Historic Protestantism vs Modern Protestantism

[Merrily]

Might this be of interest?
MennoDiscuss.com • View topic - Anabaptist Timeline

 

[Albion]

Ah, I see. Hmm, in that case the Old World vs New World thing. So Europe (plus Northern Africa and Western Asia) vs the Americas. What do you think of that?

Honestly, I never think of it that way. That doesn't mean that your approach isn't good, just that I customarily look at historical and theological connections and comparisons. So that suggests that I should wait to see what you have in mind.

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

I think Methodism could be called "transitional" Pietistic Lutheranism could be called that as well IMO.

Methodism would be transitional because they came out of Anglicansim, began very catholic, but which in and of itself through the 39 articles inherited a bit more than a hint of pietistic, Philipist Crypto-Calvinist Lutheranism.

In many areas, Canada for one, Methodism devolved into Secular Humanistic universalist organizations such as the United Church of Canada and the United Church of Christ in the US.

Pietistic Lutheranism was a result of Philipist concessions, which were a response to Crypto-Calvinism. In Europe, Canada, and the US, these non Confessional Lutheran Synods have also devolved in much the same way (becoming secular humanistic and either Christian universalist or just plain universalist (or almost Unitarian in some cases) in nature.

 

[Albion]

Methodism would be transitional because they came out of Anglicansim, began very catholic, but which in and of itself through the 39 articles inherited a bit more than a hint of pietistic, Philipist Crypto-Calvinist Lutheranism.

In many areas, Canada for one, Methodism devolved into Secular Humanistic universalist organizations such as the United Church of Canada and the United Church of Christ in the US.

The UCC was a merger of the Congregationalist Church and the Evangelical and Reformed Church. Therefore, there's some Wesleyanism in the UCC, but the great majority and the mainline of Methodism came together in the United Methodist Church.

 

[MoreCoffee]

In Australia all of the Methodist denominations united with most of the Presbyterians and almost all of the Congregational denominations to form the Uniting Church in Australia.

The Uniting Church in Australia is the third largest Christian body in Australia (the two larger ones are Catholic and Anglican).

 

[WisdomTree]

In Australia the all of the Methodist denominations united with most of the Presbyterians and almost all of the Congregational denominations to form the Uniting Church in Australia.

The Uniting Church in Australia is the third largest Christian body in Australia (the two larger ones are Catholic and Anglican).

Oh wow, they've actually succeeded what the early reformers failed to do. Though I must question the legitimacy of such "union".

 

[MoreCoffee]

Oh wow, they've actually succeeded what the early reformers failed to do. Though I must question the legitimacy of such "union".

It seems to be working okay; they united some time around 1977 and they haven't split apart since. I am told that they are a very broad church in so far as theological expression goes - ranging from quite conservative fundamentalist-like views to near-agnostic-christian views. Some say it takes all sorts to make a world, perhaps that is also applicable to a uniting-church that tries to unify such a wide variety of traditions in a single uniting-organisation.

 

[WisdomTree]

It seems to be working okay; they united some time around 1977 and they haven't split apart since. I am told that they are a very broad church in so far as theological expression goes - ranging from quite conservative fundamentalist-like views to near-agnostic-christian views. Some say it talks all sorts to make a world, perhaps that is also applicable to a uniting-church that tries to unify such a wide variety of traditions in a single uniting-organisation.

That's quite insane... I wonder if we have any of those in NZ?

 

[WisdomTree]

Add "Emergent" to Modern?

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

In Australia all of the Methodist denominations united with most of the Presbyterians and almost all of the Congregational denominations to form the Uniting Church in Australia.

The Uniting Church in Australia is the third largest Christian body in Australia (the two larger ones are Catholic and Anglican).

Same here with the United Chruch of Canada; however, Presbyterians in Ontario and further East did not. Eastern Canada tends towards conservatism. I believe that they are the largest "denomination" in Canada.

Oh wow, they've actually succeeded what the early reformers failed to do. Though I must question the legitimacy of such "union".

Yes, but they could only do it with everyone compromising their doctrine; it is now a personal free for all here, and most congregations, their services are virtually secular humanist. The building is full of people with personal and divergent beliefs. They try to cause offence to any man, but in light of Scripture, I would imagine that it may be offensive to God.

It seems to be working okay; they united some time around 1977 and they haven't split apart since. I am told that they are a very broad church in so far as theological expression goes - ranging from quite conservative fundamentalist-like views to near-agnostic-christian views. Some say it talks all sorts to make a world, perhaps that is also applicable to a uniting-church that tries to unify such a wide variety of traditions in a single uniting-organisation.

I think ours happened in the 40's, so they have had longer to get more liberal and more Unitarian in doctrine.

That's quite insane... I wonder if we have any of those in NZ?

I would hope you can avoid such.

(This is my personal opinion, and only reflects the opinions held by the majority (but not all) of Confessional Lutherans in Canada).

 

[WisdomTree]

So within the Reformed group, would it be accurate to say that Presbyterians are "historic" whereas the Congregationalists are "modern"?

 

[Merrily]

So within the Reformed group, would it be accurate to say that Presbyterians are "historic" whereas the Congregationalists are "modern"?

Depends on how 'modern' you mean.
The Independents ( Congregationalists and Cromwell's denomination) dominated English church polity 1649 through to 1659.

 

[Gxg (G²)]

Methodism would be transitional because they came out of Anglicansim, began very catholic, but which in and of itself through the 39 articles inherited a bit more than a hint of pietistic, Philipist Crypto-Calvinist Lutheranism.

In many areas, Canada for one, Methodism devolved into Secular Humanistic universalist organizations such as the United Church of Canada and the United Church of Christ in the US.

Pietistic Lutheranism was a result of Philipist concessions, which were a response to Crypto-Calvinism. In Europe, Canada, and the US, these non Confessional Lutheran Synods have also devolved in much the same way (becoming secular humanistic and either Christian universalist or just plain universalist (or almost Unitarian in some cases) in nature.

I find that Methodism does have a very fascinating history - although I'd say such for reasons different than what you noted (even though I agree with your sentiments).

 

[WisdomTree]

When was the reformation again?

 

[MoreCoffee]

When was the reformation again?

Umm, after the Protestant revolt; probably around the time that the council of Trent started its work of reforming and correcting the Church's practises and leaders.

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

When was the reformation again?

Traditionally the beginning of the reformation is marked on Oct. 31, the anniversary of the posting of the 95 Theses in 1517.

I believe that there are other dates which more accuratly could be called the beginning.

1520-Leo X issues bull Exsurge, Dominie.
1521-Leo excommunicates Luther.
1530-1531-Augsburg Confession presented to Charles V at the Diet of Augsburg/Augsburg Confession Published.
1580-Unlatered book of Concord published.

So, from the POV of a Confessional Lutheran, one could say that it was from 1517-1580.

From the POV of Protestants and Restorationists; it is still going on.

From God's POV, I think that one could say that it started with creation, and will continue to the last day.

 

[WisdomTree]

Traditionally the beginning of the reformation is marked on Oct. 31, the anniversary of the posting of the 95 Theses in 1517.

I believe that there are other dates which more accuratly could be called the beginning.

1520-Leo X issues bull Exsurge, Dominie.
1521-Leo excommunicates Luther.
1530-1531-Augsburg Confession presented to Charles V at the Diet of Augsburg/Augsburg Confession Published.
1580-Unlatered book of Concord published.

So, from the POV of a Confessional Lutheran, one could say that it was from 1517-1580.

From the POV of Protestants and Restorationists; it is still going on.

From God's POV, I think that one could say that it started with creation, and will continue to the last day.

Hmm... Would it be okay to say that any groups formed within the next hundred years after the Protestant Reformation be considered "historic"?

 

[MoreCoffee]

Hmm... Would it be okay to say that any groups formed within the next hundred years after the Protestant Reformation be considered "historic"?

"historic" could, in theory, cover anything that happened in the past, even last week. But folk usually think of "historic" as meaning something that has had a long history and use in a given culture. Protestant denominations that date back to the 16th century would qualify. But when one thinks of "historic Christianity" something older would be in mind, I think. Something that stretches back to apostolic times would be what one is thinking of with that phrase.

I think that "restorationist" denominations may see "historic Christianity" as meaning the Christian religion as it existed while the apostles were still alive and able to discipline the churches.

I am not sure what non-denominational groups would think "historic Christianity" means, or even what "historic Protestantism" means.

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

Hmm... Would it be okay to say that any groups formed within the next hundred years after the Protestant Reformation be considered "historic"?

"historic" could, in theory, cover anything that happened in the past, even last week. But folk usually think of "historic" as meaning something that has had a long history and use in a given culture. Protestant denominations that date back to the 16th century would qualify. But when one thinks of "historic Christianity" something older would be in mind, I think. Something that stretches back to apostolic times would be what one is thinking of with that phrase.

I think that "restorationist" denominations may see "historic Christianity" as meaning the Christian religion as it existed while the apostles were still alive and able to discipline the churches.

I am not sure what non-denominational groups would think "historic Christianity" means, or even what "historic Protestantism" means.

It may be that Historic vs. Modern may not be the best terminology. Classic vs. Modern may be more appropriate. With this modified terminology, I would propose that it would encompass everything that occurred up until the end of the Age of Orthodox as we Confessional Lutherans call it. That would take us to the end of the "Baroque" period, which ends around 1725.

 

[GratiaCorpusChristi]

It may be that Historic vs. Modern may not be the best terminology. Classic vs. Modern may be more appropriate. With this modified terminology, I would propose that it would encompass everything that occurred up until the end of the Age of Orthodox as we Confessional Lutherans call it. That would take us to the end of the "Baroque" period, which ends around 1725.

I agree and like your approach of coming up with different definitions and terminology.

I'd go a step further, though, and not divide things by date so much as by historical consciousness.

Thus instead of stamping a date, we could talk about historic churches as being churches that look backward for their roots which would include not only Catholic, Orthodox, Lutheran, Anglican, and Calvinist churches, but also later groups like the Methodists. Modern churches could then include reformation or even pre-reformation restorationist groups that look primarily toward reconstructing the church through a definite break with the past, and would thus include Waldensians, Zwinglians, and the sixteenth century Anabaptists as well as Churches of Christ, Baptists, Pentecostals, etc.