owh... so I should say sorry to you.
but, I do not intend to take back my questions, if you bother to answer it, Woodrow..
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CF has always been a site that welcomes people from different backgrounds and beliefs to participate in discussion and even debate. That is the nature of its ministry. In view of recent events emotions are running very high. We need to remind people of some basic principles in debating on this site. We need to be civil when we express differences in opinion. No personal attacks. Avoid you, your statements. Don't characterize an entire political party with comparisons to Fascism or Communism or other extreme movements that committed atrocities. CF is not the place for broad brush or blanket statements about groups and political parties. Put the broad brushes and blankets away when you come to CF, better yet, put them in the incinerator. Debate had no place for them. We need to remember that people that commit acts of violence represent themselves or a small extreme faction.
No new Mosques?
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owh... so I should say sorry to you.but, I do not intend to take back my questions, if you bother to answer it, Woodrow..
Absolutely!
except Islam, it has.
AGREE, there are evil people in all religions...
BUT, please note that;
its true, there are evil people in Christianity, but you will never find any command for Christians to become "evil people" in its scripture. even I can say that its scripture had written about the weed among the wheat.
A
N
D
its true, there are evil people in Islam, but I assured you that you can find its command in its scripture. and people whom "evil people" in human eyes are Allah's helper in its religion.
I can not tell, whether you chose to ignore it, or you missed it, or you chose not to accept it.
just like the apostasy killing, I haven't heard your testimony according to that example that you have demanded earlier.
in your sight, brother...
do any human in this world have right to kill other human being, while he himself can not even turn his own hair from white into black and otherwise?
please don't mind, I would reply this matter above tomorrow
I have read the first line in your argument I quoted above, (blind question)...
I wonder, what kind of nation that called as Christian Nation... how that Nation rule its people... for Christ never give any instruction how to rule Nation...But, I do know and aware about Islamist Nation which rule with Sharia.
to be continued
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Ishraqiyun
Fanning the Divine Spark
Only no one can seem to find the supposed verses from the Quran. Instead they keep posting verses that authorized the use of force against other tribes in the region that had already initiated war against the Islamic communities. They apply to very specific "infidels". Often critiques take those authorizations and pretend that they imply to everyone on the face of the planet who isn't Muslim which simply isn't a logical deduction. It may sound somewhat plausible when all you see are the out of context quotes but you read a little more of the surrounding context it doesn't any more.Absolutely!
except Islam, it has.
The quotes provided are very much in the category of those one might find in the Old Testament but at least the Quranic ones don't demand all out genocide and the killing women and children who are specifically called protected in the hadith as well. It would be like a person taking one of those verses in the Torah about a battle and then saying they are a call to kill everyone on the face of the planet who isn't Jewish. You can find some shady things that shock modern sensibilities in both books but a universal call to murder anyone who isn't a member of the said religions isn't one of those things.
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In order to be violent, a Christian must ignore most of Jesus.
In order to be nonviolent, a Muslim must ignore most of Muhammad.
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smaneck
Baha'i
LOL. Have we ever heard of the Inquisition?
And please, don't hand me the No True Scotsman argument.
If Christians no longer engage in this behavior it is because the Enlightenment (an explicitly anti-Christian movement) made the West considerably less religious.
The English in this article is so bad it is incomprehensible.
He does use fighting words, I'll grant you that.
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smaneck
Baha'i
Muhammad's 'hordes' were not advancing when they were attacked. It was a small party that was just outside of Medina checking the perimeter when they were ambushed.
So you take from al-Bukhari whatever makes Islam look bad and discount whatever explains their actions. Figures.
Fact of the matter is (and Woodrow will disagree with me here) all the ahadith were compiled centuries after Muhammad and none of them are all that reliable.
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WoodrowX2
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I strongly disagree that the Qur'an commands violence.
However I have found that those who desire to find commands for violence in any Scripture, will find commands for violence in those scriptures.
If a person desires to find commands for violence in the NT they will find them.
If a person desires to find commands for violence in the Qur'an they will find them.
If a person desires to find commands of violence in the Torah, they will find them
It is called selective reading out of context. We seem to have the ability to read into another person's scripture, whatever we desire to read into it.
In today's world you can go to a hate site against any or all religions and find what somebody see as commands for violence.
Sadly we humans have the ability to seperate themselves and see that it applies to THEM not to US
We say: "Your Religion teaches violence, you are misunderstanding mine."
Some Examples:
Commands for Violence in Judaism
Genesis
Because God liked Abel's animal sacrifice more than Cain's vegetables, Cain kills his brother Abel in a fit of religious jealousy. 4:8
"I will destroy ... both man and beast."
God is angry. He decides to destroy all humans, beasts, creeping things, fowls, and "all flesh wherein there is breath of life." He plans to drown them all. 6:7, 17
"Every living substance that I have made will I destroy."
God repeats his intention to kill "every living substance ... from off the face of the earth." But why does God kill all the innocent animals? What had they done to deserve his wrath? It seems God never gets his fill of tormenting animals. 7:4
"All flesh died that moved upon the earth."
God drowns everything that breathes air. From newborn babies to koala bears -- all creatures great and small, the Lord God drowned them all. 7:21-23
God sends a plague on the Pharaoh and his household because the Pharaoh believed Abram's lie. 12:17
God tells Abram to kill some animals for him. The needless slaughter makes God feel better. 15:9-10
Hagar conceives, making Sarai jealous. Abram tells Sarai to do to Hagar whatever she wants. "And when Sarai dealt hardly with her, she fled." 16:6
"I will not destroy it for ten's sake."
I guess God couldn't find even ten good Sodomites because he decides to kill them all in Genesis 19. Too bad Abraham didn't ask God about the children. Why not save them? If Abraham could find 10 good children, toddlers, infants, or babies, would God spare the city? Apparently not. God doesn't give a damn about children. 18:32
Lot refuses to give up his angels to the perverted mob, offering his two "virgin daughters" instead. He tells the bunch of angel rapers to "do unto them [his daughters] as is good in your eyes." This is the same man that is called "just" and "righteous" in 2 Peter 2:7-8. 19:7-8
God kills everyone (men, women, children, infants, newborns) in Sodom and Gomorrah by raining "fire and brimstone from the Lord out of heaven." Well, almost everyone -- he spares the "just and righteous" Lot and his family. 19:24
Lot's nameless wife looks back, and God turns her into a pillar of salt. 19:26
God gets angry with king Abimelech, though the king hasn't even touched Sarah. He says to the king, "Behold, thou art but a dead man," and threatens to kill him and all of his people. To compensate for the crime he never committed, Abimelech gives Abraham sheep, oxen, slaves, silver, and land. Finally, after Abraham "prayed unto God," God lifts his punishment to Abimelech, "for the Lord had fast closed up all the wombs of the house of Abimelech, because of Sarah." 20:3-18
Sarah, after giving birth to Isaac, gets angry again at Hagar (see 16:5-6) and tells Abraham to 'cast out this bondwoman and her son." God commands Abraham to "hearken unto her voice." So Abraham abandons Hagar and Ishmael, casting them out into the wilderness to die. 21:10-14
God orders Abraham to kill Isaac as a burnt offering. Abraham shows his love for God by his willingness to murder his son. But finally, just before Isaac's throat is slit, God provides a goat to kill instead. 22:2-13
Abraham shows his willingness to kill his son for God. Only an evil God would ask a father to do that; only a bad father would be willing to do it. 22:10
"Because thou hast done this thing, and hast not withheld thy son, thine only son."
Why did God love Abraham so much? Because he was willing to murder his son for him. (Greater evil hath no man than this, that he is willing to kill his own son for God.) 22:16
Dinah, the daughter of Jacob, is "defiled" by a man who seems to love her dearly. Her brothers trick all of the men of the town and kill them (after first having them all circumcised), and then take their wives and children captive. 34:1-31
"The terror of God was upon the cities that were round about them." 35:5
"And Er, Judah's firstborn, was wicked in the sight of the Lord; and the Lord slew him." What did Er do to elicit God's wrath? The Bible doesn't say. Maybe he picked up some sticks on Saturday. 38:7
After God killed Er, Judah tells Onan to "go in unto they brother's wife." But "Onan knew that the seed should not be his; and ... when he went in unto his brother's wife ... he spilled it on the ground.... And the thing which he did displeased the Lord; wherefore he slew him also." This lovely Bible story is seldom read in Sunday School, but it is the basis of many Christian doctrines, including the condemnation of both masturbation and birth control. 38:8-10
After Judah pays Tamar for her services, he is told that she "played the harlot" and "is with child by whoredom." When Judah hears this, he says, "Bring her forth, and let her be burnt." 38:24
Joseph interprets the baker's dream. He says that the pharaoh will cut off the baker's head, and hang his headless body on a tree for the birds to eat. 40:19
God brought a seven year, "very grievous" famine on the whole earth for no apparent reason (except maybe to make Joseph wealthy). 41:25-32, 54
Commands for Violence in Christianity
Matthew
Those who bear bad fruit will be cut down and burned "with unquenchable fire." 3:10, 12
Jesus strongly approves of the law and the prophets. He hasn't the slightest objection to the cruelties of the Old Testament. 5:17
Jesus recommends that to avoid sin we cut off our hands and pluck out our eyes. This advice is given immediately after he says that anyone who looks with lust at any women commits adultery. 5:29-30
Jesus says that most people will go to hell. 7:13-14
Those who fail to bear "good fruit" will be "hewn down, and cast into the fire." 7:19
"The children of the kingdom [the Jews] shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth." 8:12
Jesus tells a man who had just lost his father: "Let the dead bury the dead." 8:21
Jesus sends some devils into a herd of pigs, causing them to run off a cliff and drown in the waters below. 8:32
Cities that neither "receive" the disciples nor "hear" their words will be destroyed by God. It will be worse for them than for Sodom and Gomorrah. And you know what God supposedly did to those poor folks (see Gen 19:24). 10:14-15
Families will be torn apart because of Jesus (this is one of the few "prophecies" in the Bible that has actually come true). "Brother shall deliver up the brother to death, and the father the child: and the children shall rise up against their parents, and cause them to be put to death." 10:21
Jesus says that we should fear God who is willing and "able to destroy both soul and body in hell." 10:28
Jesus says that he has come to destroy families by making family members hate each other. He has "come not to send peace, but a sword." 10:34-36
Jesus condemns entire cities to dreadful deaths and to the eternal torment of hell because they didn't care for his preaching. 11:20-24
Jesus will send his angels to gather up "all that offend" and they "shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth." 13:41-42, 50
Jesus is criticized by the Pharisees for not washing his hands before eating. He defends himself by attacking them for not killing disobedient children according to the commandment: "He that curseth father or mother, let him die the death." (See Ex 21:15, Lev 20:9, Dt 21:18-21) So, does Jesus think that children who curse their parents should be killed? It sure sounds like it. 15:4-7
"Every plant, which my heavenly Father hath not planted, shall be rooted up." 15:13
Jesus advises his followers to mutilate themselves by cutting off their hands and plucking out their eyes. He says it's better to be "maimed" than to suffer "everlasting fire." 18:8-9
In the parable of the unforgiving servant, the king threatens to enslave a man and his entire family to pay for a debt. This practice, which was common at the time, seems not to have bothered Jesus very much. The parable ends with this: "So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you." If you are cruel to others, God will be cruel to you. 18:23-35
"And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors." 18:34
God is like a rich man who owns a vineyard and rents it to poor farmers. When he sends servants to collect the rent, the tenants beat or kill them. So he sent his son to collect the rent, and they kill him too. Then the owner comes and kills the farmers and rents the vineyard to others. 21:33-41
"Whosoever shall fall on this stone shall be broken: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder." Whoever falls on "this stone" (Jesus) will be broken, and whomever the stone falls on will be ground into powder. 21:44
In the parable of the marriage feast, the king sends his servants to gather everyone they can find, both bad and good, to come to the wedding feast. One guest didn't have on his wedding garment, so the king tied him up and "cast him into the outer darkness" where "there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth." 22:1-14
The end of the world will be signaled by wars, famines, disease, and earthquakes (6-7). And that's just "the beginning of sorrows" (8). Next believers will be hated and killed by unbelievers (9), believers will hate and betray each other (10), false prophets will fool people (11), iniquity will abound and love wax cold (12). But hey, if you make through all that, you'll be saved (13).
Commands for violence in Islam
Don't bother warning the disbelievers. Allah has made it impossible for them to believe so that he can torture them forever after they die. 2:6-7
Allah has sickened the hearts of disbelievers and increased their disease. He is a spiritual anti-doctor. 2:10
If you try to compose a surah that is better than those in the Quran, and then fail, Allah will burn you forever if you in the fire that he has prepared for disbelievers, whose fuel is men and stones. 2:24
Allah will shed human blood while angels praise him in heaven. (The angels question why Allah has to kill people; Allah says they'd understand if they knew everything like he does.) 2:30
They who disbelieve, and deny Our revelations, such are rightful Peoples of the Fire. They will abide therein." 2:39
There will come a day when Allah will refuse all prayers and help no one. 2:48
Allah brags about drowning the Egyptian army. 2:50
"Whosoever hath done evil and his sin surroundeth him; such are rightful owners of the Fire." 2:81
Christians and Jews (who believe in only part of the Scripture), will suffer in this life and go to hell in the next. 2:85
"They have incurred anger upon anger. For disbelievers is a shameful doom." 90
"For disbelievers is a painful doom." 2:104
Allah will make disbelievers' lives miserable in this world and torture them forever after they die. 2:114
"And thou wilt not be asked about the owners of hell-fire." (They are the non-muslims.) 2:119
Allah will leave the disbelievers alone for a while, but then he will compel them to the doom of Fire. 2:126
The doom of the disbelievers will not be lightened. 2:162
"On the day when they behold the doom and all their aims collapse with them ... Allah is severe punishment!" 2:165-6
They will not emerge from the Fire. 2:167
Those who hide the Scripture will have their bellies eaten with fire. Theirs will be a painful doom. 2:174
How constant are they in their strife to reach the Fire! 2:175
"Fight in the way of Allah." 2:190, 2:244
If someone murders your slave, then you get to kill one of his. If it was a male that was killed, you kill one of the killer's male slaves. If a female, you kill a female. Murder for murder. Slave for slave. It all works out swell with Allah's wondrous rules. (Oh, and if you don't follow them, you'll have the usual painful doom.) 2:178
"Fight in the way of Allah against those who fight against you." 2:190
Kill disbelievers wherever you find them. If they attack you, then kill them. Such is the reward of disbelievers. (But if they desist in their unbelief, then don't kill them.) 2:191-2
These all have something in common. they were gathered by people trying to find commands for violence. There are people that actually believe these are commands for violence.
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WoodrowX2
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Surprise, I agree here. Our disagreement will probably be limited to acceptance or non-acceptance of Sahih Bukhari..
Even with Bukhari although he compiled over 300,000 ahadith he only found 2-3,000 he considered to be Sahih.
Fraudulent, unproven, and unreliable Ahadith far out number those with High Authenticity and reliability.
I think we agree that the Ahadith are not commandments as some non-Muslims seem to believe.
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The inquisition is regarded as one of the darkest organizations to have contaminated the history of Christianity. Why? Because their actions were completely opposed to what we, Christians, believe in. On the contrary, people like Osama Bin Laden are considered heroes in the Islamic world. Likewise, Tamerlane, who killed 5% of the world population, is also admired by many Muslims, to the point that some name their sons after him. Have you ever heard of Tamerlane Tsarnaev?
The problem with you (here I am using the plural from of the word, once again) is that you confuse objectivity with aggression. I have quoted your sacred texts, and you said that I was writing obscenities (in a way, you are right, since the history of your prophet is a long chain of obscenities).
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Muhammad's hordes killed everyone around them. Nobody believes in the ludicrous idea that they conquered the Arabian peninsula by preaching. Are you going to tell me that they crossed the Mediterranean and conquered the Iberian peninsula because Spain was attacking them?
Everything in Islam is a lie. The problem is that some people believe in this lie. I am sure the ahadith are unreliable, but what matters is that lots of people find them reliable and act upon them.
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smaneck
Baha'i
You can't be serious. The Inquisition was authorized by the Pope who leads the bulk of Christians world wide. Osama Bin Laden, on the other hand leads a tiny group of terrorists rejected by the bulk of the Islamic world.
Yes, I have and I did wonder what kind of parents would give their kid that name. It might be popular in Central Asia but certainly not the rest of the Islamic world.
LOL. I've seen no evidence you (in the singular) know anything whatsoever about objectivity. I'm a professor. Unlike evangelicals I'm *required* to be objective.
You quoted no sacred text when you said the Black Stone represented a vagina. I have asked you numerous times to produce such a text if you speak the truth. Instead you came up with a vid by someone whose credentials you can't even produce.
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smaneck
Baha'i
You are good at changing the subject. We are talking about what happened to the leader of a tribe who authorized an attack on a handful of Muslims while they were in the vicinity of their own town. Has nothing to do with what happened to Spain, who Berbers and Arabs conquered from the Visigoths who had conquered it from the Romans who had conquered it from the Carthaginians, etc.
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WoodrowX2
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Yet, we in America supported bin Laden when he was fighting the Russians and we supplied him with Arms.
Oddly, there never has been sufficient evidence to indict him regarding 9/11.
SOURCE
Another odd twist
SOURCE
Yes, Bin Laden was viewed as a "Robin Hood type persona in parts of the world. In much the same way kids of my Generation admired "Jesse James" and "Billy the Kid" does that mean American kids of the 1930s-1940s were terrorists?
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All those verses that you cited aren't violent, but just. Jesus said that the tree is known by its fruits. There are extraordinary examples of charity and love in Christianity. Moreover, Jesus, our Lord and God, is the most loving and just being that has ever lived on this earth (or anywhere else). Now, let's look at Islam, what do you have to offer? Where is your Jesus? What example of love and abnegation can give us? Furthermore, where is your Mother Theresa? Where is your Pope Francis? Where is your Albert Schweitzer? Nowhere. Islam has never offered any example of unselfish love and divine charity. Finally, Islam has offered many examples of extreme violence and hatred. From Muhammad, a selfish and murderous warlord, to Osama Bin Laden, murderer of so many innocents. Collectively, Islam is a pit of hatred. Shia and Sunni have been killing each other for nearly 14 centuries, just to avenge the death of a single man. Anyone else would have stopped by now, but not the followers of Islam.
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If you hate your own country so much, why don't you move to the Middle East? I am sure you'd enjoy the peaceful and loving societies that thrive in Syria, Egypt, Somalia, Sudan, Iran, etc.
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Ishraqiyun
Fanning the Divine Spark
If you can't think of any saintly Islamic individuals who gave to the poor, stood up for the oppressed, fought to protect Christians from violent bigots, etc. then you obviously haven't researched the religion as well as you think you have. Check out Abd al Qadir Jilani for one example. Look up sufism and sufi chivalry or (forgive my spelling) javanmard.
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