Is Hell Really Eternal?

[Timothew]

"Destruction" does not mean "never destroyed", as some people claim.



Obviously

 

[he-man]

"Destruction" does not mean "never destroyed", as some people claim. Obviously

The word ἀπόλλυμι/Appolumi occurs 86 times in the NT.
(a. of pers. (Sir 10:3 ) Mk 1:24 ; Lk 4:34 . W. ref. to eternal destruction mh; .

a. of pers. perish, die ( schol. on Nicander , Ther. 188 ajpovllutai oJ ajnhvr =the man dies) 1 Cl 51:5; 55:6; B 5:4, 12; D 16:5; Of individuals (Lev 23:30 ) Ac 5:37 ; 2 Pt 3:9 ; 1 Cl 12:6; 39:5 (Job 4:20 ).—Esp. of eternal death ( cf. Ps 9:6 f ; 36:20; 67:3 ; 91:10 ; Is 41:11 ) J 3:16 ; 17:12 . ajpolevsqai eij" to;n aijw`na perish forever 10:28 (Bar 3:3 hJmei`" ajpolluvmenoi to;n aijw`na). ajnovmw" aj. Ro 2:12 ;
BAG Lexicon online

 

[DrBubbaLove]

And a view of life that says we are all annihilated/destroyed at death makes impossible any thought of an afterlife. For a sentient being to cease to exist, it is not possible to say that the same being can exist again. At best one could only argue for a copy being recreated.

 

[he-man]

And a view of life that says we are all annihilated/destroyed at death makes impossible any thought of an afterlife. For a sentient being to cease to exist, it is not possible to say that the same being can exist again. At best one could only argue for a copy being recreated.

Who said anything about everyone being annihilated?

They are as wax melteth before the fire, so let the ungodly perish from the Face of God. Vaporized, like smoke at the presence of God, and shall pay the penalty of everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord.

Psa 37:20 But the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the LORD shall be as the fat of lambs: they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away

Psa 1:4 The ungodly are not so: but are like the chaff which the wind driveth away.
5 Therefore the ungodly shall not stand in the judgment, nor sinners in the congregation of the righteous.
6 For the LORD knoweth the way of the righteous: but the way of the ungodly shall perish.

 

[DrBubbaLove]

Who said anything about everyone being annihilated?

They are as wax melteth before the fire, so let the ungodly perish from the Face of God. Vaporized, like smoke at the presence of God, and shall pay the penalty of everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord.

Psa 37:20 But the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the LORD shall be as the fat of lambs: they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away

Psa 1:4 The ungodly are not so: but are like the chaff which the wind driveth away.
5 Therefore the ungodly shall not stand in the judgment, nor sinners in the congregation of the righteous.
6 For the LORD knoweth the way of the righteous: but the way of the ungodly shall perish.

If that is not your view, then why bother responding?
There are many views in UT land and we have to address them all.

 

[DrBubbaLove]

Who said anything about everyone being annihilated?

They are as wax melteth before the fire, so let the ungodly perish from the Face of God. Vaporized, like smoke at the presence of God, and shall pay the penalty of everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord.

Psa 37:20 But the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the LORD shall be as the fat of lambs: they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away

Psa 1:4 The ungodly are not so: but are like the chaff which the wind driveth away.
5 Therefore the ungodly shall not stand in the judgment, nor sinners in the congregation of the righteous.
6 For the LORD knoweth the way of the righteous: but the way of the ungodly shall perish.

But since you brought it up, your view is not so different.

One cannot have "eternal" or "everlasting" anything applied to something said to no longer exists. So a rendering of those verses to an understanding which says beings are annihilated, as in cease to exist, creates a similar problem as Timothew has saying we are all annihilated at death (he just has us all "coming back" from that state - with the damned then returning to that state and never to "come back" again).

It is not possible to speak of something which is said to not exist, as being "everlasting" anything "from the presence of the Lord". A separation works, and separating something from the purpose for which it is made is certainly a form of both destruction and punishment. Ceasing to exist is ceasing to exist, it makes no sense to modify that "state" as if it was not permanent or speak of it as if the thing said not to exist could return or is being "held" somewhere in limbo "from the presence of the Lord".

 

[he-man]

If that is not your view, then why bother responding? There are many views in UT land and we have to address them all.

UT land, you mean the ungodly ones who think you will be punished with physical torture or the ones who think you cannot exist but can exist again?
God will keep His promises:
Psa 1:4 The ungodly are not so: but are like the chaff which the wind driveth away.
5 Therefore the ungodly shall not stand in the judgment, nor sinners in the congregation of the righteous.
6 For the LORD knoweth the way of the righteous: but the way of the ungodly shall perish.

Of individuals (Lev 23:30 ) Ac 5:37 ; 2 Pt 3:9 ; 1 Cl 12:6; 39:5 (Job 4:20 ).—Esp. of eternal death ( cf. Ps 9:6 f ; 36:20; 67:3 ; 91:10 ; Is 41:11 ) J 3:16 ; 17:12 . ajpolevsqai eij" to;n aijw`na perish forever

 

[DrBubbaLove]

UT land, you mean the ungodly ones who think you will be punished with physical torture or the ones who think you cannot exist but can exist again?
God will keep His promises:
Psa 1:4 The ungodly are not so: but are like the chaff which the wind driveth away.
5 Therefore the ungodly shall not stand in the judgment, nor sinners in the congregation of the righteous.
6 For the LORD knoweth the way of the righteous: but the way of the ungodly shall perish.

Of individuals (Lev 23:30 ) Ac 5:37 ; 2 Pt 3:9 ; 1 Cl 12:6; 39:5 (Job 4:20 ).—Esp. of eternal death ( cf. Ps 9:6 f ; 36:20; 67:3 ; 91:10 ; Is 41:11 ) J 3:16 ; 17:12 . ajpolevsqai eij" to;n aijw`na perish forever

By UT land I mean the section of this forum where Christians holding views like the ones presented here are restricted to.
Noticed the most offending/damaging verse to this view was removed from this last copy and paste. Why was that?

 

[he-man]

But since you brought it up, your view is not so different. One cannot have "eternal" or "everlasting" anything applied to something said to no longer exists.

God does not agree with you. He says He will vaporize the ungodly so that they are to no longer exist: They are as wax melteth before the fire, so let the ungodly perish from the Face of God. Vaporized, like smoke at the presence of God, and shall pay the penalty of everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord

Ps 37:20 But the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the LORD shall be as the fat of lambs: they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away

I guess it depends on whom you wish to believe, God or Timothew.
Ps 1:4 The ungodly are not so: but are like the chaff which the wind driveth away.
5 Therefore the ungodly shall not stand in the judgment, nor sinners in the congregation of the righteous

Ps 37:20 But the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the LORD shall be as the fat of lambs: they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away

Psa 18:8 There went up a smoke out of his nostrils, and fire out of his mouth devoured: coals were kindled by it.

Psa 68:2 As smoke is driven away, so drive them away: as wax melteth before the fire, so let the ungodly perish from the face of God.

2Th 1:9 who shall pay the penalty of everlasting destruction from the face of the Lord, and from the glory of his might,

Isa 9:18 For wickedness burneth as the fire: it shall devour the briers and thorns, and shall kindle in the thickets of the forest, and they shall mount up like the lifting up of smoke.

Hos 13:3 Therefore they shall be as the morning cloud, and as the early dew that passeth away, as the chaff that is driven with the whirlwind out of the floor, and as the smoke out of the chimney.

Ecc 9:6 Their love and their hate and their envy have already perished, and forever they have no more share in all that is done under the sun.

Psa 146:4 When his breath departs, he returns to the earth; on that very day his plans perish.

2Th 1:9 They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, away from the face of God and from the glory of his might,

Mat 7:23 And then will I declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.'

Luk 13:25 When once the master of the house has risen and shut the door, and you begin to stand outside and to knock at the door, saying, 'Lord, open to us,' then he will answer you, 'I do not know where you come from.'

Mat 25:33 And he will place the sheep on his right, but the goats on the left.

 

[DrBubbaLove]

God does not agree with you. He says He will vaporize the ungodly so that they are to no longer exist: They are as wax melteth before the fire, so let the ungodly perish from the Face of God. Vaporized, like smoke at the presence of God, and shall pay the penalty of everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord

Ps 37:20 But the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the LORD shall be as the fat of lambs: they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away

I guess it depends on whom you wish to believe, God or Timothew.
Ps 1:4 The ungodly are not so: but are like the chaff which the wind driveth away.
5 Therefore the ungodly shall not stand in the judgment, nor sinners in the congregation of the righteous

Ps 37:20 But the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the LORD shall be as the fat of lambs: they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away

Psa 18:8 There went up a smoke out of his nostrils, and fire out of his mouth devoured:coals were kindled by it.

Psa 68:2 As smoke is driven away, so drive them away: as wax melteth before the fire, so let the ungodly perish from the face of God.

2Th 1:9 who shall pay the penalty of everlasting destruction from the face of the Lord, and from the glory of his might,

Isa 9:18 For wickedness burneth as the fire: it shall devour the briers and thorns, and shall kindle in the thickets of the forest, and they shall mount up like the lifting up of smoke.

Hos 13:3 Therefore they shall be as the morning cloud, and as the early dew that passeth away, as the chaff that is driven with the whirlwind out of the floor, and as the smoke out of the chimney.

Ecc 9:6 Their love and their hate and their envy have already perished, and forever they have no more share in all that is done under the sun.

Psa 146:4 When his breath departs, he returns to the earth; on that very day his plans perish.

2Th 1:9 They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, away from the face of God and from the glory of his might,

Mat 7:23 And then will I declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.'

Luk 13:25 When once the master of the house has risen and shut the door, and you begin to stand outside and to knock at the door, saying, 'Lord, open to us,' then he will answer you, 'I do not know where you come from.'

Mat 25:33 And he will place the sheep on his right, but the goats on the left.

So you have said repeatedly - and without answering questions regarding the rendering of these verses to your understanding of the fate of the damned.

Why not defend one's rendering of these verses rather than just claiming it means what you say it means?

 

[he-man]

Why not defend one's rendering of these verses rather than just claiming it means what you say it means?

I only show what God says about it, not what others translate as their own dogma. What is your excuse for not believing what is written?

They are as wax melteth before the fire, so let the ungodly perish from the Face of God. Vaporized, like smoke at the presence of God, and shall pay the penalty of everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord

Ps 37:20 But the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the LORD shall be as the fat of lambs: they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away

I guess it depends on whom you wish to believe, God or Timothew.
Ps 1:4 The ungodly are not so: but are like the chaff which the wind driveth away.
5 Therefore the ungodly shall not stand in the judgment, nor sinners in the congregation of the righteous

Ps 37:20 But the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the LORD shall be as the fat of lambs: they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away

Psa 18:8 There went up a smoke out of his nostrils, and fire out of his mouth devoured:coals were kindled by it.

Psa 68:2 As smoke is driven away, so drive them away: as wax melteth before the fire, so let the ungodly perish from the face of God.

2Th 1:9 who shall pay the penalty of everlasting destruction from the face of the Lord, and from the glory of his might,

Isa 9:18 For wickedness burneth as the fire: it shall devour the briers and thorns, and shall kindle in the thickets of the forest, and they shall mount up like the lifting up of smoke.

Hos 13:3 Therefore they shall be as the morning cloud, and as the early dew that passeth away, as the chaff that is driven with the whirlwind out of the floor, and as the smoke out of the chimney.

Ecc 9:6 Their love and their hate and their envy have already perished, and forever they have no more share in all that is done under the sun.

Psa 146:4 When his breath departs, he returns to the earth; on that very day his plans perish.

2Th 1:9 They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, away from the face of God and from the glory of his might,

Mat 7:23 And then will I declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.'

Luk 13:25 When once the master of the house has risen and shut the door, and you begin to stand outside and to knock at the door, saying, 'Lord, open to us,' then he will answer you, 'I do not know where you come from.'

Mat 25:33 And he will place the sheep on his right, but the goats on the left.
9th February 2014 09:22 AM

 

[DrBubbaLove]

I only show what God says about it, not what others translate as their own dogma. What is your excuse for not believing what is written?

Posting Scripture and claiming one understands what it means are not the same as saying (and defending) that one's claim is true or that one's understanding equates to what God says about it.

Which is why I asked how something said to not exist could be said to be "eternally" separated. None existence does not need a qualifier like location or limits or everlasting or separated. Something either is or is not. If it "is not" then one cannot speak about "where" it "is not" as that makes no sense. That is obvious because ONLY if it "is not" cannot it NOT be anywhere, including the "presence of the Lord".

So rather than just make claims, please defend one's position. How can something that "is not" be thought of as eternally not "somewhere"?

 

[he-man]

Posting Scripture and claiming one understands what it means are not the same as saying (and defending) that one's claim is true or that one's understanding equates to what God says about it.

So where is your scripture? Can you address the scripture with scripture?

Such is the case with the ungodly that perish from the face of God and that means before they will see the face of God, they do not exist because they have already been vaporized like smoke and will never be seen again for all eternity.

God does not agree with you. He says He will vaporize the ungodly so that they are to no longer exist: They are as wax melteth before the fire, so let the ungodly perish from the Face of God. Vaporized, like smoke at the presence of God, and shall pay the penalty of everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord

Ps 37:20 But the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the LORD shall be as the fat of lambs: they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away

I guess it depends on whom you wish to believe, God or Timothew.
Ps 1:4 The ungodly are not so: but are like the chaff which the wind driveth away.
5 Therefore the ungodly shall not stand in the judgment, nor sinners in the congregation of the righteous

Ps 37:20 But the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the LORD shall be as the fat of lambs: they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away

Psa 18:8 There went up a smoke out of his nostrils, and fire out of his mouth devoured:coals were kindled by it.

Psa 68:2 As smoke is driven away, so drive them away: as wax melteth before the fire, so let the ungodly perish from the face of God.

2Th 1:9 who shall pay the penalty of everlasting destruction from the face of the Lord, and from the glory of his might,

Isa 9:18 For wickedness burneth as the fire: it shall devour the briers and thorns, and shall kindle in the thickets of the forest, and they shall mount up like the lifting up of smoke.

Hos 13:3 Therefore they shall be as the morning cloud, and as the early dew that passeth away, as the chaff that is driven with the whirlwind out of the floor, and as the smoke out of the chimney.

Ecc 9:6 Their love and their hate and their envy have already perished, and forever they have no more share in all that is done under the sun.

Psa 146:4 When his breath departs, he returns to the earth; on that very day his plans perish.

2Th 1:9 They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, away from the face of God and from the glory of his might,

Mat 7:23 And then will I declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.'

Luk 13:25 When once the master of the house has risen and shut the door, and you begin to stand outside and to knock at the door, saying, 'Lord, open to us,' then he will answer you, 'I do not know where you come from.'

Mat 25:33 And he will place the sheep on his right, but the goats on the left.

 

[DrBubbaLove]

So where is your scripture? Can you address the scripture with scripture?

Such is the case with the ungodly that perish from the face of God and that means before they will see the face of God, they do not exist because they have already been vaporized like smoke and will never be seen again for all eternity.

God does not agree with you. He says He will vaporize the ungodly so that they are to no longer exist: They are as wax melteth before the fire, so let the ungodly perish from the Face of God. Vaporized, like smoke at the presence of God, and shall pay the penalty of everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord

This same mantra has been repeated several times now. Repeating oneself is not defending what is being said. We are not having a discussion because of a stubborn refusal to answer how one's view makes any sense at all within that understanding of the very Scripture one is posting - specifically regarding the need for ANYONE to talk about the "everlasting" "presence" of something which is said to no longer exist.

One cannot have on the one hand something not existing, then on the other hand talk about that thing as not being in the "presence of the Lord". If that was actually the understanding of the original writer, it is redundant and nonsensical to say something no longer exists and is ALSO not present. Of course it is not present BECAUSE it is claimed it no longer exists.
Why ask for more Scripture when one either cannot or refuses to explain how one's understanding of it makes any sense to oneself?

 

[Phantasman]

Eugnostos says it best here:

Now a difference existed among the imperishable aeons. Let us, then, consider (it) this way: Everything that came from the perishable will perish, since it came from the perishable. Whatever came from imperishableness will not perish but will become imperishable, since it came from imperishableness. So, many men went astray because they had not known this difference; that is, they died.


But this much is enough, since it is impossible for anyone to dispute the nature of the words I have just spoken about the blessed, imperishable, true God. Now, if anyone wants to believe the words set down (here), let him go from what is hidden to the end of what is visible, and this Thought will instruct him how faith in those things that are not visible was found in what is visible. This is a principle of knowledge.



We see "eternal"as time never ending. But time is not allotted to God the Father, who has always been. IOWs, we cannot apprehend the spiritual by placing physicals laws to it. What is eternity to us may not be eternity in another Aeon (or realm). We depend on parables to associate likeness. We cannot place faith in the literal, but the imagined (image) we see. And even then, we probably don't understand.


I believe perishable and imperishable gives a better image. We know that this Aeon (realm, universe) is perishable. And that we do not understand the imperishable, or the "infinities". We can only perceive them on a physical level, with a physical mind.

 

[DrBubbaLove]

So by this last then we should have no faith that Heaven is eternal?

 

[Phantasman]

So by this last then we should have no faith that Heaven is eternal?

Infinite sounds better. No barriers including death.

 

[DrBubbaLove]

Infinite sounds better. No barriers including death.

Ok, so Hell is not "infinite" and we should have no hope that Heaven is "infinite". Does that sound better?

 

[he-man]

This same mantra has been repeated several times now. Repeating oneself is not defending what is being said.

You did not say anything with scripture! So where is your scripture? Can you address the scripture with scripture?

Such is the case with the ungodly that perish from the face of God and that means before they will see the face of God, they do not exist because they have already been vaporized like smoke and will never be seen again for all eternity.
God says He will vaporize the ungodly so that they are to no longer exist: They are as wax melteth before the fire, so let the ungodly perish from the Face of God. Vaporized, like smoke at the presence of God, and shall pay the penalty of everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord

Ps 37:20 But the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the LORD shall be as the fat of lambs: they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away

I guess it depends on whom you wish to believe, God or Timothew.
Ps 1:4 The ungodly are not so: but are like the chaff which the wind driveth away.
5 Therefore the ungodly shall not stand in the judgment, nor sinners in the congregation of the righteous

Ps 37:20 But the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the LORD shall be as the fat of lambs: they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away

Psa 18:8 There went up a smoke out of his nostrils, and fire out of his mouth devoured:coals were kindled by it.

Psa 68:2 As smoke is driven away, so drive them away: as wax melteth before the fire, so let the ungodly perish from the face of God.

2Th 1:9 who shall pay the penalty of everlasting destruction from the face of the Lord, and from the glory of his might,

Isa 9:18 For wickedness burneth as the fire: it shall devour the briers and thorns, and shall kindle in the thickets of the forest, and they shall mount up like the lifting up of smoke.

Hos 13:3 Therefore they shall be as the morning cloud, and as the early dew that passeth away, as the chaff that is driven with the whirlwind out of the floor, and as the smoke out of the chimney.

Ecc 9:6 Their love and their hate and their envy have already perished, and forever they have no more share in all that is done under the sun.

Psa 146:4 When his breath departs, he returns to the earth; on that very day his plans perish.

2Th 1:9 They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, away from the face of God and from the glory of his might,

Mat 7:23 And then will I declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.'

Luk 13:25 When once the master of the house has risen and shut the door, and you begin to stand outside and to knock at the door, saying, 'Lord, open to us,' then he will answer you, 'I do not know where you come from.'

Mat 25:33 And he will place the sheep on his right, but the goats on the left.

 

[DrBubbaLove]

You did not say anything with scripture! So where is your scripture? Can you address the scripture with scripture?

Actually I mentioned it several times as well as mentioning the futility of quoting Scripture with someone obviously unable to do anything but quote Scripture. I also addressed Scripture with Scripture by asking how one's view of a single Scripture makes any sense at all given said Scripture clearly says a thing exists somewhere, when the UT claim promoted by giving that quote is that same Scripture says it does not exist.

The fact one cannot explain demonstrates all one has is a claim that it must mean that and not even a real understanding of what one is claiming. Anyone with a memory or photocopier can create lists of Scripture to support a claim. Being able to explain/defend (apologetics) how the specific claim makes sense is harder and requires mental exercise, not rote memory, regurgitation or Scripture quote challenges.

I made it simple, explain how just one verse that one quoted makes any sense at all given one's claim that an object of that verse does not exist, yet same verse has it existing because it describes WHERE it is (negatively).

Again many pastors can quote Scripture all day, but ask them to explain how a main tenant of a claim they make regarding how that Scripture is to be understood makes any sense at all and they fall apart. Rote regurgitation of Scripture without the ability to explain how one's view makes any sense is not apologetics.

The whole point of having a UT section is for people holding such views to explain why their view is congruent with Scripture and how a particular point is congruent with other normative points of the Christian faith. That is all I am asking here. UT section is not here as a pulpit to spout sermons on various UT beliefs or rants against orthodox beliefs.