Main arguments against Angels (Gen 6)

[x141]

When we measure the word of God by something outside of self it invariable becomes an image that brings you into bondage (His beloved is as a garden enclosed or a fountain sealed. I hear the words that are unlawful, or those things that can't be put into words everyday now. Until we have entered into the city, the truth that these things are become elusive to us, or waters in a cracked cistern.

If you build a city out of any one truth your journey ends, that is until you are brought to the place by the one who leads you into this all truth of self to sacrifice the very thing you turned into an image which in type is as a manna left over a day.

 

[yeshuasavedme]

The River that came out of Eden and watered the Garden/Paradise and became four heads to four rivers on earth beneath is an atmospheric river.

Atmospheric rivers can carry more water than the Amazon.

Paradise/the Garden of God in Eden, is in the third heaven, says the Word of God.

The river out of Eden came out of heaven's realms, and is an atmospheric river.
The heavens were stretched out from the earth on day 2 of creation week, between the divided in two waters of creation -so says the Word of God, and so; an atmospheric river came out of the third heaven and watered the Garden of God, and became four river heads on earth below.

2Cr 12:2-4 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth; such an one caught up to the third heaven.
And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth.. How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.

Rev 2:7 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.

Atmospheric rivers:
ESRL : PSD : Atmospheric River Information Page

Look at the Word, not at imaginations that are contradicted by the Word.

 

[x141]

Look at the Word, not at imaginations that are contradicted by the Word.

The life the father has in himself and granted to be in Jesus is a tree, or is the tree symbolic?

 

[SummaScriptura]

There's a problem though, in that there could be forgeries, and we only have fragments of the dead sea scrolls.

i have no issue with reading it and have a few times. It is read worthy. Just iffy in origin in the state we have it to read. It is quoted (or something much like it) in scripture.

175 years after the Book of Enoch had re-emerged on the world stage, after re-surfacing in Ethiopia, its authenticity was plausibly doubted by many who believed it to be a forgery. After all, it would not be the first time someone in ancient times had tried to recreate a ‘lost book’ and put it forth as original. The truth is, without some sort of external corroboration, a legitimate air of doubt could have remained upon the Book of Enoch recovered from Ethiopia.

In the late 1940’s, a discovery was made which removes all doubt that Ethiopic Enoch is the same book quoted in the Bible. The discovery of the Dead Sea Scrolls in caves in the desert of Judea, included the discovery a number of truly ancient copies of the Book of Enoch. Fragments from seven copies of Enoch in Aramaic had survived. These fragments have been positively dated to centuries before Christ, making them more than 2,000 years old. An additional three fragments of Greek copies of Enoch were also found there.

These Dead Sea Scroll fragments of Enoch have been used to verify and spot-check the reliability of the Ethiopian copies of Enoch. Since the Dead Sea Scroll copies of Enoch have been dated to two to three centuries before Christ, modern readers can now be certain the complete copies of Enoch found in Ethiopia preserve the book that was quoted by Jude and referred to by others in the New Testament.

Copyright © 2006-2013 by R.I. Burns All rights reserved including print and electronic versions.

 

[SummaScriptura]

deleted dupe

 

[SummaScriptura]

Ethiopian Christianity is literally the only sect I can think of that has Enoch in the canon.
It's odd just seeing it quoted so casually.

There are a few facts which add some degree of credibility to this.

The Ethiopian Church consists of Falasha Jews who converted en masse to Christianity a long, long time ago. This occurred at a time when the Jews of Ethiopia were effectively isolated from the Jews of Palestine. So these Jews did not get the memo by the Jews in Israel in the late 1st century that the Book of Enoch was no longer to be of value to Jews. They kept right on reading and copying and presrerving the book.

Several centuries later, the Jewish/Christian Ethiopian Church also missed the memo from Auggie Daddy the Great and St. Jerome to the effect the Book of Enoch was now no longer to be read or copied or preserved. So, while all the copies of the Book of Enoch in the Greek and Latin branches of the Church were not read and not copied and not preserved but rather were neglected, decayed, and disappeared to time and the elements, the Church in Ethiopia just kept right on merrily reading, copying and preserving.

Thank God for this provedence for if the Church of Ethiopia had been integrated with these other Jews of the 1st century or the Christians of the 4th and 5th centuries, the Book of Enoch would be lost even now.

Briefly put, the Book of Enoch has been in someone's canon of Scripture as far back as anyone can determine.

 

[yeshuasavedme]

There are a few facts which add some degree of credibility to this.

The Ethiopian Church consists of Falasha Jews who converted en masse to Christianity a long, long time ago. This occurred at a time when the Jews of Ethiopia were effectively isolated from the Jews of Palestine. So these Jews did not get the memo by the Jews in Israel in the late 1st century that the Book of Enoch was no longer to be of value to Jews. They kept right on reading and copying and presrerving the book.

Several centuries later, the Jewish/Christian Ethiopian Church also missed the memo from Auggie Daddy the Great and St. Jerome to the effect the Book of Enoch was now no longer to be read or copied or preserved. So, while all the copies of the Book of Enoch in the Greek and Latin branches of the Church were not read and not copied and not preserved but rather were neglected, decayed, and disappeared to time and the elements, the Church in Ethiopia just kept right on merrily reading, copying and preserving.

Thank God for this provedence for if the Church of Ethiopia had been integrated with these other Jews of the 1st century or the Christians of the 4th and 5th centuries, the Book of Enoch would be lost even now.

Briefly put, the Book of Enoch has been in someone's canon of Scripture as far back as anyone can determine.

Yep.

 

[Optimus Fortis]

Briefly put, the Book of Enoch has been in someone's canon of Scripture as far back as anyone can determine.

I think it is perfectly reasonable to ask why the Book of Enoch has been kicked out which at the very least mentions God while the Book of Esther is considered cannon which doesn't mention God at all.

 

[SummaScriptura]

I was quite surprised to find that almost nobody at my church agreed with me when I spoke about the fallen angels in Genesis 6.
They refused to even give consideration to the "sons of God" being anything other than humans.

The translators of the NIV and Good news clearly agree that we are not talking about humans in this passage, so what are the main arguments against what is so obviously written?

I should also point out that if the main objection is what Jesus said to the Sadducees regarding the widow of seven husbands, it is, not only a very weak argument, but in fact adds credence to the fallen angel account.
(If you could marry in heaven, there would be no need for them to fall)

Also, if we can compile a serious scriptural based argument against Gen 6 talking about angels, who are the angels that were punished for sinning and what was their sin (if not breeding with human women), here I refer to 2 Peter:4-5 and Jude 1:6.

Before the time of Christ, when the Jews who wrote and preserved the Old Testament Scriptures were the only interpreters of those Scriptures the commonly held interpretation of Genesis 6:1-4, was as follows… the angels, the heavenly sons of God, also known as Watchers, lusted after the daughters of mankind and conspired to break God's law; they left their assigned abode in heaven, to take human wives and have children. They defiled themselves by sexual relations with women in order to give birth to children who turned out to be gigantic and monstrous. This was the unified Jewish/Christian understanding from the period of 2nd-Temple Judaism and prior.

Certainly the idea that angels could interbreed with human women seems repugnant to our modern sensibilities, as it was also to the leaders of Greek and Latin Christianity from the end of the fourth century forward. This offense to our sensibilities and those of the Church fathers of the 5th century, has more to do with our Greek philosophical assumptions about the nature of angels than it does with scripture.

There are several areas in which the Church's ideas concerning angels are at major variance with the dominant view during the time of Christ and the Apostles.

In ancient times Christian and Jewish thinking allowed that angels are individually capable of falling from grace, are capable of carnality, and are limited in their knowledge of God’s plan. In a later era, the influence of Greek thinking and of Augustine on Christianity crystallized concepts that God's angels are pure spirit, impeccable and all-wise. The Bible neither supports this theology of angels which developed centuries after Christ, nor does the Bible contradict the views held in an earlier time which we find in the Book of Enoch.

These are three ways in which our thinking about angels has drifted since the time of the Jews and Christians in the first centuries. Taken together the ancients had a very different angelology than that of which St. Augustine would have likely approved.

Copyright © 2006-2013, R.I. Burns All rights reserved.

 

[SummaScriptura]

If you think angels who are spiritual beings, were having sex with women, I'm not the one with the credibility issue.

I realize it is commonly believed angels are pure spirit. That is a traditional belief of Christians. In the first century Israel, angels were not viewed in this way.

Acts 23:8 "For the Sadducees say that there is no resurrection, nor angel, nor spirit, but the Pharisees acknowledge them all."

Angels are distinguished from what are purely spirits. I understand an angel can be referred to as a spirit. This is to say they have a spirit and so are alive. In this sense all living things are 'spirits'.

Numbers 27:16, "Let the Lord, the God of the spirits of all flesh, appoint a man over the congregation"

In Gen. 18 (or thereabouts), angels are referred to as men and take meals with Abraham and later with Lot in his home.

 

[yeshuasavedme]

I realize it is commonly believed angels are pure spirit. That is a traditional belief of Christians. In the first century Israel, angels were not viewed in this way.

Acts 23:8 "For the Sadducees say that there is no resurrection, nor angel, nor spirit, but the Pharisees acknowledge them all."

Angels are distinguished from what are purely spirits. I understand an angel can be referred to as a spirit. This is to say they have a spirit and so are alive. In this sense all living things are 'spirits'.

Numbers 27:16, "Let the Lord, the God of the spirits of all flesh, appoint a man over the congregation"

In Gen. 18 (or thereabouts), angels are referred to as men and take meals with Abraham and later with Lot in his home.

In the Book of Tobit, the angel Raphael comes in a human being body and is a companion of Tobias for the journey back to the holy land to get Tobit's fortune from the person he deposited it with and to get a wife for Tobias.
So when Paul writes to" be careful to entertain strangers for many have entertained angels thereby", he is speaking from that knowledge also.
In the Genesis 18 passage angels ate butter, milk, bread, calf [and goat, in Jasher], with Abraham.

Enoch says saw holy angels who are a flame/pillar of fire but appear as humans when they wish. The angel who appeared to Samson's parents appeared as a man, but went up in a pillar of fire.

 

[Lion King]

I realize it is commonly believed angels are pure spirit. That is a traditional belief of Christians. In the first century Israel, angels were not viewed in this way.

Acts 23:8 "For the Sadducees say that there is no resurrection, nor angel, nor spirit, but the Pharisees acknowledge them all."

Angels are distinguished from what are purely spirits. I understand an angel can be referred to as a spirit. This is to say they have a spirit and so are alive. In this sense all living things are 'spirits'.

Numbers 27:16, "Let the Lord, the God of the spirits of all flesh, appoint a man over the congregation"

In Gen. 18 (or thereabouts), angels are referred to as men and take meals with Abraham and later with Lot in his home.

Angels are indeed "pure spirits" (Hebrews 1:14), but they often appear to human beings in the form of a man. It is said that all people who believe in Jesus Christ will be like angels after the resurrection of the dead. That is, all who are in Christ will have spiritual bodies like angels.

 

[yeshuasavedme]

Angels are indeed "pure spirits" (Hebrews 1:14), but they often appear to human beings in the form of a man. It is said that all people who believe in Jesus Christ will be like angels after the resurrection of the dead. That is, all who are in Christ will have spiritual bodies like angels.

Well, we certainly will be like the angels as to not marrying or giving in marriage and will be companions of them, but our bodies will be elementally dissolved and morphosed into our human being flesh and we will look like ourselves, but without corruption; and we will have a human being body like Jesus' body of incarnation, only glorified.

We will have every part of our own designed and written in the Book of Life human being body of flesh, with no corruption, and with the glory -not even a hair [follicle] will be missing, cause all our designed parts are numbered and nothing will be missing.

 

[Rev Randy]

If you think angels who are spiritual beings, were having sex with women, I'm not the one with the credibility issue.

Gotta agree with you there.

 

[GenemZ]

Sons of God - Sons of the righteous.

Daughters of men - Daughters of the wicked.

It should be noted that in scripture, the angels are called "stars of heaven" not "sons of God."

Wow! Then? Righteous men should marry wicked women! Their offspring will be giants and heroes of renown! Like Hercules! Why marry a righteous women? The offspring will be weak and puny in comparison! So.. Marrying a wicked person will produce superiority? No.

No man who was righteous was called a son of God at that time. Its only in the Church age. Because we are a new creation in Christ we now are also, along with the angels, to be called sons of God.

OT prophets were always called son of man. In the OT there were none more righteous than the prophets. Yet, they were never called sons of God.

Romans 8:14

For all who are being led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God.

Jesus is The Son of God. We are a son of God. And, the Greek indicates, children sons.
​

 

[Rev Randy]

Too much Arnold Murray in this thread for me.
Unsubscribing

 

[GenemZ]

If you think angels who are spiritual beings, were having sex with women, I'm not the one with the credibility issue.

People here need to learn their Bible better. Angels can materialize. They appear like men when they do.

Hebrews 13:2
​

Do not neglect to show hospitality to strangers, for by this some have entertained angels without knowing it.

​

They also can eat human food when they are materialized. Just look at Genesis 18! Abraham served a meal to the two angels who later went to Sodom. They ate!

Genesis 18:6-8
​

6 So Abraham hurried into the tent to Sarah. “Quick,” he said, “get three seahs of the finest flour and knead it and bake some bread.”
7 Then he ran to the herd and selected a choice, tender calf and gave it to a servant, who hurried to prepare it. He then brought some curds and milk and the calf that had been prepared, and set these before them. While they ate, he stood near them under a tree.

​

The real question is?.. Why did God create angels with the ability to procreate? Was his design with an intention? And, why were angels never given a female counterpart? (Satan's rebellion!)

Remember.. Jesus said that the angels in heaven are not given in marriage. He did not say *all* angels. Not all angels are in heaven.

There is more to it. But, first we need some more objective open minds here to discuss with.




Grace to you!

 

[Lion King]

Well, we certainly will be like the angels as to not marrying or giving in marriage and will be companions of them, but our bodies will be elementally dissolved and morphosed into our human being flesh and we will look like ourselves, but without corruption; and we will have a human being body like Jesus' body of incarnation, only glorified.

We will have every part of our own designed and written in the Book of Life human being body of flesh, with no corruption, and with the glory -not even a hair [follicle] will be missing, cause all our designed parts are numbered and nothing will be missing.

I believe Paul speaks clearly on what kind of bodies Christians will have after the resurrection in 1 Corinthians 15:

So also is the resurrection of the dead. The body is sown in corruption, it is raised in incorruption. 43 It is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness, it is raised in power. 44 It is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. 1 Corinthians 15:42-44

At the resurrection, our fleshly bodies will be transformed into spiritual bodies. Our glorified bodies will be like Jesus own resurrected body:

Then I turned to see the voice that spoke with me. And having turned I saw seven golden lampstands, 13 and in the midst of the seven lampstands One like the Son of Man, clothed with a garment down to the feet and girded about the chest with a golden band. 14 His head and hair were white like wool, as white as snow, and His eyes like a flame of fire; 15 His feet were like fine brass, as if refined in a furnace, and His voice as the sound of many waters; 16 He had in His right hand seven stars, out of His mouth went a sharp two-edged sword, and His countenance was like the sun shining in its strength. Revelation 1:12-16

 

[yeshuasavedme]

I believe Paul speaks clearly on what kind of bodies Christians will have after the resurrection in 1 Corinthians 15:

So also is the resurrection of the dead. The body is sown in corruption, it is raised in incorruption. 43 It is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness, it is raised in power. 44 It is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. 1 Corinthians 15:42-44

At the resurrection, our fleshly bodies will be transformed into spiritual bodies. Our glorified bodies will be like Jesus own resurrected body:

Then I turned to see the voice that spoke with me. And having turned I saw seven golden lampstands, 13 and in the midst of the seven lampstands One like the Son of Man, clothed with a garment down to the feet and girded about the chest with a golden band. 14 His head and hair were white like wool, as white as snow, and His eyes like a flame of fire; 15 His feet were like fine brass, as if refined in a furnace, and His voice as the sound of many waters; 16 He had in His right hand seven stars, out of His mouth went a sharp two-edged sword, and His countenance was like the sun shining in its strength. Revelation 1:12-16

I do not argue any of that, but the regenerated spiritual body is fully human flesh and is what Adam was first created to be before the fall, only Adam was not in the final glory stage but was created for that, and the body is forever, whether one is righteous and resurrected to glory or wicked and resurrected to damnation.

Jesus rose from the dead and ascended in the same body of New Man creation human being flesh that He is come in, at the incarnation, and that body was the same image Adam was created in, as Genesis 1:26-28 and Romans 5:14 say, and as all the Scriptures say when God says He created Adam in His own image, for it is the bodily image the Son of Man in heaven was to come in, as God in flesh and is come in; and it is fully human.
Our body of resurrection is what Adam had at the beginning, for that is what the LORD came incarnate in, only without the glory, but sinless and incorruptible as second Man.
And angels look like human beings when they come to minister -only angels can also appear in other forms..



Jesus promised we will not lose a hair of our head in the resurrection.

 

[yeshuasavedme]

People here need to learn their Bible better. Angels can materialize. They appear like men when they do.

Hebrews 13:2
​

Do not neglect to show hospitality to strangers, for by this some have entertained angels without knowing it.

​

They also can eat human food when they are materialized. Just look at Genesis 18! Abraham served a meal to the two angels who later went to Sodom. They ate!

Genesis 18:6-8
​

6 So Abraham hurried into the tent to Sarah. “Quick,” he said, “get three seahs of the finest flour and knead it and bake some bread.”
7 Then he ran to the herd and selected a choice, tender calf and gave it to a servant, who hurried to prepare it. He then brought some curds and milk and the calf that had been prepared, and set these before them. While they ate, he stood near them under a tree.

​

The real question is?.. Why did God create angels with the ability to procreate? Was his design with an intention? And, why were angels never given a female counterpart? (Satan's rebellion!)

Remember.. Jesus said that the angels in heaven are not given in marriage. He did not say *all* angels. Not all angels are in heaven.

There is more to it. But, first we need some more objective open minds here to discuss with.




Grace to you!

Angels could not procreate. They had no seed in their loins. To get offspring, they took their own stem cells and gene spliced the Adam wives eggs, and got offspring that way.
They did fornicate because they had male organs in the bodies they could appear in, but they were not created to multiply their kind with seed within themselves; and the deed they did by splicing genes was against the Law of God and brought damnation on them forever.

What they did when they gene spliced was to put within the eggs of their Adam wives their own spirit which built bodies using the Adam genetic information mixed with the genetic information of their bodies they could appear in; and by their own spirit, those bodies were built.

For that reason, their offspring were damned as bastards -illegitimate . That is what the term bastard means in God's eyes.
BTW: the final man of sin is called a bastard in the ancient writings, and all Adam had God as a father by creation and all Adam is the direct creation of God who made them as seed in the loins of the first Adam and wrote all their parts and numbered their days in the Book of Life.
No Adam seed come to fruit is ever called a bastard by God, but the nephilim are truly illegitimate and damned. For the reason their bodies were got unlawfully, they will never get those bodies back and cannot be redeemed.

All Adam, OTOH, will rise in their own bodies, whether to eternal Life and glory or eternal death in the Lake of Fire because Jesus ransomed their bodies from the first death and they, by their own choosing to reject His Salvation, then will be cast away in their own bodies into the Lake of Fire. They are then called never dying worms, because they can never be changed to be a son of God and glorified.

Today is the day of Salvation for all the sons of Adam. While it is today, He is calling every one of us to come to Him. The choice is ours to seek Him who calls and who died to ransom us, or to be forever cast aways; but He that seeks finds, and He will not cast away anyone who comes to Him.