Jewish Ethnocentrism

[Messianic Jewboy]

I do believe that Torah observance is key. So what? Y'shua didn't say, "If you love me, don't keep my mitzvot", did He?

Romans 4:9-12. Paul's theology is inclusion based on Abraham not being a spiritual son of Israel.

 

[annier]

Romans 4:9-12. Paul's theology is inclusion based on Abraham not being a spiritual son of Israel.

oops sorry forgot mj only

 

[Messianic Jewboy]

This is true.
Gal 3:17 And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.
18 For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise.

Yes and Galatians 3:29

"Also, if you belong to the Messiah, you are seed of Avraham and heirs according to the promise."

 

[Yahudim]

Hey look everyone! We're playing theological whack-a-mole. Anyone can play!

Go ahead Marc. What about Romans 4? What about Galatians 3? Go ahead. Explain exactly what these verses mean to you. Answer two questions when you do. What was the circumcision Paul spoke of in Romans 4:9-12? What was the promise of your Galatians proof text? Define your terms you slippery son of a gun! Then we will talk.

This is true.
Gal 3:17 And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.
18 For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise.

Yes and Galatians 3:29

"Also, if you belong to the Messiah, you are seed of Avraham and heirs according to the promise."

 

[Messianic Jewboy]

Hey look everyone! We're playing theological whack-a-mole. Anyone can play!

Go ahead Marc. What about Romans 4? What about Galatians 3? Go ahead. Explain exactly what these verses mean to you. Answer two questions when you do. What was the circumcision Paul spoke of in Romans 4:9-12? What was the promise of your Galatians proof text? Define your terms you slippery son of a gun! Then we will talk.

Abraham being declared righteous had nothing to do with keep the Law of Moses is the point. When was Abraham declared righteous? When he was uncircumcised. It's the promise to Abraham NOT the Torah(Law of Moses) that you become partaker of the promise. And same with Jews. The Abrahamic covenant is unconditional. It the Abrahamic covenant that joins both peoples together; there is neither Jew or Greek....we are equal 110% in terms of partaker of the promise.

 

[Messianic Jewboy]

Hey look everyone! We're playing theological whack-a-mole. Anyone can play!

Go ahead Marc. What about Romans 4? What about Galatians 3? Go ahead. Explain exactly what these verses mean to you. Answer two questions when you do. What was the circumcision Paul spoke of in Romans 4:9-12? What was the promise of your Galatians proof text? Define your terms you slippery son of a gun! Then we will talk.

Romans 4:9-12
10 but what state was he in when it was so credited — circumcision or uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision! 11 In fact, he received circumcision as a sign, as a seal of the righteousness he had been credited with on the ground of the trust he had while he was still uncircumcised. This happened so that he could be the father of every uncircumcised person who trusts and thus has righteousness credited to him, 12 and at the same time be the father of every circumcised person who not only has had a b’rit-milah, but also follows in the footsteps of the trust which Avraham avinu had when he was still uncircumcised.

1-Abraham is the father of every uncircumcised person who trusts(non Jews)
2-Abraham is also the father of every circumcised person who has had a Brit Milah AND also follows in the footsteps of Abraham(when he was still uncircumcised.
3-Therefore both from above are equally recipients and partakers of he Promise

What unites ALL equally 110% is Abraham. Paul says to the non Jews if you follow the footsteps of Abraham then you're Abraham's seed.

The Gospel has nothing to do with Torah or no Torah observance. I'm not sure if you made a mistake when you posted 'attached to Israel through the Torah...'

Even Paul in Galatians says WE(Jews) know we can't be justified by the Torah. We aren't even justified because we had a Brit Milah.

 

[Yahudim]

Wow! Posted too soon. Gimme a minute...

 

[Messianic Jewboy]

Here's a good blog post that explains it better than me...

Gentiles in the Messianic movement: Bnei Noach or Bnei Avraham? |

 

[Yahudim]

First off Marc, I want to thank you for your response. I think we have already made headway because now we can identify where we agree and set those issues aside.

Romans 4:9-12
10 but what state was he in when it was so credited — circumcision or uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision! 11 In fact, he received circumcision as a sign, as a seal of the righteousness he had been credited with on the ground of the trust he had while he was still uncircumcised. This happened so that he could be the father of every uncircumcised person who trusts and thus has righteousness credited to him, 12 and at the same time be the father of every circumcised person who not only has had a b’rit-milah, but also follows in the footsteps of the trust which Avraham avinu had when he was still uncircumcised.

1-Abraham is the father of every uncircumcised person who trusts(non Jews)
2-Abraham is also the father of every circumcised person who has had a Brit Milah AND also follows in the footsteps of Abraham(when he was still uncircumcised.
3-Therefore both from above are equally recipients and partakers of he Promise

What unites ALL equally 110% is Abraham. Paul says to the non Jews if you follow the footsteps of Abraham then you're Abraham's seed.

The Gospel has nothing to do with Torah or no Torah observance. I'm not sure if you made a mistake when you posted 'attached to Israel through the Torah...'

Even Paul in Galatians says WE(Jews) know we can't be justified by the Torah. We aren't even justified because we had a Brit Milah.

So far so good. We agree on almost everything. But you did not explain the what the "promise" of the Abrahamic covenant is. I know what I think it means, but I don't know what you think it means.

Also, part of what you say above has confused me. Please explain: "The Gospel has nothing to do with Torah or no Torah observance."

Thanks for engaging. This is much better that trading sound bites!

One more thing on a personal level. Seriously, no offence intended. But I have always taken the term 'Jewb*y' as an anti-Semitic pejorative. It has always been something I condemned and avoided. So why? This is like being on a civil rights forum and trying to hold a discussion with someone named Super N**ger. It's really offensive, y'know?

 

[Messianic Jewboy]

So far so good. We agree on almost everything. But you did not explain the what the "promise" of the Abrahamic covenant is. I know what I think it means, but I don't know what you think it means.

Genesis 12:3 " . . . for through you all the nations of the world will be blessed"

What is the blessing? To be legally exonerated and enter the Kingdom of God.

Also, part of what you say above has confused me. Please explain: "The Gospel has nothing to do with Torah or no Torah observance."

The unconditional promise of salvation to the nations, the crucified and risen Yeshua isn't conditioned to keeping of the Law of Moses and/or becoming a son of Israel because the promise came before.

Now people might say 'Marc that sounds find and dandy, but isn't the New Covenant only for Israel? If I'm only seed of Abraham and not Israel how can I be a partaker of the New Covenant?' Because you're the seed of Abraham and being the seed of Abraham you're a recipient of Genesis 12:3 " . . . for through you all the nations of the world will be blessed"

What makes Jew and Gentile common and one? Both are the seed of Abraham. Which is radical even today. Walk into a synagogue and say you're of Abraham's seed and see the reception. Was even radical in the 1st century.

 

[Yahudim]

Now we are down to the real issue. You think the promise of salvation is 'unconditional'. How does that work exactly?

Genesis 12:3 " . . . for through you all the nations of the world will be blessed"

What is the blessing? To be legally exonerated and enter the Kingdom of God.

The unconditional promise of salvation to the nations isn't conditioned to keeping of the Law of Moses because the promise came before.

 

[Messianic Jewboy]

Now we are down to the real issue. You think the promise of salvation is 'unconditional'. How does that work exactly?

The promise of Abraham's Seed(one) is unconditional and as I quoted other texts it's following the footsteps of Abraham(faith). This is how the nations are blessed.

 

[Yahudim]

Marc, you answered a question about faith; emulate Abraham. But you did not address salvation:
Is salvation found in following Abraham or Y'shua?

The promise of Abraham's Seed(one) is unconditional and as I quoted other texts it's following the footsteps of Abraham(faith). This is how the nations are blessed.

 

[Messianic Jewboy]

Marc, you answered a question about faith; emulate Abraham. But you did not address salvation:
Is salvation found in following Abraham or Y'shua?

First my posts are not intended about particulars of salvation, whether or not salvation is conditional etc etc, who salvation is found in etc.

Paul's says if you are in Christ then you are Abraham's seed and heirs according to the promise. And I did answer what the promise was. You don't have to become a son of Israel to be a recipient of the promise in Christ. The Apostle's without a doubt considered non Jews sons of Abraham in a spiritual sense(even Paul said it). All believers are sons of Abraham through faith that's what unites us. Jews happen to be sons of Israel which doesn't make us better or should cause us to boast or make separation.

What united us is being sons of Abraham whether it's spiritually or physically it doesn't matter. This is how WE are included, this is inclusion. The stuff you posted about Messianic leaders, organizations, congregations is not in line with I think Messianic Judaism is. These organizations forgot that what unites is 'if we are in Christ we are Abraham's seed'.

My comments were directed at your comment about 'it's through the Torah...' And I even commented that you possibly made a mistake on the post.

 

[Gxg (G²)]

The promise of Abraham's Seed(one) is unconditional and as I quoted other texts it's following the footsteps of Abraham(faith). This is how the nations are blessed.

In Isaiah 32:2, God is described as a hiding place from the wind and a cover from the tempest, as rivers of water in a dry place, as a shadow of a great rock in a weary land. For the OT believer, God was for them a hiding place from the wind, a cover from the tempest, and a refuge.... Their faith is the same as our faith, as we now know it is Christ who provides that shelter. Nevertheless, at that time they were looking for a shelter in the same way. Anyone who cried out to God for shelter and came to him in Old Testament times would be saved. Today, God has made provision through his Son Jesus. They didn’t know the details then, but all they had to know was that God was merciful and if they cast themselves on him then he would show mercy.

Jesus says, “Come to Me, all you who labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.” That is what Abraham did. He came to God and demonstrated his faith by following God’s commands, and God gave him rest....and that rest comes from believing in Yeshua, as the Lord noted multiple times:

Very truly I tell you, the one who believes has eternal life - John 6:57

John 3:36
Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God's wrath remains on them.

Jesus told His fellow Jews that if they knew the Father, they would know Him also, and those who rejected Him rejected the Father as well (see Luke 10:16; John 5:36-47; cf. also 9:39-41). In keeping with this, John wrote that “he who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life,” and that “no one who denies the Son has the Father; whoever acknowledges the Son has the Father also” (1 John 5:12; 2:23).


Paul had “great sorrow and unceasing anguish” in his heart since many of his people were not saved (see Romans 9:2), including those whom he said were “zealous for God, but their zeal is not based on knowledge” (Romans 10:2). It was for those very people that he prayed (see Romans 10:1), “Since they did not know the righteousness that comes from God and sought to establish their own, they did not submit to God’s righteousness” (Romans 10:3).

According to Paul, despite the religious zeal of the Jewish people, they failed to understand the gift of God’s righteousness and therefore “his heart’s desire and prayer to God for [them was] that they may be saved” (Romans 10:1)..for even Jewish people who are zealous for God (Romans 10:2) and are pursuing a law of righteousness (9:31; 10:3) are in need of salvation through Yeshua.

And when we trust in Yeshua, we are doing as Abraham did and what Abraham was promised when it came to being Children of Abraham. For places with good basic review on the issue, one can go to God's Promise to Abraham's Offspring: Singular or Plural?

 

[Messianic Jewboy]

And when we trust in Yeshua, we are doing as Abraham did and what Abraham was promised when it came to being Children of Abraham. For places with good basic review on the issue, one can go to God's Promise to Abraham's Offspring: Singular or Plural?

This is my point that I hope to stay on track.

This is from that article...

"Paul was simply reiterating the fact that Jesus, as a son of Abraham, was the fulfillment of God’s promise to Abraham that all the nations would be blessed through one specific line, i.e. the nation of Israel. As Jesus himself said, salvation would come from the Jews since God had sent his Son to be born as a Jew in order to redeem the world:"

And the points I was trying to get across was that redemption isn't through the Torah/becoming a son of Israel.

 

[Gxg (G²)]

Romans 4:9-12
10 but what state was he in when it was so credited — circumcision or uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision! 11 In fact, he received circumcision as a sign, as a seal of the righteousness he had been credited with on the ground of the trust he had while he was still uncircumcised. This happened so that he could be the father of every uncircumcised person who trusts and thus has righteousness credited to him, 12 and at the same time be the father of every circumcised person who not only has had a b’rit-milah, but also follows in the footsteps of the trust which Avraham avinu had when he was still uncircumcised.

1-Abraham is the father of every uncircumcised person who trusts(non Jews)
2-Abraham is also the father of every circumcised person who has had a Brit Milah AND also follows in the footsteps of Abraham(when he was still uncircumcised.
3-Therefore both from above are equally recipients and partakers of he Promise

What unites ALL equally 110% is Abraham. Paul says to the non Jews if you follow the footsteps of Abraham then you're Abraham's seed.

True ''

James Pyles noted some of the same issues in a series he did - as seen in The Equality Puzzle, Part 3 | Morning Meditations and his article entitled "Neither Jew Nor Greek"...Messianic Jew Ron Cantor did some good presentation as well

When it comes to inclusion, I think it is very noteworthy to keep in mind the example of Jesus. John was one of the very last New Testament books to be written. But the gospel seems to draw on even more Jewish background than the Synoptics. The interaction with the Samaritan woman at the well is a great example since it involves nuanced arguments that would go over the heads of anyone who hasn't picked up some Hebrew history - and Jesus is very much Jewish in John's gospel. But it also has the strongest statements from Jesus about His mission being extended to the Gentiles. ..

Meanwhile the disciples were urging him, saying, “Rabbi, eat.” But he said to them, “I have food to eat that you do not know about.” So the disciples said to one another, “Has anyone brought him something to eat?” Jesus said to them, “My food is to do the will of him who sent me and to accomplish his work. Do you not say, ‘There are yet four months, then comes the harvest’? Look, I tell you, lift up your eyes, and see that the fields are white for harvest. Already the one who reaps is receiving wages and gathering fruit for eternal life, so that sower and reaper may rejoice together. For here the saying holds true, ‘One sows and another reaps.’ I sent you to reap that for which you did not labor. Others have labored, and you have entered into their labor.” Many Samaritans from that town believed in him because of the woman's testimony, “He told me all that I ever did.” So when the Samaritans came to him, they asked him to stay with them, and he stayed there two days. And many more believed because of his word. They said to the woman, “It is no longer because of what you said that we believe, for we have heard for ourselves, and we know that this is indeed the Savior of the world.—John 4:31-42 (ESV)

At that moment, Jesus would have been indicating Samaritan fields and perhaps even the Samaritan people who came to Him over then next two days.

During his life, Jesus focused primarily on interacting with his fellow Jews, but did not shy away from interactions with Gentiles when they crossed paths. Immediately after Christ's death and resurrection, the church understood her mission to reach beyond the cultural borders of the Hebrews to all people groups.

And whenever you see Jesus witnessing to Gentiles, you never see him note at any point that they had to do all the things the Jews did historically in order to believe or trust in the Messiah - it was always about placing their faith in Christ....and yet the Gentiles were allowed to remain as Gentiles while still simply proclaiming what Christ had done for them...as noted before:

He came to Israel first yes. So I would agree he "originally" came to Israel only. If not he would not have come to Israel first.

He sent his disciples to Israel first also. They were continuing John's baptism to the Jew's.
Mt 3:7 But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?
Lu 3:7 Then said he to the multitude that came forth to be baptized of him, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?


He sent his disciples to all nations. So Israel first, then the nations.

Christ is the light to the world.

It's not really accurate when saying Christ NEVER sent His disciples to the Gentiles even in the midst of him telling them to go to the Israelites first.

The man in Luke 9 (who was casting out demons in the name of Christ) comes immediately to mind with the way He operated. For we REALLY have no idea of the fullness of what Christ did with others OUTSIDE of the 12 - and we shouldn't be surprised that He did things.....such as telling the 12 initially to not go amongst the Gentiles in ministry and to go to the Jews first....and yet STILL doing extensive ministry amongst the Gentiles.

And there were already Gentiles whom the Lord utilized as missionaries of His Gospel, as they were not allowed to be seen publically with the apostles wherever he went. In example, with the Demoniac he healed - as Jesus sent him away with purpose. ...for as the text says,

“ Mark 5:1

Jesus Restores a Demon-Possessed Man

5 They went across the lake to the region of the Gerasenes.[a] 2 When Jesus got out of the boat, a man with an impure spirit came from the tombs to meet him. 3 This man lived in the tombs, and no one could bind him anymore, not even with a chain. 4 For he had often been chained hand and foot, but he tore the chains apart and broke the irons on his feet. No one was strong enough to subdue him. 5 Night and day among the tombs and in the hills he would cry out and cut himself with stones.

6 When he saw Jesus from a distance, he ran and fell on his knees in front of him. 7 He shouted at the top of his voice, “What do you want with me, Jesus, Son of the Most High God? In God’s name don’t torture me!” 8 For Jesus had said to him, “Come out of this man, you impure spirit!”

9 Then Jesus asked him, “What is your name?”

“My name is Legion,” he replied, “for we are many.” 10 And he begged Jesus again and again not to send them out of the area.

11 A large herd of pigs was feeding on the nearby hillside. 12 The demons begged Jesus, “Send us among the pigs; allow us to go into them.” 13 He gave them permission, and the impure spirits came out and went into the pigs. The herd, about two thousand in number, rushed down the steep bank into the lake and were drowned.

14 Those tending the pigs ran off and reported this in the town and countryside, and the people went out to see what had happened. 15 When they came to Jesus, they saw the man who had been possessed by the legion of demons, sitting there, dressed and in his right mind; and they were afraid. 16 Those who had seen it told the people what had happened to the demon-possessed man—and told about the pigs as well. 17 Then the people began to plead with Jesus to leave their region.

As Jesus was getting into the boat, the man who had been demon-possessed begged to go with him.19 Jesus did not let him, but said, Go home to your own people and tell them how much the Lord has done for you, and how he has had mercy on you.” (Mark 5:19 / Mark 5:1 /Mark 5:20 ).

​

The next time Jesus came to the region, there were some 4,000 others waiting to hear from Him (Mark 7:31/Mark 8.1). ..and the man, as a Gentile, did what he did in reaching OTHER Gentiles where they were at/telling them of Jesus in a way Gentiles could understand.

Surely this man played a key role in creating this second scene by his faithful witness. As an aside (and as mentionend more in-depth in #45 ), you have to wonder - was there any follow up with the man and the Lord? Surely there had to have been some sort of encouragement for him in his work if he struggled - and as the Lord is able to communicate with others beyond speaking one on one/in person, I'd not be surprised if Christ had dialouges with him via the Holy Spirit or messengers while the other apostles were busy doing other things....

But at the end of the day, what's present is the fact that the Lord reached out to this Gentile in the midst of his claims of not going to the Gentiles first - and this again was simply one event amongst several others. The Messiah in His work of deliverance was truly a Light to others....
__________________

The same dynamic of knowing the Lord in being saved/following Him is also noted in the story of Naaman the Syrian (from the nation of Aram where Syria is at) - from 2 Kings 5 whom Christ referenced later on when it came to the people he chose to interact with and saying what it meant to follow the Lord:

Luke 4:18

Jesus Rejected at Nazareth

16 So He came to Nazareth, where He had been brought up. And as His custom was, He went into the synagogue on the Sabbath day, and stood up to read. 17 And He was handed the book of the prophet Isaiah. And when He had opened the book, He found the place where it was written:

18 “The Spirit of the Lord is upon Me,
Because He has anointed Me
To preach the gospel to the poor;
He has sent Me to heal the brokenhearted,[j]
To proclaim liberty to the captives
And recovery of sight to the blind,
To set at liberty those who are oppressed;
19 To proclaim the acceptable year of the Lord.”[k]
​

20 Then He closed the book, and gave it back to the attendant and sat down. And the eyes of all who were in the synagogue were fixed on Him. 21 And He began to say to them, “Today this Scripture is fulfilled in your hearing.” 22 So all bore witness to Him, and marveled at the gracious words which proceeded out of His mouth. And they said, “Is this not Joseph’s son?”


23 He said to them, “You will surely say this proverb to Me, ‘Physician, heal yourself! Whatever we have heard done in Capernaum,[l] do also here in Your country.’” 24 Then He said, “Assuredly, I say to you, no prophet is accepted in his own country. 25 But I tell you truly, many widows were in Israel in the days of Elijah, when the heaven was shut up three years and six months, and there was a great famine throughout all the land; 26 but to none of them was Elijah sent except to Zarephath,[m] in the region of Sidon, to a woman who was a widow. 27 And many lepers were in Israel in the time of Elisha the prophet, and none of them was cleansed except Naaman the Syrian.”

Surprises and Disappointments-
​

​

 

[Gxg (G²)]

This is my point that I hope to stay on track.

This is from that article...

"Paul was simply reiterating the fact that Jesus, as a son of Abraham, was the fulfillment of God’s promise to Abraham that all the nations would be blessed through one specific line, i.e. the nation of Israel. As Jesus himself said, salvation would come from the Jews since God had sent his Son to be born as a Jew in order to redeem the world:"

And the points I was trying to get across was that redemption isn't through the Torah/becoming a son of Israel.

More than agree and understand

 

[Yahudim]

Marc, you brought it up remember? "The unconditional promise of salvation to the nations..." This is the supposed 'promise' of the covenant of Abraham. So it is about salvation, isn't it?

Now I have read those scriptures many times and I don't remember anyone saying anything like that - except you. So, does this mean that you will not answer the question? In case you forgot it's, "Is salvation found in following Abraham or Y'shua?"

First my posts are not intended about particulars of salvation, whether or not salvation is conditional etc etc, who salvation is found in etc.

Paul's says if you are in Christ then you are Abraham's seed and heirs according to the promise. And I did answer what the promise was. You don't have to become a son of Israel to be a recipient of the promise in Christ. The Apostle's without a doubt considered non Jews sons of Abraham in a spiritual sense(even Paul said it). All believers are sons of Abraham through faith that's what unites us. Jews happen to be sons of Israel which doesn't make us better or should cause us to boast or make separation.

What united us is being sons of Abraham whether it's spiritually or physically it doesn't matter. This is how WE are included, this is inclusion. The stuff you posted about Messianic leaders, organizations, congregations is not in line with I think Messianic Judaism is. These organizations forgot that what unites is 'if we are in Christ we are Abraham's seed'.

My comments were directed at your comment about 'it's through the Torah...' And I even commented that you possibly made a mistake on the post.