Is Hell Really Eternal?

[DrBubbaLove]

Was it not God who made the tea pot with the ability to rust, decay and dissolve? The same way, the rusted teapot gives water that isn't drinkable. It's not a 'good' teapot.

I see what you're saying, but I also see the other side of the coin.

You're saying that if there are no eternal consequences to what we do, then we can do whatever we like and not have to face eternal consequences. Yes, fair enough, I see your point, but I do not understand how you can say it as though it is an acceptable view for a christian to have. Why would doing whatever we please ever give true understanding?

Am not saying it would. Am saying it does not matter if one has true understanding or not if the end result is the same - eternal bliss.

Milk to the babies.

I've heard it said 'you are called to freedom. Yet, it is not beneficial to use this freedom to indulge, but rather to serve one another in love'.

The person who indulges, who 'parties hard', or 'does as they please', as you put it, lives on a knife edge, in comparison to the person who lives by the understanding that compassion and peace, tranquility and giving, love and understanding, surpass desire and give a person a life of TRUE living.

Again, am not arguing it is a better choice or better life. Am saying for any given man, it does not matter how they live, the end result is the same - eternal bliss.

If there are no eternal consequences, I'm asking you for a fourth or fifth time, why does that mean that it would be better to just do whatever we like - rape, murder, party hard, pillage, kill, maim, and hurt others?

Well for a person who would take some temporal pleasure in such things, am simply saying it does not matter if one's view of the afterlife is that such a person attains eternal bliss - even "eventually". In the grand scheme one is saying whatever one chooses to do here is fine. It may not be "fine" as far as others here see it, but eternally it is "fine" because not matter what one attains eternal bliss.
The counter argument that life here would be better if they did not choose wrongly is not denied - it just does not matter if they do or not eternally.

(if indeed, a person should so desire to do those things, which I do not)

And one would hope one would not so desire. The point is if one does - then one's view of the afterlife says it is of no eternal consequence that one does not only desire, but actually do those things.

Of course, as you say, some have no belief in hell, and some of those same people DO act as they please, but their consequence is that they are always walking around separated from what true living is. They are always in the dark, and they are always led by their impulses - which are fleeting and perishable. Thus, they walk on an unsteady foundation, and they 'find no rest day or night'.

IN THIS LIFE.
My point is the fact they MAY (not all seem to suffer justly for it in this life) they may not live this life "without rest" - one's view is saying they still attain eternal rest/bliss in the next.

The person who is a war monger, lives in war - an uneasy, fearful, unsafe, unsteady way of living. Their punishments are the consequences of living by the ways of war. They will incur death, see horror, be hard, hated, etc etc.

The person who lives by sexual promiscuity will become addicted, live unsteady with likely no real unison between themselves and <snip>

And some never live long enough to experience fully the repercussions of their actions. My point is not that actions do not have consequences. My point is one's view is saying none of our actions in this life have eternal consequences.

 

[he-man]

I most certainly did address the out-of-context scripture you you posted. For example Eccl 9:5, does not refer to man's eternal fate, as you imply, it is referring to what the writer can observe with his natural senses, "things under the sun." Some form of "things under the sun" occurs five times in Eccl 9, vss. 3, 6, 9, 11, 13. Thus 9:5 cannot be twisted to refer to man's eternal fate.

Scripture is strikingly solemn upon the state of the unregenerate when they die. They go to the dead, Solomon says [HAWKER]

Ecc 9:6 Their love and their hate and their envy have already perished, and forever they have no more share in all that is done under the sun.

Psa 146:4 When his breath departs, he returns to the earth; on that very day his plans perish.

Job 14:12 so a man lies down and rises not again; till the heavens are no more he will not awake or be roused out of his sleep.
Job 14:13 Oh that you would hide me in Sheol, that you would conceal me until your wrath be past, that you would appoint me a set time, and remember me!

Job 14:14 If a man dies, shall he live again? All the days of my service I would wait, till my renewal should come.

The same writer in Eccl 3:21 did not know what happens to a man's spirit at death.

Ecc 3:19 For what happens to the children of man and what happens to the beasts is the same; as one dies, so dies the other. They all have the same breath, and man has no advantage over the beasts, for all is vanity.
20 All go to one place. All are from the dust, and to dust all return.

21 The Hebrew expresses the difference strongly, “The spirit of man that ascends, it belongeth to on high; but the spirit of the beast that descends, it belongeth to below, even to the earth.” Their destinations and proper element differ utterly [Weiss].

The truth or falsity of a doctrine must stand or fall on its own merits, not on the basis of who holds it.
Let's see if you follow your own dictate, in this or any other post?

&#1493;&#1497;&#1490;&#1493;&#1506; (v. t.) To breathe out; to emit from the lungs; to throw out from the mouth or nostrils in the process of respiration. (derivation) exhalation, expiration, breathing out; v. expire, come to an end, finish, terminate; die
(v. i.) To come to an end; to cease; to terminate; to perish; to become extinct Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary
&#1493;&#1497;&#1490;&#1493;&#1506; to die, expire

But this scene occurs in Hades, during the disembodied state between death and resurrection. It is therefore difficult to see how a nonphysical being could have a literal tongue, much less be tormented by literal, physical fire. The same would apply to the other physical metaphors used to describe hell, such as the undying worm (Mark 9:48) Luk 16:26

And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, in order that those who would pass from here to you may not be able, and none may cross from there to us.' and Isa 66:24 "And they shall go out and look on the dead bodies of the men who have rebelled against me. For their worm shall not die, their fire shall not be quenched, and they shall be an abhorrence to all flesh."

and Isa 14:11 Your pomp is brought down to Sheol, the sound of your harps; maggots are laid as a bed beneath you, and worms are your covers.
And the chains of darkness (Jude 6) see Job 17:13 If I hope for Sheol as my house, if I make my bed in darkness,
14 if I say to the pit, 'You are my father,' and to the worm, 'My mother,' or 'My sister,'

The punishment of the wicked entails separation from God as a key component. Notice that Christ banishes them forever from His presence. As Guthrie observes, "When we penetrate below the language about hell, the major impression is a sense of separation .."
Donald Guthrie, New Testament Theology (Downers Grove: InterVarsity Press, 1981), 889-90.

If you cannot find in-context "anything scriptural to back up what you say, you are blowing in the wind." "The truth or falsity of a doctrine must stand or fall on its own merits, not on the basis of who holds it."

Jas 1:23 For if anyone is a hearer of the word and not a doer, he is like a man who looks intently at his natural face in a mirror.
2Th 1:9 They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might,

Mat 7:23 And then will I declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.'

Luk 13:25 When once the master of the house has risen and shut the door, and you begin to stand outside and to knock at the door, saying, 'Lord, open to us,' then he will answer you, 'I do not know where you come from.'

Mat 25:33 And he will place the sheep on his right, but the goats on the left.
Probably the most prominent evangelical to go over to the annihilationist position is Anglican John R. W. Stott, Rector of All Soul's church in London. Stott's shift came to light in a book published by InterVarsity Press entitled Evangelical Essentials: A Liberal-Evangelical Dialogue

The fact that no less of a person than J. R. W. Stott has endorsed it now will certainly encourage this trend to continue."
Stott's own meditations on the doctrine of hell have led him to say, "Well, emotionally, I find the concept intolerable and do not understand how people can live with it without either cauterizing their feelings or cracking under the strain." Stott is, after all, an evangelical. As such, he declares that the issue for him is "not what does my heart tell me, but what does God's word say?"

Though Stott is probably the most respected evangelical to espouse the annihilationists' cause, others have joined this growing movement as well. Clark Pinnock, John Wenham, Philip Hughes, and Stephen Travis have all positioned themselves as annihilationists within the evangelical camp.

Pinnock's complaint is even more emotionally charged: "Everlasting torment is intolerable from a moral point of view because it makes God into a bloodthirsty monster who maintains an everlasting Auschwitz for victims whom he does not even allow to die."Clark Pinnock, "The Destruction of the Finally Impenitent"; "Fire, Then Nothing," Christianity Today, 20 March 1987, 40-41;
John Wenham, The Goodness of God (London: Inter-Varsity, 1974), 27-41;
Philip Hughes, The True Image (Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1989), 398 ff.;
Stephen Travis, I Believe in the Second Coming of Jesus (Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1982), 196-99.
Edward W. Fudge, The Fire That Consumes (Fallbrook, CA: Verdict Publications, 1982); "The Final End of the Wicked," Journal of the Evangelical Theological Society 27 (September 1984):325-34;
"Putting Hell in Its Place," Christianity Today, August 1976, 14-17; "'The Plain Meaning': A Review Essay," (1985):18-31;
David A. Dean, "American Conditionalism in the Decade of the Eighties," (1989):3-10; Resurrection: His and Ours (Charlotte: Adventist Christian General Conference of America, 1977

How can Christians possibly project a deity of such cruelty and vindictiveness whose ways include inflicting everlasting torture upon his creatures, however sinful they may have been? Surely a God who would do such a thing is more nearly like Satan than like God, at least by any ordinary moral standards, and by the gospel itself. Clark Pinnock, "The Destruction of the Finally Impenitent," Criswell Theological Review 4 (Spring 1990):246-47., Professor and Noted Evangelical Author
Alan W. Gomes, "Evangelicals and the Annihilation of Hell, Part One," Christian Research Journal,
Spring 1991, pp. 14ff.

Where is all your scripture? If you cannot find in-context "anything scriptural to back up what you say, you are blowing in the wind." "The truth or falsity of a doctrine must stand or fall on its own merits, not on the basis of who holds it."

Proverbs 1:22 " How long, you simple ones, will you love simplicity?
For scorners delight in their scorning, And fools hate knowledge.

 

[Der Alte]

Scripture is strikingly solemn upon the state of the unregenerate when they die. They go to the dead, Solomon says [HAWKER]

Another irrelevant quote from a so-called scholar. The unsupported opinions of these so-called scholars is no more compelling than that of a homeless person on the street.

Ecc 9:6 Their love and their hate and their envy have already perished, and forever they have no more share in all that is done under the sun.

Psa 146:4 When his breath departs, he returns to the earth; on that very day his plans perish.

Job 14:12 so a man lies down and rises not again; till the heavens are no more he will not awake or be roused out of his sleep.
Job 14:13 Oh that you would hide me in Sheol, that you would conceal me until your wrath be past, that you would appoint me a set time, and remember me!

Job 14:14 If a man dies, shall he live again? All the days of my service I would wait, till my renewal should come.

Ecc 3:19 For what happens to the children of man and what happens to the beasts is the same; as one dies, so dies the other. They all have the same breath, and man has no advantage over the beasts, for all is vanity.
20 All go to one place. All are from the dust, and to dust all return.

Random scripture! Do you have any particular point you are trying to addess by quoting these scripture?

21 The Hebrew expresses the difference strongly, “The spirit of man that ascends, it belongeth to on high; but the spirit of the beast that descends, it belongeth to below, even to the earth.” Their destinations and proper element differ utterly [Weiss].

Copy/paste from so-called scholar, whose unsupported opinion is no more compelling than that of some homeless person on the street..

&#1493;&#1497;&#1490;&#1493;&#1506; (v. t.) To breathe out; to emit from the lungs; to throw out from the mouth or nostrils in the process of respiration. (derivation) exhalation, expiration, breathing out; v. expire, come to an end, finish, terminate; die
(v. i.) To come to an end; to cease; to terminate; to perish; to become extinct Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary
&#1493;&#1497;&#1490;&#1493;&#1506; to die, expire

Irrelevant copy/paste from a dictionary. Is this supposed to address any particular point? It certainly does not address anything I posted. Are you having a discussion with me or are you just throwing out random thoughts?

But this scene occurs in Hades, during the disembodied state between death and resurrection. It is therefore difficult to see how a nonphysical being could have a literal tongue, much less be tormented by literal, physical fire. The same would apply to the other physical metaphors used to describe hell, such as the undying worm (Mark 9:48) Luk 16:26

Irrelevant opinion. Mish-mash of unrelated scripture. Does not appear to address any particular point.

And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, in order that those who would pass from here to you may not be able, and none may cross from there to us.' and Isa 66:24 "And they shall go out and look on the dead bodies of the men who have rebelled against me. For their worm shall not die, their fire shall not be quenched, and they shall be an abhorrence to all flesh."

Another mish-mash of unrelated scripture. Does not appear to address any particular point.

and Isa 14:11 Your pomp is brought down to Sheol, the sound of your harps; maggots are laid as a bed beneath you, and worms are your covers.
And the chains of darkness (Jude 6) see Job 17:13 If I hope for Sheol as my house, if I make my bed in darkness,
14 if I say to the pit, 'You are my father,' and to the worm, 'My mother,' or 'My sister,'

Another mish-mash of unrelated scripture. Does not appear to address any particular point.

The punishment of the wicked entails separation from God as a key component. Notice that Christ banishes them forever from His presence. As Guthrie observes, "When we penetrate below the language about hell, the major impression is a sense of separation .."
Donald Guthrie, New Testament Theology (Downers Grove: InterVarsity Press, 1981), 889-90. Jas 1:23 For if anyone is a hearer of the word and not a doer, he is like a man who looks intently at his natural face in a mirror.
2Th 1:9 They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might,

Mat 7:23 And then will I declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.'

Luk 13:25 When once the master of the house has risen and shut the door, and you begin to stand outside and to knock at the door, saying, 'Lord, open to us,' then he will answer you, 'I do not know where you come from.'

Unsupported opinon of a so-called scholar. Mish-mash of unrelated scripture. Do you know how to participate in a discussion? Do you know how to respond to questions and address points that I make?

Anglican John R. W. Stott, ...Clark Pinnock, ... John Wenham, ... Philip Hughes, ... Stephen Travis, ... Edward W. Fudge, ... David A. Dean, ... Alan W. Gomes, etc., etc., etc.

All irrelevant. The hysterical, emotional, unsupported opinions of these and any other so-called scholars you want to quote are all irrelevant. Nothing you or they could say changes what the Jews believed at the time of Jesus. The Jews before and during the time of Jesus believed in a place of eternal, unending fiery punishment for the wicked and they called it both Sheol and Gehinnom. Jesus said and did nothing to contradict or correct the beliefs of the Jews.

Proverbs 1:22 " How long, you simple ones, will you love simplicity?
For scorners delight in their scorning, And fools hate knowledge.

Childish attempt to insult by quoting off-topic scripture.

 

[rstrats]

Der Alter,

re: " Jesus said and did nothing to contradict or correct the beliefs of the Jews."


How do you know that He didn't? John 21:25 says: "And there are also many other things that Jesus did, which if they were written one by one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that would be written. Amen."

 

[he-man]

Are you having a discussion with me or are you just throwing out random thoughts? Do you know how to participate in a discussion? Do you know how to respond to questions and address points that I make?
Originally Posted by Der Alter View Post
Where is all your scripture? If you cannot find in-context "anything scriptural to back up what you say, you are blowing in the wind

Deleted

 

[Der Alte]

Der Alter,

re: " Jesus said and did nothing to contradict or correct the beliefs of the Jews."

How do you know that He didn't? John 21:25 says: "And there are also many other things that Jesus did, which if they were written one by one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that would be written. Amen."

I see! Nitpicking. Let me rephrase that, nothing that is recorded in the NT indicates that Jesus said or did anything to correct or contradict the Jewish belief in hell, which is as follows. When Jesus spoke about "eternal punishment,""hell where the fire is not quenched, and the worm does not die," and "thrown into a furnace where there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth." that would have supported or reinforced the existing belief.

Jewish Encyclopedia, GEHENNA

The place where children were sacrificed to the god Moloch was originally in the "valley of the son of Hinnom," to the south of Jerusalem (Josh. xv. 8, passim; II Kings xxiii. 10; Jer. ii. 23; vii. 31-32; xix. 6, 13-14). For this reason the valley was deemed to be accursed, and "Gehenna" therefore soon became a figurative equivalent for "hell." Hell, like paradise, was created by God (Sotah 22a); [Note, this is according to the ancient Jews, long before the Christian era, NOT the bias of Christian translators.]

It is assumed in general that sinners go to hell immediately after their death. The famous teacher Johanan b. Zakkai wept before his death because he did not know whether he would go to paradise or to hell (Ber. 28b). The pious go to paradise, and sinners to hell (B.M. 83b).

But as regards the heretics, etc., and Jeroboam, Nebat's son, hell shall pass away, but they shall not pass away" (R. H. 17a; comp. Shab. 33b). All that descend into Gehenna shall come up again, with the exception of three classes of men: those who have committed adultery, or shamed their neighbors, or vilified them (B. M. 58b).[/i]

As mentioned above, heretics and the Roman oppressors go to Gehenna, and the same fate awaits the Persians, the oppressors of the Babylonian Jews (Ber. 8b). When Nebuchadnezzar descended into hell, [Sheol] all its inhabitants were afraid that he was coming to rule over them (Shab. 149a; comp. Isa. xiv. 9-10). The Book of Enoch also says that it is chiefly the heathen who are to be cast into the fiery pool on the Day of Judgment (x. 6, xci. 9, et al.). " The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity" (Judith xvi. 17). The sinners in Gehenna will be filled with pain when God puts back the souls into the dead bodies on the Day of Judgment, according to Isa. xxxiii. 11 (Sanh. 108b).

Jewish Encyclopedia Online

Talmud -Tractate Rosh Hashanah Chapter 1.

The school of Hillel says: . . . but as for Minim, [follower of Jesus] informers and disbelievers, who deny the Torah, or Resurrection, or separate themselves from the congregation, or who inspire their fellowmen with dread of them, or who sin and cause others to sin, as did Jeroboam the son of Nebat and his followers, they all descend to Gehenna, and are judged there from generation to generation, as it is said [Isa. lxvi. 24]: "And they shall go forth and look upon the carcases of the men who have transgressed against Me; for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched." Even when Gehenna will be destroyed, they will not be consumed, as it is written [Psalms, xlix. 15]: "And their forms wasteth away in the nether world,"which the sages comment upon to mean that their forms shall endure even when the grave is no more. Concerning them Hannah says [I Sam. ii. 10]: "The adversaries of the Lord shall be broken to pieces."

Tract Rosh Hashana: Chapter I.​

 

[Mediate]

Am not saying it would. Am saying it does not matter if one has true understanding or not if the end result is the same - eternal bliss.

Again, am not arguing it is a better choice or better life. Am saying for any given man, it does not matter how they live, the end result is the same - eternal bliss.
Well for a person who would take some temporal pleasure in such things, am simply saying it does not matter if one's view of the afterlife is that such a person attains eternal bliss - even "eventually". In the grand scheme one is saying whatever one chooses to do here is fine. It may not be "fine" as far as others here see it, but eternally it is "fine" because not matter what one attains eternal bliss.
The counter argument that life here would be better if they did not choose wrongly is not denied - it just does not matter if they do or not eternally.
And one would hope one would not so desire. The point is if one does - then one's view of the afterlife says it is of no eternal consequence that one does not only desire, but actually do those things.
IN THIS LIFE.
My point is the fact they MAY (not all seem to suffer justly for it in this life) they may not live this life "without rest" - one's view is saying they still attain eternal rest/bliss in the next.

Basically, you're saying;

'If there's no hell, then it doesn't matter what we do'.

I disagree with your outlook.

 

[timbo3]

How can "hell" be a place of fiery torment that supposedly Satan and his demons preside over, since Jesus said that they are among the ones "cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the Devil and his angels" ?(Matt 25:41) This is a paradox.

Who do people usually say is “in charge” of hellfire ? Who supposedly punishes the people that are in hell ? Most will say the Devil. Yet, the Devil is God's worst enemy. So, if God sends people to a fiery hell to be tormented by the Devil, wouldn’t that imply a level of cooperation between God and the Devil ? That surely cannot be. So is "hell" as a place of fiery torment real ? No. But both death and everlasting destruction are.

At 2 Thessalonians 1, the apostle Paul wrote: "Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you......In a flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction (Greek aionion olethron, meaning "to destroy everlastingly") from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power."(2 Thess 1:6, 8, 9, KJV)

That is why Jesus said that Satan, his angels and all those who fails to assist Jesus "brothers" are destined for "the everlasting fire" (Matt 25:45), or as Revelation 20:14 says, the "lake of fire", the "second death". Jude wrote that the angels that "forsook their own proper dwelling place" by materializing as men before the global flood and having sex with women as well as those in Sodom and Gomorrah "are placed before us as a warning example by undergoing the judicial punishment of everlasting fire."(Jude 6, 7)

Hence, the immoral residents of Sodom and Gomorrah and the rebel angels have been judged as worthy of the "everlasting fire", of being totally destroyed, not tormented. But why is the "lake of fire" called "the second death" ?

Because the death we receive as a result of our sinful nature we inherited from our forefather Adam could be called the 1st death or Adamic death.(Rom 5:12) From this Adamic death, we can obtain a resurrection. But not so from the "second death", for once a person is judged as "wicked" by Jesus (John 5:22, 29b), then they are counted worthy of the "second death", with these ones being dead (not tormented) permanently. These are called "goats" at Matthew 25:33.

And it is also of interest that those who are privileged for "the heavenly calling"(Heb 3:1), are granted "immortality".(1 Cor 15:53) How can these ones be granted "immortality" if, as the churches teach, that the soul is already immortal ? Something is amiss here. Where in the Bible is anyone who is condemned as wicked given immortality ?

Rather the Bible clearly shows that soul is not immortal, but can die.(Eze 18:4, 20) Genesis 2:7 shows that Adam "became a living soul", not possessing one, in which the apostle Paul concurs.(1 Cor 15:45) Abraham (Abram at the time) requested that Sarah (Sarai at the time) tell Pharaoh that she was his sister, so that "my soul shall live because of thee."(Gen 12:13, KJV)

Abraham recognized that he, as a living soul or person, could die if Pharaoh decided to kill him, in order to take Sarah for his wife. He was aware that the soul is us as a person, with all our desires and feelings, with life, in which blood travels through our "soul"(Jer 2:34) and thus can die.

Lot pleaded with the angel to be able to flee to a nearby city away from Sodom just before its destruction, saying: "Oh, let me escape thither, [is it not a little one ?] and my soul shall live."(Gen 19:20, KJV) Lot recognized that he is a soul, a breathing person, who wished to flee to a place closer than the mountains, so that "my soul shall live" (Gen 19:17) and not be destroyed with those in Sodom. He did not want his soul to die, just as Abraham his uncle.

 

[DrBubbaLove]

Basically, you're saying;

'If there's no hell, then it doesn't matter what we do'.

I disagree with your outlook.

I understand your position to be that it matters because what we do can have consequences in this life. I am not denying that at all. I am saying your position means what we do in this life has ABSOLUTELY NO eternal consequences. Even though true there are better ways to live and even if there are temporal consequences equal to or expediting the offense there is still no eternal consequences. And that is what I disagree with.

 

[Mediate]

I understand your position to be that it matters because what we do can have consequences in this life. I am not denying that at all. I am saying your position means what we do in this life has ABSOLUTELY NO eternal consequences. Even though true there are better ways to live and even if there are temporal consequences equal to or expediting the offense there is still no eternal consequences. And that is what I disagree with.

And I'm trying to get you to ask why? Why must there be fiery torment? You clearly have read enough of this thread to see the word 'hell' doesn't even exist in the original words of jesus. You understand that it's totally plausible to read the bible and see parables rather than literal facts. That's how I read 'gehenna'.

So I'm asking you to ask yourself, what's different between you and I that I think God will call all and unite all to him in the end, and you don't? It's more than a case of whether we disagree or agree with one another, there's a why beneath the surface. Like, why do you hold to the specific conceptualization within King James' bible 1600 years after Jesus? Or why must something have eternal, irrefutable and extremely polar consequences (depending on what I imagine you see as polar opposites - belief and nonbelief) for it to have any real meaning that you'll consider 'enough' to be meritable to warrant faith in it?

Its absolutely plausible that Gehenna is something Jesus used as an example of the earthly consequences of sin, since Gehenna was a place renowned for there dwelling within its land people who had no moral compass, who slaughtered children and committed horrors, and no less people who would consider themselves of jewish and hebrew descent.

So why do you take it literally and hold to your idea that for all eternity the majority of mankind will burn in neverending flames when it can be taken the other way? What is it inside you that says 'no, there has to be a hell because that's justice'?

It's not fact. It simply isn't. And i don't profess that what I believe is fact either. But two different perspectives are being seen here.

You don't have to answer me. And in fact, I don't require, want or need an answer. But it's something to think about.

I never said that what we do in life doesn't have consequences on a level further than this life. I said the consequences in this life befit the action in one way or another. God made the world, so it's rules and ways are instated by that same God. The mind is a tool fashioned by him, as is the conscience an the ability to lack one.

I never said actions have no effect beyond mortal life, nor that they can't. I did however say, that the consequences that you think actions have eternally is not fact, and that the afterlife you consider befitting of all those missing the mark does not, by any stretch, have to be that of neverending agony by the command of the bible.

It's only so because that's what you choose to see. The same way I choose to see what I do. Why do you choose to see what you do?

And how does it stack against 'forgive them father?'


.....

I cam to see that lawful sight is not equal to peace of mind, and mankind's judicial ideals are not equal to an abundance of compassion.

'For to the measure that you give, so you will also be given'. It's prophetic.

It's as much about YOUR heart, if not more so, than 'what you think' or 'what you believe'.

For to the measure that you give, so you will also be given'.

We make our own judgement like a DNA strand, unique to every person, written on our hearts by our very own standards of judgement.

Thus 'WHen you see, you shall be known'. When the mirror is no longer faded.

'When you know yourselves'.

'For the kingdom is neither here nor there, for it is within you, then it is outside you'

It is not retribution as we see retribution. More like, how an earhtly father succumbs to spanking the child because he can think of no other way to get through to him. The father really wants the power to be able tosay to the child 'understand', and thus, in understanding, the child no longer wishes to do the thing which is not beneficial. God has that power, to make us see and understand.


IN essence, come 'the day', there will be a revealing of men's hearts. We shall know ourselves. Thus, in knowing, we undergo a 'becoming whole'. We are judged to the measure we judge, given to the measure we gave, and all things fold back and become evident to exactly the measure that each individually needs to know.

And these three endure; faith, hope and love.

All men who do wrongs, somehow and in some way, though even a small way, think they are right in doing them. That is important to remember. We firstly gained knowledge of the idea of good and evil, but even now, we do not fully understand the depths of their difference.

That is no more than ignorance.

To be maliceful, or hateful, in itself is ignorance of what is beneficial and what is not. And ignorance, like the dark, can be lit up and shown out. The process, however, I don't know to be pleasant.

'For when I have WROUGHT with you for my very name's sake, then you shall understand that I am the God'

 

[he-man]

Are you having a discussion with me or are you just throwing out random thoughts? Do you know how to participate in a discussion? Do you know how to respond to questions and address points that I make?
Originally Posted by Der Alter View Post
Where is all your scripture? If you cannot find in-context "anything scriptural to back up what you say, you are blowing in the wind." "The truth or falsity of a doctrine must stand or fall on its own merits, not on the basis of who holds it."

deleted

 

[Der Alte]

How can "hell" be a place of fiery torment that supposedly Satan and his demons preside over, since Jesus said that they are among the ones "cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the Devil and his angels" ?(Matt 25:41) This is a paradox.

What happens to the devil in Revelation?

Rev 20:10 And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.​

Who do people usually say is “in charge” of hellfire ? Who supposedly punishes the people that are in hell ? Most will say the Devil. Yet, the Devil is God's worst enemy. So, if God sends people to a fiery hell to be tormented by the Devil, wouldn’t that imply a level of cooperation between God and the Devil ? That surely cannot be. So is "hell" as a place of fiery torment real ? No. But both death and everlasting destruction are.

What some people might say, is irrelevant! What does the Bible say? There is no implied level of cooperation between God and the devil, any more than there is between people who sin and God.

At 2 Thessalonians 1, the apostle Paul wrote: "Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you......In a flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction (Greek aionion olethron, meaning "to destroy everlastingly") from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power."(2 Thess 1:6, 8, 9, KJV)

A person who is "destroyed," i.e. no longer exists, is not away from anything.

That is why Jesus said that Satan, his angels and all those who fails to assist Jesus "brothers" are destined for "the everlasting fire" (Matt 25:45), or as Revelation 20:14 says, the "lake of fire", the "second death". Jude wrote that the angels that "forsook their own proper dwelling place" by materializing as men before the global flood and having sex with women as well as those in Sodom and Gomorrah "are placed before us as a warning example by undergoing the judicial punishment of everlasting fire."(Jude 6, 7)

The lake of fire [LOF], which is called "the second death" is not synonymous with death or destruction. In Rev 20:10 three beings the beast, the false prophet, and the devil are cast into the LOF but they do not die, they are tormented day and night, for ever and ever. The false prophet is a person. 1,000,000[sup]1,000,000[/sup] years from now God's unchanging word will still say "shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever."

Rev 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.​

There is also a multitude of people who are tormented in fire for ever and ever and have no rest day or night, Rev 14:11. Some people want to argue that only the smoke ascends up for ever and ever, but if the people are instantly annihilated, the smoke and torment is no longer theirs. The unending nature of this torment is emphasized by the phrase "they have no rest day or night." 1,000,000[sup]1,000,000[/sup] eons from now God's unchanging word will still say "they have no rest day nor night.'

Rev 14:11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.​

Hence, the immoral residents of Sodom and Gomorrah and the rebel angels have been judged as worthy of the "everlasting fire", of being totally destroyed, not tormented. But why is the "lake of fire" called "the second death" ?

The LOF is not synonymous with death or annihilation. See Rev 20;10.

Because the death we receive as a result of our sinful nature we inherited from our forefather Adam could be called the 1st death or Adamic death.(Rom 5:12) From this Adamic death, we can obtain a resurrection. But not so from the "second death", for once a person is judged as "wicked" by Jesus (John 5:22, 29b), then they are counted worthy of the "second death", with these ones being dead (not tormented) permanently. These are called "goats" at Matthew 25:33.

Many Jews at the time of jesus believed in a place of unending fiery torment for the wicked, they called it both Sheol and Gehinnom/Gehenna. When Jesus taught about "eternal punishment,""thrown into a furnace where there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth," and "cast into hell, where the fire is not quenched and the worm does not die." That supported the existing view. Nothing recorded in the NT shows that Jesus ever "corrected" the Jews. For documentation from the Jewish Encyclopedia and the Talmud click here for [post=64931015]post #486[/post] in this thread.

And it is also of interest that those who are privileged for "the heavenly calling"(Heb 3:1), are granted "immortality".(1 Cor 15:53) How can these ones be granted "immortality" if, as the churches teach, that the soul is already immortal ? Something is amiss here. Where in the Bible is anyone who is condemned as wicked given immortality ?

The rich man in Luke 16, and in Isaiah 14 there is a long passage about the king of Babylon dying, and according to many the dead know nothing. They are supposedly annihilated, destroyed, gone! God, Himself, speaking, these dead people in [size=+1]&#1513;&#1488;&#1493;&#1500;[/size]/sheol, know something, they move, meet the dead coming to sheol, stir up, raise up, speak and say, etc.

Isa 14:9-11 (KJV)
9) Hell [[size=+1]&#1513;&#1488;&#1493;&#1500;][/size] from beneath is moved for thee to meet thee at thy coming: it stirreth up the dead for thee, even all the chief ones of the earth; it hath raised up from their thrones all the kings of the nations.
10) All they shall speak and say unto thee, Art thou also become weak as we? art thou become like unto us?
11) Thy pomp is brought down to the grave, [[size=+1]&#1513;&#1488;&#1493;&#1500;][/size] and the noise of thy viols: the worm is spread under thee, and the worms cover thee.
[ . . . ]
22) For I will rise up against them, saith the LORD of hosts, and cut off from Babylon the name, and remnant, and son, and nephew, saith the LORD.​

In this passage God, himself is speaking, and I see a whole lot of shaking going on, moving, rising up, and speaking in . These dead people seem to know something, about something. We know that verses 11 through 14 describe actual historical events, the death of Nebuchadnezzar, king of Babble-on.

Here is another passage where God himself is speaking and people who are dead in sheol, speaking, being ashamed, comforted, etc.

Ezek 32:18-22, 30-31 (KJV)
18) Son of man, [Ezekiel] wail for the multitude of Egypt, and cast them down, even her, and the daughters of the famous nations, unto the nether parts of the earth, with them that go down into the pit.
19) Whom dost thou pass in beauty? go down, and be thou laid with the uncircumcised.
20) They shall fall in the midst of them that are slain by the sword: she is delivered to the sword: draw her and all her multitudes.
21) The strong among the mighty shall speak to him out of the midst of hell [[size=+1]&#1513;&#1488;&#1493;&#1500;][/size] with them that help him: they are gone down, they lie uncircumcised, slain by the sword.
22) Asshur is there and all her company: his graves are about him: all of them slain, fallen by the sword::[ . . . ]
Eze 32:30-31
(30) There be the princes of the north, all of them, and all the Zidonians, which are gone down with the slain; with their terror they are ashamed of their might; and they lie uncircumcised with them that be slain by the sword, and bear their shame with them that go down to the pit.
(31) Pharaoh shall see them, and shall be comforted over all his multitude, even Pharaoh and all his army slain by the sword, saith the Lord GOD.​

Rather the Bible clearly shows that soul is not immortal, but can die.(Eze 18:4, 20) Genesis 2:7 shows that Adam "became a living soul", not possessing one, in which the apostle Paul concurs.(1 Cor 15:45) Abraham (Abram at the time) requested that Sarah (Sarai at the time) tell Pharaoh that she was his sister, so that "my soul shall live because of thee."(Gen 12:13, KJV)

"Soul" in Ezekiel 18:4, 20 refers to the person not specifically the soul.

Eze 18:5 But if a man be just, and do that which is lawful and right,
. . .
Eze 18:9 Hath walked in my statutes, and hath kept my judgments, to deal truly; he is just, he shall surely live, saith the Lord GOD.​

Abraham recognized that he, as a living soul or person, could die if Pharaoh decided to kill him, in order to take Sarah for his wife. He was aware that the soul is us as a person, with all our desires and feelings, with life, in which blood travels through our "soul"(Jer 2:34) and thus can die.

Another out-of-context proof text. "Soul" in Jer 2:34 refers to persons. The immaterial soul does not have blood. And Israel can't do anything to "souls."

Jer 2:34 Also in thy skirts [Israel, vs. 31] is found the blood of the souls of the poor innocents: I have not found it by secret search, but upon all these.​

Lot pleaded with the angel to be able to flee to a nearby city away from Sodom just before its destruction, saying: "Oh, let me escape thither, [is it not a little one ?] and my soul shall live."(Gen 19:20, KJV) Lot recognized that he is a soul, a breathing person, who wished to flee to a place closer than the mountains, so that "my soul shall live" (Gen 19:17) and not be destroyed with those in Sodom. He did not want his soul to die, just as Abraham his uncle.

Another out-of-context proof text. "Soul" in Gen 19:17, 20 refers to persons not the immaterial soul. The souls of the Sodomites were not destroyed, they will stand judgment just as anyone else who ever lived.

Note this OT verse.

Dan 12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.​

Some will awaken to everlasting shame and contempt. It does not say they "will awaken to everlasting shame and contempt" then they will be destroyed.

 

[he-man]

Are you having a discussion with me or are you just throwing out random thoughts? Do you know how to participate in a discussion? Do you know how to respond to questions and address points that I make?
Originally Posted by Der Alter View Post
Where is all your scripture? If you cannot find in-context "anything scriptural to back up what you say, you are blowing in the wind." "The truth or falsity of a doctrine must stand or fall on its own merits, not on the basis of who holds it."

I would hardly call what you posted a discussion. I would call it an extorted attempt to sidestep the using of scriptures to answer what I posted. I thought you said in your last post, "If you cannot find in-context "anything scriptural to back up what you say, you are blowing in the wind." "The truth or falsity of a doctrine must stand or fall on its own merits, not on the basis of who holds it." P.S. The Hebrew language is not a dictionary &#1493;&#1497;&#1490;&#1493;&#1506; to die, expire

Another irrelevant quote from a so-called scholar. Random scripture! Do you have any particular point you are trying to addess by quoting these scripture?Copy/paste from so-called scholar, whose unsupported opinion is no more compelling than that of some homeless person on the street.. Irrelevant copy/paste from a dictionary. Irrelevant opinion. Mish-mash of unrelated scripture..Another mish-mash of unrelated scripture.Another mish-mash of unrelated scripture. Unsupported opinon of a so-called scholar. Mish-mash of unrelated scripture. All irrelevant. The hysterical, emotional, unsupported opinions of these and any other so-called scholars you want to quote are all irrelevant. Nothing you or they could say changes .

Proverbs 1:22 " How long, you simple ones, will you love simplicity?
For scorners delight in their scorning, And fools hate knowledge.

Theology books by Francis Nigel Lee, FN Lee, John Gill, John Kershaw, Robert Hawker
Johannes Weiss, (born Dec. 13, 1863, Kiel, Schleswig-Holstein [now in Germany]—died Aug. 24, 1914, Heidelberg, Ger.), German theologian known for his work in New Testament criticism. He wrote the first eschatological interpretations of the Gospel (1892) and also set forth the principles of “form-criticism” (1912)—the analysis of biblical passages through the examination of their structural form. The Encyclopædia Britannica

Ecc 9:6 Their love and their hate and their envy have already perished, and forever they have no more share in all that is done under the sun.

Psa 146:4 When his breath departs, he returns to the earth; on that very day his plans perish.

Job 14:12 so a man lies down and rises not again; till the heavens are no more he will not awake or be roused out of his sleep.
Job 14:13 Oh that you would hide me in Sheol, that you would conceal me until your wrath be past, that you would appoint me a set time, and remember me!

Job 14:14 If a man dies, shall he live again? All the days of my service I would wait, till my renewal should come.

Ecc 3:19 For what happens to the children of man and what happens to the beasts is the same; as one dies, so dies the other. They all have the same breath, and man has no advantage over the beasts, for all is vanity.
20 All go to one place. All are from the dust, and to dust all return.

Jas 1:23 For if anyone is a hearer of the word and not a doer, he is like a man who looks intently at his natural face in a mirror.
2Th 1:9 They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might,

Mat 7:23 And then will I declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.'

Luk 13:25 When once the master of the house has risen and shut the door, and you begin to stand outside and to knock at the door, saying, 'Lord, open to us,' then he will answer you, 'I do not know where you come from.'

Mat 25:33 And he will place the sheep on his right, but the goats on the left.

 

[he-man]

What happens to the devil in Revelation?

Christ destroyed death and that which is evil is represented by a satan and you can put that in your pipe and smoke it!

Psa 37:20 But the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the LORD shall be as the fat of lambs: they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away. . Psa 18:8 There went up a smoke out of his nostrils, and fire out of his mouth devoured: coals were kindled by it.

Psa 68:2 As smoke is driven away, so drive them away: as wax melteth before the fire, so let the wicked perish at the presence of God.

Isa 9:18 For wickedness burneth as the fire: it shall devour the briers and thorns, and shall kindle in the thickets of the forest, and they shall mount up like the lifting up of smoke.

Hos 13:3 Therefore they shall be as the morning cloud, and as the early dew that passeth away, as the chaff that is driven with the whirlwind out of the floor, and as the smoke out of the chimney.

Proverbs 1:22 " How long, you simple ones, will you love simplicity?
For scorners delight in their scorning, And fools hate knowledge.

Ecc 9:6 Their love and their hate and their envy have already perished, and forever they have no more share in all that is done under the sun.

Psa 146:4 When his breath departs, he returns to the earth; on that very day his plans perish.

Job 14:12 so a man lies down and rises not again; till the heavens are no more he will not awake or be roused out of his sleep.
Job 14:13 Oh that you would hide me in Sheol, that you would conceal me until your wrath be past, that you would appoint me a set time, and remember me!

Job 14:14 If a man dies, shall he live again? All the days of my service I would wait, till my renewal should come.

Ecc 3:19 For what happens to the children of man and what happens to the beasts is the same; as one dies, so dies the other. They all have the same breath, and man has no advantage over the beasts, for all is vanity.
20 All go to one place. All are from the dust, and to dust all return.

Jas 1:23 For if anyone is a hearer of the word and not a doer, he is like a man who looks intently at his natural face in a mirror.
2Th 1:9 They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might,

Mat 7:23 And then will I declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.'

Luk 13:25 When once the master of the house has risen and shut the door, and you begin to stand outside and to knock at the door, saying, 'Lord, open to us,' then he will answer you, 'I do not know where you come from.'

Mat 25:33 And he will place the sheep on his right, but the goats on the left.

What some people might say, is irrelevant! What does the Bible say? There is no implied level of cooperation between God and the devil..

Funny, then why does it say he had to ask God for permission to test Job but could not destroy Job? And not only that, but Job says, "the hand of God has touched me..." Job 19:21 Have pity upon me, have pity upon me, O ye my friends; for the hand of God hath touched me.

 

[Der Alte]

. . . Psa 37:20 But the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the LORD shall be as the fat of lambs: they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away . . .

The usual list of out-of-context proof texts. For example, this verse does not refer to the eternal fate of mankind, it refers to what happens to Israel's enemies on the field of battle. See the following vss. from Psalm 37

Psa 37:1 <A Psalm of David.> Fret not thyself because of evildoers, neither be thou envious against the workers of iniquity.
Psa 37:2 For they shall soon be cut down like the grass, and wither as the green herb.​

Cut down like the grass and withering like the herb is not annihilation!

Psa 37:9 For evildoers shall be cut off: but those that wait upon the LORD, they shall inherit the earth.
Psa 37:10 For yet a little while, and the wicked shall not be: yea, thou shalt diligently consider his place, and it shall not be.​

Evildoers are cut off like grass that is why Israel cannot see them

Psa 37:14 The wicked have drawn out the sword, and have bent their bow, to cast down the poor and needy, and to slay such as be of upright conversation.
Psa 37:15 Their sword shall enter into their own heart, and their bows shall be broken.​

The wicked have drawn their swords to attack Israel but they shall be pierced by their own sword and their bows are broken. That is not annihilation!

Psa 37:17 For the arms of the wicked shall be broken: but the LORD upholdeth the righteous.​

The arms of the wicked are broken, that is not annihilation.

Psa 37:22 For such as be blessed of him shall inherit the earth; and they that be cursed of him shall be cut off.​

The wicked are cut off like the grass, vs. 2. That is not annihilation.

Psa 37:28 For the LORD loveth judgment, and forsaketh not his saints; they are preserved for ever: but the seed of the wicked shall be cut off.​

The wicked and their seed [descendants] are cut off like the grass, vs. 2. That is not annihilation.

Psa 37:32 The wicked watcheth the righteous, and seeketh to slay him.​

The wicked try to kill the Israelites, but God cuts them down like the grass, vs. 2. 9, 22, 28.

Psa 37:36 Yet he passed away, and, lo, he was not: yea, I sought him, but he could not be found.​

Israel's enemies are killed in battle, cut down like the grass, vs. 2, 9, 22, 28, that is why Israel cannot find them.

 

[he-man]

The usual list of out-of-context proof texts. For example, this verse does not refer to the eternal fate of mankindThe wicked and their seed [descendants] are cut off like the grass, vs. 2. That is not annihilation.

Do you smoke a pipe? Seems liked you skipped over the verses when you smelled the smoke of God's anger.

Psa 37:20 But the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the LORD shall be as the fat of lambs: they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away. . Psa 18:8 There went up a smoke out of his nostrils, and fire out of his mouth devoured: coals were kindled by it.

Psa 68:2 As smoke is driven away, so drive them away: as wax melteth before the fire, so let the wicked perish at the presence of God.

Isa 9:18 For wickedness burneth as the fire: it shall devour the briers and thorns, and shall kindle in the thickets of the forest, and they shall mount up like the lifting up of smoke.

Hos 13:3 Therefore they shall be as the morning cloud, and as the early dew that passeth away, as the chaff that is driven with the whirlwind out of the floor, and as the smoke out of the chimney.

Proverbs 1:22 " How long, you simple ones, will you love simplicity?
For scorners delight in their scorning, And fools hate knowledge.

Ecc 9:6 Their love and their hate and their envy have already perished, and forever they have no more share in all that is done under the sun.

Psa 146:4 When his breath departs, he returns to the earth; on that very day his plans perish.

Job 14:12 so a man lies down and rises not again; till the heavens are no more he will not awake or be roused out of his sleep.
Job 14:13 Oh that you would hide me in Sheol, that you would conceal me until your wrath be past, that you would appoint me a set time, and remember me!

Job 14:14 If a man dies, shall he live again? All the days of my service I would wait, till my renewal should come.

Ecc 3:19 For what happens to the children of man and what happens to the beasts is the same; as one dies, so dies the other. They all have the same breath, and man has no advantage over the beasts, for all is vanity.
20 All go to one place. All are from the dust, and to dust all return.

Jas 1:23 For if anyone is a hearer of the word and not a doer, he is like a man who looks intently at his natural face in a mirror.
2Th 1:9 They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might,

Mat 7:23 And then will I declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.'

Luk 13:25 When once the master of the house has risen and shut the door, and you begin to stand outside and to knock at the door, saying, 'Lord, open to us,' then he will answer you, 'I do not know where you come from.'

Mat 25:33 And he will place the sheep on his right, but the goats on the left.

What some people might say, is irrelevant! What does the Bible say? There is no implied level of cooperation between God and the devil..

Funny, then why does it say he had to ask God for permission to test Job but could not destroy Job? And not only that, but Job says, "the hand of God has touched me..." Job 19:21 Have pity upon me, have pity upon me, O ye my friends; for the hand of God hath touched me.

 

[Der Alte]

. . . Funny, then why does it say he had to ask God for permission to test Job but could not destroy Job? And not only that, but Job says, "the hand of God has touched me..." Job 19:21 Have pity upon me, have pity upon me, O ye my friends; for the hand of God hath touched me.

Yes, funny. Despite all the snide little smiley faces. I don't recall Satan asking permission from God. If I recall correctly Satan dared/challenged God to take His protection away from Job, claiming that Job would curse God if He did. Was Job a prophet called and ordained by God? Where is it written that Job was speaking, "Thus saith the Lord?" Or was Job just an ordinary human being who, after all the calamities which had happened to him, was crying out of his pain, frustration and distress? There is a difference between someone under the inspiration of the Spirit of the Lord, speaking "Thus saith the Lord" and an ordinary person speaking about what they can perceive with their senses.

The rest is just a long list of out-of-context proof texts the purpose of which I do not know. If you have any particular point you wish to support with scripture, perhaps you should consider stating what that point is and explain how the scripture supports it. For example, see my discussions in the post you copied but did not address.

 

[he-man]

Yes, funny. Despite all the snide little smiley faces. I don't recall Satan asking permission from God.

It was the Angel of God who was testing Job and was vexing him but the whole story is a "PARABLE' for you instruction.

Job 27:1 Moreover Job continued his parable, and said,
2 As God liveth, who hath taken away my judgment; and the Almighty, who hath vexed my soul;
Job 19:21 Have pity upon me, have pity upon me, O ye my friends; for the hand of God hath touched me.
&#1488;&#1457;&#1500;&#1465;&#1492;&#1460;&#1497;&#1501; again responded in the affirmative and gave the adversary[one of the sons of God] permission to put Job to the test to see whether anyone in a situation such as his would curse &#1488;&#1457;&#1500;&#1465;&#1492;&#1460;&#1497;&#1501; and accuse Him of being unjust.

&#1488;&#1457;&#1500;&#1465;&#1492;&#1460;&#1497;&#1501; was careful, however, to again set limits on what the adversary could do to Job and said, &#8220;Behold, he is in your hand, but spare his life&#8221;.

The name/title Satan is self explanatory of the holder&#8217;s fault because it literally means adversary in the ancient semitic language that it was originally recorded.

Then the LORD said to Satan, &#8220;Have you considered My servant Job, that there is none like him on the earth, a blameless and upright man, one who fears God and shuns evil? And still he holds fast to his integrity, although you incited Me against him, to destroy him without cause.&#8221; (Job 2:3 NKJV)

Then all his brothers, all his sisters, and all those who had been his acquaintances before, came to him and ate food with him in his house; and they consoled him and comforted him for all the adversity that the LORD had brought upon him.

&#8230; let the wickedness of the wicked come to an end, But establish the just; for the righteous God tests the hearts and minds. (Psalms 7:9 NKJV)

The belief of the Hebrews down to the Babylonian exile seems but dimly to have recognized either Satan or demons, at least as a dogmatic tenet, nor had it many occasions for them, since it treated moral evils as a properly humans act (comp. Gen. 3), and always as subjective and concrete, but regarded misfortunes according to teleological axioms, as a punishment deserved on account of sin at the hand of a righteous God, who inflicted it especially by the agency of one of his angels (2 Sam. 24,16; comp. 2 kings xix, 35), and was according looked upon as the proper author of every afflictive dis&#961;ensation (Amos 3, 64, Apparitions were part of the popular creed : there were beings inimical to mankind inhabiting solitude, but not yet adopted in the association of religious ideas.

Earlier, indeed, a Satan, so called by way of eminence, occasionally appears as the malicious author of human misfortune, but only under the divine superintendence: e. g. incites David to a sinful act, (1 Chron. 21, 1); casts suspicions upon Job's piety (Job 1, 6' sq.), and, with Jehovah's permission, inflicts upon him a lot gradually more severe to the utmost point of endurance; appears as the mendacious impeacher (&#945; &#954;&#945;&#964;&#951;&#965;&#969;&#961;, Rev. 12, 10) &#959;f the high-priest Joshua before the angel of God, but draws upon himself the divine malediction (Zech. 3, 1 sq.).

Yet in all this he is as little like the Ahriman of the Zend A&#957;esta (Rhode, Heil. Sage, p. 182 sq.; Matthai, Religionsgloube d. Apostel, II, i, 171 sq.; Creuzer, Symbol. i. 705) as an indifferent prosecuting attorney general or judicial su&#961;erintendent commissioned by Jehovah.

In the Apocrypha, the old Hebrew notion of Jehovah's angels who allot disaster occurs not partially, and in the case mishap over takes the enemies of the pious, the angels are alluded to as Auxiliaries and friends of the latter [Jehovah] (2 &#924;acc. 15, 23 sq.), although we may search in vain such passages for a single mention of daemons. On the other hand, the books of Tobias and Baruch are full of representations concerning them.. (&#948;&#945;&#953;&#956;&#972;&#957;&#953;a), while they never refer to &#931;&#945;&#964;&#945;&#957;.

Babylonian Talmud, Baba Bathra Job 9:2 I know it is so of a truth: but how should man be just with God? 24 The earth is given into the hand of the wicked: he covereth the faces of the judges thereof; if not, where, and who is he? 33 Neither is there any daysman betwixt us, that might lay his hand upon us both.

 

[Der Alte]

It was the Angel of God who was testing Job and was vexing him but the whole story is a "PARABLE' for you instruction.

Job 27:1 Moreover Job continued his parable, and said,
2 As God liveth, who hath taken away my judgment; and the Almighty, who hath vexed my soul;
Job 19:21 Have pity upon me, have pity upon me, O ye my friends; for the hand of God hath touched me.
&#1488;&#1457;&#1500;&#1465;&#1492;&#1460;&#1497;&#1501; again responded in the affirmative and gave the adversary[one of the sons of God] permission to put Job to the test to see whether anyone in a situation such as his would curse &#1488;&#1457;&#1500;&#1465;&#1492;&#1460;&#1497;&#1501; and accuse Him of being unjust.

This is clarification for your instruction. That Job was telling a parable to his three friends does not make the entire book of Job a parable. The word for parable occurs only twice in Job chapter 27 and 29.

&#1488;&#1457;&#1500;&#1465;&#1492;&#1460;&#1497;&#1501; was careful, however, to again set limits on what the adversary could do to Job and said, “Behold, he is in your hand, but spare his life”.

The name/title Satan is self explanatory of the holder’s fault because it literally means adversary in the ancient semitic language that it was originally recorded.

Plagiarized from "The Lore of the Light-Bearer," G. L. Bartholomew

… let the wickedness of the wicked come to an end, But establish the just; for the righteous God tests the hearts and minds. (Psalms 7:9 NKJV)

Out-of-context proof text.

The belief of the Hebrews down to the Babylonian exile seems but dimly to have recognized either Satan or demons, at least as a dogmatic tenet, nor had it many occasions for them, since it treated moral evils as a properly humans act (comp. Gen. 3), and always as subjective and concrete, but regarded misfortunes according to teleological axioms, as a punishment deserved on account of sin at the hand of a righteous God, who inflicted it especially by the agency of one of his angels (2 Sam. 24,16; comp. 2 kings xix, 35), and was according looked upon as the proper author of every afflictive dis&#961;ensation (Amos 3, 64, Apparitions were part of the popular creed : there were beings inimical to mankind inhabiting solitude, but not yet adopted in the association of religious ideas.

Plagiarized from "McClintock Biblical Encyclopedia." As I told you before when you plagiarize I will bring it to your attention.

Earlier, indeed, a Satan, so called by way of eminence, occasionally appears as the malicious author of human misfortune, but only under the divine superintendence: e. g. incites David to a sinful act, (1 Chron. 21, 1); casts suspicions upon Job's piety (Job 1, 6' sq.), and, with Jehovah's permission, inflicts upon him a lot gradually more severe to the utmost point of endurance; appears as the mendacious impeacher (&#945; &#954;&#945;&#964;&#951;&#965;&#969;&#961;, Rev. 12, 10) &#959;f the high-priest Joshua before the angel of God, but draws upon himself the divine malediction (Zech. 3, 1 sq.).

Yet in all this he is as little like the Ahriman of the Zend A&#957;esta (Rhode, Heil. Sage, p. 182 sq.; Matthai, Religionsgloube d. Apostel, II, i, 171 sq.; Creuzer, Symbol. i. 705) as an indifferent prosecuting attorney general or judicial su&#961;erintendent commissioned by Jehovah.

In the Apocrypha, the old Hebrew notion of Jehovah's angels who allot disaster occurs not partially, and in the case mishap over takes the enemies of the pious, the angels are alluded to as Auxiliaries and friends of the latter [Jehovah] (2 &#924;acc. 15, 23 sq.), although we may search in vain such passages for a single mention of daemons. On the other hand, the books of Tobias and Baruch are full of representations concerning them.. (&#948;&#945;&#953;&#956;&#972;&#957;&#953;a), while they never refer to &#931;&#945;&#964;&#945;&#957;.

Plagiarized from "Cyclopaedia of Biblical, Theological, and Ecclesiastical Literature."

Babylonian Talmud, Baba Bathra Job 9:2 I know it is so of a truth: but how should man be just with God? 24 The earth is given into the hand of the wicked: he covereth the faces of the judges thereof; if not, where, and who is he? 33 Neither is there any daysman betwixt us, that might lay his hand upon us both.

What is the Talmud reference for? Any particular tractate or portfolio?

 

[he-man]

This is clarification for your instruction. That Job was telling a parable to his three friends does not make the entire book of Job a parable.

Says who? Talk about evading the question, Try, try, again to answer the verses posted and not attack the poster.

If it wasn't the Angel of God who was testing Job and was vexing him why do you think Job said that?Job 27:1 Moreover Job continued his parable, and said,
2 As God liveth, who hath taken away my judgment; and the Almighty, who hath vexed my soul; Job 19:21 Have pity upon me, have pity upon me, O ye my friends; for the hand of God hath touched me.

Are you saying that God did not give the adversary permission to test Job?
&#1488;&#1457;&#1500;&#1465;&#1492;&#1460;&#1497;&#1501; again responded in the affirmative and gave the adversary[one of the sons of God] permission to put Job to the test to see whether anyone in a situation such as his would curse &#1488;&#1457;&#1500;&#1465;&#1492;&#1460;&#1497;&#1501; and accuse Him of being unjust.

&#1488;&#1457;&#1500;&#1465;&#1492;&#1460;&#1497;&#1501; was careful, however, to again set limits on what the adversary could do to Job and said, “Behold, he is in your hand, but spare his life”.

The name/title Satan is self explanatory of the holder’s fault because it literally means adversary in the ancient semitic language that it was originally recorded. The Lore of the Light-Bearer," G. L. Bartholomew

This is from the Bible:
Then the LORD said to Satan, “Have you considered My servant Job, that there is none like him on the earth, a blameless and upright man, one who fears God and shuns evil? And still he holds fast to his integrity, although you incited Me against him, to destroy him without cause.” (Job 2:3 NKJV)

Then all his brothers, all his sisters, and all those who had been his acquaintances before, came to him and ate food with him in his house; and they consoled him and comforted him for all the adversity that the LORD had brought upon him.

This is from the Bible too check your out of context cross reference, it says it is God who tests, not a superstitious superhuman spirit devil
… let the wickedness of the wicked come to an end, But establish the just; for the righteous God tests the hearts and minds. (Psalms 7:9 NKJV)

The belief of the Hebrews down to the Babylonian exile seems but dimly to have recognized either Satan or demons, at least as a dogmatic tenet, nor had it many occasions for them, since it treated moral evils as a properly humans act (comp. Gen. 3), and always as subjective and concrete, but regarded misfortunes according to teleological axioms, as a punishment deserved on account of sin at the hand of a righteous God, who inflicted it especially by the agency of one of his angels (2 Sam. 24,16; comp. 2 kings xix, 35), and was according looked upon as the proper author of every afflictive dis&#961;ensation (Amos 3, 64, Apparitions were part of the popular creed : there were beings inimical to mankind inhabiting solitude, but not yet adopted in the association of religious ideas. "McClintock Biblical Encyclopedia." Okay, what is you answer then?

Earlier, indeed, a Satan, so called by way of eminence, occasionally appears as the malicious author of human misfortune, but only under the divine superintendence: e. g. incites David to a sinful act, (1 Chron. 21, 1); casts suspicions upon Job's piety (Job 1, 6' sq.), and, with Jehovah's permission, inflicts upon him a lot gradually more severe to the utmost point of endurance; appears as the mendacious impeacher (&#945; &#954;&#945;&#964;&#951;&#965;&#969;&#961;, Rev. 12, 10) &#959;f the high-priest Joshua before the angel of God, but draws upon himself the divine malediction (Zech. 3, 1 sq.).

Yet in all this he is as little like the Ahriman of the Zend A&#957;esta (Rhode, Heil. Sage, p. 182 sq.; Matthai, Religionsgloube d. Apostel, II, i, 171 sq.; Creuzer, Symbol. i. 705) as an indifferent prosecuting attorney general or judicial su&#961;erintendent commissioned by Jehovah.

In the Apocrypha, the old Hebrew notion of Jehovah's angels who allot disaster occurs not partially, and in the case mishap over takes the enemies of the pious, the angels are alluded to as Auxiliaries and friends of the latter [Jehovah] (2 &#924;acc. 15, 23 sq.), although we may search in vain such passages for a single mention of daemons. On the other hand, the books of Tobias and Baruch are full of representations concerning them.. (&#948;&#945;&#953;&#956;&#972;&#957;&#953;a), while they never refer to &#931;&#945;&#964;&#945;&#957;. "Cyclopaedia of Biblical, Theological, and Ecclesiastical Literature." Thank you for your help, I could not remember where it came from, so what is your answer?

Babylonian Talmud, Baba Bathra Job 9:2 I know it is so of a truth: but how should man be just with God? 24 The earth is given into the hand of the wicked: he covereth the faces of the judges thereof; if not, where, and who is he? 33 Neither is there any daysman betwixt us, that might lay his hand upon us both. Babylonian Talmud, Baba Bathra KJV, ESV, Pulpit Commentary, Gill's Exposition, Jamieson-Fausset-Brown Bible Commentary.

He rather says that there was no one above God, or no umpire uninterested in the controversy, before whom the cause could be argued, and who would be competent to decide the matter in issue between him and his Maker. Barnes' Notes