The Evolution of Morality

[HitchSlap]

I agree with you for once. To deny reality is to be in denial.

 

[AV1611VET]

I agree with you for once. To deny reality is to be in denial.

Your reality is full of hypotheses and theories; six just for how we got our moon.

In addition, they change more than the Periodic Table.

Even Evolution 1.0 is now what? Evolution 10.1.5?

 

[HitchSlap]

Your reality is full of hypotheses and theories; six just for how we got our moon.

In addition, they change more than the Periodic Table.

Even Evolution 1.0 is now what? Evolution 10.1.5?

My reality is your reality, chief. Sorry, but you don't get to make your own.

 

[AV1611VET]

My reality is your reality, chief. Sorry, but you don't get to make your own.

We are soon to be removed from reality, while Earth undergoes a reality check.

Then we will return and help set up a reality that no scientific methodist could create in a lab or on paper.

Finally, reality will flee from the face of God at the Great White Throne Judgment; leaving its strongest adherents behind to fend for themselves.

 

[twob4me]

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~~~~~~~~~~~~MOD HAT OFF!~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

 

[Belk]

Going hiking again? Be sure to bring crockoduck repellant!.

 

[HitchSlap]

We are soon to be removed from reality, while Earth undergoes a reality check.

Then we will return and help set up a reality that no scientific methodist could create in a lab or on paper.

Finally, reality will flee from the face of God at the Great White Throne Judgment; leaving its strongest adherents behind to fend for themselves.

This seems like a baseless assertion. Do you have exact dates for these coming events?

 

[AV1611VET]

This seems like a baseless assertion. Do you have exact dates for these coming events?

I'm not Camping.

 

[HitchSlap]

I'm not Camping.

No, but you do hike at the Nile.

 

[nuttypiglet]

You didn't give me any reason. That is what I am asking for, the reason. What is the step by step process that God used to create? You say it isn't magical poofing, so what is it?

Step by step? hmm. God took the elements of the Earth and formed Man in a garden in Eden. Now the man was lifeless and God, making man in his own image, gave him a Soul (a part of himself). This is life, this is what caused Adam to live. Without a Soul we cannot exist. So God didn't take anything from nothingness, he made everything using something that existed, even the Universe. There is a misconception that God sprang stuff up OUT of nothing, but he used pre-existing materials and placed them where such a thing didn't exist. No magic voodoo stuff involved at all. It's like you introducing air into a perfect vacuum. There was no air there, yet now there is. It's a bit different with the Universe because God looked down from Heaven, into the lowest of the low, where only darkness existed. That's where he created the Universe. He sent down energy into that void and using the word, his word, he commanded it came forth and expanded, creating the Universe. All to his laws and specifications.

 

[nuttypiglet]

Are you saying abiogenesis does not occur in the womb or at birth?

If so, which side of the abortion issue is science on?

Let me put it another way. In a scientific term, life comes from life, so always exists. It has since it first appeared. If cells don't make copies, total extinction would occur. So, we can say that life has existed since the first cell, and anything born today has existed since that time because they are simply copies.
On a religious standpoint, we have to consider something different. A body is not living in Gods eyes until it has a Soul. He doesn't consider plants as living, they are simply food and a product to supply Oxygen. So if you are wondering when a Soul enters a body, that is an interesting topic. Generally it is accepted in Judaism that a Soul enters the body when a baby takes its first breath. I don't agree. They get this from genesis where it says "And God breathed the breath of life into the Man and he became a living Soul". Firstly God does not breathe. Secondly he became a living Soul yes, but only because it had a body to reside in. This is talking about a part of God himself being put into the Man, a Soul so he could live. Personally I believe that the Soul enters a baby when it is born. When it enters the World. That is of course if it's alive. Jesus referred many times to birth and being born again, and I think it's this process where the Soul gets put into the child. Until then, it is nurtured by the Mothers Soul.

 

[nuttypiglet]

My reality is your reality, chief. Sorry, but you don't get to make your own.

He isn't far off the mark here though. What science considered reality two hundred years ago, is very different now. Reality is the state of which things exist, not what we imagine they may be. So reality is a kind of fixed thing and shouldn't be moved. What's real today should obviously be real tomorrow. So couldn't we actually say that science has no reality? I mean, it does discover new things and have to make lots of adjustments.

 

[nuttypiglet]

This seems like a baseless assertion. Do you have exact dates for these coming events?

Actually there are some dates based on pretty good evidence. There will be a tribulation which lasts for 7 years, but the second half of that tribulation is called the GREAT tribulation. Things get pretty nasty. Through the evidence gathered, the middle of the 7 year trib is 2017. Which means it must have started 3.5 years prior to that. However, that isn't the great trib, just the build up if you like. So 2013/2014 has to be the start. We have seen financial issues hitting many countries already and natural disasters increasing. Yes I know they have always happened, but if you look at the statistics of earthquakes for example, more are happening now than in times past. In 2017 things really heat up and will happen in the middle east. Israel will be attacked by many nations (probably islamic) and God says he will not allow the Jews to lose their land again. In 2020, Christ has to return with HIS army to put a stop to it, or there will be nothing left. He destroys those attacking Israel and gathers anyone who believe in him, to bypass his Fathers judgement which is next.

 

[Oncedeceived]

Sure you can. You know good and well you wouldn't intentionally give eight year olds leukemia. This makes your morality superior to your invisible sky daddy, as well.

Continuing my scenario from bhmte's post, evolution was a perfect way for God to create and adapt living forms. Unfortunately, when you have a process designed to further diversity and the need to adapt you have the problem of that system creating errors. It seems that a new study being done by Paul Davies and Charles Lineweaver hypothesizes cancer is ancient and could possibly be in an ancient phenotype that actually goes back possibly 1.6 billion years. They claim:

Because it fulfills absolutely crucial functions during the early stages of embryo development," Davies explains. "Genes that are active in the embryo and normally dormant thereafter are found to be switched back on in cancer. These same genes are the 'ancient' ones, deep in the tree of multicellular life."

New theory uncovers cancer's deep evolutionary roots

So due to a crucial function during the early stages of embryo development cancer can be triggered. So God does not give cancer to anyone, but due to a possible necessary function in embryo development it came about.


Read more at: New theory uncovers cancer's deep evolutionary roots

 

[Golden Yak]

Yowza, this thread does grow quick.

I would be interested to know how long you think it would take to evolve not just one type of eye but all the different eyes found in the Cambrian.

Well, different types of eyes could be developing in different ways simultaneously, and would all have evolved for roughly the same amount of time, at different rates. And there isn't necessarily anything that would prevent two separate species from developing similar traits independent of any relation. I would have to check out the fossil record for types of eyes from the earliest simplest to the earliest complex.

How do we determine the truth and which are best?

For my part, I would discuss my views regarding behavior, why I held them, and why I felt they were superior. I would set goals based on those views and then evaluate what the best way to achieve them would be. Others would be invited to share their views as well. We debate and convince and compromise until the objectively best solutions are determined.

So if they have this level of awareness of self preservation and little or no awareness of how cooperation will aid in that survival, how does the survival of the species or group arise from self preservation?

Creatures living in groups would be aware that cooperation is something that can help them, on some level. That would be part of their awareness of what is required for their own survival. They aren't necessarily consciously thinking long-term, multi-generational species survival. But their behavior will be steered towards that by survival pressures, like any other trait.

Ok. We have determined that things survive that lack intelligence, we see things surviving such as neanderthals without thinking about anything more than self preservation.

Hold on, we don't know that about neanderthals. Just because not every individual thinks specifically in terms of far-reaching genetic survival of the species as a whole, doesn't mean creatures don't value others of their own species on some level. It doesn't even need to be a conscious thought.

Would you not agree that for morality to have evolved it would have to be the same for all humans at least? If it were evolved behavior wouldn't be evolved within the species? If so, why do we have such differences? If it is hard wired into our brains it would seem to be universal within the species would it not?

I think humans do have a general set of behaviors across the board. There are anomalies as you would expect, but by and large there are shared values - family, aversion to killing, etc. You posted a set of 10 Commandments earlier in this thread and pointed out how humans generally keep to the ones that aren't specifically related to worshiping the christian God - killing, lying, stealing, cheating are all things that create strife and instability, and it makes sense for creatures like us to dislike them. To me, that speaks more to these shared behaviors being natural traits rather than supernaturally imbued. If they are supernatural, it would suggest God cares more about people getting along than He does about what they think of Him, or whether they think of Him at all.

But if there were miraculous violations of the natural laws they would be considered natural anyway. Anything in nature would be considered nature. No matter what you would see, whether it be like we see with rules and laws or whether there were violations of those laws you would see it as the way it is.

Do you believe miracles are undetectable? That suspensions of natural law have no impact in the world?

If you think about it, why are there rules and laws that the universe adheres to if the universe was a result of unplanned and entirely unguided processes? How do laws and rules create themselves?

Dunno - same way God created Himself?

That can go both ways, correct? If we saw life existed in violation to universal law we would see naturalists explaining it as a natural violation of the universal law.

Universal laws by definition could only be violated supernaturally.

However, you do not know whether that is even true. You do not know that the universe could have expanded without supernatural aid. You do not know that the universe would not collapse if the undetectable force that keeps it from collapsing was gone. You don't know what that force is but it is required for our universes existence. You don't know what supernatural aid is required for the continuous function of existence of the universe or life itself.

Fair enough. I've no reason to assume the supernatural is involved at any level, but I'll remain open to the possibility that it is.

Why would it be magic?

Magic, supernatural, specially created, divinely forged, etc. Don't believe in it. I think stuff can be great without it.

Fine Tuning Parameters for the Universe

Do you think that if any of these parameters were off, God could not have created life, or kept the universe from collapsing, etc?

How would you know? There already is the scenario that the universe requires great precision for life, laws that the universe must adhere to and exact requirements for life, yet you claim that these are all just how it all happened naturally. You see that there are forces that keep the universe together today that are not even detectable on their own, but can only be known to exist due to the way things behave in regard to them. Yet you claim that there is no need for anything supernatural. You can claim that we don't know now but we might later, but we know much when it comes to gravity but we still don't have a grasp on what it is, how it exists. We know it exists because of the effects of it, but we don't even know what it is.

There are certainly gaps in human knowledge. Lightning was once attributed to various gods, disease to demons. If I'd lived in a time where those misconceptions were widely accepted as truth, would I be correct in doing the same? Wouldn't it be more honest to admit I don't know the cause rather than accepting an incorrect explanation? An all-powerful deity makes a very convenient explanation for anything we don't understand, but is it the correct one?

Which is sensible. However to claim supernatural is not required when you are not aware of how much there is to explain naturally that defies natural explanations is basing your conclusions on your worldview rather than the evidence out there. You might not know, but you can make an educated determination based on what you have available to you.

Fair enough. I would modify it to 'the supernatural is not evidently required'.

Question - are any of these precise measurements you've brought up the reason you became convinced of God's existence?

We can indeed, but what of the person who made the sacrifice? That needs to be known to make that sacrifice.

What about them?

Reason is not left at the door for faith. Interpretations may lead some to do so. However, when one knows that God exists and is who He claims to be, it is not a matter of dismissing evidence but evaluating it through a different lens.

But does faith take precedence over reason and evidence? Should it ever?

Do you think that people go to hell because they do not believe in God or because they will not accept God's rules?

I've heard people claim both. Neither one seems like it would warrant it, personally.

Ok you believe in free will. So in naturalistic explanations why do you think free will exists.

Free will is an aspect of intelligence, which I believe evolved. If you're going to hit me with the 'if we evolved naturally free will is an illusion because it's constrained by our biology' argument, I'll head that one off right now by pointing out that free will is necessarily constrained by reality whatever its origin happens to be - we can't 'will' ourselves to do certain things, but this doesn't mean free will doesn't exist.


Gonna cover the last bit in 2nd post, since its a lot of questions.

 

[Golden Yak]

If God exists and has created the universe as He claims, do you think that He deserves credit for it?

Sure.

Does He deserve appreciation for the very breath we take each moment?

I can't speak for everyone, but I've enjoyed life so far, so He gets a big hug from me for the gift, sure.

Does He deserve to be viewed as a Creator, if He in fact created us?

No argument here.

IF HE deserves these does He not deserve to live with those who wish to accept and love Him for it or with those who refuse to accept and show appreciation to Him?

I don't know about how anyone deserves to live, or how you'd tell, but I certainly have no objection to people choosing how they wish to live, or with who.

Now is it true that there are those who deserve judgement?

In my opinion, yes.

Someone that kills someone else without due cause, do they deserve judgement and punishment? Are there those who steal from others, do they deserve judgement and punishment?

Eternal punishment? In torment?

IF yes, we do see that there is a moral code that we adhere to that says to do these things causes them to be judged and punishment to be made if they are found guilty.

Do you think that if we punished all transgressions in our society with life imprisonment and 'round the clock torment, we would be closer to morally perfect judgement and punishment, or further away from it?

Is this moral or immoral? We would claim this is a moral judgement and punishment is deserved.

In my opinion, yes. There is a broad spectrum of actions and warranted punishments in my opinion as well, however.

If we are all morally guilty in the eyes of God because He is perfect and requires those around Him to be moral, do we deserve punishment?

You assert that morality comes from God, so what you're essentially saying is that God wants people around Him to only do what He wants them to do. So not being moral = doing something God doesn't want you to.

Again, I'm not sure how it follows that God is so perfect, anyone who does something he doesn't want them too therefore deserves eternal punishment and torment.

No one's that perfect.

If so, would we wish to have mercy? If we want mercy and God devised a way to show mercy if we only allow Him His status of Creator and God.

I think any system of judgement which starts out with everyone guilty by default at birth, and must beg off their sentence, is not one I would trust to carry out any kind of worthwhile justice.

I also have to say that I don't equate acknowledging the existence and accomplishments of God with worship of Him. Credit alone is not what it being demanded - obeisance is, on pain of eternal torment.

I can express appreciation for a work of art as well as admiration and respect for the artist. When the artist starts demanding that everyone admire him or else he'll set them on fire, my respect begins to slip.

A simple way to avoid punishment and to live forever without punishment. Is that a fair exchange?

I take issue with the threat of punishment in the first place, frankly. As for it being a fair exchange, maybe if it weren't offered under the threat of punishment - me handing my wallet over to a mugger so I don't get shot in the head is a 'fair exchange'. I'd rather keep my wallet, but I certainly don't want to be shot. And I'm not about to thank the guy for it.

 

[Golden Yak]

Actually there are some dates based on pretty good evidence. There will be a tribulation which lasts for 7 years, but the second half of that tribulation is called the GREAT tribulation. Things get pretty nasty. Through the evidence gathered, the middle of the 7 year trib is 2017. Which means it must have started 3.5 years prior to that. However, that isn't the great trib, just the build up if you like. So 2013/2014 has to be the start. We have seen financial issues hitting many countries already and natural disasters increasing. Yes I know they have always happened, but if you look at the statistics of earthquakes for example, more are happening now than in times past. In 2017 things really heat up and will happen in the middle east. Israel will be attacked by many nations (probably islamic) and God says he will not allow the Jews to lose their land again. In 2020, Christ has to return with HIS army to put a stop to it, or there will be nothing left. He destroys those attacking Israel and gathers anyone who believe in him, to bypass his Fathers judgement which is next.

Whoa, dang. That's the most definite timeline I've heard.

So you're saying if these events do not come to pass within the next 6-7 years, your beliefs are false?

 

[mzungu]

You sound like my wife!

Don't they all

 

[mzungu]

He isn't far off the mark here though. What science considered reality two hundred years ago, is very different now. Reality is the state of which things exist, not what we imagine they may be. So reality is a kind of fixed thing and shouldn't be moved. What's real today should obviously be real tomorrow. So couldn't we actually say that science has no reality? I mean, it does discover new things and have to make lots of adjustments.

It all depends on what is meant by reality. Ask a quantum physicist and you may be shocked to discover that reality is a totally different thing to what you perceive it to be.

"Nothing Exists but atoms and the void" Democritus. 460 BC

 

[biggles53]

Actually there are some dates based on pretty good evidence. There will be a tribulation which lasts for 7 years, but the second half of that tribulation is called the GREAT tribulation. Things get pretty nasty. Through the evidence gathered, the middle of the 7 year trib is 2017. Which means it must have started 3.5 years prior to that. However, that isn't the great trib, just the build up if you like. So 2013/2014 has to be the start. We have seen financial issues hitting many countries already and natural disasters increasing. Yes I know they have always happened, but if you look at the statistics of earthquakes for example, more are happening now than in times past. In 2017 things really heat up and will happen in the middle east. Israel will be attacked by many nations (probably islamic) and God says he will not allow the Jews to lose their land again. In 2020, Christ has to return with HIS army to put a stop to it, or there will be nothing left. He destroys those attacking Israel and gathers anyone who believe in him, to bypass his Fathers judgement which is next.

Going to feel a bit silly on New Year's Eve 2020, aren't you....?

Or will you just do as every other failed doomsayer has done and just shift the goalposts as time runs out...?

Oh...and your nonsense about increased earthquakes is exactly that....nonsense..

A perfect example of a foregone conclusion in search of a justification...!