$15 dollars an hour for the minimum wage?

[Billnew]

Fast food workers want national minimum wage to be increased to $15 an hour.

Minimum wage job-the worker with only basic high school education or less, no specialty training, no job experience. Basically the equivalent to a high school student no matter what age.
Adult:
$15 an hour, 40 hours a week, 52 weeks a year=$31,200
$15 an hour, 30 hours a week(to avoid insurance) 52 weeks=$23,400
underage:
$15/hour, 20 hours a week, 52 weeks a year=$15,600

This is the lowest pay an individual should be paid? No education, no experience, no training, no demonstrated work ethic?

Now when the minimum wage goes up, the jobs swollowed up won't usually increase their pay, so everyone becomes minimum wage employees. Few if any above minimum wage will increase, so minimum wage drops everyone on the ladder down towards minimum wage.

Nothing happens in a vaccum, so increased costs per employee means higher costs in the finished product. Some decrease in the pay, of higher ups, might occur but they aren't going to take much of a cut.

So lets look at the increase for a 10 employee store.
7.25/hr, 40 hrs-52 weeks=$15,080, annual wage budget-$150,800
15/hr as above=$31,200, annual wage budget=$312,000
no increase in profit or change in product, increased cost is $161,200


Can't people see the possibility for a huge cut in jobs? Above instance, the budget would allow for 5 employees to continue and that would still add costs, so probably 4 full time employees and 1 part time would be left after the cuts.

--Obamacare will add costs to employ also but lets stay with minimum wage. Feel free to start a thread on costs of Obamacare to employ.--

I saw this:
Majority of Americans want minimum wage to be increased, poll finds - The Washington Post

"O" wants $10.10, not doubling the minimum wage, but still a sizable increase.
annual wages=21008.
(7x21008=147,056)
So in the example above, 7 employees could remain, 3 would have to go.

 

[Billnew]

Congress Has Already Raised the Minimum Wage Above $10

Many inexperienced and entry-level workers do not produce $12.71 per hour in value for their employers. They gain not just their paychecks from working but also valuable experience that leads to higher paying jobs and career advancement. Two-thirds of minimum wage workers earn raises within a year.
Entry-level jobs pay off in the long run for many workers. But if Congress adds a minimum-wage hike to the Obamacare mandate, many employees will never get that chance.

***Note-I quote the article for the specific paragraphs, I do not want to discuss Obamacare in this thread.

Minimum wage is meant for employees with no work ethic, work history, or education, it is not meant to live on nor should it be. If you show up and do the job properly you should get a raise or you should seek a better job.
Why? Because better experience, work ethic, education means your worth more then the rest of the minimum wagers.

 

[stamperben]

Minimum wage is meant for employees with no work ethic, work history, or education, it is not meant to live on nor should it be. If you show up and do the job properly you should get a raise or you should seek a better job.
Why? Because better experience, work ethic, education means your worth more then the rest of the minimum wagers.

Ha! Tell that to the thousands of Walmart workers, those very folks who need to have their employers wage subsidized by our tax dollars in the form of SNAP, housing help, and WIC.

 

[Standing_Ultraviolet]

My main concern would be less about jobs not increasing their pay higher up on the scale, and more about the possibility of inflation. People who get paid minimum wage are often in poverty despite working 40 hours a week, but you have to be careful with requiring such a drastic increase in pay, because it may (and probably will) just end with a subsequent rise in pricing, a rise in pay for higher placed positions, and no meaningful change. It's not that I don't think it would be good or that someone who works in fast food doesn't deserve more for what they do. I've been there, and it's a lot harder than my current job, where I get paid quite a bit more. It's just that I have very serious doubts about this actually working.

 

[1Sam15]

This is the lowest pay an individual should be paid? No education, no experience, no training, no demonstrated work ethic?

Except more and more of our jobs in the US are becoming that type of job.

Remember we shipped all the manufacturing and skilled jobs offshore leaving almost nothing but "service" jobs.

Now when the minimum wage goes up, the jobs swollowed up won't usually increase their pay, so everyone becomes minimum wage employees. Few if any above minimum wage will increase, so minimum wage drops everyone on the ladder down towards minimum wage.

Well, if there was actual INCREASE across the board in middle-income salaries for those of us with all this experience and work ethic of which you speak then I'd be scared.

But I work for a company that had a HUGE increase in stock price this past year and I got an above average annual rating. You know what I got in way of a raise? 1.6%.

When the kind of job I have is drying up in the US leaving only minimum wage jobs I'm wondering how long it will be before I'M on the minimum wage track again. And at that time I'll be glad I paid a few extra bucks for a Big Mac if when I wind up there on the other side of the counter I'm not living on public aid because my job doesn't pay enough.

Nothing happens in a vaccum, so increased costs per employee means higher costs in the finished product. Some decrease in the pay, of higher ups, might occur but they aren't going to take much of a cut.

Interestingly this time of year many megacorporations are partaking of massive stock buy backs which helps to increase the overall stock price and leads to big juicy bonuses for the CEO and executive suite!

But, please, let's focus on the people barely able to feed themselves and still work like dogs.

Can't people see the possibility for a huge cut in jobs?

Ummm, not to be telling you anything you don't already know, but while the minimum wage has stagnated these last couple decades (actually dropped in terms of real dollars since the 70's), there has been a wide range of times when jobs were lost in large numbers.

Doesn't seem to really help much either way.

--Obamacare will add costs to employ also but lets stay with minimum wage. Feel free to start a thread on costs of Obamacare to employ.--

Yeah, we can spend all day figuring out even MORE ways to make sure lots of American stay in poverty and unable to afford food and medical care. Let's stick with just keeping them in poverty!

OR we as Americans could...ummmmm....pay a bit more for our tube socks? Naaah, that's ridiculous! We love our money! I got mine. Who cares about you?

 

[Billnew]

Ha! Tell that to the thousands of Walmart workers, those very folks who need to have their employers wage subsidized by our tax dollars in the form of SNAP, housing help, and WIC.

My local Walmart pays over $10/hr, I don't doubt some stores exploit their employees. Like I said, if you have a good work ethic and history, if you make only minimum, you need to find another job.

My main concern would be less about jobs not increasing their pay higher up on the scale, and more about the possibility of inflation. People who get paid minimum wage are often in poverty despite working 40 hours a week, but you have to be careful with requiring such a drastic increase in pay, because it may (and probably will) just end with a subsequent rise in pricing, a rise in pay for higher placed positions, and no meaningful change. It's not that I don't think it would be good or that someone who works in fast food doesn't deserve more for what they do. I've been there, and it's a lot harder than my current job, where I get paid quite a bit more. It's just that I have very serious doubts about this actually working.

I agree the 15 would be extreme and cause drastic ripples in the economy.
I am less concerned with $10.10, but it will increase costs at a time when we still have alot of people still not working.

You get paid more for education or experience, usually the lower pay jobs are more physical or mentally stressful.

I also agree, I doubt much will change. If everyone makes $10/hr then you will still be minimum wage. While you bring in more money, but costs will rise also, so only a gain for the time it takes everything to adjust. I bet this would happen no matter what minimum wage is.
Even if 100/hr I bet the buying power won't be much different after the market adjusts.

Instead of increasing the pay for the lowest, why not encourage people to invest in themselves and get an education or establish a work ethic? Much more valuble in the long run.

 

[kermit]

While I'm not sure that $15/hr makes sense for a national minimum wage I find the objections to a living wage odd. Nearly all working people receive enough money to live. For many, part of that money comes from taxpayers. So if a person need, for argument sake. $10/hr to live in an area and the minimum wage is $7.25 that means that they recieve $2.75/hr from taxpayers. The question then becomes why are taxpayers subsidizing businesses in this way?

The right had a huge problem with TARP and the auto bailout, but seems perfectly fine with tremendous and ongoing payroll subsidies going to businesses that employee minimimum wage earners, some of which are highly profitable.

 

[stamperben]

My local Walmart pays over $10/hr, I don't doubt some stores exploit their employees. Like I said, if you have a good work ethic and history, if you make only minimum, you need to find another job.

As has been said here, THERE ARE NO OTHER JOBS. Sorry to shout, but that is fact.

I agree the 15 would be extreme and cause drastic ripples in the economy.
I am less concerned with $10.10, but it will increase costs at a time when we still have alot of people still not working.

You get paid more for education or experience, usually the lower pay jobs are more physical or mentally stressful.

I also agree, I doubt much will change. If everyone makes $10/hr then you will still be minimum wage. While you bring in more money, but costs will rise also, so only a gain for the time it takes everything to adjust. I bet this would happen no matter what minimum wage is.
Even if 100/hr I bet the buying power won't be much different after the market adjusts.

Instead of increasing the pay for the lowest, why not encourage people to invest in themselves and get an education or establish a work ethic? Much more valuble in the long run.

Okay then, even if there were these other jobs to attain to, tell us how a single mother (those I know who are working Walmart) is to invest herself in education? Shouldn't there be help for her? In a perfect world that cared about the raising value of a worker there would be. But there isn't, so she does the bast she can, and that's turned out to be a career at the box store.

 

[keith99]

I'm going to make a sort of contrarian argument.

If many employees do not produce $12.71 then a lot do not produce $15.00.

So why would employers hire at that cost? The only thing I can think of is as an investment, that the employer expects to gain en employee who in the future will make them money.

The good side is employers will be more concerned with developing employees who are skilled and productive.

The downside ironically is to those that it seems are the ones that those pushing minimum wage increases seek to help. Those may get hired, but after a short bit of training and no improvement they will be fired.

A high minimum wage means companies cannot afford to keep an employee who stays unskilled.

 

[conamer]

Go to North Dakota where they pay $18 an hour at Mickey Ds because there is wealth being created and the market demand is there.

 

[Standing_Ultraviolet]

My local Walmart pays over $10/hr, I don't doubt some stores exploit their employees. Like I said, if you have a good work ethic and history, if you make only minimum, you need to find another job.

I kind of wonder if that might be because you live in an area with a higher cost of living. Wal-Mart pay varies quite a bit, but it's not uncommon to see $8 an hour or less.

You get paid more for education or experience, usually the lower pay jobs are more physical or mentally stressful.

I guess maybe the question is whether it should be like that. The education or experience probably isn't really what you're being paid for. It's more the fact that your skill set isn't held by as many people, and so you're able to negotiate for fairer treatment because the company can't go behind your back and hire someone who's willing to work for less.

A universal right to unionize would probably be a better solution than a blanket increase in minimum wage, though. That allows individuals the power to negotiate when they don't have specialized skills. You have to keep any worker's union from being exploitative (because businesses aren't the only organizations who can do that; anyone can if they have real power), but it is a more market-based solution, and while I'm not a laissez faire capitalist by any stretch, evening out the playing field and letting the market settle itself is probably the best option when it's possible.

Instead of increasing the pay for the lowest, why not encourage people to invest in themselves and get an education or establish a work ethic? Much more valuble in the long run.

I guess the main problem is that education isn't always practical or possible and establishing a work ethic isn't always enough. Case in point, I was actually educated when I worked in fast food (I worked there because I was spending a semester at home between undergrad and graduate school, and the economy where I live is really awful), and I struggled to do that, partially because it was difficult and partially because I have some issues with mental functioning that are outside of my control. Life is unfair sometimes, unfortunately.

 

[Billnew]

Except more and more of our jobs in the US are becoming that type of job.

Remember we shipped all the manufacturing and skilled jobs offshore leaving almost nothing but "service" jobs.



Well, if there was actual INCREASE across the board in middle-income salaries for those of us with all this experience and work ethic of which you speak then I'd be scared.

But I work for a company that had a HUGE increase in stock price this past year and I got an above average annual rating. You know what I got in way of a raise? 1.6%.

When the kind of job I have is drying up in the US leaving only minimum wage jobs I'm wondering how long it will be before I'M on the minimum wage track again. And at that time I'll be glad I paid a few extra bucks for a Big Mac if when I wind up there on the other side of the counter I'm not living on public aid because my job doesn't pay enough.



Interestingly this time of year many megacorporations are partaking of massive stock buy backs which helps to increase the overall stock price and leads to big juicy bonuses for the CEO and executive suite!

But, please, let's focus on the people barely able to feed themselves and still work like dogs.



Ummm, not to be telling you anything you don't already know, but while the minimum wage has stagnated these last couple decades (actually dropped in terms of real dollars since the 70's), there has been a wide range of times when jobs were lost in large numbers.

Doesn't seem to really help much either way.



Yeah, we can spend all day figuring out even MORE ways to make sure lots of American stay in poverty and unable to afford food and medical care. Let's stick with just keeping them in poverty!

OR we as Americans could...ummmmm....pay a bit more for our tube socks? Naaah, that's ridiculous! We love our money! I got mine. Who cares about you?

1-2. Loss of jobs overseas: no argument here. Much cheaper to pay .25 cents hour then ship it back to the states then to pay all the requirements here. And Americans buy it.
3-We haven't went under, but we are barely treading water.

4-Investors profit from stock swings, Management are paid bonuses based on stock prices(occasionally employees too, but not very often) wages are paid from business profits.

5-1.6% I think that is about what COLA is. Thats what my pay increase will be, and its the first raise in 3 yrs. No COLA preivious 3 yrs.

Job cuts: There has been job loses, but when you increase costs to employ drastically in multiple areas you will see it happen again.

 

[Billnew]

As has been said here, THERE ARE NO OTHER JOBS. Sorry to shout, but that is fact.


Okay then, even if there were these other jobs to attain to, tell us how a single mother (those I know who are working Walmart) is to invest herself in education? Shouldn't there be help for her? In a perfect world that cared about the raising value of a worker there would be. But there isn't, so she does the bast she can, and that's turned out to be a career at the box store.

I would say my local paper disagrees with your shout. There might be no higher paying jobs, but there are minimum wage jobs at least in my area.
Some place like Detroit probably won't have any jobs. But people might need to relocate.

Weird, when I went to college, women and minorities had alot of financial aid for school. Maybe that changed.
I got a student loan, no aid for a military veteran other then military benefits(which I never enrolled, I was an idiot).

Go to North Dakota where they pay $18 an hour at Mickey Ds because there is wealth being created and the market demand is there.

Would that be in the oil production area?

I kind of wonder if that might be because you live in an area with a higher cost of living. Wal-Mart pay varies quite a bit, but it's not uncommon to see $8 an hour or less.



I guess maybe the question is whether it should be like that. The education or experience probably isn't really what you're being paid for. It's more the fact that your skill set isn't held by as many people, and so you're able to negotiate for fairer treatment because the company can't go behind your back and hire someone who's willing to work for less.

A universal right to unionize would probably be a better solution than a blanket increase in minimum wage, though. That allows individuals the power to negotiate when they don't have specialized skills. You have to keep any worker's union from being exploitative (because businesses aren't the only organizations who can do that; anyone can if they have real power), but it is a more market-based solution, and while I'm not a laissez faire capitalist by any stretch, evening out the playing field and letting the market settle itself is probably the best option when it's possible.



I guess the main problem is that education isn't always practical or possible and establishing a work ethic isn't always enough. Case in point, I was actually educated when I worked in fast food (I worked there because I was spending a semester at home between undergrad and graduate school, and the economy where I live is really awful), and I struggled to do that, partially because it was difficult and partially because I have some issues with mental functioning that are outside of my control. Life is unfair sometimes, unfortunately.

Might be, might be lower (local)unemployment also, less people fighting for a job, means you pay more to get the good ones.

2.probably better description of the situation.

3. I fully support freedom to unionize, but I also support freedom of choice.
not sure unions would help with high unemployment areas. Hard to get wage increases when theres a dozen people that will work that one job for less then you make at the time.

Unions are good in some instances, but Unions can be worthless or even counter-productive in other situations. Unreasonable Union demands can cost jobs or close a business.

The best situation is Management and unions working together to make the company strong. If either side is more concerned with their power the company will not be strong.

The key to any buisiness is profit after the product;
Profit is what is left after you pay:
materials, overhead(building, utilities, IT, etc), wages, and so on.
ie the total money recieved selling the product minus above is profit.

 

[AvilaSurfer]

Look, this whole 15/hr thing is a joke. If you raise the minimum wage to 15, the price of everything goes up. Do people not understand that? Do people think companies will just absorb that? So the price of everything goes up, and the guy who just got the raise to 15 still can't afford what he couldn't afford last week! This is not rocket surgery.

 

[stamperben]

I would say my local paper disagrees with your shout. There might be no higher paying jobs, but there are minimum wage jobs at least in my area.
Some place like Detroit probably won't have any jobs. But people might need to relocate.

Weird, when I went to college, women and minorities had alot of financial aid for school. Maybe that changed.
I got a student loan, no aid for a military veteran other then military benefits(which I never enrolled, I was an idiot).

Oh, great. From one minimum wage job to another. That's upward mobility in whose definition?

Your profile says you're 48. That means that yes, a lot has changed in the intervening years.

 

[kermit]

Look, this whole 15/hr thing is a joke. If you raise the minimum wage to 15, the price of everything goes up. Do people not understand that? Do people think companies will just absorb that? So the price of everything goes up, and the guy who just got the raise to 15 still can't afford what he couldn't afford last week! This is not rocket surgery.

The choice is either you pay a bit more for a product or service (much less than you'd probably expect) or you pay it in taxes. Personally, I prefer to pay slightly more for products or services because that gives me a choice.

Basically, you and other are arguing to maintain the high cost of low prices. Employers that employ large numbers of minimum wage workers have figure out how to game the system to keep their prices low by having the wages of their employees subsidized by taxpayers. Not only does this system cost taxpayers huge sums of money, it's drives small business out of business. How anyone can support the continuation of this system is beyond comprehension.

 

[1Sam15]

4-Investors profit from stock swings, Management are paid bonuses based on stock prices(occasionally employees too, but not very often) wages are paid from business profits.

CEO's can initiate stock buy-backs which will inflate the price of the stock and in many cases CEO bonuses are pegged to stock price. So it's a nice game that benefits no one but the folks who can decide to play bookkeeping games.

5-1.6% I think that is about what COLA is.

So someone who rates better than average in a company that has nearly doubled it's stock price in the last year should just expect a COLA?

Funny but a few years back we were all asked to take a 5% pay cut for a year as the company went through a rough patch.

Funny how it only works out ONE WAY for the worker.

Thats what my pay increase will be, and its the first raise in 3 yrs. No COLA preivious 3 yrs.

Many years we don't get COLA's here. So, well, there's that.

Job cuts: There has been job loses, but when you increase costs to employ drastically in multiple areas you will see it happen again.

We see job cuts when the economy is doing well but the C-suite decides they need to decrease OPEX to boost profits.

Minimum wage now buys less in terms of real buying power than it did in the mid 1970's. I'd say nearly 40 years of dropping value is enough wouldn't you?

How many decades would you work as your pay got less and less with each year?

You want to fix this without hurting the organization? Take a bit off the top and put it down to the bottom.

Instead of investing their money in pumping the stock price by a buy-back so the C-Suite can get a bigger bonus on top of million dollar salaries, instead put that money into salaries which will allow the workers to buy more stuff and ORGANICALLY grow REAL profits for the company.

 

[1Sam15]

Your profile says you're 48. That means that yes, a lot has changed in the intervening years.

I just hit the mid-century mark. And like many of my friends I'm sure some day I'll be farmed out in my mid-50's. Of course no one is going to hire someone who is mid-50's for the salary I'm pulling down. In fact no one will likely hire me at all. Because I'll be in my mid-50's.

So it's back to minimum wage.

And those folks who are pushing 50 hard may very well meet this very end as well.

Let's hope that when that awful day comes SOMEONE stood up for a better standard of living in this rich, rich country.

 

[Rubiks]

Why stop there? Lets set the minimum wage to $100 an hour. We'll all be filthy rich!

/sarcasm

 

[Belk]

Why stop there? Lets set the minimum wage to $100 an hour. We'll all be filthy rich!

/sarcasm

Why do you feel this is somehow a valid argument against raising the minimum wage? Perhaps we could find a comfortable middle ground between the $4000 a week you suggest and the $290 a week they earn now?