Wine vs. Grape Juice

[Lion King]

Also- these 'what if' scenarios are putting human limitations on God. 'What if I'm allergic, gluten intolerant, etc.?' 'What if I'm an alcoholic?' Christ is in the Eucharist, folks. I take the body and blood of Christ from a communal spoon that has been dipped into a communal chalice (filled with water, wine, and bread) and given to a lot of people before me- and I've survived (and so has everyone else who receives this way). It's a faith thing. To change the elements is to put your own views and needs over what God wants.

Are you suggesting that those who suffer from wine allergy should go ahead and consume wine presented at the LORD's supper as God will protect them?

 

[MKJ]

There were some places in the past where lack of locally produced wine was an issue. This was one of the reasons it became common in some places to give communion in one kind.

It was never considered acceptable to give a substitute.

As well, I seem to recall that sometimes in such places they would use the solid portion of the wine must, which could be more easily carried or imported, and add water, to make a reconstituted wine. I'm afraid i don't recall where I heard this.

For those who have concerns about alcohol content, must is considered to be wine - it just has not as of yet fermented much. So the alcohol content is just what was present in the grapes before crushing. Unike grape juice however, it has not been pasteurized.

 

[abysmul]

To change the elements is to put your own views and needs over what God wants.

I'm curious, do you really believe that's what Christ wanted those with him at that last meal to take away from the experience? "Don't change the elements!"

 

[MKJ]

Repeat of an older post of mine:
Let me put it to you this way: This wasn't even a discussion or question that occurred before the advent of the Temperance Movement in the United States starting back in the mid-1800s. Thomas Bramwell Welch invented the process to stop fermentation in 1869. That's how new this issue of yours is. Wine is fermented. Every time the scriptures mention wine it means there's alcohol in it. Can't get around that.

People around here keep playing these 'what if' scenarios. If obtaining communion wine was a real problem in the last 2000 years, we would have heard about it. My God provides. Clergy who had been imprisoned found a way to put together vestments and celebrate Divine Liturgy for the Pascha of 1945 at Dachau with the correct elements. In Iran, Christians have recently been sentenced to receiving 80 lashes for using wine during communion. If they can get it together the rest of us don't have much of an excuse.

Also- these 'what if' scenarios are putting human limitations on God. 'What if I'm allergic, gluten intolerant, etc.?' 'What if I'm an alcoholic?' Christ is in the Eucharist, folks. I take the body and blood of Christ from a communal spoon that has been dipped into a communal chalice (filled with water, wine, and bread) and given to a lot of people before me- and I've survived (and so has everyone else who receives this way). It's a faith thing. To change the elements is to put your own views and needs over what God wants.

While I know plenty of alcoholics who have no issue with wine in the context of communion, IME many people with issues like celiac disease do in fact find it is an issue, including in the Orthodox church.

So I don't really see how that is putting human limits on God.

If we think that the chemical make-up of the Blood and Body become different, I have to wonder about the common experience priests have of becoming tipsy after consuming what is left over.

 

[Kristos]

Surely you can see wisdom in a recovered alcoholic not drinking wine. Is he not obeying the Lord if he drinks only juice? If its acceptable then for him to drink only juice, then why would anyone else be any different?

I would not see wisdom in this, rather lack of faith.

 

[ebia]

I consider it a point of adiaphora as well. I would note that Justin Martyr reported in the 2nd century that they cut their wine with water during their services. Other reading I've done indicates that cutting the wine with water was the common way of taking it during meals. Or if we take 1 Timothy 5 into consideration, maybe they were cutting their water with wine.

That's pretty normal - one of the main issues is unsafe water, and you can add a reasonable amount of unsafe water to wine and the anti bacterials in the wine will deal with it if left to stand.

Most of the liturgical churches still add a nominal splash of water to the wine in the chalice.

 

[ebia]

What is wine made out of? Is it not grape juice? Both are of the SAME SUBSTANCE. The only difference is that one is fermented and the other is not.

Fermentation changes the substance, exchanging sugars for alcohol.

 

[Kristos]

Jesus drank of the FRUIT OF THE VINE.

And He said to them, “This is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many. 25 Assuredly, I say to you, I will no longer drink of the fruit of the vine until that day when I drink it new in the kingdom of God.” Mark 14:24-25


As wine is made ENTIRELY from the fruit of the vine, it's acceptable.
As grape juice is made ENTIRELY from the fruit of the vine, it's acceptable.

That's quite a stretch, especially since there is absolutely no way that Mark could have meant modern grape juice because it wasn't invented yet...besides that I don't see any holes in your logic

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Originally Posted by seashale76

Also- these 'what if' scenarios are putting human limitations on God. 'What if I'm allergic, gluten intolerant, etc.?' 'What if I'm an alcoholic?' Christ is in the Eucharist, folks. I take the body and blood of Christ from a communal spoon that has been dipped into a communal chalice (filled with water, wine, and bread) and given to a lot of people before me- and I've survived (and so has everyone else who receives this way). It's a faith thing. To change the elements is to put your own views and needs over what God wants.
​

Are you suggesting that those who suffer from wine allergy should go ahead and consume wine presented at the LORD's supper as God will protect them?

Paul suffered a bite from a viper and lived, oh ye of little faith..........

Act 28:
3 But when Paul had gathered a bundle of sticks and laid them on the fire, a viper came out because of the heat, and fastened on his hand.
4 So when the natives saw the creature hanging from his hand, they said to one another, “No doubt this man is a murderer, whom, though he has escaped the sea, yet justice does not allow to live.”
5 But he shook off the creature into the fire and suffered no harm.
6 However, they were expecting that he would swell up or suddenly fall down dead.
But after they had looked for a long time and saw no harm come to him, they changed their minds and said that he was a god......

.

.

 

[ebia]

Bread is made out of flour Donuts are made out of flour why not just use donuts???

Or just use flour?

 

[Thekla]

I consider it a point of adiaphora as well.

I would note that Justin Martyr reported in the 2nd century that they cut their wine with water during their services. Other reading I've done indicates that cutting the wine with water was the common way of taking it during meals.

Or if we take 1 Timothy 5 into consideration, maybe they were cutting their water with wine.

We still do ... it's not a "cutting" per se, but has a significance -- John 19:34

 

[ebia]

When the Scriptures say the word vine, they are almost always referring to the grape vine.

And when they say fruit of the vine they are almost always referring to wine.

 

[Lion King]

And when they say fruit of the vine they are almost always referring to wine.

Evidence?

 

[MJohn7]

Paul suffered a bite from a viper and lived, oh ye of little faith..........

Act 28:
3 But when Paul had gathered a bundle of sticks and laid them on the fire, a viper came out because of the heat, and fastened on his hand.
4 So when the natives saw the creature hanging from his hand, they said to one another, “No doubt this man is a murderer, whom, though he has escaped the sea, yet justice does not allow to live.”
5 But he shook off the creature into the fire and suffered no harm.
6 However, they were expecting that he would swell up or suddenly fall down dead.
But after they had looked for a long time and saw no harm come to him, they changed their minds and said that he was a god......




.

.

Likewise, if a man cannot take wine because there is none available, or because hes an alcoholic, does faith itself not still sustain him? O ye of little faith?

 

[Thekla]

I mentioned watermelon wine and tomato juice earlier

Tomato is a "new world" (South America) berry

 

[ebia]

Evidence?

Do you seriously think that's not the case?

 

[Lion King]

That's quite a stretch, especially since there is absolutely no way that Mark could have meant modern grape juice because it wasn't invented yet...besides that I don't see any holes in your logic

Grape juice wasn't invented yet? How did the Israelites make wine then?

 

[Lion King]

Do you seriously think that's not the case?

Yes. That's why I asked for Scriptural evidence.

 

[ebia]

Yes. That's why I asked for Scriptural evidence.

What he's holding in his hand - the immediate referent - can only be wine.
The less immediate referent is to the messianic banquet, which is always wine.

 

[abysmul]

Again, what about all the Christians TODAY that have no access to wine?