What did Paul preach to the Corinthians?

[janxharris]

This is why limited atonement isn't incompatible with Arminianism. But for some reason they prefer that Christ died for reprobates in hell, even to the point that Christ came into the world and died for people the Father already condemned long before Christ was ever born.

Acts 13:38 & 46
“Therefore, my friends, I want you to know that through Jesus the forgiveness of sins is proclaimed to you." (Said to a synagogue of Jews and Gentiles).

Then Paul and Barnabas answered them boldly: “We had to speak the word of God to you first. Since you reject it and do not consider yourselves worthy of eternal life, we now turn to the Gentiles.

The forgiveness of sins was available for all men without exception. That includes those that end up in hell.

 

[Hammster]

I'll ask again:
Would you say to a crowd of unbelievers:
On the third day, Christ rose again from the dead, according to the scriptures. What glorious good news this is indeed folks!

and then not proceed to qualify what you have just said? If you would actually qualify it, how would you word it?

It doesn't matter what I would say. We are talking about what Paul said and to whom.

You told them that, 'Christ died for sinners...you're a sinner'. They think Christ died for them. They think that they can put their faith in Christ - but we all know that, if forced to, you would have to admit that it is possible that Christ did not die for them and they have no access to salvation.

If they put their faith in Christ, we know that they are one of the sinners Christ died for.

Hammster - this gospel that you preach - though you may not intend it to be - is disingenuous.

I preach the gospel of the bible. I'm sorry that you think it's disingenuous. You should repent of that.

And the scripture where Paul, or anyone for that matter, guards against this is?

Remember, Paul said 'this is what we preach, and this is what you believed in.'

And once again, you've avoided answering my question.

 

[Hammster]

Your theology demands that you in fact do correct me. Why do you disagree?

I'm correcting you now. But I wouldn't in front of him. It's not your words or mine that will regenerate him. The Spirit can use a poorly presented gospel.

 

[Hammster]

Yes - Christ takes away the sin of the world.

What part of what I said, if he believed it, would not get him saved?

 

[janxharris]

1) Why? You want clear statements from Paul to the effect of Calvinism but provide nothing of the sort for Arminianism.

Acts 13:38 & 46
“Therefore, my friends, I want you to know that through Jesus the forgiveness of sins is proclaimed to you." (Said to a synagogue of Jews and Gentiles).

Then Paul and Barnabas answered them boldly: “We had to speak the word of God to you first. Since you reject it and do not consider yourselves worthy of eternal life, we now turn to the Gentiles.

1 Corinthians 15:11b
This is what we preach, and this is what you believed.

You assume Paul and his audience are Arminians working from the same set of givens that you work from, but assuming they hold to a biblical concept of what atonement is, they're not going to be confused about who atonement is for if Paul says it's for them.

?

2) There are hundreds of clear statements in scripture about the efficacy of atonement.

Here are thirteen instances of atonement being the forgiveness or cleansing of sin.
Lev 4:20 Lev 4:26 Lev 4:31 Lev 4:35 Lev 5:10 Lev 5:13 Lev 5:16 Lev 5:18 Lev 6:7 Lev 10:7 Lev 14:20 Lev 19:22 Num 15:28

Here's one where Aaron has to rush to the Altar to atone quickly in order to stop God's wrath.
Num 16:46

Here sins are placed on the scapegoat's head, and when he is driven off into the wilderness, he takes their iniquity away with them.
Lev 16:20-22

So Jesus' sacrifice was unnecessary?

Acts 13:39
Through him everyone who believes is set free from every sin, a justification you were not able to obtain under the law of Moses.

And, of course, Isaiah 53.

Yes, all men without exception.

 

[Hammster]

Acts 13:38 & 46
“Therefore, my friends, I want you to know that through Jesus the forgiveness of sins is proclaimed to you." (Said to a synagogue of Jews and Gentiles).

Then Paul and Barnabas answered them boldly: “We had to speak the word of God to you first. Since you reject it and do not consider yourselves worthy of eternal life, we now turn to the Gentiles.

The forgiveness of sins was available for all men without exception. That includes those that end up in hell.

Why do you change what they said? Where did they say that forgiveness was available to all men without exception?

 

[Hammster]

Yes, all men without exception.

Isaiah 53 does not say or imply all men without exception.

 

[janxharris]

It doesn't matter what I would say. We are talking about what Paul said and to whom.

I would say it but you refuse to say either way.

If they put their faith in Christ, we know that they are one of the sinners Christ died for.

And if they don't then they were mislead. You have dodged my point.

You told them that, 'Christ died for sinners...you're a sinner'. They think Christ died for them. They think that they can put their faith in Christ - but we all know that, if forced to, you would have to admit that it is possible that Christ did not die for them and they have no access to salvation.​

I preach the gospel of the bible. I'm sorry that you think it's disingenuous. You should repent of that.

Repent of what?

 

[janxharris]

I'm correcting you now. But I wouldn't in front of him. It's not your words or mine that will regenerate him. The Spirit can use a poorly presented gospel.

Right, finally it is established that the gospel you preach is different to that which Arminians preach.

 

[janxharris]

Why do you change what they said? Where did they say that forgiveness was available to all men without exception?

Therefore, my friends, I want you to know that through Jesus the forgiveness of sins is proclaimed to you.

In verse 46, Paul defines 'you' to be Gentiles. Where does Paul limit the proclamation of the forgiveness of sins? Which verse?

Proclaimed to all men without exception.

 

[Hammster]

I would say it but you refuse to say either way.

It doesn't matter what you'd say, either. It matters what Paul said and to whom.

And if they don't then they were mislead. You have dodged my point.

You told them that, 'Christ died for sinners...you're a sinner'. They think Christ died for them. They think that they can put their faith in Christ - but we all know that, if forced to, you would have to admit that it is possible that Christ did not die for them and they have no access to salvation.​

Christ died for sinners. What part of that is misleading?

Repent of what?

You said the gospel was disingenuous.

 

[janxharris]

Isaiah 53 does not say or imply all men without exception.

3He was despised and rejected by mankind,
a man of suffering, and familiar with pain.
Like one from whom people hide their faces
he was despised, and we held him in low esteem.
4Surely he took up our pain
and bore our suffering,
yet we considered him punished by God,
stricken by him, and afflicted.
5But he was pierced for our transgressions,
he was crushed for our iniquities;
the punishment that brought us peace was on him,
and by his wounds we are healed.
6We all, like sheep, have gone astray,
each of us has turned to our own way;
and the Lord has laid on him
the iniquity of us all.

 

[Hammster]

Right, finally it is established that the gospel you preach is different to that which Arminians preach.

Finally? When was that ever in doubt?

 

[Hammster]

Therefore, my friends, I want you to know that through Jesus the forgiveness of sins is proclaimed to you.

In verse 46, Paul defines 'you' to be Gentiles. Where does Paul limit the proclamation of the forgiveness of sins? Which verse?

Proclaimed to all men without exception.

So Paul meant the forgiveness of EVERYONE'S sins was proclaimed?

 

[Hammster]

3He was despised and rejected by mankind,
a man of suffering, and familiar with pain.
Like one from whom people hide their faces
he was despised, and we held him in low esteem.
4Surely he took up our pain
and bore our suffering,
yet we considered him punished by God,
stricken by him, and afflicted.
5But he was pierced for our transgressions,
he was crushed for our iniquities;
the punishment that brought us peace was on him,
and by his wounds we are healed.
6We all, like sheep, have gone astray,
each of us has turned to our own way;
and the Lord has laid on him
the iniquity of us all.

*gasp*. Jesus was rejected by mankind? Say it ain't so.

But the passage doesn't say that he died for mankind. Who was Isaiah writing to? Don't you think that would dictate the meaning of the personal pronouns?

 

[guuila]

It is good news that every man has access to eternal life.

Correction: in this case had access. God looked into time and saw this guy would totally blow it. Then God created him knowing full well he'd go to hell. So you need to be honest and say "He HAD access." That is unless you're an Open Theist. Now he's alive, going to hell, and can't possibly do anything else. He has no hope. I guess you have the same problem the Calvinists do, eh?

 

[guuila]

You assume that the 'called' are unbelievers unto belief.

Romans 8
26In the same way, the Spirit helps us in our weakness. We do not know what we ought to pray for, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us through wordless groans. 27And he who searches our hearts knows the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes for God’s people in accordance with the will of God.

28And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose. 29For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters. 30And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.​

In verse 28, Paul is talking about believers called to a 'his purpose'. Paul was talking about believers in the previous verses, and how the Spirit intercedes 'for God's people' even when they do not know what to pray for. He continues this theme in v. 28. In v. 30 the 'called' follows those that God foreknew and predestined (to be conformed to Christ-likeness).

I'm not assuming anything. I'm simply reading the verse to you bro. Those whom He called, he also justified. Are you saying 100% of humanity is justified? Because earlier you told us 100% of humanity is called.

 

[guuila]

Acts 13:38 & 46
“Therefore, my friends, I want you to know that through Jesus the forgiveness of sins is proclaimed to you." (Said to a synagogue of Jews and Gentiles).

Then Paul and Barnabas answered them boldly: “We had to speak the word of God to you first. Since you reject it and do not consider yourselves worthy of eternal life, we now turn to the Gentiles.

The forgiveness of sins was available for all men without exception. That includes those that end up in hell.

Nothing you said here even remotely addresses what I said about limited atonement being compatible with Arminianism.

 

[guuila]

Maybe one of these days we'll find out how the Amorites knew about Jesus.

 

[Charis kai Dunamis]

The atonement for sin that Christ made on the cross was available for every single person. That is good news.

So the atonement was made available for every single person. Was the atonement ever actually made for anyone?

Therefore you believe in a limited atonement as much as I do, maybe more... And I quote:

Let there be no misunderstanding at this point. The Arminian limits the atonement as certainly as does the Calvinist. The Calvinist limits the extent of it in that he says it does not apply to all persons...while the Arminian limits the power of it, for he says that in itself it does not actually save anybody. The Calvinist limits it quantitatively, but not qualitatively; the Arminian limits it qualitatively, but not quantitatively. For the Calvinist it is like a narrow bridge that goes all the way across the stream; for the Arminian it is like a great wide bridge that goes only half-way across. As a matter of fact, the Arminian places more severe limitations on the work of Christ than does the Calvinist.

One question:
Is the intercessory work of Christ as our High Priest a separate work apart from His death on the cross as the sacrificial lamb?