The Evolution of Morality

[Oncedeceived]

Evolution by means of natural selection is the most parsimonious explanation there is. It's robust and backed by mountains of evidence. This is not even up for serious debate.

As for lies, no record of Herod killing all males two years and under.

Now you can claim that evolution is evident, however, you would have to show that natural selection could create intelligence from a non-intelligent process. That is not back by mountains of evidence and in fact has no evidence to support it.

So it is not so parsimonious as you would lead me to believe.

For Herod's killing all males in Bethlehem. Prove that it was a lie. First of all, the fact that there is no record in anything other than the Bible for this event; is not that unusual. It was a small town insignificant to the Romans. It would be doubtful if it was a town of more than 100 people of varying ages. Even as many as 600 would still hold very few children the age we are speaking of here. It would not be like a mass murder of hundreds of children, but a murder of maybe 1% of the population perhaps? So why would anyone take the time or effort to write about it?

 

[Oncedeceived]

I assume in regards to Jesus?

Which outside sources do you rely on?

All of them.

 

[bhsmte]

All of them.

Which would include?

 

[Oncedeceived]

Which would include?

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Tacitus[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Suetonius
[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Lucian
[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Pliny
[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Josephus
The Talmud

I asked a question back earlier about what realities you claimed changed your mind on your faith. Would please answer that for me. Thanks.
[/FONT]

 

[bhsmte]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Tacitus[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Suetonius
[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Lucian
[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Pliny
[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Josephus
The Talmud

I asked a question back earlier about what realities you claimed changed your mind on your faith. Would please answer that for me. Thanks.
[/FONT]

To put it simply:

Looking at how the bible describes God; all loving, all knowing, loves everyone, has a plan for everyone, all powerful, has all knowledge, everything he commands is good, etc. etc. etc.

Then comparing that description, to the reality of the world:

-the immense suffering by millions including children who die in agony and the desperate prayers that go unanswered
-Letting man wallow on earth for a minimum of 100,000 before sending Jesus to be the savior
-Only sending Jesus to a remote part of civilization and not allowing the savior to have any exposure to most of the population
-christianity states those who do not believe as them, will experience eternal torment, yet only a limited few were exposed to the savior
-christians are allowed to dump their sins on someone else and be cleansed, even if they have done terrible deeds. Yet, the person who lived a loving caring life in another part of the world and was not exposed to Jesus and prays to a different God, is doomed.
-the NT is shoddy at best, when it comes to reliability. Ever wonder why matthew, mark and luke never mention Jesus was God? That would seem to be a pretty important item to include. Only John, which was written 70 years after Jesus lived and is considered the least reliable of the gospels, mentions Jesus is God.

I could go on and on, but I simply got to a point, where I could not reconcile the God as described in the bible, with all of the above and more, because I don't believe an all loving, all caring God, would allow the above to take place and I haven't even mentioned the stuff in the OT. This is why I am an atheist towards the christian God and agnostic towards a non-personal, universal deity.

If you can reconcile this, then have at it, I can't and I have heard all of the typical christian explanations of justifying all of the above and those explanations are all over the map (hence so many denominations of christianity) and don't hold water and are simply made up.

 

[EternalDragon]

To put it simply:

Looking at how the bible describes God; all loving, all knowing, loves everyone, has a plan for everyone, all powerful, has all knowledge, everything he commands is good, etc. etc. etc.

Then comparing that description, to the reality of the world:

-the immense suffering by millions including children who die in agony and the desperate prayers that go unanswered
-Letting man wallow on earth for a minimum of 100,000 before sending Jesus to be the savior
-Only sending Jesus to a remote part of civilization and not allowing the savior to have any exposure to most of the population
-christianity states those who do not believe as them, will experience eternal torment, yet only a limited few were exposed to the savior
-christians are allowed to dump their sins on someone else and be cleansed, even if they have done terrible deeds. Yet, the person who lived a loving caring life in another part of the world and was not exposed to Jesus and prays to a different God, is doomed.
-the NT is shoddy at best, when it comes to reliability. Ever wonder why matthew, mark and luke never mention Jesus was God? That would seem to be a pretty important item to include. Only John, which was written 70 years after Jesus lived and is considered the least reliable of the gospels, mentions Jesus is God.

It does not seem as if you have given the bible a chance. The answers to all of the above are in there.

 

[bhsmte]

It does not seem as if you have given the bible a chance. The answers to all of the above are in there.

Yea, thats what some claim and I have hear them all. They do nothing to reconcile anything IMO, they only serve to rationalize the story.

 

[mzungu]

I am a creationist that claims intelligence was created by God. I don't believe it was poofed into existence. Your claim then is false.

The only ones claiming intelligence was poofed into existence are the creationists (Adam and Eve). Evolution does not poof anything into existence!

 

[AV1611VET]

To put it simply:

Equally simple:

1 Samuel 8:18 And ye shall cry out in that day because of your king which ye shall have chosen you; and the LORD will not hear you in that day.

Job 35:13 Surely God will not hear vanity, neither will the Almighty regard it.

Psalm 66:18 If I regard iniquity in my heart, the Lord will not hear me:

Isaiah 1:15 And when ye spread forth your hands, I will hide mine eyes from you: yea, when ye make many prayers, I will not hear: your hands are full of blood.

Isaiah 30:9 That this is a rebellious people, lying children, children that will not hear the law of the LORD:

Isaiah 59:2 But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you, that he will not hear.

Jeremiah 7:16 Therefore pray not thou for this people, neither lift up cry nor prayer for them, neither make intercession to me: for I will not hear thee.

Jeremiah 11:14 Therefore pray not thou for this people, neither lift up a cry or prayer for them: for I will not hear them in the time that they cry unto me for their trouble.

Jeremiah 13:17 But if ye will not hear it, my soul shall weep in secret places for your pride; and mine eye shall weep sore, and run down with tears, because the LORD'S flock is carried away captive.

Jeremiah 14:12 When they fast, I will not hear their cry; and when they offer burnt offering and an oblation, I will not accept them: but I will consume them by the sword, and by the famine, and by the pestilence.

Jeremiah 22:5 But if ye will not hear these words, I swear by myself, saith the LORD, that this house shall become a desolation.

Jeremiah 22:21 I spake unto thee in thy prosperity; but thou saidst, I will not hear. This hath been thy manner from thy youth, that thou obeyedst not my voice. {prosperity: Heb. prosperities}

Amos 5:23 Take thou away from me the noise of thy songs; for I will not hear the melody of thy viols.

Micah 3:4 Then shall they cry unto the LORD, but he will not hear them: he will even hide his face from them at that time, as they have behaved themselves ill in their doings.

Malachi 2:2 If ye will not hear, and if ye will not lay it to heart, to give glory unto my name, saith the LORD of hosts, I will even send a curse upon you, and I will curse your blessings: yea, I have cursed them already, because ye do not lay it to heart.

Acts 3:23 And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people.

 

[AV1611VET]

The only ones claiming intelligence was poofed into existence are the creationists (Adam and Eve). Evolution does not poof anything into existence!

So when does abiogenesis occur? in the womb, or after birth?

 

[mzungu]

Equally simple:

1 Samuel 8:18 And ye shall cry out in that day because of your king which ye shall have chosen you; and the LORD will not hear you in that day.

Job 35:13 Surely God will not hear vanity, neither will the Almighty regard it.

Psalm 66:18 If I regard iniquity in my heart, the Lord will not hear me:

Isaiah 1:15 And when ye spread forth your hands, I will hide mine eyes from you: yea, when ye make many prayers, I will not hear: your hands are full of blood.

Isaiah 30:9 That this is a rebellious people, lying children, children that will not hear the law of the LORD:

Isaiah 59:2 But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you, that he will not hear.

Jeremiah 7:16 Therefore pray not thou for this people, neither lift up cry nor prayer for them, neither make intercession to me: for I will not hear thee.

Jeremiah 11:14 Therefore pray not thou for this people, neither lift up a cry or prayer for them: for I will not hear them in the time that they cry unto me for their trouble.

Jeremiah 13:17 But if ye will not hear it, my soul shall weep in secret places for your pride; and mine eye shall weep sore, and run down with tears, because the LORD'S flock is carried away captive.

Jeremiah 14:12 When they fast, I will not hear their cry; and when they offer burnt offering and an oblation, I will not accept them: but I will consume them by the sword, and by the famine, and by the pestilence.

Jeremiah 22:5 But if ye will not hear these words, I swear by myself, saith the LORD, that this house shall become a desolation.

Jeremiah 22:21 I spake unto thee in thy prosperity; but thou saidst, I will not hear. This hath been thy manner from thy youth, that thou obeyedst not my voice. {prosperity: Heb. prosperities}

Amos 5:23 Take thou away from me the noise of thy songs; for I will not hear the melody of thy viols.

Micah 3:4 Then shall they cry unto the LORD, but he will not hear them: he will even hide his face from them at that time, as they have behaved themselves ill in their doings.

Malachi 2:2 If ye will not hear, and if ye will not lay it to heart, to give glory unto my name, saith the LORD of hosts, I will even send a curse upon you, and I will curse your blessings: yea, I have cursed them already, because ye do not lay it to heart.

Acts 3:23 And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people.

Verily! Allaah commands that you should render back the trusts to those to whom they are due [al-Nisa' 4:58]

And let not your hand be tied (like a miser) to your neck, nor stretch it forth to its utmost reach (like a spendthrift) [al-Isra' 17:29]

Eat and drink, but waste not by extravagance [al-A'raaf 7:31]

And take a provision (with you) for the journey, but the best provision is al-taqwa (piety, righteousness) [al-Baqarah 2:197]

And whosoever fears Allaah and keeps his duty to Him, He will make a way for him to get out (from every difficulty) [al-Talaaq 65:2]

And whosoever puts his trust in Allaah, then He will suffice him [al-Talaaq 65:3]

He who obeys the Messenger has indeed obeyed Allaah [al-Nisa' 4:80]

By no means shall you attain al-birr (righteousness) until you spend (in Allaah’s cause) of that which you love [Aal 'Imraan 3:92]

Allaah (Alone) is Sufficient for us, and He is the Best Disposer of Affairs (for us) [Aal 'Imraan 3:171]

And walk not on the earth with conceit and arrogance [al-Isra' 17:37]

And turn not your face away from men with pride [Luqmaan 31:18]

And be moderate (or show no arrogance) in your walking, and lower your voice [Luqmaan 31:19]

And give not a thing in order to have more (or consider not your deeds of obedience to Allaah as a favour to Allaah) [al-Muddaththir 74:6]

“O ye who believe! Do not squander one another’s wealth in vanities, but let there be amongst you traffic and trade by mutual good will.” Qur’an:4:29

 

[mzungu]

So when does abiogenesis occur? in the womb, or after birth?

Be serious now AV!

 

[nuttypiglet]

You, like many, unfortunately focus on the small picture instead of the large. Gods only Son suffered on Earth, so why should we be any different. It isn't God who causes suffering after all, it's Man. It isn't this world that God is worried too much about now, it's the new one to come. Existence here is really short, I mean what's 70-80 years compared to the age of the Universe? nothing. I understand where you are coming from with regards to the suffering, I struggled with it for years. I would see children die of cancer or accidents and ask myself why God would allow that. Ever since Adams sin, we have basically gone our own way and believed we can make it alone. The prince of this world is Satan and we have to put up with it. However, the big picture is where God is all loving and merciful. Rather than wash his hands of the whole thing, he is giving us a chance for a much better life, an eternal one. A short time of suffering is well worth an eternity of happiness. Don't worry, the ones responsible for all this will be punished by eternal death and we will get to witness it.
My personal view is that we wasn't really made for this world at all. We were made for the next one. What causes me to think that is the Soul. The body is simply a vessel which carries the Soul and needs a Soul to live. When the body dies, the Soul is released but needs a new body and it will be one made from spirit next time, something everlasting. If God expected us to live forever on this Earth, he wouldn't have given us a Soul. Also the Soul is safe, it belongs to God himself and not even Angels can damage it. It's as though he designed this whole feature knowing what was going to happen, and give us a way to be saved. It's like your emotions, physical makeup, personality, memories etc are all backed up on a hard drive (SOUL) ready to be restored in a new body. Clever to say the least.

 

[AV1611VET]

Be serious now AV!

Sure.

When does life start? in the womb or at birth?

 

[biggles53]

I’m curious about why there is so much interest in this question.

It seems the point someone is trying to make is that morality has evolved.

Why wouldn’t anyone expect that?

Exactly. I think the evidence throughout the animal kingdom supports that theory nicely....

But then the conclusion appears to be “and therefore that is evidence against God’s existence.”

Nice straw....as the creator of this thread, I make no such conclusion... In fact, the consideration of gods I find to be redundant....

It also seems another assumption is that morality is the goal.

Straw on straw.....

As us the case with all evolutionary change, there is no 'end goal' in mind.....moral codes are the result, rather than the goal.....

Is the point that’s attempted here that all we need is a merely moral society, and if evolution produces morality, therefore there is no God?

It’s an argument that holds no water.

Errrr........so why are you putting it...?

Again—why the level of interest?

Because another characteristic that has developed in humans is the propensity to seek solutions to questions....

 

[biggles53]

There is zero chance that intelligent life could have formed without God. .

Why...?

You make the concept of intelligence to be something far more complex than it need be....'Intelligence' is nothing more than a measurement of cerebral activity....as nervous systems evolved, this activity became more varied, beginning with the formation of nerve bundles, through to simple brains, through to what we see in the higher orders of mammals....

Pretty straightforward really...........and no gods required thanks.....

 

[nuttypiglet]

Sure.

When does life start? in the womb or at birth?

are you asking from a scientific or religious point of view?

 

[biggles53]

are you asking from a scientific or religious point of view?

Is there a certain irony in someone admitting that they don't know everything and then confirming it by being unable to spell Darwin.....?

A redundancy maybe...?

 

[AV1611VET]

are you asking from a scientific or religious point of view?

Scientific.

 

[Belk]

Sure.

When does life start? in the womb or at birth?

Before that. From a scientific point of view life is an ongoing process.