Romans 9

[bling]

You do not seem to understand how the Jewish worldview understood the potter and clay analogy. God was not the determinist who acted without human response and responsibility. God's method started in the Garden of Genesis 2 and it will not change throughout human history.

That's what the potter and clay analogy teaches, but a Western worldview wants to make it mean a deterministic God, but Jeremiah 18 makes it clear that that is not how Yahweh understands his actions in human history, whether on nations or individuals.

Oz

Again we are not arguing what Jeremiah said, we are in agreement with the interpretation of Jeremiah and I do not know why you assume the “Western worldview” is contrary to this, but some hyper-Calvinist would be.

You keep talking about the Potter and the clay analogy like that is the exact same analogy Paul was using, but Paul uses a different Potter vessel analogy that is directed to individuals (not the Israel nation) and has the completion of two different vessels (not just the incomplete one lump of clay still being formed).

Can we start by agreeing on at least some things?:

God created you (made you) from birth with some things you cannot change: Your parents, being a male, where you were born, and being a gentile.

Some people complain to God about the way God created them: their parents, where they were born, their wealth, and their nationality.

The Jews (even today and during the first century) are “proud” of their heritage, their nationality, and the moral life they are called to live.

When it comes to salvation it does not matter in the things God chose for you: your sex, your nationality, your parents, your position in life, and if you are or are not a Jew.

Can we at least agree on these things?

 

[shturt678]

Is Exodus 5:2 a fulfillment of Exodus 4:21?

Ex. 4:21 And the LORD said to Moses, “When you go back to Egypt, see that you do before Pharaoh all the miracles that I have put in your power. But I will harden his heart, so that he will not let the people go.

So Moses goes to Pharaoh and says:

Ex. 5:1 “Thus says the LORD, the God of Israel, ‘Let my people go, that they may hold a feast to me in the wilderness.’”

And Pharaoh responds:

Ex. 5:2 “Who is the LORD, that I should obey his voice and let Israel go? I do not know the LORD, and moreover, I will not let Israel go.”

Why did Pharaoh not let the people go?

Hint: it's in blue.

Sequence of events, off the top, only after the Pharaoh hardened his own heart, eg, Rom.9:21.

Just ol' old soft Jack

btw as in today's time, if someone has the Truth on this thread, although the majority will obviously reject that Truth (IIThess.2:10b), then God will initiate IIThess.2:11, 12 due to our hardened hearts now, ie, this moment!

Don't be that concerned I don't have that Truth.

 

[Charis kai Dunamis]

Sequence of events, off the top, only after the Pharaoh hardened his own heart, eg, Rom.9:21.

Where is it said before Ex. 5:2 that Pharaoh hardened his own heart?

 

[shturt678]

Where is it said before Ex. 5:2 that Pharaoh hardened his own heart?

Where is my brother Oz when I need him - lol with him, ie, have no works before me, however will give it my best shot. The O.T. prophecies, ie, concepts, do not rule any interpretation of the N.T., ie, the concepts in the N.T. are interpreted contextually in themselves where the O.T. sheds light, eg, Exod.5:2 or etc.

My point: Rom.9:21 or so with the one true interpretation unveils the enigma attached to the "hardening issue," where IIThess.2:10-12 is a good example that God is the same today by hardening ("error's working") those today that do not have an agape of the Truth. God doesn't harden those to have a non-agape for the Truth, but only after they have no agape. No donkey before the cart routine.

Seriously, hope this helps?

Just ol' old Jack's view, ie, my personal view

 

[Charis kai Dunamis]

Where is my brother Oz when I need him - lol with him, ie, have no works before me, however will give it my best shot. The O.T. prophecies, ie, concepts, do not rule any interpretation of the N.T., ie, the concepts in the N.T. are interpreted contextually in themselves where the O.T. sheds light, eg, Exod.5:2 or etc.

My point: Rom.9:21 or so with the one true interpretation unveils the enigma attached to the "hardening issue," where IIThess.2:10-12 is a good example that God is the same today by hardening ("error's working") those today that do not have an agape of the Truth. God doesn't harden those to have a non-agape for the Truth, but only after they have no agape. No donkey before the cart routine.

Seriously, hope this helps?

Just ol' old Jack's view, ie, my personal view

We both have presuppositions there so that doesn't help, for example, Paul in Romans 8 has already stated that those in the flesh do not desire to please God and cannot even do so... therefore your statement above, that God doesn't harden people until they have no love for the truth, makes now real sense, since, apart from the grace of God, they would never love the truth of the Gospel anyways.

Further, whether it was you or Oz [or both], you were arguing that Pharaoh had hardened his heart before God hardened his heart, based on Ex 7:

However, that fact is that it was Pharaoh who hardened his own heart at first (e.g. Ex 7:13; 8:15). It was God who later hardened Pharaoh's heart ( (see Ex 9:12; 10:1, 20, 27)

Now when given evidence that God hardened Pharaoh's heart first as per 4:21 read into 5:1-2, you are seemingly saying it doesn't matter because the NT says otherwise.

So basically, try one form of argumentation, and when that is refuted, back out and start another form.

And we could go even further regarding 7:13 and say again that it was first said to happen by God in 7:3. So 4:21 shows God as the cause of 5:2, and 7:3 shows God as the cause of 7:13.

 

[shturt678]

We both have presuppositions there so that doesn't help, for example, Paul in Romans 8 has already stated that those in the flesh do not desire to please God and cannot even do so...

Rom.8:8, 9 Have my works before me, from myself and C.Tr.885, 12 & 887,18, ie, unless he be enlightened and controlled by God's Spriit contextually. All depraved from the womb (Ps.58:3). Have to watch for those little conjunctions, ie, "unless."

therefore your statement above, that God doesn't harden people until they have no love for the truth, makes now real sense, since, apart from the grace of God, they would never love the truth of the Gospel anyways.

God never did nor will harden anyone that never heard the Gospel Truth, ie, nowhere in the Scriptures does God state what He will do with those that never did bump into the Truth, ie, from me personally: Eg, God does not harden any of the world's religions no matter how far in left field they are untill they meet the Gospel Truth, one by one individually, ie, only until then can the sins be passed on to their generations even. Have to bump into the Truth before God determines whether to harden, early deaths, level in hell, and so on. Modern Lutherans can't even get this so cannot expect you.

Further, whether it was you or Oz [or both], you were arguing that Pharaoh had hardened his heart before God hardened his heart, based on Ex 7:



Now when given evidence that God hardened Pharaoh's heart first as per 4:21 read into 5:1-2, you are seemingly saying it doesn't matter because the NT says otherwise.

So basically, try one form of argumentation, and when that is refuted, back out and start another form.

And we could go even further regarding 7:13 and say again that it was first said to happen by God in 7:3. So 4:21 shows God as the cause of 5:2, and 7:3 shows God as the cause of 7:13.

Let's work Rom.9:17,etc. back to Exod, ie, with you my friend.

Just ol' old unpopular Jack

 

[Charis kai Dunamis]

Rom.8:8, 9 Have my works before me, from myself and C.Tr.885, 12 & 887,18, ie, unless he be enlightened and controlled by God's Spriit contextually. All depraved from the womb (Ps.58:3). Have to watch for those little conjunctions, ie, "unless."

Not sure what this has to do with my point.

God never did nor will harden anyone that never heard the Gospel Truth, ie, nowhere in the Scriptures does God state what He will do with those that never did bump into the Truth, ie, from me personally: Eg, God does not harden any of the world's religions no matter how far in left field they are untill they meet the Gospel Truth, one by one individually, ie, only until then can the sins be passed on to their generations even. Have to bump into the Truth before God determines whether to harden, early deaths, level in hell, and so on. Modern Lutherans can't even get this so cannot expect you.

Isn't this just cyclical? I am going to tell you that God hardened Pharaoh without ever giving him the Gospel truth, and that I have evidence of it from Exodus... Then, instead of interpreting the Exodus story to show I am incorrect, you will jump to the New Testament and read it back into the Exodus story.

Let's work Rom.9:17,etc. back to Exod, ie, with you my friend. Just ol' old unpopular Jack

So you want to look specifically at Rom. 9:17?

 

[Jack Terrence]

God never did nor will harden anyone that never heard the Gospel Truth

God may reprobate men who had only the revelation of God in nature (Romans 1).

 

[Jack Terrence]

You keep talking about the Potter and the clay analogy like that is the exact same analogy Paul was using, but Paul uses a different Potter vessel analogy that is directed to individuals (not the Israel nation) and has the completion of two different vessels (not just the incomplete one lump of clay still being formed).

Oz has been told this several times now and he will not listen.

 

[OzSpen]

Oz has been told this several times now and he will not listen.

And I have been stating what the potter and clay analogy meant in a Jewish worldview, the one from which Paul came when he wrote of it in Romans 9. He was not talking about a deterministic God. He was the God of potter and clay of Jeremiah 18 - that's the Jewish worldview understanding of God's action.

And God gave us this understanding of God's sovereignty and human responsibility way back in Genesis 2. God hasn't changed his view.

 

[shturt678]

God may reprobate men who had only the revelation of God in nature (Romans 1).

If one goes with Calvin regarding Rom.1:20, ie, forget the latin, then results in the cognition of God, ie, a means of grace.

If one goes with Lutherism and some older Baptist then more of a natural divine relvelation. Paul is not speaking of the final judgment.

Again, one has to meet God's means of grace, ie, including unborn babies, to the degree He feels is enough (IIThess.2:10b) before anykind of hardening is to come to pass. Mr. Calvin misunderstood this one. Personally from me.

Just ol' old understanding Jack

 

[Jack Terrence]

Again, one has to meet God's means of grace, ie, including unborn babies, to the degree He feels is enough (IIThess.2:10b) before anykind of hardening is to come to pass.

But this is not what you had originally said. You originally said this:

God never did nor will harden anyone that never heard the Gospel Truth

I appreciate you adjusting your view though you are still missing the mark.

 

[shturt678]

But this is not what you had originally said. You originally said this:

I appreciate you adjusting your view though you are still missing the mark.

Since I do have a healthy hourly fear of God and refutable, doesn't "One has to meet God's means of grace (Gospel's Truth)" = "Gospel's Truth" thus no adjustment necessary. What am I missing?

Just ol' old 'missing link' Jack, your friend

 

[Jack Terrence]

Since I do have a healthy hourly fear of God and refutable, doesn't "One has to meet God's means of grace (Gospel's Truth)" = "Gospel's Truth" thus no adjustment necessary. What am I missing?

Just ol' old 'missing link' Jack, your friend

You originally said that one must meet "Gospel truth" before hardening may occur. Then I showed you that God reprobates men who have never heard the Gospel, who had only the revelation of God in nature. Then you said that one has to meet God's means of grace before hardening may occur.

This seemed to me to be a concession that "Gospel truth" is not all there is and so you made an adjustment accordingly. Men who have never heard the Gospel cannot be hardened by it.

 

[shturt678]

You originally said that one must meet "Gospel truth" before hardening may occur. Then I showed you that God reprobates men who have never heard the Gospel, who had only the revelation of God in nature. Then you said that one has to meet God's means of grace before hardening may occur.

This seemed to me to be a concession that "Gospel truth" is not all there is and so you made an adjustment accordingly. Men who have never heard the Gospel cannot be hardened by it.

One thing that attracted me to non-modern Lutheranism, ie, pre-1930, is I can be in error, and admit making some kind of concession being successfully refuted (placing myself wayyy belowww IITim.3:16). Thank you again for clarifying. Just to be lucid, God's means of grace ("born again") = God's Gospel ("born again").

Thank you again, just ol' old Jack