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Ask a physicist anything. (8)

Hammster

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MOD HAT ON
Superman_Visor_Blue.jpg

Reopening.

But, no flaming. Let your arguments speak for themselves. You should be confident enough in your position that you don't need to flame the opposition.
MOD HAT OFF
 
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Wiccan_Child

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Wiccan_Child

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NO WAY, seriously????? Please, no.... nobody is REALLY that thick are they?? I was joking!
Why not? The thread says "Ask a physicist anything". I've been asked everything from the derivation of the normal distribution, to whether I prefer tuna or chicken in my sandwiches.
 
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Elendur

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Oooh.

On a side-note, I'm struck by how much this all sounds like alchemical gibberish of Lee, Newton, and others. It's demonstrable, but to the untrained eye, it's nonsense talk. Teleporting energy using squeezed light? Bloody scientists!
The best kind of talk there is ;)
 
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Chesterton

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Yes, a trap. Darn it, foiled again! I was hoping for a quantum answer(s) like "Your butt is in superposition, so yes and no and maybe and it exists and doesn't exist at the same time until some smart scientists with expensive equipment observe your butt."
 
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Chesterton

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...which raises a question. What if Schroedinger's (sp?) cat experiment were actually performed in duplicate? In one room, two boxes, two cats, two atoms and two human observers. If the separate observers opened their separate boxes at the same time, could they find a live cat in one box and a dead cat in the other? What role does the human mind play in quantum mechanics? I know there are many philosophical interpretations of QM, and I guess that's why I'm asking.
 
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Wiccan_Child

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...which raises a question. What if Schroedinger's (sp?) cat experiment were actually performed in duplicate? In one room, two boxes, two cats, two atoms and two human observers. If the separate observers opened their separate boxes at the same time, could they find a live cat in one box and a dead cat in the other? What role does the human mind play in quantum mechanics? I know there are many philosophical interpretations of QM, and I guess that's why I'm asking.
I'm not sure I understand. If the two systems are completely separate, they wouldn't affect each other. They could find two living cats, two dead cats, or one of each.

The human mind plays no special role. The 'observer' is any physical interaction - in QM, an 'observer' could be a single atom. So long as it physically interacts with the system and thus causes a wavefunction collapses, it suffices as an 'observation'. The term is inaccurate, but particle physicists are a sentimental lot.
 
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Justatruthseeker

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...which raises a question. What if Schroedinger's (sp?) cat experiment were actually performed in duplicate? In one room, two boxes, two cats, two atoms and two human observers. If the separate observers opened their separate boxes at the same time, could they find a live cat in one box and a dead cat in the other? What role does the human mind play in quantum mechanics? I know there are many philosophical interpretations of QM, and I guess that's why I'm asking.

It doesn't matter if the box is opened or not, the cat is either dead or alive depending on the atom, your opening the box to observe the outcome effects it not at all. In reality the cat is not both alive and dead, it is one or the other, and your observation of the result affects the result not at all, it only allows you to observe what occurred afterwards. To know the result. If the atom decays, the cat is dead, if the atom doesn't it is alive, and no amount of opening the box to observe the results will change what the atom did.
 
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Wiccan_Child

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It doesn't matter if the box is opened or not, the cat is either dead or alive depending on the atom, your opening the box to observe the outcome effects it not at all. In reality the cat is not both alive and dead, it is one or the other, and your observation of the result affects the result not at all, it only allows you to observe what occurred afterwards. To know the result. If the atom decays, the cat is dead, if the atom doesn't it is alive, and no amount of opening the box to observe the results will change what the atom did.
It's a thought experiment; in reality, the macroscopic nature of the system precludes it ever being in such a state. The point is to highlight the counter-intuitive nature of superposition, that something can be it two mutually exclusive states at once until such time it becomes observed.

The macroscopic state of the system notwithstanding (not to mention its own cognition), the cat is both dead and alive, until such time that it is observed.
 
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Chesterton

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The human mind plays no special role. The 'observer' is any physical interaction - in QM, an 'observer' could be a single atom. So long as it physically interacts with the system and thus causes a wavefunction collapses, it suffices as an 'observation'. The term is inaccurate, but particle physicists are a sentimental lot.

I always thought a big part of the thought experiment was the opening of the box and being observed by a human (or measured by human-made equipment). I've never heard that the observer could be the atom itself. But it's also the cause, right? Makes the atom seem sort of god-like.
 
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Loudmouth

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I always thought a big part of the thought experiment was the opening of the box and being observed by a human (or measured by human-made equipment). I've never heard that the observer could be the atom itself. But it's also the cause, right? Makes the atom seem sort of god-like.

(I am not a physicist, but this is my understanding of the situation)

It just makes the atom something with mass that interacts with photons. Once that interaction occurs then the photon has to be in that spot and it collapses the wave-function of the photon. Prior to that point, there is a probability of what could occur. Once something does happen, those probabilities collapse into 1 outcome, what actually happened.
 
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Justatruthseeker

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It's a thought experiment; in reality, the macroscopic nature of the system precludes it ever being in such a state. The point is to highlight the counter-intuitive nature of superposition, that something can be it two mutually exclusive states at once until such time it becomes observed.

The macroscopic state of the system notwithstanding (not to mention its own cognition), the cat is both dead and alive, until such time that it is observed.


That is a though experiment that leads down a dead end road. There is no such thing as a particle capable of being in two states simultaneously until it is observed. It is one or the other, always has been, you just observe it in one of the possible states at any given time. Just as two objects on set courses and velocities will ALWAYS interact in one predictable outcome. Such are the laws of physics. Two billard balls colliding will always react in one, and only one course of action, depending on their velocities and angles of interaction. Once speed and angle is set, there can be but one outcome. Don't go down the dead end road of particles being in different states simultaneously, that is simply sciences cop-out for not understanding all the variables involved.

The ultimate goal of science is to simplify the natural world, not complicate it with theories that in reality explain nothing at all. But being tenor-ship requires a set amount of published papers, papers are written that have nothing to do with reality that creep into dogmatic belief.

In reality we simply lack the technology and knowledge to account for all the unseen variables, so we hedge our bets and describe it in both states, so one or the other is always true, and observation seems to back theory. But it only hides a flaw in the underlying theories themselves.

Just as if you believe in resonance, that an electron here will resonate instantly with an electron on the other side of the universe, then you are propagating belief in a force capable of FTL interaction. And if that is true, then it is also possible for gravity to be an instantaneous action at a distance force. Declared impossible, so by extension, so is resonance. It can not be both ways.

A particle is in one state or another at the time of observation, not both states simultaneously until observed. It may take another 100 years before we are capable of understanding all the variables involved, but we should not propagate incorrect theories simply because that would leave us without an explanation, but should instead search for one. Better to have no theory, than to continue with an incorrect one.
 
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