Utah issues same-sex marriage licenses.

[jckstraw72]

"We promote radical individualism at the expense of community and real human relationships, which does incalculable harm to our notions of personhood and true Christian love, with no end in sight."

As I read the comments on this tread, I asked myself, "what are we going to do about this?" Obviously, coming on here and preaching to the choir isn't going to do anything.
One thing that frustrates me about issues such as this is how there is such a lack of an appropriate response to the ills of society that we bemoan about all the time.

I quoted what Innerphyre said about community because personally, I think that is what has to happen. We Orthodox need to do something similar to what the Amish and Mennonites do. They live in very tight nit communities where the virtues Christian living as they understand it is reinforced by the fact that they live in a semi monastic form of community. And guess what? Everyone knows about the Amish. I've never met anyone who never heard of the Amish. But, do I meet almost every day people who have no idea about Orthodoxy.

I've attempted to propose the idea of living in a much tighter communal setting amongst single Orthodox people and proposed the idea of an Orthodox coffee house that was also going to be adjactent to living quarters for non monastic single Orthodox people.
However, I could not garner enough support for this. Unfortunately, the radical individualism that Innerphyre speaks of has permeated even us. Orthodox people in this country are far more concerned about their careers and their immediate blood family etc.

there are little enclaves here and there throughout the country, but we could certainly stand to have some more. folks from the CSB really seem to understand the value of community and the groups that i am aware of are from Brotherhood people and others in their parishes.

 

[truthseeker32]

How can we combat evil in the world if we all withdraw from it? Sure, everyone knows about the Amish, but I don't know that the Amish have much of an impact beyond selling baked goods and furniture at the occasional farmer's market.

 

[GregConstantine]

"How can we combat evil in the world if we all withdraw from it?"

That same question could be asked of the monastics who live in monasteries apart from the world. It's been said that the prayers of the monastics sustain the world. They pray when we who are in the world cannot.

Nonetheless, a certain assumption is being made here I feel about the idea of banding together in communities. The assumption seems to be that if one were to do so, we are abandoning the world to retreat into our shell for our protection.

This is not what living in a Christian community or koinonia means. Everything that we do, no matter what, is always oriented towards our Lord who came not to be served, but to serve.

While we band together to live in community, these communities I'm envisioning will be located pretty much anywhere, in urban, suburban, and rural areas. We will naturally reach out and serve our respective communities while at the same time living in a context in which yes, we are protected, but not sheltered from the "vices" of the world while cultivating the virtues.

While the Amish are famous for their baked goods and farmer's markets (and good baked goods they have!) they are also famous for how they respond to sin that has been committed against their community. Take for example the Amish school shooting that took place a few years ago. What a witness of forgiveness there were in how that Amish community responded. Who knows what impact that made on anyone. However, the mere fact that they live in such communities is always a reminder of a different way of life and a different choice, or alternative to what the world offers to "worldly" people. The NT (in one of St Peter's epistles I think, but I could be wrong) says that we are to be a "peculiar" people.
We (especially our children) need to be protected from the contrary "values" of the world. Again, I don't mean "sheltered", or that we should put our heads in the sand and let the world go to hell around us. But, living in community will reinforce the holy evangelic life in each other so that we can go out and serve the world around us.

 

[GregConstantine]

and so that we can "combat" the evil in the world.

 

[InnerPhyre]

How can we combat evil in the world if we all withdraw from it? Sure, everyone knows about the Amish, but I don't know that the Amish have much of an impact beyond selling baked goods and furniture at the occasional farmer's market.

I don't think the answer is to become recluses like the Amish, but certainly a greater sense of community in the Orthodox Church would be a good thing. The early Christians lived in tight knit communities, but they still went out into the world to do good and to preach the gospel. I don't think that it's the job of the Christian to fight evil though, but to be holy.

 

[InnerPhyre]

Having given this some more thought, I think that I have a different view on this because I perceive the changes in our culture as less of a threat to my faith, and more of the natural reaction to a society that has been promoting terrible theology for several centuries. What can a society do in the face of the Calvinist God but rebel? As the meme goes, Jesus stands at the door knocking and says "Let me in." The person inside responds "Why?" Jesus assures Him "So I can save you." The person inside asks "From what?" to which Jesus responds "From what I'm going to do to you if you don't let me in."

The terrible Theology of the West has turned God into Saddam Hussein, running an eternal Concentration Camp in hell. At best, He is a flawed being bound eternally by His own sense of Justice that He would love to overcome in order to forgive you, but He can't because after all there are rules! Jesus Christ becomes a Divine whipping boy, beaten to death to satisfy the blood lust of the vengeful Creator.

Who can love that God? Who can think He is worthy of worship? The problem is not the evil sinners rejecting Christianity. The problem is the Christianity being taught by the Christians. The answer is Orthodoxy. The people of the United States are throwing off the shackles of Anselm and Calvin and are looking elsewhere. They are finding solace in the wrong things. They are turning to entertainment, substance abuse, sex, money, commercialism....all the wrong things. Orthodoxy can show them the right things. It can show them the God they were told about is a lie, that holiness is achievable, and that God loves them, truly and deeply.

I cannot even count the number of people who I would categorize as wildly anti-Christian, who after having a 20 minute long conversation about Orthodoxy, sit back and say "You know....that sounds really good actually. That's what I've always believed about God anyway, but no one ever said it to me." I'm not saying spreading the gospel is like shooting fish in a barrel. They might not convert or change their mind toward Christians as a whole, but imagine what would happen if we Christians were spreading pure Orthodoxy instead of all the heretical garbage that fills our Christian bookstores and television networks.

It's our fault. We aren't loving enough. We aren't allowing God's love to show through us. We're arguing over ethnic heritage and jurisdictional boundaries while the world burns.

 

[GregConstantine]

"It's our fault. We aren't loving enough. We aren't allowing God's love to show through us. We're arguing over ethnic heritage and jurisdictional boundaries while the world burns."

which is why we need to start living communal and I explained that I am not saying to be reclusive, but in fact to go back to how it was in the early day of the Church as you described Innerphyre.

The arguing over ethnic heritage and what not is in fact a form of reclusivism.

 

[truthseeker32]

Utah started as a collection of tight-knit communities that claimed to be Christian. Now look at it

 

[ArmyMatt]

Utah started as a collection of tight-knit communities that claimed to be Christian. Now look at it

while this is true (and I know you are kinda joking), I totally see the point of us being more of a community as Orthodox. not all becoming recluses but to be more communal in whatever area we are in. I think though, that we are becoming that, and it's just gonna take some time.

 

[buzuxi02]

Wasnt their a vote which banned same sex marriage in Utah but some court reversed it? If so it gives me more reason to be anti- democracy.

Regardless, it means an elite few have enslaved the majority to their will.

 

[ArmyMatt]

Wasnt their a vote which banned same sex marriage in Utah but some court reversed it? If so it gives me more reason to be anti- democracy.

Regardless, it means an elite few have enslaved the majority to their will.

that's not democracy, that's oligarchy

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

Perhaps it makes us want to vomit and we don't want to discuss it!

Surprised no one has mentioned it yet, but New Mexico also legalized same-sex marriage today.

New Mexico legalizes same-sex marriage - U.S. News

 

[buzuxi02]

that's not democracy, that's oligarchy

Army correct. I'm in the dark on the current events as I was on a month long trip to Greece. If my facts are correct that same sex marriage was defeated at the ballot box but the decision was reversed by Court order. What confuses me is how it's possible to start issuing licenses immediately. Wouldnt it mean everything is back to square one? That the elected state officials would either pass a law legalizing it or stand their ground and resist it?

 

[ArmyMatt]

Army correct. I'm in the dark on the current events as I was on a month long trip to Greece. If my facts are correct that same sex marriage was defeated at the ballot box but the decision was reversed by Court order. What confuses me is how it's possible to start issuing licenses immediately. Wouldnt it mean everything is back to square one? That the elected state officials would either pass a law legalizing it or stand their ground and resist it?

the pro gay lobby probably has stacks just waiting

 

[InnerPhyre]

We in America are passive. If the majority actually does what they want to do, this wouldn't be happening. That is riot in front of the Courts, clash with police, throw Molotov cocktails and threaten the officials involved, the homosexual lobby would cower and crawl back under the rock they came from.

I'm not sure violence is a very good solution here.

 

[SeventhValley]

that's not democracy, that's oligarchy

It's Republicanism. Instead of democracy(tyranny of the majority). But people acted too late to try to add a legal definition of marriage to the constitution.

If Christian communities prove our model of family better through action in time we might be able to turn back the tide.

 

[SeventhValley]

...

 

[buzuxi02]

Sorry, Seventh but your version of Christianity is not mine. This is the Orthodox sub forum, my religion is not pacifist.

 

[tapi]

Suggesting violence as a solution to any moral problem is not at all compatible with the teachings of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ or the Orthodox faith.

One rarely if ever sees those who have advanced far in their spiritual struggle, take part of, or advocate violent attacks or threats with the goal of improving the morality of other people.

Here's Archmandrite Tryphon's, who's the abbot of the All Merciful Saviour Monastery (ROCOR), take on the riots in Georgia in May, where even some Orthodox clergy took part in the mob attack. I have to say I agree 100% with him.

He Who is Without Sin?

"We have all sinned and fall short of the Glory of God (Romans 3:23)." We Orthodox often miss the mark in understanding and ministering to this world. We fail the words of Christ, "to love one another as God has loved us", and forget we are charged by Our Lord to bring healing and wholeness to those struggling in this fallen world. In our righteous indignation we show contempt to those who live apart from biblical morality, forgetting that we were ourselves called out of this fallen world by Christ. We forget, in our contempt for the sins of others, that it was this very Christ Who asked those in the crowd who were without sin to cast the first stone.

The recent attack on a homosexual rights demonstration in the country of Georgia is an example, to my mind, of the ultimate failure in reaching out with the saving message of the Gospel. According to news reports, Orthodox priests were at the front of a mob attack on demonstrators for gay civil rights, which ultimately led to physical violence and the breaking of the windows of buses that had delivered the demonstrators to the city center. How Orthodox clergy, representing the Church founded by the Prince of Peace, Jesus Christ, would stoop to lend support to a mob of demonstrators is beyond my comprehension.

All of us have failed to fulfill the Commandments of God, and we are all deserving of being squashed like worms. But Jeremiah says, “Through the Lord’s mercies we are not consumed, because His compassion's fail not. They are new every morning; great is Your FAITHFULNESS” (Lam 3:22,23).

God never washes His hands of us. We may disappoint Him every day, but His love is without measure, and He responds with His saving Grace and Mercy. The Church, as the hospital of the soul, is the very institution founded by Our Lord to bring wholeness and healing to everyone. It is the lie of Satan that some, such as these homosexuals, are deserving of nothing but our contempt and violence. But it is Christ Who has called us to compassion for those who are stuck in sin, and Who offers, through the Church, the saving, transformational healing that can turn hearts around, and turn sinners into saints.

When priests of Christ's Church turn from the Gospel of wholeness and healing, and act in such contemptuousness to the Gospel message of love, forgiveness, and redemption, those who are caught up in a sinful life will feel nothing but hopelessness, and the message of the Church will have been hidden from them.

Countries become grounded in the moral and spiritual principles of the Church not by political confrontation led by priests, but by the transformational change that takes place when clergy lead their people into a personal relationship with the very Christ Who changes hearts, and saves us. It is not political extremism that preserves nations from immorality and sin, but the people themselves, who, having put on Christ, transform the society from within. As Saint Seraphim of Sarov said, when we acquire the Holy Spirit, a thousand around us will be saved.

Love in Christ,
Abbot Tryphon

http://www.ancientfaith.com/podcasts/morningoffering/he_who_is_without_sin

 

[kellhus]

Suggesting violence as a solution to any moral problem is not compatible at all with the teachings of our Lord and saviour Jesus Christ or the Orthodox faith. Here's Archmandrite Tryphon's, who's the abbot of the All Merciful Saviour Monastery (ROCOR), take on the recent riots in Georgia, where even some Orthodox clergy took part in the mob attack. I have to say I agree 100% with him. "The recent attack on a homosexual rite demonstration is an example of the ultimate failure in reaching out the saving message of the Gospel" http://www.ancientfaith.com/podcasts/morningoffering/he_who_is_without_sin

Wait, when did Abbot Tryphon become Archimandrite? It's very definitely a good thing, but I must have missed the news of that elevation. Morning Offering is a great podcast.