Romans 9

[Charis kai Dunamis]

If Pharaoh had received God's warnings and acted on them, his heart would not have been hardened.

Ignoring 4:21!!! What more can be said???

It is an indicative statement, nothing subjunctive about it:

But I will harden his heart, so that he will not let the people go

 

[OzSpen]

You're missing the point. God says He will harden Pharoah's heart before anything has ever happened regarding Pharaoh hardening his own heart. Anything regarding Pharaoh's heart being hardened after should then necessarily be read in light of the prior context; Pharoah's hardening is not apart from God's initial purpose to do so and cannot be interpreted separately from it [like you are attempting to do]. If Pharaoh is said to harden his own heart anywhere in the text after the fact, it cannot be isolated apart from Exodus 4:21. Further, Paul takes this position in Romans 9:18 and defeats your objection in v19 and on.

Exodus 4:21 cannot be read in isolation from the other Scriptures I gave where Pharaoh hardened his own heart. God is not the determinist on Pharaoh, just like he is not the determinist in Romans 9. He's the potter-and-clay God who acts according to the analogy given in Jeremiah 18. God does not act without allowing free will action of human beings.

He started this Jewish worldview in Genesis 2 with 'man'.

Oz

 

[Hammster]

But that is technically further away from the real issue. It shouldn't matter whether the Scriptures say God did it or Pharaoh did it after the fact. If God said He would harden Pharoah's heart before Pharaoh had actually hardened his own heart, then all occurrences of the hardening of Pharaoh's heart should be read in that context. If Pharaoh is said to harden his own heart, it's because God said He would harden it first, and God is not apart from it. To read it an other way is to chop up the text and read each passage in isolation, apart from 4:21 and the declaration of God which mentioned nothing of "judicial" hardening. It is an idea entirely foreign to the text.

I'd go even further and say that it doesn't matter when Pharaoh hardened his heart. The text is clear that God did harden his heart. That's all that matters.

 

[Charis kai Dunamis]

Exodus 4:21 cannot be read in isolation from the other Scriptures I gave where Pharaoh hardened his own heart. God is not the determinist on Pharaoh, just like he is not the determinist in Romans 9. He's the potter-and-clay God who acts according to the analogy given in Jeremiah 18. God does not act without allowing free will action of human beings.

He started this Jewish worldview in Genesis 2 with 'man'.

Oz

It's not read in isolation. It's read as causative because of the nature of the statement, regarding when and how it was made. You have yet to actually address the nature of God's statement in light of the fact that Pharaoh is not said to have done anything which would require God to pronounce a judgment of hardening upon him. Further, the whole purpose of Pharaoh's life was so God could say "I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth."

 

[Charis kai Dunamis]

I'd go even further and say that it doesn't matter when Pharaoh hardened his heart. The text is clear that God did harden his heart. That's all that matters.

Agreed.

 

[Jack Terrence]

Keil & Delitzsch's OT commentary, based on the Hebrew, does not agree with this New English Bible translation that you are promoting. K&D state regarding Ex 8:15,
'Though Jehovah had thus manifested Himself as the Almighty God and Lord of the creation, Pharaoh did not keep his promise; but when he saw that there was breathing-time ... relief from an overpowering pressure), literally, as soon as he "got air" he hardened his heart, so that he did not hearken to Moses and Aaron' (Keil & Delizsch n d. The Pentateuch, Eerdmans, p. 482).

Whether the language is 'obdurate' or 'hardened', the issue does not change. God did not make Pharaoh's heart obdurate/hardened without the free choice of Pharaoh hardening his own heart. We know that 'Pharaoh's heart was hardened' or 'grew hard' (Ex 7:13) the more that God pressured Pharaoh.

First, you failed to mention that I gave you the Hebrew text and showed you how the NEB is more in line with it. So, I did not give you the NEB by itself. Second, the NEB was produced by nearly forty Hebrew and Greek scholars.

If Pharaoh had received God's warnings and acted on them, his heart would not have been hardened.

God initiated the hardening. So, what you say CANNOT have been true initially. You cannot get away with robbing God of His total and absolute sovereignty. But this is what your theology does. Your theology keeps God in "check." I maintain that the three instances you reference which supposedly say that Pharoah hardened his own heart do NOT actually say this.

Look at the Interlinear in 9:34. You say that Pharoah hardend his own heart. But the Interlinear indicates that YHWH is acting upon Pharoah.

 

[shturt678]

The one true interpretation of Rom.9:14, 18 unlocks Exod.8

Just ol' old Jack

 

[Charis kai Dunamis]

Not sure if this helps, but I figure I will add it as a resource:

יָסַף occurs almost two hundred times, mostly in the Qal and Hiphil (six times in the Niphal). The LXX translates usually with προστίθεμαι. No cognate is found in Ugaritic.
A very common usage of ‏יָסַף is “to do again,” as in Gen 4:2, “And again, she gave birth to his brother Abel” (cf. 38:5). In the case of Abraham taking Keturah as wife, 25:1 states, “Now Abraham had taken another [lit. added or took again a] wife.” Sometimes, especially with a negative particle, it is translated “no more” as in the moving scene where Judah quotes Joseph, “Unless your youngest brother comes down with you, you shall see my face no more” (lit. you shall not add to; see 44:23).
The literal idea “to add” is clearly evident in Lev 27:13, 15, 19, 27 where repeatedly Moses writes about the person who makes a vow that “he shall add a fifth of the value” if he should wish to redeem an object or property. The case of Hezekiah also is to the point, where in response to his prayer, the Lord promises, “I will add fifteen years to your life” (Isa 38:5). Rachel, in naming her firstborn Joseph, prays, “May the Lord give me [lit. add to me] another son.” Both Isaiah and Rachel acknowledge that longevity and progeny are at the sovereign discretion of God. In this connection observe Prov 10:27, “The fear of the Lord prolongeth days.” See also 9:11.
There is a negative note in connection with יָסַף. This is the human ethical problem of sin. It is first encountered with Pharaoh, “But when Pharaoh saw that the rain and the hail and thunder had ceased, he sinned again (lit. he added to sin) and hardened his heart” (Ex 9:34). But this is the case even with the people of God, as the recurring phrase in Judges “and the children of Israel did evil again (lit. added to do evil) in the sight of the Lord” (3:12; 10:6; etc.). This heaping up of something need not be totally negative. Ps 71:14 quotes the psalmist as saying, “I will increase thy praise” or as KJV “and will yet praise thee more and more.”

 

[shturt678]

Not sure if this helps, but I figure I will add it as a resource:

Way above my paygrade, however really helped me, ie, have not bumped into his works for a long long time, ie, thank you.

Just ol' old Jack

 

[OzSpen]

Ignoring 4:21!!! What more can be said???

It is an indicative statement, nothing subjunctive about it:

But I will harden his heart, so that he will not let the people go

It is true that God predicted that he would harden Pharaoh's heart (Ex 4:21). However, that fact is that it was Pharaoh who hardened his own heart at first (e.g. Ex 7:13; 8:15). It was God who later hardened Pharaoh's heart ( (see Ex 9:12; 10:1, 20, 27).

Thee Hebrew word translated as 'hardened' is chazaq and can be used in the sense of 'strengthen' (see Judges 3:12; 16:28) or 'encourage' (as in Deut 1:38; 3:28). If the word has this understanding in Exodus, it would indicate that God strengthened/encouraged Pharaoh to implement Pharaoh's will against Israel.

We see a parallel passage to this kind of action in Romans 2:5, 'But because of your hard and impenitent heart, you are storing up wrath for yourself on the day of wrath when God's righteous judgment will be revealed' (ESV).

Who had the 'hard and impenitent heart'?

Oz

 

[OzSpen]

I'd go even further and say that it doesn't matter when Pharaoh hardened his heart. The text is clear that God did harden his heart. That's all that matters.

It does matter WHEN it happened according to Scripture. God predicted it in Ex 4:21, then Pharaoh hardened his heart, followed by God hardening Pharaoh's heart. That's the order in Scripture.

Don't you want to affirm the authority of Scripture in this regard?

 

[shturt678]

It is true that God predicted that he would harden Pharaoh's heart (Ex 4:21). However, that fact is that it was Pharaoh who hardened his own heart at first (e.g. Ex 7:13; 8:15). It was God who later hardened Pharaoh's heart ( (see Ex 9:12; 10:1, 20, 27).

Thee Hebrew word translated as 'hardened' is chazaq and can be used in the sense of 'strengthen' (see Judges 3:12; 16:28) or 'encourage' (as in Deut 1:38; 3:28). If the word has this understanding in Exodus, it would indicate that God strengthened/encouraged Pharaoh to implement Pharaoh's will against Israel.

We see a parallel passage to this kind of action in Romans 2:5, 'But because of your hard and impenitent heart, you are storing up wrath for yourself on the day of wrath when God's righteous judgment will be revealed' (ESV).

Who had the 'hard and impenitent heart'?

Oz

Keil confirms all the former, ie, p451 and also confirmed by the older Lutheran Commentaries regarding Rom.9:18.

Good job folks

Just ol' old Jack

 

[Charis kai Dunamis]

It is true that God predicted that he would harden Pharaoh's heart (Ex 4:21).

Yes it is true, which means it was apart from Pharaoh's action and therefore not judicial. For it to be judicial would mean that it would be reactionary; yet the edict to harden Pharaoh's heart was said before Pharaoh ever hardened his heart.

However, that fact is that it was Pharaoh who hardened his own heart at first (e.g. Ex 7:13; 8:15). It was God who later hardened Pharaoh's heart ( (see Ex 9:12; 10:1, 20, 27).

If this be the case, then please explain Ex 5:7-9 and Moses' recognition of God as the causal agent in 5:22.

Thee Hebrew word translated as 'hardened' is chazaq and can be used in the sense of 'strengthen' (see Judges 3:12; 16:28) or 'encourage' (as in Deut 1:38; 3:28). If the word has this understanding in Exodus, it would indicate that God strengthened/encouraged Pharaoh to implement Pharaoh's will against Israel.

We see a parallel passage to this kind of action in Romans 2:5, 'But because of your hard and impenitent heart, you are storing up wrath for yourself on the day of wrath when God's righteous judgment will be revealed' (ESV).

Who had the 'hard and impenitent heart'?

Oz

Maybe you ought to look at ALL of the lexical evidence, such as

קשׁה in 7:3 - "hard/stiff" necked [Neh 9:16, 17, 29; Jer 7:27; 17:23; 19:15; Deut 10:16; 2 Chr 30:8; 36:13; 2 Kgs 17:14; Prov. 29:1], hard of spirit [Deut 2:30], hard of heart [Ps 95:8; Ezekiel 3:7], hard of face [Ezek 2:4] and hard of the whole person [Is 48:4];

כבד in 8:28 - "heavy" [Is 6:10; Zech 7:11, 12]

חזק in 4:21 - "hard" [ Jer 5:3; Ezek 2:4; 3:7-9]

It does matter WHEN it happened according to Scripture. God predicted it in Ex 4:21, then Pharaoh hardened his heart, followed by God hardening Pharaoh's heart. That's the order in Scripture.

My question remains in reference to 5:22 when God is seen as causal by Moses.

Don't you want to affirm the authority of Scripture in this regard?

yes, of course.

 

[OzSpen]

Yes it is true, which means it was apart from Pharaoh's action and therefore not judicial. For it to be judicial would mean that it would be reactionary; yet the edict to harden Pharaoh's heart was said before Pharaoh ever hardened his heart.

The prediction that God would harden Pharaoh's heart was before the hardening happened (Ex 4:21).

Exodus 4 & 7 give some reasons why God would harden Pharaoh's heart after Pharaoh hardened his own heart.

When you leave out Pharaoh's responsibility in what he did to Israel and to God and in the hardening of his own heart, you leave out a valuable part of the biblical evidence and make God a determinist.

Since Genesis 2, we know that God gives human beings, starting with the first man, the ability to say yea or no to God. It started with God giving man the ability to affirm or reject the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. This God-given ability is affirmed throughout the OT and the NT.

The unchanging God has not changed his view on the need of human beings to respond to or reject God. A classical OT example is in Joshua 24:15,

But if serving the Lord seems undesirable to you, then choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve, whether the gods your ancestors served beyond the Euphrates, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you are living. But as for me and my household, we will serve the Lord.” (NIV, emphasis added)
​

From Genesis to Revelation, God has not changed his theology on the responsibility of human beings to respond to God's commands before He announces the final decision.

If God were the determinist, it would have been determined in Genesis 2. It wasn't.

Oz

 

[OzSpen]

Keil confirms all the former, ie, p451 and also confirmed by the older Lutheran Commentaries regarding Rom.9:18.

Good job folks

Just ol' old Jack

Do you have a couple of examples, translated into English, of what these older Lutheran Commentaries said regarding Rom 9:18?

I have R C H Lenski's NT Commentaries as a Lutheran and his commentary on Rom 9:18 is available online HERE.

Part of what Lenski said about 9:18 is that

'Ten times Exodus reports that Pharaoh hardened himself; then, only in consequence of this self-hardening, we read twn times that God hardened this self-hardened man.... The door of mercy is not shut at once on the self-hardened so that they crash into the locked door with a bang. We might rush to close it thus. God's mercy closes it gradually and is ready to open it wide again at the least show of repentance in answer to his mercy; and not until all the warnings of the gradually closing door are utterly in vain does the door sink regretfully into its lock.

In Exod. 4:21 the Lord tells Moses the final outcome: "I will harden his heart"; and "all those wonders" refers to all of them that Moses was to do before Pharaoh. After five plagues Pharaoh hardened his heart progressively: then after the sixth God's hardening sets in (Exod. 9:12). After the seventh it is again Pharaoh (Exod. 9:35); then it is God who hardened but now in complete tragedy (Exod. 10:20, 27: 11:10; 14:4,5). The history of his hardening certainly speaks for itself. Pharaoh wanted none of the mercy for himself and for his own nation and with all his might intended to block the plans of that mercy with regard to Israel. The case of the Jews was even worse, for all the mercy was covenanted to be theirs, and they did not only refuse it and crucify the Christ but intended to prevent all other men from receiving this mercy (Matt. 23:13)' (Lenski 1936:617).
​

In Christ,
Oz

Works consulted
Lenski, R C H 1936. Commentary on the New Testament: The interpretation of St. Paul's epistle to the Romans. Peabody, Massachusetts: Hendrickson Publishers (limited edition, based on 1936 Lutheran Book Concern; assigned 1945 to The Wartburg Press, assigned 1961 to Augsburg Publishing House).

 

[OzSpen]

If this be the case, then please explain Ex 5:7-9 and Moses' recognition of God as the causal agent in 5:22.

I find this to be such a basic question with a straight forward answer. The sovereign God of the universe causes many things to happen, but He does not do it without human involvement.

I write this on 22 November 2013, the 50th anniversary of the assassination of JFK. Was it God who deterministically caused it or was Lee Harvey Oswald involved in the cause?

Did God deterministically cause the September 11 2001 disaster in the USA or were human beings involved in the cause?

Did God deterministically cause the slaughter of Australian, New Zealand and other soldiers on the Gallipoli Peninsular on 25 April 1915 in World War I, or were soldiers and others the cause of the slaughter?

Did God deterministically cause the hardening of Pharaoh's heart or was Pharaoh involved in the cause of his own hardening?

Oz

 

[canisee]

Items I ponder to this day.

I do not have all the answers, that is for sure.

Take the major hurricane that hit the northeastern US
days before our election.

The right seemed to have a possible opportunity, then that devastation
and the media coverage, the governor of New Jersey and the
President embracing each other.............

Things I ponder.

 

[OzSpen]

First, you failed to mention that I gave you the Hebrew text and showed you how the NEB is more in line with it. So, I did not give you the NEB by itself. Second, the NEB was produced by nearly forty Hebrew and Greek scholars.

God initiated the hardening. So, what you say CANNOT have been true initially. You cannot get away with robbing God of His total and absolute sovereignty. But this is what your theology does. Your theology keeps God in "check." I maintain that the three instances you reference which supposedly say that Pharoah hardened his own heart do NOT actually say this.

Look at the Interlinear in 9:34. You say that Pharoah hardend his own heart. But the Interlinear indicates that YHWH is acting upon Pharoah.

There is a more recent revision of the NEB (New English Bible) in the REB (Revised English Bible). It is not regarded highly as a committee translation by scholars. Try the ESV, NASB, NIV, RSV, NRSV. See HERE.

 

[shturt678]

Do you have a couple of examples, translated into English, of what these older Lutheran Commentaries said regarding Rom 9:18?

I have R C H Lenski's NT Commentaries as a Lutheran and his commentary on Rom 9:18 is available online HERE.

Part of what Lenski said about 9:18 is that

'Ten times Exodus reports that Pharaoh hardened himself; then, only in consequence of this self-hardening, we read twn times that God hardened this self-hardened man.... The door of mercy is not shut at once on the self-hardened so that they crash into the locked door with a bang. We might rush to close it thus. God's mercy closes it gradually and is ready to open it wide again at the least show of repentance in answer to his mercy; and not until all the warnings of the gradually closing door are utterly in vain does the door sink regretfully into its lock.

In Exod. 4:21 the Lord tells Moses the final outcome: "I will harden his heart"; and "all those wonders" refers to all of them that Moses was to do before Pharaoh. After five plagues Pharaoh hardened his heart progressively: then after the sixth God's hardening sets in (Exod. 9:12). After the seventh it is again Pharaoh (Exod. 9:35); then it is God who hardened but now in complete tragedy (Exod. 10:20, 27: 11:10; 14:4,5). The history of his hardening certainly speaks for itself. Pharaoh wanted none of the mercy for himself and for his own nation and with all his might intended to block the plans of that mercy with regard to Israel. The case of the Jews was even worse, for all the mercy was covenanted to be theirs, and they did not only refuse it and crucify the Christ but intended to prevent all other men from receiving this mercy (Matt. 23:13)' (Lenski 1936:617).
​

In Christ,
Oz

Works consulted
Lenski, R C H 1936. Commentary on the New Testament: The interpretation of St. Paul's epistle to the Romans. Peabody, Massachusetts: Hendrickson Publishers (limited edition, based on 1936 Lutheran Book Concern; assigned 1945 to The Wartburg Press, assigned 1961 to Augsburg Publishing House).

Only Mr. Paul Kretzmann's along with non-Lutheran A.T. Robertson's Word Pictures, ie, rest are works such as Dictionaries, Lexicons, Commentaries, and Sermons in German not yet translated.

Just ol' old Jack

btw checked and they collaborate except my devil's advocate Mr. Simon Kistemaker's Commentary and the International Critical Commentary, and etc. that are in my larger library, and not quickly availble, ie, am curious?

 

[Charis kai Dunamis]

I find this to be such a basic question with a straight forward answer. The sovereign God of the universe causes many things to happen, but He does not do it without human involvement.

I write this on 22 November 2013, the 50th anniversary of the assassination of JFK. Was it God who deterministically caused it or was Lee Harvey Oswald involved in the cause?

Did God deterministically cause the September 11 2001 disaster in the USA or were human beings involved in the cause?

Did God deterministically cause the slaughter of Australian, New Zealand and other soldiers on the Gallipoli Peninsular on 25 April 1915 in World War I, or were soldiers and others the cause of the slaughter?

Did God deterministically cause the hardening of Pharaoh's heart or was Pharaoh involved in the cause of his own hardening?

Oz

Is Exodus 5:2 a fulfillment of Exodus 4:21?

Ex. 4:21 And the LORD said to Moses, “When you go back to Egypt, see that you do before Pharaoh all the miracles that I have put in your power. But I will harden his heart, so that he will not let the people go.

So Moses goes to Pharaoh and says:

Ex. 5:1 “Thus says the LORD, the God of Israel, ‘Let my people go, that they may hold a feast to me in the wilderness.’”

And Pharaoh responds:

Ex. 5:2 “Who is the LORD, that I should obey his voice and let Israel go? I do not know the LORD, and moreover, I will not let Israel go.”

Why did Pharaoh not let the people go?

Hint: it's in blue.