that even Sunday Sources listed agree with it.

Notice carefully -- the details.

We've done as requested and noticed the details. You're not free to imply the Christian is obligated to keep the law for salvation here. Paul says very clearly no to the law for the Christian.

Now we are delivered form the law and the multiple not under the law phrases found in his writings.

We're led by the Spirit and not the law.

 

[BobRyan]

The weekly sabbath is listed first among the feasts and convocations in Leviticus 23.

Lev 23:3 The WEEKLY Sabbath is a "day of solemn assembly" not feasting, not annual, a day of "holy convocation" not feasting ,,, not annual.

Lev 23:4 HERE are the feasts of the Lord -- and then comes the annual feasts and Sabbaths.

The remainder of your post is dealt with point by point in my prior posts yesterday - no sense in repeating them until you address the responses waiting for your post.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Originally Posted by VictorC

Bob, the division of 'moral' versus 'ceremonial' you imposed on the Law is artificial. Had you responded to the pertinent content of my post in its entirety, the imposition of this artificial division would have rectified itself for you:
​

By contrast Paul contrasts the ceremonial law to the moral law contrasting circumcision to the moral law of God and saying "what matters is KEEPING the Commandments of God" 1Cor 7:19

Here is how the sunday sources listed admit to this Bible detail.


Besides this law, commonly called the moral law, God was pleased do give the people of Israel ceremonial laws containing several typical ordinances. These ordinances were partly about their worship, and in them Christ was prefigured along with His attributes and qualities, His actions, His sufferings and His benefits. These ordinances also gave instructions about different moral duties. All of these ceremonial laws were appointed only until the time of reformation, when Jesus Christ the true Messiah and the only lawgiver, Who was furnished with power from the Father for this end, cancelled them and took them away.

This in both in the WCF and the BCF - The "Baptist Confession of Faith"

We've done as requested and noticed the details.

That would be a welcomed change - which detail have you addressed?

in Christ,

Bob

 

[from scratch]

And yet some "imagine" that this is an "SDA" POV only in their extreme revisionism.


Besides this law, commonly called the moral law, God was pleased do give the people of Israel ceremonial laws containing several typical ordinances. These ordinances were partly about their worship, and in them Christ was prefigured along with His attributes and qualities, His actions, His sufferings and His benefits. These ordinances also gave instructions about different moral duties. All of these ceremonial laws were appointed only until the time of reformation, when Jesus Christ the true Messiah and the only lawgiver, Who was furnished with power from the Father for this end, cancelled them and took them away.

Yet it comes directly from - The "Baptist Confession of Faith"

The emphasis of the Old Testament is obedience to the law which prevents sin. The idea of the New Testament is freedom from sin by freedom from the law by the leading of the Spirit. God the Holy Spirit won't lead one to sin nor does The Holy Spirit lead one to the law. Remember sin was before the law. Sin (including disobedience - rebellion) wasn't created by the law.

 

[BobRyan]

Paul says very clearly no to the law for the Christian.
.

As we all know --Paul says this.
[FONT=&quot]
1. Paul never commands gentiles to "Love God WITH ALL your heart".
2. Paul never commands gentiles "not to take God's name in vain"
3. Paul never commands gentiles to ignore the writings of Moses.
4. Paul DOES tell gentiles that Moses' writings are still authoritative scripture in 1Cor 9:8-9 and 1Tim 5:18 and binding as being "Law" and as being "scripture".
5. Paul quotes Moses TEN Commandments Eph 6:2. Full 5th commandment
6. Paul DOES teach that there remains therefore a "Sabbath rest for the people of God" Hebrews 4.
7. Paul DOES tell gentiles that "what matters is KEEPING the Commandments of GOD" 1 Cor 7:19
8. Paul does tell gentiles "it is not the HEARERS of the Law that are just before God but the DOERS of the Law will be justifIED... on the day when according to my GOSPEL God will judge all mankind" Rom 2:13-16
9. Paul DOES ask that gentiles consider the doctrine of LAW "Do we then make void the LAW of God by our faith? God forbid! In fact we establish the Law of God" Rom 3:31
10. Paul DOES tell gentiles that it is only the lost who will "not subject themselves to the LAw of God neither indeed CAN they" Rom 8:6-8
11. Paul DOES tell gentiles that "The Law" is in fact "The LAW of Moses" and is to be used for testing doctrine 1Cor 9:8-9
12. Paul DOES tell gentiles that the OT text is to be used for Doctrine 2Tim 3:16[/FONT]

 

[BobRyan]

The emphasis of the Old Testament is obedience to the law which prevents sin. The idea of the New Testament is freedom from sin by freedom from the law by the leading of the Spirit. God the Holy Spirit won't lead one to sin nor does The Holy Spirit lead one to the law. Remember sin was before the law. Sin (including disobedience - rebellion) wasn't created by the law.

your speculation goes directly against the Bible.

The Holy Spirit causes the New Birth and brings us under the New Covenant where the "Law is WRITTEN on the heart and the mind" Heb 8.

The Holy Spirit authored the words "Do we then make void the Law of God by our faith? God forbid! In fact we ESTABLISH the Law of God" Rom 3:31

The Holy Spirit authored the words "The SAINTS KEEP the Commandments of God AND Their faith in Jesus". Rev 14:12

The Holy Spirit authored the words "Sin is transgression of the Law" 1John 3:4.

In Romans 7 Paul says that after being converted he came into agreement with the Law as being "holy just and good" and then "with my mind I serve the Law of God".

What "spirit" did you think was leading us to be at war with the words of the Holy Spirit?

I think the Baptist Confession of Faith - came closer to the truth on this point.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[from scratch]

your speculation goes directly against the Bible.

The Holy Spirit causes the New Birth and brings us under the New Covenant where the "Law is WRITTEN on the heart and the mind" Heb 8.

The Holy Spirit authored the words "Do we then make void the Law of God by our faith? God forbid! In fact we ESTABLISH the Law of God" Rom 3:31

The Holy Spirit authored the words "The SAINTS KEEP the Commandments of God AND Their faith in Jesus". Rev 14:12

The Holy Spirit authored the words "Sin is transgression of the Law" 1John 3:4.

In Romans 7 Paul says that after being converted he came into agreement with the Law as being "holy just and good" and then "with my mind I serve the Law of God".

What "spirit" did you think was leading us to be at war with the words of the Holy Spirit?

I think the Baptist Confession of Faith - came closer to the truth on this point.

in Christ,

Bob

Speculation? Oh my.

Why do you post half verses? Is it to avoid the truth? Is it the same reason others verses are ignored?

 

[VictorC]

By contrast Paul contrasts the ceremonial law to the moral law contrasting circumcision to the moral law of God and saying "what matters is KEEPING the Commandments of God" 1Cor 7:19

Put the verse back into its context, and you would discover that the Law that ordained circumcision (Leviticus 12:3) is gone, and what remains is keeping the commandments of God - revolving around slavery and Who you belong to. Besides, those who aren't circumcised aren't permitted to keep the sabbaths. Sound bites damage your credibility in ways you don't perceive.

Here is how the sunday sources listed admit to this Bible detail.


Besides this law, commonly called the moral law, God was pleased do give the people of Israel ceremonial laws containing several typical ordinances. These ordinances were partly about their worship, and in them Christ was prefigured along with His attributes and qualities, His actions, His sufferings and His benefits. These ordinances also gave instructions about different moral duties. All of these ceremonial laws were appointed only until the time of reformation, when Jesus Christ the true Messiah and the only lawgiver, Who was furnished with power from the Father for this end, cancelled them and took them away.

This in both in the WCF and the BCF - The "Baptist Confession of Faith"


in Christ,

Bob

Bob, is there anything I can do to garner interest in the Law on your part?
To this day you've been running from it as if in morbid fear. Replacing the Law with carnal opinions you're obsessed with repeating on the forum doesn't dissuade the impression that you're terrified of the Law.

The Law isn't going to bite you. It is a faithful Witness we can rely on (Romans 3:21), and the questions you keep running away from are given as a foundation you can learn from.

What is the significance of the burnt offerings?
What happened to the ordinances that drove these offerings?
What happened to the ordinances contained within the 'first'?

There isn't anything in the Law that is other than 'moral'. None of it is 'immoral'. All of it serves an ordained purpose - even the ordinances that God declared He has no pleasure in. Many of these are prophetic in nature, and this includes the sabbath. It is designed to lead you to a greater reality, the reason the inspired Author of Scripture refers to it as a 'shadow'. But unless you handle this morbid dread you show for the Law, it is unlikely you're ever going to discover what it is.

 

[from scratch]

By contrast Paul contrasts the ceremonial law to the moral law contrasting circumcision to the moral law of God and saying "what matters is KEEPING the Commandments of God" 1Cor 7:19

Here is how the sunday sources listed admit to this Bible detail.


Besides this law, commonly called the moral law, God was pleased do give the people of Israel ceremonial laws containing several typical ordinances. These ordinances were partly about their worship, and in them Christ was prefigured along with His attributes and qualities, His actions, His sufferings and His benefits. These ordinances also gave instructions about different moral duties. All of these ceremonial laws were appointed only until the time of reformation, when Jesus Christ the true Messiah and the only lawgiver, Who was furnished with power from the Father for this end, cancelled them and took them away.

This in both in the WCF and the BCF - The "Baptist Confession of Faith"



That would be a welcomed change - which detail have you addressed?

in Christ,

Bob

Please read what I said.

Let me ask you which detail you think I missed?

 

[mmksparbud]

I didn't know where to post this--not that savy!---I've been without a computer for quite a while, I got a vicious bug that ended up requiring them to just gut the computer and restore it to new--to 2005 when I bought it--lost everything and have had to get everything back and it took forever, and then I made a booboo and had no internet connection for several more days till a tech came out and figured out in 2 min what those "high tech" techs couldn't figure out in 2days!!--
I had lots of security, all working. Apparently these guys have spent all their time figuring out how to mess up other peoples lives!!--These new viruses hit your security systems first--over and out--they go right for the jugular and there is no system that works 100%--great. It cost me $70.00 only because I wasn't stupid enough to fall for their scam to get my credit card so they could "activate" my system to get rid of this virus (that they gave me!)--I do wish they would get a useful hobby if not a job!!
This has done nothing to improve my disposition, which was already going downhill (and I got an official reprimand for loosing my temper at somebody on here!)--
I'm not sure about continueing here--I believe I was just going on here when the virus hit--but I can't remember for sure. How can you protect yourself when the first thing they do is render your protection useless??!!

I see the endless discussion on the Sabbath is still going strong--for now I shall butt out--maybe permanently--you all have fun, I may check in one more time.----God rules, Satan drools!!!

 

[BobRyan]

By contrast Paul contrasts the ceremonial law to the moral law contrasting circumcision to the moral law of God and saying "what matters is KEEPING the Commandments of God" 1Cor 7:19

Put the verse back into its context, and you would discover that the Law that ordained circumcision (Leviticus 12:3) is gone,

Which was my point - in 1Cor 7:19 Paul contrasts the ceremonial law to the Commandments of God - the Moral law.

The very idea some here were at war against.

And as God said in Is 66:23 and Mark 2:27 the Sabbath is for "ALL MANKIND" by contrast to the ceremonial laws.

One we embrace the text instead looking for "any ol excuse will do" to avoid it - they all make sense and fit together.

Bob, is there anything I can do to garner interest in the Law on your part?

I did not realize that this was your interest. I have to say you have succeeded beyond all doubt -- if that was your goal.

There isn't anything in the Law that is other than 'moral'.

Sadly for your argument - as we see in 1Cor 7:19 and as is pointed out by a number of even sunday sources - there is in fact a distinction between the moral law of God binding on "all mankind" Is 66:23 and that which is ceremonial. The fact that something is ceremonial does make it "immoral" as the red herring you tossed out appears to have suggested.

I realize this Bible details does not fit the man-made-traditions that some hold to - but a number of Sunday Sources - have figured this out "anyway".

Thus it is not SDAs alone that are noticing the following "inconvenient Bible detail" ---

Besides this law, commonly called the moral law, God was pleased do give the people of Israel ceremonial laws containing several typical ordinances. These ordinances were partly about their worship, and in them Christ was prefigured along with His attributes and qualities, His actions, His sufferings and His benefits. These ordinances also gave instructions about different moral duties. All of these ceremonial laws were appointed only until the time of reformation, when Jesus Christ the true Messiah and the only lawgiver, Who was furnished with power from the Father for this end, cancelled them and took them away.

This idea is found both in the WCF and the BCF - The "Baptist Confession of Faith"

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Sorry to hear about the computer problems -- hope you are felling better.