The Evolution of Morality

[nuttypiglet]

Is there a certain irony in someone admitting that they don't know everything and then confirming it by being unable to spell Darwin.....?

A redundancy maybe...?

It was deliberate but you wouldn't get that

 

[nuttypiglet]

Scientific.

Sorry I can't answer that because there is no true scientific definition of life, so we cannot say when it becomes life.

 

[nuttypiglet]

So when does abiogenesis occur? in the womb, or after birth?

let me nudge you in the right direction. Where have you seen life not come from life?

 

[nuttypiglet]

The only ones claiming intelligence was poofed into existence are the creationists (Adam and Eve). Evolution does not poof anything into existence!

to design and create something hardly constitutes as 'poof' does it How Keep it together.

 

[Loudmouth]

I am a creationist that claims intelligence was created by God. I don't believe it was poofed into existence. Your claim then is false.

Then how did it happen? Explain it to me step by step.

 

[Oncedeceived]

To put it simply:

Looking at how the bible describes God; all loving, all knowing, loves everyone, has a plan for everyone, all powerful, has all knowledge, everything he commands is good, etc. etc. etc.

Then comparing that description, to the reality of the world:

-the immense suffering by millions including children who die in agony and the desperate prayers that go unanswered
-Letting man wallow on earth for a minimum of 100,000 before sending Jesus to be the savior
-Only sending Jesus to a remote part of civilization and not allowing the savior to have any exposure to most of the population
-christianity states those who do not believe as them, will experience eternal torment, yet only a limited few were exposed to the savior
-christians are allowed to dump their sins on someone else and be cleansed, even if they have done terrible deeds. Yet, the person who lived a loving caring life in another part of the world and was not exposed to Jesus and prays to a different God, is doomed.
-the NT is shoddy at best, when it comes to reliability. Ever wonder why matthew, mark and luke never mention Jesus was God? That would seem to be a pretty important item to include. Only John, which was written 70 years after Jesus lived and is considered the least reliable of the gospels, mentions Jesus is God.

I could go on and on, but I simply got to a point, where I could not reconcile the God as described in the bible, with all of the above and more, because I don't believe an all loving, all caring God, would allow the above to take place and I haven't even mentioned the stuff in the OT. This is why I am an atheist towards the christian God and agnostic towards a non-personal, universal deity.

If you can reconcile this, then have at it, I can't and I have heard all of the typical christian explanations of justifying all of the above and those explanations are all over the map (hence so many denominations of christianity) and don't hold water and are simply made up.

When looking at the realities of this world we tend to look at all the suffering and pain the natural disasters and horrific things people do to people and ask how God could ever allow such things as these in our world.

Now if we were God we would not allow such suffering and pain. We would not allow natural disasters that take life from ourselves and the animal life in the area. We would make the earth a place of beauty and lacking in any evil or terrible disease. We would make harmony among fellow mankind and everyone would be treated with love and respect. Oh what a world I know I would create. I would look at how far mankind has come from the barren first seeds of mankind to the dominion king of all the earth and see that man has scrambled and clawed his/her way to the top through great adversity and reached the highest mountain of the evolutionary realm and say he/she deserves so much for all they have gone through to reach this level. I would make a life free from diversity and shower this creature in love and kindness. Would you not do the same? Would not God?

Well God has created such a place. A reward for the terrible trials that we all go through here on earth. A place that will include beauty lacking evil or terrible disease. There will be harmony among all who live there. No more disease no more disasters and we will be showered in love and kindness. However, to get to this place and to appreciate such a place, we have to know what it is like to not have this freedom from disaster and terrible disease. We must know what evil really is and what love really is. We must know what choice is and what consequences are for those choices. We to be free willed and free minded harmonious individuals we must know what it is like to live without that harmony and the results that come with disharmony. IF not, how do we know love if not for hate. If not, how do we know goodness without evil? How do we learn if we have it all right now? Now if God wanted us to be able to know love we must know hate. IF we are to know kindness we must know what kindness is not. IF we know not love how can we show love to those who we would love. God wants us to know He loves us and HE would like us to return that love. How does He do that if love is all we have ever known. IF we have never known hate how could we really know love or what that means?

Now, what if we didn't have a choice to worship God? What if God just put us on this planet or even Heaven and supplied all we needed and would ever want but we had to worship and love Him. We couldn't make that choice and we would never know what choice was. I think of that as us being nothing more than pets.

So for us to know the different elements of being...to love, to hate, to be kind, to be mean, to have much, to have little to know what it is to reach self reliance and to know how to depend on someone are all unmeasurable necessities in the human being.

So now in our created world we want the created to know these things by experience which is how humans are designed. So we have to make available a way to experience love, kindness and all the in between. I would want them to know me and still keep the choice available. So if I were to create this universe I would want to give just enough evidence for those who choose to believe and a way for them to choose not to believe as well that I created them and wanted them to love me. I would want them to have a way to know there was a creator but not too much evidence as to force them to acknowledge me if they didn't want to. What better way than to have evolution be the way I create? They could choose between a natural world created by chance or by me by design. It would allow for choice, it would allow for evil and good, it would allow for tribulation and overcoming tribulation. It would allow for all those things to be experienced and the choice to decide to acknowledge and learn about me or to decided not to believe. A true choice. A true experience of opposites. Not only would it do that, it would make life exciting and worth learning more. It would keep us discovering and hopefully to discover the creator of it all.

So yes, I hate the evil in the world. But to know hate I also know what love is. I hate that children die from disease but man is overcoming disease through learning about the creation and by given that ability by God to learn and overcome. We can reach very low lows but HE allows us to reach the highest heights of our humanity. However, we could never know how high we can achieve if not for the lows. We could never know the greatness of God if not allowed to experience the opposites of everything He encompasses.

So, you may have heard this all before. You may have no desire to know a God such as this, but I am thankful that you have a true choice. I am thankful that there is a way to live by choice with Him. I don't know about hell. I don't know what torment it would be to know that the choice was mine but I let my own value to be placed upon God and to judge Him guilty without knowing the reasons and motivations that might have made it seem He didn't care. But you see that is my choice. So please don't ridicule me for my choice. Ultimately, I find reason in the world for God. I have reason behind my choices. They may not be sufficient for you. But that is the beauty of the system. Regardless of what you have chosen, I like you and I feel you are honest. So I am so glad I know that you are truly a nice person because I know the opposite too.

 

[Loudmouth]

Now you can claim that evolution is evident, however, you would have to show that natural selection could create intelligence from a non-intelligent process.

We also have DNA evidence demonstrating that humans evolved from a common ancestor with chimps.

That is not back by mountains of evidence and in fact has no evidence to support it.

Yes, it is.

 

[HitchSlap]

When looking at the realities of this world we tend to look at all the suffering and pain the natural disasters and horrific things people do to people and ask how God could ever allow such things as these in our world.

Now if we were God we would not allow such suffering and pain. We would not allow natural disasters that take life from ourselves and the animal life in the area. We would make the earth a place of beauty and lacking in any evil or terrible disease. We would make harmony among fellow mankind and everyone would be treated with love and respect. Oh what a world I know I would create. I would look at how far mankind has come from the barren first seeds of mankind to the dominion king of all the earth and see that man has scrambled and clawed his/her way to the top through great adversity and reached the highest mountain of the evolutionary realm and say he/she deserves so much for all they have gone through to reach this level. I would make a life free from diversity and shower this creature in love and kindness. Would you not do the same? Would not God?

Well God has created such a place. A reward for the terrible trials that we all go through here on earth. A place that will include beauty lacking evil or terrible disease. There will be harmony among all who live there. No more disease no more disasters and we will be showered in love and kindness. However, to get to this place and to appreciate such a place, we have to know what it is like to not have this freedom from disaster and terrible disease. We must know what evil really is and what love really is. We must know what choice is and what consequences are for those choices. We to be free willed and free minded harmonious individuals we must know what it is like to live without that harmony and the results that come with disharmony. IF not, how do we know love if not for hate. If not, how do we know goodness without evil? How do we learn if we have it all right now? Now if God wanted us to be able to know love we must know hate. IF we are to know kindness we must know what kindness is not. IF we know not love how can we show love to those who we would love. God wants us to know He loves us and HE would like us to return that love. How does He do that if love is all we have ever known. IF we have never known hate how could we really know love or what that means?

Now, what if we didn't have a choice to worship God? What if God just put us on this planet or even Heaven and supplied all we needed and would ever want but we had to worship and love Him. We couldn't make that choice and we would never know what choice was. I think of that as us being nothing more than pets.

So for us to know the different elements of being...to love, to hate, to be kind, to be mean, to have much, to have little to know what it is to reach self reliance and to know how to depend on someone are all unmeasurable necessities in the human being.

So now in our created world we want the created to know these things by experience which is how humans are designed. So we have to make available a way to experience love, kindness and all the in between. I would want them to know me and still keep the choice available. So if I were to create this universe I would want to give just enough evidence for those who choose to believe and a way for them to choose not to believe as well that I created them and wanted them to love me. I would want them to have a way to know there was a creator but not too much evidence as to force them to acknowledge me if they didn't want to. What better way than to have evolution be the way I create? They could choose between a natural world created by chance or by me by design. It would allow for choice, it would allow for evil and good, it would allow for tribulation and overcoming tribulation. It would allow for all those things to be experienced and the choice to decide to acknowledge and learn about me or to decided not to believe. A true choice. A true experience of opposites. Not only would it do that, it would make life exciting and worth learning more. It would keep us discovering and hopefully to discover the creator of it all.

So yes, I hate the evil in the world. But to know hate I also know what love is. I hate that children die from disease but man is overcoming disease through learning about the creation and by given that ability by God to learn and overcome. We can reach very low lows but HE allows us to reach the highest heights of our humanity. However, we could never know how high we can achieve if not for the lows. We could never know the greatness of God if not allowed to experience the opposites of everything He encompasses.

So, you may have heard this all before. You may have no desire to know a God such as this, but I am thankful that you have a true choice. I am thankful that there is a way to live by choice with Him. I don't know about hell. I don't know what torment it would be to know that the choice was mine but I let my own value to be placed upon God and to judge Him guilty without knowing the reasons and motivations that might have made it seem He didn't care. But you see that is my choice. So please don't ridicule me for my choice. Ultimately, I find reason in the world for God. I have reason behind my choices. They may not be sufficient for you. But that is the beauty of the system. Regardless of what you have chosen, I like you and I feel you are honest. So I am so glad I know that you are truly a nice person because I know the opposite too.

You've just described a guy who starts the fire, then forces us to figure how to put it out. This kind of thinking is outmoded and it's time we move beyond bronze age worldviews. If you just decided that you can be charitable, gracious, compassionate and loving because it's the right thing to do, not because belief in an invisible being compels you to, then you would experience true freedom and joy.

 

[Oncedeceived]

You've just described a guy who starts the fire, then forces us to figure how to put it out. This kind of thinking is outmoded and it's time we move beyond bronze age worldviews. If you just decided that you can be charitable, gracious, compassionate and loving because it's the right thing to do, not because belief in an invisible being compels you to, then you would experience true freedom and joy.

So Hitch, what is charitable? How about gracious? Is compassionate and loving something that we can understand only because we know what it is to be uncaring and unloving? If we can not know what the alternative to being charitable, gracious, compassionate and loving really is, how would it have any meaning?

 

[HitchSlap]

So Hitch, what is charitable? How about gracious? Is compassionate and loving something that we can understand only because we know what it is to be uncaring and unloving? If we can not know what the alternative to being charitable, gracious, compassionate and loving really is, how would it have any meaning?

I think you're smart enough to figure out what constitutes charity, benevolence, compassion and love. Ask those you bestow with these actions if it has any meaning. Then ask yourself if you're able to do these acts of kindness without a sky daddy looking over your shoulder as motivation. You seem like a genuine person in search of the truth, so I ask you to take a moment to think about this.

 

[mzungu]

Sure.

When does life start? in the womb or at birth?

Define Life!

 

[HitchSlap]

Define Life!

Nah, it's on the short list of words they won't/can't define. Along with soul, spirit, god, sin...etc.

 

[bhsmte]

When looking at the realities of this world we tend to look at all the suffering and pain the natural disasters and horrific things people do to people and ask how God could ever allow such things as these in our world.

Now if we were God we would not allow such suffering and pain. We would not allow natural disasters that take life from ourselves and the animal life in the area. We would make the earth a place of beauty and lacking in any evil or terrible disease. We would make harmony among fellow mankind and everyone would be treated with love and respect. Oh what a world I know I would create. I would look at how far mankind has come from the barren first seeds of mankind to the dominion king of all the earth and see that man has scrambled and clawed his/her way to the top through great adversity and reached the highest mountain of the evolutionary realm and say he/she deserves so much for all they have gone through to reach this level. I would make a life free from diversity and shower this creature in love and kindness. Would you not do the same? Would not God?

Well God has created such a place. A reward for the terrible trials that we all go through here on earth. A place that will include beauty lacking evil or terrible disease. There will be harmony among all who live there. No more disease no more disasters and we will be showered in love and kindness. However, to get to this place and to appreciate such a place, we have to know what it is like to not have this freedom from disaster and terrible disease. We must know what evil really is and what love really is. We must know what choice is and what consequences are for those choices. We to be free willed and free minded harmonious individuals we must know what it is like to live without that harmony and the results that come with disharmony. IF not, how do we know love if not for hate. If not, how do we know goodness without evil? How do we learn if we have it all right now? Now if God wanted us to be able to know love we must know hate. IF we are to know kindness we must know what kindness is not. IF we know not love how can we show love to those who we would love. God wants us to know He loves us and HE would like us to return that love. How does He do that if love is all we have ever known. IF we have never known hate how could we really know love or what that means?

Now, what if we didn't have a choice to worship God? What if God just put us on this planet or even Heaven and supplied all we needed and would ever want but we had to worship and love Him. We couldn't make that choice and we would never know what choice was. I think of that as us being nothing more than pets.

So for us to know the different elements of being...to love, to hate, to be kind, to be mean, to have much, to have little to know what it is to reach self reliance and to know how to depend on someone are all unmeasurable necessities in the human being.

So now in our created world we want the created to know these things by experience which is how humans are designed. So we have to make available a way to experience love, kindness and all the in between. I would want them to know me and still keep the choice available. So if I were to create this universe I would want to give just enough evidence for those who choose to believe and a way for them to choose not to believe as well that I created them and wanted them to love me. I would want them to have a way to know there was a creator but not too much evidence as to force them to acknowledge me if they didn't want to. What better way than to have evolution be the way I create? They could choose between a natural world created by chance or by me by design. It would allow for choice, it would allow for evil and good, it would allow for tribulation and overcoming tribulation. It would allow for all those things to be experienced and the choice to decide to acknowledge and learn about me or to decided not to believe. A true choice. A true experience of opposites. Not only would it do that, it would make life exciting and worth learning more. It would keep us discovering and hopefully to discover the creator of it all.

So yes, I hate the evil in the world. But to know hate I also know what love is. I hate that children die from disease but man is overcoming disease through learning about the creation and by given that ability by God to learn and overcome. We can reach very low lows but HE allows us to reach the highest heights of our humanity. However, we could never know how high we can achieve if not for the lows. We could never know the greatness of God if not allowed to experience the opposites of everything He encompasses.

So, you may have heard this all before. You may have no desire to know a God such as this, but I am thankful that you have a true choice. I am thankful that there is a way to live by choice with Him. I don't know about hell. I don't know what torment it would be to know that the choice was mine but I let my own value to be placed upon God and to judge Him guilty without knowing the reasons and motivations that might have made it seem He didn't care. But you see that is my choice. So please don't ridicule me for my choice. Ultimately, I find reason in the world for God. I have reason behind my choices. They may not be sufficient for you. But that is the beauty of the system. Regardless of what you have chosen, I like you and I feel you are honest. So I am so glad I know that you are truly a nice person because I know the opposite too.

Yes, I have heard all of this and much more.

I can not reconcile the christian God with the reality of the world and I can't put it any plainer than that. If you can, then good for you.

 

[Oncedeceived]

Those who claim that claim intelligence was created by a deity.

That is false.

Then show me how it is false.

I am a creationist that claims intelligence was created by God. I don't believe it was poofed into existence. Your claim then is false.

Then how did it happen? Explain it to me step by step.

You claimed that those who claimed intelligence was created by believed that intelligence was poofed into existence. I said that was false and gave you the reason. You conclusion was false. So now you have decided that you want a step by step explanation which you can't do yourself.

 

[Oncedeceived]

Yes, I have heard all of this and much more.

I can not reconcile the christian God with the reality of the world and I can't put it any plainer than that. If you can, then good for you.

Your choice is made. Like I said, you may have heard it before but at least you know where I am coming from.

 

[bhsmte]

Your choice is made. Like I said, you may have heard it before but at least you know where I am coming from.

Yes, I do understand your position.

 

[Loudmouth]

You claimed that those who claimed intelligence was created by believed that intelligence was poofed into existence. I said that was false and gave you the reason.

You didn't give me any reason. That is what I am asking for, the reason. What is the step by step process that God used to create? You say it isn't magical poofing, so what is it?

 

[Oncedeceived]

I think you're smart enough to figure out what constitutes charity, benevolence, compassion and love. Ask those you bestow with these actions if it has any meaning.

Would it have meaning if they didn't understand what you were bestowing on them? I think you are smart enough to know that what makes a charitable action is that it is done with the motivation of wishing to do something for someone that is not necessary or expected. The same is true of compassion, if someone is hurt or sick and you go out of your way to help would they know your motivation if you had no other action that you could take? Would that be compassion? It isn't compassion unless there is something called uncompassionate?

Then ask yourself if you're able to do these acts of kindness without a sky daddy looking over your shoulder as motivation. You seem like a genuine person in search of the truth, so I ask you to take a moment to think about this.

We are made in the image of God, so yes we can do acts of kindness and we can without God looking over our shoulder as motivation. It is that we are given a world where we can make those choices that make a difference to our fellow human beings. We can look at the firefighter that gave his life saving a baby from a burning home and know that his choice was heroic and noble. If we didn't understand the alternatives these would not be considered good and noble things. We would not understand good or bad.

Now this is not an argument for God's existence but the existence of those things that we don't like. The suffering and pain, the evil or bad. If we are just here due to evolution strictly by natural causes, we have no real evil, or real good. We can't really claim that evil is evil if the person is just how he or she is hardwired to behave. We can't really even judge a God that acts in ways we feel are immoral when we can't really claim absolute or objective morality exists.

 

[Oncedeceived]

Yes, I do understand your position.

Ok we'll call it good then. I understand your position as well. I hope that we can continue to be respectful and kind to each other even in our countering positions.

 

[HitchSlap]

Now this is not an argument for God's existence but the existence of those things that we don't like. The suffering and pain, the evil or bad. If we are just here due to evolution strictly by natural causes, we have no real evil, or real good. We can't really claim that evil is evil if the person is just how he or she is hardwired to behave. We can't really even judge a God that acts in ways we feel are immoral when we can't really claim absolute or objective morality exists.

Of course we can. I do, you do, we all do, every single day. In fact, if we are here by strictly natural causes, as all the evidence suggests, then I would expect the nature of reality to be exactly as we find it to be. I don't accept your assertion that we're not able to distinguish between malevolent and benevolent behavior? I for one, prefer to live in a world where we care for the well being of others because it's the right thing to do, not because we think we're told to by an invisible sky daddy.

Unfortunately for you, you have a belief system that includes a superior being who created a world with leukemia for eight year olds so we might better understand what it's like to not have leukemia. I find this line of thinking a bit twisted and sadistic. But that's just me, and I have a superior morality than the one in the Bible.