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Which New Testament Text has been kept pure?

cubanito

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Welcome back JR,

Don't be getting all sentimental on me; I can not be anyone but who I am. I believe myself to be a professional, and must always represent Christ in the proper manner. I give credit when credit is due, and reprove when reproof is needed.

I will continue to attempt to show why I believe, what I believe.

Jack

Sentimental my donkey! I acknowledge the FACT that you, The Koonz, have maintained a high level of discourse depite provocations.

I read your link and in fact spent some time reading about Semir and some others. There seems to be a lot of scuttlebut about some Jesuit conspiracy to discredit the bible as well. I am no conspiracy buff, but boy, this is another huge can of worms that just popped open when I followed your Semir-nal lead! (I love screwing around with names, it's part of my charming 6 year old personality)

Well, let's play link ping pong, and as I not only read your link but went down the Semir rabit hole (dark indeed that hole), here's a link back at you: What to Say When Someone Says, “The Bible Has Errors” | The Resurgence

This is fun. It is cutting into my profit margin as a self-employed physician though!

JR
 
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cubanito

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Oh, by the way, I recently employed a fully ordained Benedictine Monk who is on leave from his duties teaching High School Theology and History in Puerto Rico as my receptionist. I also have a secretary (part time) who is an ordained PCA pastor who preaches every Sunday.

So when I am not arguing The Koonz back into the anachronistic KJV corner he dwells in, I am debating ante-Nicene fathers with the monk or tryiing to convince the pastor to leave post-millenial old-style covenental and join me in mid-trib semi-dispensational premill modified New Covenant Theology. I am looking for an Eastern Orthodon nun to hire as a medical assistant and then I shall employ the Chalcedonian Trinity! This would be great since I am Nicean but not exactly Chalcedonian (I think Nestor and even Eutichius got a bum rap).

It is probably illegal to have as much fun as I do. Now I needs me get some money from Obamacare so go away for awhile Koonzy...

JR, who never needs to make things up because God has an overtime crew of angels scripting my life as a reality cable show in Heaven
 
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Bob Carabbio

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"Where has God preserved His Words, and kept them pure?"

With the Holy Spirit, of course. There IS NO "Perfect Biblical record", there are THOUSANDS of "Manuscripts", and everything we have is a redacted version of some combination of 'em. There ARE NO "Original autographs".

Personally, I use the KJV - been using it for 65 years, and I know the "Work arounds" for the errors, areas of lousy translation, and archaic language. One Bible's as good as another. and the BEST TRANSLATION - is the one that you'll actually read. Simple as that,

The Holy Spirit WILL NOT "anoint", or "empower" ANYTHING that He didn't say.

The "Word of God" is whatever GOD SAYS, and He didn't go "Mute" 2000 years ago.
 
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"Where has God preserved His Words, and kept them pure?"

With the Holy Spirit, of course. There IS NO "Perfect Biblical record", there are THOUSANDS of "Manuscripts", and everything we have is a redacted version of some combination of 'em. There ARE NO "Original autographs".

Personally, I use the KJV - been using it for 65 years, and I know the "Work arounds" for the errors, areas of lousy translation, and archaic language. One Bible's as good as another. and the BEST TRANSLATION - is the one that you'll actually read. Simple as that,

The Holy Spirit WILL NOT "anoint", or "empower" ANYTHING that He didn't say.

The "Word of God" is whatever GOD SAYS, and He didn't go "Mute" 2000 years ago.


Where has God's word been preserved?

If we say, “With the Holy Spirit, of course.”, how then has God held us accountable of the obeying of His Word, if we do not have access to it? While some may say, “Ignorance of the law is no excuse”; this accountability is held because those who would claim “ignorance”, only do so because of their lack of desire to learn the law when it was/is AVAILABLE to them. The fact is (in the latter case above), the reason the law was not obeyed was because of rebelliousness against the law. Those people who were disobedient to the law, knew in their hearts the law was not in alignment with their evil desires, and therefore chose not to learn the 'letter' of the law. This does not change the fact that the 'law' was in fact available to them; hence, “ignorance of the law is no excuse”.

Any person who has any knowledge of the Scriptures knows that God has always been very specific as to what He has had to say. He is a God of great detail, and many times is repetitious in giving of details in His Word.

If we say, “There IS NO "Perfect Biblical record", We call God a liar. (It really is that simple.)

Psalm 12:6 & 7
6 The words of the LORD are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times. 7 Thou shalt keep them, O LORD, thou shalt preserve them from this generation for ever.

KJB Textual Technology

In the above link, Dr. Bednar does an eloquent job in presenting the rules of Hebrew grammar, in spite of the view of the competition.

If we say, “there are THOUSANDS of "Manuscripts", and everything we have is a redacted version of some combination of 'em.”, we show that we have the knowledge that there are in fact a multitude of manuscripts, but have the understanding that it is the duty of 'man' to preserve God's Word, thus ignoring the verses shown above. While there is an 'element' of truth in this statement, the overall 'implied understanding' of the statement is in error.

It is interesting that what while 'modern scholarship' acknowledges that there are thousands of Manuscripts which are in agreement, (known as the Majority Text) these Manuscripts are laid aside in spite of the fact that their own 'illustrations' say otherwise.

Reliability of the New Testament Text

The following excerpts were taken from the above site:

“This process of deducing the wording of the original text would be analogous to the following situation : ----- If the US Bureau of Standards had one (and only one) "yard-stick," made out of metal, which was the national standard of exactly one yard in length, but it was lost -----could we look at the lengths of yard-sticks across the country (copies of the standard) to reproduce another national-standard yard-stick which would be 99.9% accurate in length? Yes, we could, with a high degree of assurance, because we would consider wooden copies from paint-stores to be least reliable, moving right on up to metal copies in machine-shops as being probably be the most reliable and free from error. The better copies that all agree with one another would take priority over those with a slight degree of deviation in them. Copies with a higher amount of deviation from the vast majority, would be disregarded. ----In this way, we would assuredly be able to come up with a reproduction of the original standard that would be 99.99% accurate.


“Textual Criticism of ancient copies is employed fairly much the same way, with the result that the Greek text of the NT which we have today is most assuredly almost an exact copy of the original NT manuscripts. Norman Geisler and William Nix remark that "Only 40 lines (or 400 words) of the New Testament are in doubt." ( General Introduction to the Bible, Geisler & Nix, Chicago: Moody, 1968, p.367).”

Below the above statement, there is a box which states the following:

“(Therefore, NOTE: Of those "40 lines" which are even a little bit in question, 75% of those questionable lines come to about 300 words found in the last 12 verses of the Gospel of Mark 16. --So, if we leave Mark 16:9-20 out of our Bible-reading, very little is left in question at all. The remainder is about 99.8% accurate... and we know exactly which 100 words are in any question.”

If I understand what was just written, the 'scholars' (who wrote the words above) are stating that they “know exactly which 100 words are in any question.” Really? So then, why are there over 100 versions of the New Testament which differ in over 100 places?

This final excerpt followed the previous excerpt:

“Dr. F.F. Bruce comments about those few remaining words: "The variant readings about which any doubt remains among textual critics of the New Testament affect nomaterial question of historic fact or of Christian faith and practice."
--That is to say: There is no historical fact or essential doctrine of the Christian faith which is based upon any disputed reading in the NT."

One of the most (if not the most) debated texts of the New Testament is that commonly known as the Johannine Comma. 1 John 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

While the Doctrine of the Trinity/Deity of Christ may not be solely based on 1 John 5:7, 1 John 5:7 is a verse that clearly teaches this doctrine. I believe it is noteworthy to state that NO doctrine of the Bible is built on a single verse; rather, it is the collective testimony of multiple verses giving a like witness, which gives us true Bible doctrine. While the Deity of Christ is not stated in any other verse in the manner as it is in 1 John 5:7, it is clearly witnessed throughout the New Testament. Nevertheless, this is an example of 'modern scholarship' giving a 'common sense' example of how something should be done (and giving the implication this is what they have done), while all the while, they have been doing just the opposite, and then lying about it.

If we say, “There ARE NO "Original autographs".

We would be stating the truth, but that does not mean the “words” of the originals have been lost; that is why businesses make copies of important documents (so they don't loose what the original stated).

If we say, “The Holy Spirit WILL NOT "anoint", or "empower" ANYTHING that He didn't say.” we would be absolutely correct. Where are the great revivals of years gone by during the preaching of the King James Bible? When was the last time anyone has seen a revival such as the revivals of the 1700's through the 1800's, ending with the Great Welsh Revival of 1904 and 1905? The truth is that with the introduction of the American Standard Version of 1901, (which was an revision of the 1881 English Bible, and not a revision of the King James), God's abundant blessing of such revivals became a thing of the past.

If we say, “The "Word of God" is whatever GOD SAYS, and He didn't go "Mute" 2000 years ago.” I would be in agreement with you. It is modern scholarship that has taught that God went “Mute” 2000 years ago with the 'loss' of the 'originals'. I say 'fooy' to the scholars. People have lost respect for God's word being God's word, and that is precisely why the scholars have been able to 'edit' the Bible and get away with it for all these years. If people weren't to LAZY to do a little research, they would know a little bit more about the 'Bibles' they read. I was challenged in a thread concerning the validity of 1 John 5:7 (Does 1 John 5:7 Belong in the Bible?). In that thread I was presented with an outline by Doug Kutilek that was supposed to shut down the entire debate; rather, I presented established FACTS that completely refuted Mr. Kutilek's Outline. I have never stated in any way, shape, or form, that God went “Mute” 2000 years ago. As a matter of fact I have said just the opposite, He has preserved His Word perfectly, and has been speaking to those who have been faithful believers the entire time.

If you say, “Never have understood and never will understand why folks try to make something this simple so complicated.”, I would say, Welcome to modern scholarship. It is they who have taken us from simply taking God at His word, in the King James Bible, to where we are today. I am currently working on short writ giving a brief history of Textual Criticism and their effect on the scriptural teaching of the Divine Inspiration of the Scriptures. The purpose of this short writ is to show just how simple it is to do a little research and get the truth that is NOT being taught in Bible colleges today.

In my next post, (if I do not get delayed), I will address the question that begins this post.

Jack
 
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Jack Koons

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Where did God preserve His Word?

For an eloquent answer to this question, please feel free to visit the following site:

KJB Textual Technology


There are many 'essays' at the above site which are worthy of reading. While I am not in 100% agreement with Dr. Bednar, I do agree with him on the both the preservation and perfection of the King James Bible.

I must begin by stating that we must have a proper understanding of “inspiration” before we can understand preservation as a whole.

In order to understand “inspiration” I will share with you the wisdom of Dr. Thomas Cassidy.

HTML document

The following excerpts were taken from the above site:

“Inspiration is defined as that work of the Holy Spirit of God upon the minds, souls, and bodies of the Scripture writers which makes their writings the record of a progressive divine revelation. When God determined to give to His creation the Self-revelation that we today call the Bible, He selected the Prophets of the Old Testament, and the Apostles of the New Testament, and through the agency of His indwelling Holy Spirit so over came the sin nature of these men that the words which He selected from the reservoir of the culture, education, experience, and personality of the man were His chosen words, and no others. This process of inspiration was two fold: Verbal, the very words that God selected were the very words that best revealed the mind and will of God to His creation. Thus, every word so inspired was in fact, the Word of God. Plenary, the collection of words that we call the Bible is, in its whole, the complete Word of God, without error or contradiction. The entire Bible, regardless of subject matter, is the infallible, unfailing, Revelation of God.”

“The Verbal and Formal Inspiration position believes that first of all the Holy Spirit worked in the Prophets of the Old Testament and the Apostles of the New Testament in such a way that the very words of God were selected from the vocabulary of the man, taking into account his culture, education, and experience, and that not only the very words, but also the forms of the words, such as noun, pronoun, verb, adverb, singular, plural, etc., were written at the prompting of the Holy Spirit. This view is the only one that can give us a completely inspired, inerrant, infallible, preserved Bible, as well as account for such statements as Paul saying that the very form of a word was inspired by God for a specific purpose as in Galatians 3:16, and Christ saying in Matthew 5:18 that not only was each word inspired, but every letter of every word was inspired. The Scriptures of the Old and New Testaments are the perfect mirror of the Lord Jesus Christ, which reflects Him and leads us to Him. Authority resides in the Scriptures just as it does in Him. Just as all authority is given to Christ (Matthew 28:18), the living Word, all authority is bound up in the Scriptures, the reflection of Him, the written Word of God.

“Now comes the problem we face in fundamental circles today. What exactly was it that God inspired. Was it men? Was it manuscripts? Was it languages? One of the greatest failings of fundamentalism today is this confusion concerning the doctrine of inspiration. If you were to ask every independent, fundamental Baptist Pastor what it was that God inspired, most would reply "the original manuscripts." However, you can search the scriptures forever, and never find a reference to the "original manuscripts." But you will find, over and over again references to the "words" that God has spoken. God did not inspire men or manuscripts, He inspired words! God did not concern Himself with parchment, vellum, papyrus, and ink, but with words! It was, and still is, the words of God that are inspired. It makes absolutely no difference if those inspired words are written by the hand of Moses, Samuel, David, Daniel, Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, Paul, Peter, James, or if they were carefully copied by a copyist in his own handwriting, or if they are scrawled on the rest room wall! If they are the same words, they are God's words, and if they are God's words, they are inspired words!”

The reason I shared these words of Dr. Cassidy is quite simple, if we believe it was the “originals” that were inspired, than all is lost when the “originals” are lost. (I know that God has more foresight than that.) It is therefore necessary to understand that it is the 'words', and not the 'original documents' that are inspired. The next logical step then is preservation of the inspired words.

Again, I will share the words of Dr. Cassidy from the same site.

“The doctrine of preservation is one that is receiving much attention today, and has become as controversial as the doctrine of inspiration was fifty years ago, and will, in all probability have the same effect on Christendom. In the near future, the lines of demarcation will be more boldly drawn, and a new separatism will develop around the proper understanding of the doctrine of Bible preservation. Those who decide on a preserved Scripture and believe that the local "church of the living God [is] the pillar and ground of the truth" will be the fundamentalists of tomorrow, and those who continue to hold to the idea of a higher "critical" text, and the authority of so-called "scholars" to determine what is, and what is not the Word of God, will go the way of Liberal and Modernistic Christendom, into decline and eclipse. We are already seeing a tendency toward this decline in many of the Christian Colleges that were great preacher training schools in the past, but are now turning out more accountants or other professionals then they are preachers.

“We must first ask ourselves, does the Bible teach that God has promised to preserve His word? I contend that it does, and does so quite emphatically! I believe when God promises something, He keeps and performs that promise. In Psalm 12:6-7 God says: "The words of the LORD are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times. Thou shalt keep them, O LORD, thou shalt preserve them from this generation for ever." Here is a plain and simple statement concerning the doctrine of Bible preservation. Notice that God has not just promised to preserve His word, but has promised to preserve it from "this generation (the time of David) for ever." God has promised that every generation from the time of David until the end of eternity will have a preserved authoritative Bible. In Psalm 78:5-7 God states that he has established His testimony and appointed His law for the purpose of teaching each succeeding generation. Every generation has the promise of a preserved Bible, that they "not forget the works of God, but keep His commandments." "Forever, O LORD, thy word is settled in heaven," says the psalmist in Psalm 119:89. God's word has been settled, kept pure, preserved, according to this verse. Some have argued that it is settled in heaven, but not on earth! How foolish! God's word is a revelation from God to man. It is man that needs God's word, mankind right here on earth, not God, or the already redeemed in heaven. God has promised to preserve His word from generation to generation. Those generations are generated right here on earth, not in heaven! In Matthew 4:4, when Jesus was tempted by the Devil, He replied, "Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every Word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God." How can a man live by the Word of God, if he doesn't have it? In order for men and women to live by the Word of God, it must be available to them, God must have preserved it! By the way, I don't want to get too technical with you, but the word "written" is in the perfect tense, meaning that it was written in the past, and has continued right down to the time of Christ, and of course down to this present time also. In other words, God has preserved it!”

Have we all lost our common sense? This is exactly why I said in Part One concerning “Ignorance of the law is no excuse”. God's word (as He said it), must be available to people on planet Earth. This does not mean, God's word according to the scholars, it means God's word according to God.

Moving on:

There are two 'titles' which much be understood to understand preservation. The first, “The Traditional Text (of the Greek New Testament)”, and second, “The Traditional” readings (of the New Testament). The Traditional Text of the New Testament dates back to 450 AD., while the Traditional readings of the New Testament go back to at least 150 AD., with the witness of the Greek lectionaries, all of which supporting the Traditional Text.

The Traditional Text of the Greek New Testament are those Greek 'texts' which are of the Byzantine type, and are the majority of the Greek manuscripts. Bibles in other languages such as Latin, or Syrian, which date back to at least 150 AD. have the same 'type' of text (readings) as those found in the Greek Majority Text, and are therefore referred to as “Traditional readings”. As Dr. Bednar states in his article (given previously) the churches that remained faithful to God, God used to preserve His words; while those who were not, His word was not neither revered, not preserved. God then chose Desiderius Erasmus to compile these texts, and readings into one Greek text. He further used other men like William Tyndale, Theodore Beza, Robert Stephanus, so that when according to His time-table, He would have His men, (the King James translators), translate the Bible into the English language.

If you want a more detailed description, you'll have to read Dr. Cassidy's entire four-part article.

There are two statements made concerning the translation of the King James Bible which I will address in a later post; they are:

1) Erasmus’s Greek Text was done so quickly, it was of poor quality.

2) The King James Translators only had a few manuscripts, and therefore lacked the manuscripts needed to properly translate the Bible.

That's all for now.

Jack
 
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Jack Koons

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The following two statements are made quite frequently by opponents of the King James Bible. (As a matter of fact Dr. James White made the first statement in one of the YouTube videos I was presented in my thread about 1 John 5:7.[it was Post #44 in the thread “Does 1 John 5:7 Belong in the Bible?”]) I find it interesting that a man with Dr. White's education would resort to this kind of statement, when he knows that as it relates to the King James Bible, it is an entirely false statement.

1) Erasmus’s Greek Text was done so quickly, it was of poor quality.

2) The King James Translators only had a few manuscripts, and therefore lacked the manuscripts needed to properly translate the Bible.

First I will produce evidence that this is an argument used against the King James.

1) Erasmus’s Greek Text was done so quickly, it was of poor quality.

ERASMUS, HIS GREEK TEXT AND HIS THEOLOGY

The following excerpts were taken from the above site:

“The idea of editing and printing the Greek New Testament perhaps occurred to Erasmus as early as 1506 (cf. Froude, pp. 100, 117-18), though a revision of the Vulgate translation occupied his attention to a greater degree. In 1514, a Greek New Testament was printed as part of the Complutensian Polyglot being produced in Spain (a delay of eight years intervened before the Complutensian New Testament was actually published). A printer named Froben in Basle, Switzerland, learned of the Spanish- produced Greek New Testament and wished to publish one himself and beat the other into the marketplace. So Froben negotiated with Erasmus, who finally agreed to take part in the enterprise. Erasmus traveled to Basle and used what few Greek manuscripts were there as the basis of his text. Printing began in September or October, 1515, and was completed in March, 1516. The book was dedicated to Pope Leo X, and was duly copyrighted (see facsimile of title page in Schaff, p. 532).”

“The work on the Greek text was hastily and carelessly done. Erasmus' biographer Froude characterized Erasmus: "haste made him careless; and this fault always clung to him" (p. 8). Erasmus himself admitted that the work on his first edition "was done too hastily" (Froude, p. 189). He declared that the work was more precipitated than edited. Though Erasmus had spent fifteen years editing the works of Jerome and ten years in preparing a new Latin translation of the New Testament, he spent less than ten months, or rather part of ten months, in editing the Greek New Testament. The printer's work showed the haste of the production the book abounded in printer's errors, of which Scrivener said, "Erasmus' first edition is in that respect the most faulty book I know" (p. 296). Erasmus hated the tedium of proofreading and correcting his own books (Froude, p. 8).”

Erasmus' Greek Testaments - Fowler Bible Collection

The following excerpts were taken from the above site:

“Working with only a few Greek manuscripts (approximately 6), dating from the 12th century and later, Erasmus developed a composite Greek text of the New Testament alongside of a modified Latin translation of the same. This was published by John Froben of Basle, Switzerland in 1516 – the first published diglot Greek and Latin New Testament. This volume was hurriedly prepared and contained numerous typographical errors. A second edition with corrections was printed in 1519. The third edition printed in 1522 contained the “Comma Johanneum” of I John 5:7,8 based on a single 16th century Greek manuscript (Codex Montfortianus).”



2) The King James Translators only had a few manuscripts, and therefore lacked the manuscripts needed to properly translate the Bible.

ERASMUS, HIS GREEK TEXT AND HIS THEOLOGY

“In constructing and editing the text, Erasmus had the feeblest of manuscript resources. He chiefly used one manuscript of the Gospels, dating from the twelfth century, and one manuscript of Acts and the Epistles, also from the twelfth century. These he edited and corrected, using one or two additional manuscripts of each section, along with his Latin Vulgate. For Revelation, Erasmus had but one Greek manuscript which, though of better than average quality (so says Hort), yet lacked the last six verses of the book. To remedy this defect, Erasmus back-translated the last six verses of Revelation from Latin into Greek, with the result that the final verses of Revelation in his printed Greek text contain numerous Greek readings found in no Greek manuscript of any kind, and are therefore devoid of manuscript authority. (A list of these are given in Scrivener, Introduction to the Criticism of the New Testament, p. 296, n. 1, and Metzger, The Text of the New Testament, p. 100, n. 1).”

“Devoid of truth is the bold assertion made by Benjamin Wilkinson without supporting documentation, that "There were hundreds of manuscripts for Erasmus to examine, and he did (emphasis added); but he only used a few." Wilkinson gives the clear implication that "the few Erasmus used were typical, that is, after he had thoroughly balanced the evidence of many," he used "the few which displayed the balance" (Which Bible?, p. 143). Erasmus no doubt was familiar with other Greek New Testament manuscripts besides those used in constructing his text, but to assert that he made a thorough investigation of hundreds of manuscripts and chose those typical of his findings is to fabricate that which did not happen. That Erasmus did not carefully select manuscripts he had found to be typically Byzantine is obvious from the fact that among his very limited resources was manuscript 1, one of the most non-Byzantine of the minuscule manuscripts; add to this the fact that Erasmus' sole manuscript of Revelation lacked the last six verses altogether, and it becomes transparently obvious that Wilkinson has engaged here, as he very often does, in a flight of fancy and mere wishful thinking rather than serious historical research.”

Textual Problems with the King James - Bart Ehrman Christianity in Antiquity (CIA): The Bart Ehrman Blog

The following excerpts were taken from the above site:

“The first edition of the Greek NT to be published after the invention of printing was by the Rotterdam humanist Erasmus, whose 1516 edition went through several revisions over the years. Other publishers based their own editions on Erasmus, rather than doing a careful study of the surviving manuscripts themselves. Eventually it became such a standard text that it came to be known as the Textus Receptus (the “received text” – that is the text everyone used). Erasmus’s edition was based just on the few Greek manuscripts at his disposal, which were late medieval and that had the typical kinds of mistakes that one can find in late medieval manuscripts.”

Erasmus' Greek Testaments - Fowler Bible Collection

The following excerpts were taken from the above site:

“Working with only a few Greek manuscripts (approximately 6), dating from the 12th century and later, Erasmus developed a composite Greek text of the New Testament alongside of a modified Latin translation of the same. This was published by John Froben of Basle, Switzerland in 1516 – the first published diglot Greek and Latin New Testament. This volume was hurriedly prepared and contained numerous typographical errors. A second edition with corrections was printed in 1519. The third edition printed in 1522 contained the “Comma Johanneum” of I John 5:7,8 based on a single 16th century Greek manuscript (Codex Montfortianus).”

In the next post I will give evidence to the contrary of both points.

Jack
 
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Jack Koons

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The following two statements are made quite frequently by opponents of the King James Bible. (As a matter of fact Dr. James White made the first statement in one of the YouTube videos I was presented in my thread about 1 John 5:7.[it was Post #44 in the thread “Does 1 John 5:7 Belong in the Bible?”]) I find it interesting that a man with Dr. White's education would resort to this kind of statement, when he knows that as it relates to the King James Bible, it is an entirely false statement.

1) Erasmus’s Greek Text was done so quickly, it was of poor quality.

2) The King James Translators only had a few manuscripts, and therefore lacked the manuscripts needed to properly translate the Bible.

First I will produce evidence that this is an argument used against the King James.

1) Erasmus’s Greek Text was done so quickly, it was of poor quality.

ERASMUS, HIS GREEK TEXT AND HIS THEOLOGY

The following excerpts were taken from the above site:

“The idea of editing and printing the Greek New Testament perhaps occurred to Erasmus as early as 1506 (cf. Froude, pp. 100, 117-18), though a revision of the Vulgate translation occupied his attention to a greater degree. In 1514, a Greek New Testament was printed as part of the Complutensian Polyglot being produced in Spain (a delay of eight years intervened before the Complutensian New Testament was actually published). A printer named Froben in Basle, Switzerland, learned of the Spanish- produced Greek New Testament and wished to publish one himself and beat the other into the marketplace. So Froben negotiated with Erasmus, who finally agreed to take part in the enterprise. Erasmus traveled to Basle and used what few Greek manuscripts were there as the basis of his text. Printing began in September or October, 1515, and was completed in March, 1516. The book was dedicated to Pope Leo X, and was duly copyrighted (see facsimile of title page in Schaff, p. 532).”

“The work on the Greek text was hastily and carelessly done. Erasmus' biographer Froude characterized Erasmus: "haste made him careless; and this fault always clung to him" (p. 8). Erasmus himself admitted that the work on his first edition "was done too hastily" (Froude, p. 189). He declared that the work was more precipitated than edited. Though Erasmus had spent fifteen years editing the works of Jerome and ten years in preparing a new Latin translation of the New Testament, he spent less than ten months, or rather part of ten months, in editing the Greek New Testament. The printer's work showed the haste of the production the book abounded in printer's errors, of which Scrivener said, "Erasmus' first edition is in that respect the most faulty book I know" (p. 296). Erasmus hated the tedium of proofreading and correcting his own books (Froude, p. 8).”

Erasmus' Greek Testaments - Fowler Bible Collection

The following excerpts were taken from the above site:

“Working with only a few Greek manuscripts (approximately 6), dating from the 12th century and later, Erasmus developed a composite Greek text of the New Testament alongside of a modified Latin translation of the same. This was published by John Froben of Basle, Switzerland in 1516 – the first published diglot Greek and Latin New Testament. This volume was hurriedly prepared and contained numerous typographical errors. A second edition with corrections was printed in 1519. The third edition printed in 1522 contained the “Comma Johanneum” of I John 5:7,8 based on a single 16th century Greek manuscript (Codex Montfortianus).”



2) The King James Translators only had a few manuscripts, and therefore lacked the manuscripts needed to properly translate the Bible.

ERASMUS, HIS GREEK TEXT AND HIS THEOLOGY

“In constructing and editing the text, Erasmus had the feeblest of manuscript resources. He chiefly used one manuscript of the Gospels, dating from the twelfth century, and one manuscript of Acts and the Epistles, also from the twelfth century. These he edited and corrected, using one or two additional manuscripts of each section, along with his Latin Vulgate. For Revelation, Erasmus had but one Greek manuscript which, though of better than average quality (so says Hort), yet lacked the last six verses of the book. To remedy this defect, Erasmus back-translated the last six verses of Revelation from Latin into Greek, with the result that the final verses of Revelation in his printed Greek text contain numerous Greek readings found in no Greek manuscript of any kind, and are therefore devoid of manuscript authority. (A list of these are given in Scrivener, Introduction to the Criticism of the New Testament, p. 296, n. 1, and Metzger, The Text of the New Testament, p. 100, n. 1).”

“Devoid of truth is the bold assertion made by Benjamin Wilkinson without supporting documentation, that "There were hundreds of manuscripts for Erasmus to examine, and he did (emphasis added); but he only used a few." Wilkinson gives the clear implication that "the few Erasmus used were typical, that is, after he had thoroughly balanced the evidence of many," he used "the few which displayed the balance" (Which Bible?, p. 143). Erasmus no doubt was familiar with other Greek New Testament manuscripts besides those used in constructing his text, but to assert that he made a thorough investigation of hundreds of manuscripts and chose those typical of his findings is to fabricate that which did not happen. That Erasmus did not carefully select manuscripts he had found to be typically Byzantine is obvious from the fact that among his very limited resources was manuscript 1, one of the most non-Byzantine of the minuscule manuscripts; add to this the fact that Erasmus' sole manuscript of Revelation lacked the last six verses altogether, and it becomes transparently obvious that Wilkinson has engaged here, as he very often does, in a flight of fancy and mere wishful thinking rather than serious historical research.”

Textual Problems with the King James - Bart Ehrman Christianity in Antiquity (CIA): The Bart Ehrman Blog

The following excerpts were taken from the above site:

“The first edition of the Greek NT to be published after the invention of printing was by the Rotterdam humanist Erasmus, whose 1516 edition went through several revisions over the years. Other publishers based their own editions on Erasmus, rather than doing a careful study of the surviving manuscripts themselves. Eventually it became such a standard text that it came to be known as the Textus Receptus (the “received text” – that is the text everyone used). Erasmus’s edition was based just on the few Greek manuscripts at his disposal, which were late medieval and that had the typical kinds of mistakes that one can find in late medieval manuscripts.”

Erasmus' Greek Testaments - Fowler Bible Collection

The following excerpts were taken from the above site:

“Working with only a few Greek manuscripts (approximately 6), dating from the 12th century and later, Erasmus developed a composite Greek text of the New Testament alongside of a modified Latin translation of the same. This was published by John Froben of Basle, Switzerland in 1516 – the first published diglot Greek and Latin New Testament. This volume was hurriedly prepared and contained numerous typographical errors. A second edition with corrections was printed in 1519. The third edition printed in 1522 contained the “Comma Johanneum” of I John 5:7,8 based on a single 16th century Greek manuscript (Codex Montfortianus).”

In the next post I will give evidence to the contrary of both points.

Jack
 
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Jack Koons

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Whenever a subject is debated, each side presents the evidence they believe gives their position merit. If during the debate the evidence of one side is shown to be false, it is usually determined that the position holding the true evidence is the winner of the debate; and the matter is put to rest.

This however, is never the case when debating the either the KJV, any of the so-called "problem texts", or any of the so-called "contradictions". Each time a particular point of 'evidence' that is meant to "single-handedly" defeat the entire KJV position gets proven false, that defeat is brushed under the carpet, and attention is shifted to another piece of so-called 'evidence'.

My purpose here is to share the evidence that most never see (if they have, they are too stubborn to admit they have been taught something false).

The question I have for the readers of these threads is quite simple: How many time must the so-called "evidence" be proven wrong before a light comes on that says, Maybe I've been listening to the wrong evidence?!

Jack
 
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The first thing I must do is address why the opponents of the KJV say that Erasmus' Greek Text was rushed. The purpose of making this statement is to lead their readers to the belief that because the Greek text was rushed, it was of poor quality, after all, doesn't that make perfect sense?

If that is all there was to the truth of the story, it would make sense; however, that is not the total truth. I am going to say the same thing now that I say so often: the reason the oath taken in a court room is, "To tell the TRUTH, the WHOLE TRUTH, and, NOTHING BUT THE TRUTH (so help me God)", is because that 'oath' doesn't allow the truth to be twisted into a lie.

All the discussion about Erasmus' Greek Text being hurried to meet a deadline, and beat another Greek text to be the first Greek Text published would have absolutely no bearing on the King James, even if all of the above were true. Why? Because all that information is is only relative to the Erasmus' first Greek Text of 1516, it is not true of ANY of his later editions.

Let's look further at the facts:

1) Erasmus published five (5) Greek texts, not one (1).
2) Those Editions were:
1. 1516
2. 1519
3. 1522
4. 1527
5. 1535
3) There is debate as to whether William Tyndale used Erasmus' 3rd, or 4th Edition, along with Stephanus, and the translators of the KJV.

The point that is to be made here is quite simple: the so-called 'rushed' 1st Edition of Erasmus' Greek Text is NOT in the lineage of the KJV. Do the math, he had six years to edit the 3rd Edition, and eleven years for the 4th. So you see, all this fuss about his Greek text being rushed is moot.

Let me add this comment just for good measure; how much Erasmus edited each of his editions is irrelevant, the fact that he had time to thoroughly edit them to make any corrections, and or changes; and did so, is the only relevant point. While some modern scholars may not agree with the contents of his text, to say that the Greek text produced by Erasmus, (and later edited by others) was a 'rushed' Greek text is a severe twisting of the facts at best; and an outright lie at worst.

So much for the 'rushed Greek Text of Erasmus' theory.

Jack
 
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Jack Koons

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But what about the charge that Erasmus only having a few Greek manuscripts to work with? These are the MSS that he is said to have had:

Textus Receptus - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The following excerpt was taken from the above site:

"Erasmus' new work was published by Froben of Basel in 1516, becoming the first published Greek New Testament, the Novum Instrumentum omne, diligenter ab Erasmo Rot. Recognitum et Emendatum. He used manuscripts: 1, 1rK, 2e, 2ap, 4ap, 7, 817.[5] The second edition used the more familiar term Testamentum instead of Instrumentum, and eventually became a major source for Luther's German translation. In second edition (1519) Erasmus used also Minuscule 3.

"Typographical errors (attributed to the rush to complete the work) abounded in the published text."

I want you to notice how the writer names six MSS, then mentions the second edition, and then brings your attention back to the first edition. What the writer is doing by going back to the first edition is insinuating that the second edition shares the attributes of the first edition, because (as he puts it in parenthesis) "attributed to the rush to complete the work" abounded in the published text.

The problem is, once again, he is referring to the FIRST EDITION which is NOT in the lineage of the KJV! The same holds true here with the number of Greek MSS used by Erasmus in the LATER Editions of his Greek text.

Once again, by using the facts that may have been true about the first edition, the scholars insinuate that all of Erasmus' Greek texts were rushed, and done with limited resources. And once again, they are wrong.

Jack
 
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Bob Carabbio

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"If we say, “With the Holy Spirit, of course.”, how then has God held us accountable of the obeying of His Word, if we do not have access to it?"

What would make you believe that the Holy Spirit is NOT accessible to you???

And the KJV (and almost every other version) does a fine job in presenting the Historically preserved "Word of God" - but it's not "Perfect" as is easily demonstrable.

Simple as that.
 
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"If we say, “With the Holy Spirit, of course.”, how then has God held us accountable of the obeying of His Word, if we do not have access to it?"

What would make you believe that the Holy Spirit is NOT accessible to you???

And the KJV (and almost every other version) does a fine job in presenting the Historically preserved "Word of God" - but it's not "Perfect" as is easily demonstrable.

Simple as that.


First of all, I do believe that the Holy Spirit is accessible to me. But let us not put the cart before the horse.

Romams 1
13 Now I would not have you ignorant, brethren, that oftentimes I purposed to come unto you, (but was let hitherto,) that I might have some fruit among you also, even as among other Gentiles. 14 I am debtor both to the Greeks, and to the Barbarians; both to the wise, and to the unwise. 15 So, as much as in me is, I am ready to preach the gospel to you that are at Rome also. 16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. 17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith. 18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; 19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. 20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: 21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

Romans 10
13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. 14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? 15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things! 16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
1 Corinthians 2
9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him. 10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God. 11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God. 12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God. 13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual. 14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. 15 But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man. 16 For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.


We must first understand that God the Holy Spirit bears witness of Himself from without through His creation as stated in Romans Chapter One as seen above. Then the Holy Spirit continues to bear witness to us of the Gospel from without, through the preaching of the Word of God. Only after regeneration by the Holy Spirit, do we have Him working within us. Then I must ask, how does He work? He bears witness to that which is “written”, the Word of God. So while indeed you are correct that that the Holy Spirit does have access to us (both externally and internally after salvation), He must still have the written Word of God to 'bear witness to', (unless of course you are stating there is a type of personal “individual inspiration” taking place giving individuals the Word, afresh and anew).


The Holy Spirit bears witness to that which is already written. It is man that corrupted a great number of the Bibles available today. This however does in no way mean or even insinuate that God has not kept his word in preserving His Word perfectly.


“And the KJV (and almost every other version) does a fine job in presenting the Historically preserved "Word of God" - but it's not "Perfect" as is easily demonstrable.

Simple as that.”


Since you believe it “is easily demonstrable” that the Bible is not “Perfect”, Please demonstrate. But I will now use the EXACT argument used by scholars today for you to demonstrate “imperfection”; you must show me that NO English Bible, Hebrew text, Latin text, Greek text, or any other text is not the EXACT rendering of the “inspired original”.


Jack
 
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To clarify what I stated in my last post:

"The Holy Spirit bears witness to that which is already written. It is man that corrupted a great number of the Bibles available today. This however does in no way mean or even insinuate that God has not kept his word in preserving His Word perfectly."

Variant found for any given text does not mean the "original" writing has been lost; rather, it shows that somewhere in time, the text has been edited. Does this mean that all the variants are wrong? No, it means that all but one reading is wrong. Many believe that variants prove corruption of all texts; but this is simply not the case. It is not necessary for God to keep every single copy of his word pure. As long as He preserves the pure text where it is available to us (after all, it is us that need it), even if it is in only a handful of MSS, it is still preserved.

Who did God use to keep His Word pure? The simple answer is, God worked through those who have a deep reverence for His Word to keep it pure. A simple brief study of history of those who have given us the different Bibles we have today sheds an amazing light on the love, or distain for God's Word by the men studied; especially when the things stated come from their very own pen. The problem is, when we read that which we do dot want to believe, many, simply stop reading.

We must be willing to analyze all evidence objectively; for if we cannot, we become subjects of false evidence that cannot stand against the truth. Anyone who reads any thread that I become involved in knows that I present evidence for what I say I believe. Not everyone likes the evidence, but it is evidence that is usually quite easy to examine for ones self.

The truth is (as I have demonstrated in the past), that which I believe [inerrancy of the Scriptures] can be traced back hundreds of years earlier than the evidence sited by my opponents. Therefore, it is the 'errance' of Scripture that is the new teaching, not the 'inerrancy' of Scripture.

Jack
 
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"you must show me that NO English Bible, Hebrew text, Latin text, Greek text, or any other text is not the EXACT rendering of the “inspired original”.

O.K. - now show me the "Inspired original" and we'll compare 'em.

Simple as that.
 
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Jack Koons

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"If we say, “With the Holy Spirit, of course.”, how then has God held us accountable of the obeying of His Word, if we do not have access to it?"

What would make you believe that the Holy Spirit is NOT accessible to you???

And the KJV (and almost every other version) does a fine job in presenting the Historically preserved "Word of God" - but it's not "Perfect" as is easily demonstrable.

Simple as that.



Bob,

Allow me to remind you of what you said,

Post # 114

“And the KJV (and almost every other version) does a fine job in presenting the Historically preserved "Word of God" - but it's not "Perfect" as is easily demonstrable.

Simple as that.”


Please Bob, by all means, demonstrate.


Jack
 
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Jack Koons

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Let us move on to how God preserved His words perfectly. First, the words are the inspired words of God.

Now we must ask ourselves, why did God give us His words? Maybe I can ask it another way; Why would God send mankind a written message? Here's another question; Did God only intend for His written message to be given perfectly to the generation of the first century church, and all subsequent generations to be given His words in a less than perfect way; or did God not only give His word perfectly to the first century church, but also have a heavenly ordained plan of preservation to keep His words perfect for all generations?

Which of the above makes more sense?

That is what this thread is about. The modern scholars would have us believe that so-called 'original' words are lost with the parchments they were written upon. Yet, at the same time proclaim that they, within about a hundred words, have determined the original words of God!

I for one do not believe that it has been God's purpose to employ the so-called science of 'textual criticism' to 'almost perfectly' preserve His words; that in no way aligns with the tenure of scripture when observing the internal witness pertaining to the words of God. Take for example Psalm 138:2 I will worship toward thy holy temple, and praise thy name for thy lovingkindness and for thy truth: for thou hast magnified thy word above all thy name. Now the last time I checked God takes His name pretty seriously.
Phil. 2: 9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:
10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Yes sir, that's pretty serious.

So what do you think?

Jack
 
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