The Lord's day.

[Elder 111]

When you reduce comments made by others to this fallacious paradigm of 'Sunday vs. Sabbath' you alone subscribe to, you end up unable to respond to those comments.

Not at all, at the end of the day that is what it boils down too.

 

[VictorC]

Not at all, at the end of the day that is what it boils down too.

So you admit that your intent is to discuss only with yourself.
I guess that's why your comments have little to no relation to a given post you choose as an anchor point.

 

[Elder 111]

I wholeheartedly agree with you!
There have been five of us who have offered opinions regarding the OP's dependence on Revelation 1:10, that John wasn't referring to any repetitive day of the week at all - and Elder111 has forced his own assumption into the poll questions that don't take this into account. There isn't anything I can answer that accurately reflects the conclusion I (and others) have come to. The poll is a farce.

The response you got affirms the OP as a seventh-day Adventist.



I would add the comment that Paul shows a different relationship in Galatians 3:23, where he writes "But before faith came, we were kept under guard by the law, kept for the faith which would afterward be revealed." Galatians 4:5 affirms this relationship, where the Law kept the recipients, and not the other way around: the recipients keeping or not keeping the Law isn't germane. When the fulness of time came to fruition, God's redemption from the former owner of those who became His adopted children ended the relationship they had within the Law's jurisdiction.

Never the less, I agree that you have accurately summarized Galatians 4.
Elder111's response goes beyond the curious and into the realm of the pathetic.



Elder111: When you decided to call Scripture a 'lie', you basically lost your presentation's credibility. Add to this your logical fallacy that Galatians 4 is a lie because the unrelated sound bite you fetched from Romans 7 contradicts it somehow.

• Scripture doesn't contradict Scripture - especially an epistle written by the same inspired author.
• Reducing Romans 7 to one sound-bite ignores the message this chapter conveys, and your appeal to an unrelated text is contradictory to what that text actually says.

Had you read Romans 7:12 in the context it appears in, you would not have been able to avoid verse 6 telling us in plain language that God delivered us from the Law that held us in the past tense - consistent with the relationship shown in Galatians 3:23 - and then verse 7 identifies that Law we have been delivered from by a quote from the Ten Commandments.

I agree with Cribstyl: The SDA cannot reconcile his opinion with Scripture.
Elder111 has decided that Scripture contradicts Scripture, that is fine with him, and his theology is hopelessly broken without recourse or repair possible. It is the same thing he did on another thread presuming to be a poll, where he threw out the message of Hebrews 3 and 4 and replaced it with his opinion that can't be reconciled with Scripture.

It is interesting that you think I am making an argument for scripture contradicting itself. I absolutely believe there is no contradiction in all scripture.
What you have seen is not an implied or suggested contradiction in scripture but a clear indication that your interpretation contradicts scripture.
Paul blatantly states that the law is holy and good as indeed God Himself is. Paul is not negating the law for the Christian or suggesting it is no more in force, but that the Christian who live within the law, that is a righteous life by faith in Christ, has no fair of the law because he keeps it.

 

[Elder 111]

So you admit that your intent is to discuss only with yourself.
I guess that's why your comments have little to no relation to a given post you choose as an anchor point.

The "anchor point" as you put it is about what day John is speaking about. Granted you have another opinion.
The thing is that others want to make a plug for Sunday being a holy chosen day by the apostles and that Sabbath could not be the day meant by" the Lord's day".
The Sabbath is the only day that can be termed "the Lord day" by scripture.

 

[VictorC]

It is interesting that you think I am making an argument for scripture contradicting itself. I absolutely believe there is no contradiction in all scripture.

This claim cannot be reconciled with your performance.

What you have seen is not an implied or suggested contradiction in scripture but a clear indication that your interpretation contradicts scripture.
Paul blatantly states that the law is holy and good as indeed God Himself is. Paul is not negating the law for the Christian or suggesting it is no more in force, but that the Christian who live within the law, that is a righteous life by faith in Christ, has no fair of the law because he keeps it.

The Pauline epistles are written using plain language in a manner intended to clearly convey the author's meaning to the intended audience. Interpretation is not necessary. As a first step toward reconciling your new claim with what Paul actually wrote, answer the following pop-quiz: What is the Law that we have been delivered from?

 

[VictorC]

When you reduce comments made by others to this fallacious paradigm of 'Sunday vs. Sabbath' you alone subscribe to, you end up unable to respond to those comments.

The "anchor point" as you put it is about what day John is speaking about. Granted you have another opinion.
The thing is that others want to make a plug for Sunday being a holy chosen day by the apostles and that Sabbath could not be the day meant by" the Lord's day".
The Sabbath is the only day that can be termed "the Lord day" by scripture.

Thanks.
You've amply demonstrated that you can't follow a conversation, and you don't want to know what John wrote in his epistle.
You haven't shown any support for a repetitive cycle, which was pointed out as a dependency for your assumption - and this was mentioned about 500 posts ago. Yet even without this requisite component even existing, all you can think of are cycles with Saturday and Sunday, which are both observed in the flesh. Neither are consistent with what John wrote in Revelation 1:10.

 

[rstrats]

Although I think the better case can be made that Revelation 1:10 is not referring to the first day of the week, what if it is? What - if anything - would be the scriptural significance of that?

 

[Florierte Gottes]

It appears you've got no concept of the New Covenant.

I do, as it is found in Jeremiah 31, where it is written:

{context of Jeremiah 31, chapter and before}

In those days they shall say no more, The fathers have eaten a sour grape, and the children's teeth are set on edge. Jer 31:29

But every one shall die for his own iniquity: every man that eateth the sour grape, his teeth shall be set on edge. Jer 31:30

Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: Jer 31:31

Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD: Jer 31:32

But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. Jer 31:33

And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more. Jer 31:34

and also elsewhere:

A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. Eze 36:26

And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do [them]. Eze 36:27

For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah: Heb 8:8

For this [is] the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people: Heb 8:10

This [is] the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them; Heb 10:16

The Old Covenant is indeed gone, but that Old Covenant is not the Ten Commandments themselves, see Exodus 19 again.

A covenant is an agreement made between two or more parties about something. See Exo 19, 24.

The old covenant agreement made by the peoples to God in their promises, "we [the peoples] will do...all that the Lord hath said"

The new [everlasting] Covenant, "I [the LORD] will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:"

What "my laws" do we think God had in mind when He said it through Jeremiah? Just read Jeremiah:

Hear, O earth: behold, I will bring evil upon this people, [even] the fruit of their thoughts, because they have not hearkened unto my words, nor to my law, but rejected it. Jeremiah 6:19

And the LORD saith, Because they have forsaken my law which I set before them, and have not obeyed my voice, neither walked therein; Jeremiah 9:13

Then shalt thou say unto them, Because your fathers have forsaken me, saith the LORD, and have walked after other gods, and have served them, and have worshipped them, and have forsaken me, and have not kept my law; Jeremiah 16:11

And thou shalt say unto them, Thus saith the LORD; If ye will not hearken to me, to walk inmy law, which I have set before you, Jeremiah 26:4

But this [shall be] the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my lawin their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. Jeremiah 31:33

They are not humbled [even] unto this day, neither have they feared, nor walked in my law, nor in my statutes, that I set before you and before your fathers. Jeremiah 44:10

and not only in Jeremiah, but elsewhere too:

Her priests have violated my law, and have profaned mine holy things: they have put no difference between the holy and profane, neither have they shewed [difference] between the unclean and the clean, and have hid their eyes from my sabbaths, and I am profaned among them. Ezekiel 22:26

I have written to him the great things of my law, [but] they were counted as a strange thing. Hosea 8:12

Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws. Genesis 26:5

And the LORD said unto Moses, How long refuse ye to keep my commandmentsand my laws? Exodus 16:28

And in controversy they shall stand in judgment; [and] they shall judge it according to my judgments: and they shall keep my laws and my statutes in all mine assemblies; and they shall hallow my sabbaths. Ezekiel 44:24

It is continually said by the a-nomian [lawless], the anti-nominian [against the Ten Commandments], that there is to be a 'new law' written, different from the 'old law', but nowhere in scripture such a 'new law' found. The scripture clearly states "My Law", speaking of God's very Law, the Ten Commandments.

Then said the LORD unto Moses, Behold, I will rain bread from heaven for you; and the people shall go out and gather a certain rate every day, that I may prove them, whether they will walk in my law, or no. Exodus 16:4

Now therefore, O LORD God of Israel, keep with thy servant David my father that which thou hast promised him, saying, There shall not fail thee a man in my sight to sit upon the throne of Israel; yet so that thy children take heed to their way to walk in my law, as thou hast walked before me. 2 Chronicles 6:16

[[Maschil of Asaph.]] Give ear, O my people, [to] my law: incline your ears to the words of my mouth. Psalms 78:1

If his children forsake my law, and walk not in my judgments; Psalms 89:30

My son, forget not my law; but let thine heartkeep my commandments: Proverbs 3:1

For I give you good doctrine, forsake ye not my law. Proverbs 4:2

Keep my commandments, and live; and my law as the apple of thine eye. Proverbs 7:2

Hearken unto me, ye that know righteousness, the people in whose heart [is] my law; fear ye not the reproach of men, neither be ye afraid of their revilings. Isaiah 51:7

The Ten Commandments, the absolute Moral Law of God, are to be written upon the heart, the inward man, that obedience will stem from the root of Godly love.

Revelation 1:10, speaks in regards to one of those Commandments, that John loved to obey, even the 4th Commandment, Exo 20:8-11, and was even exiled to the Isle of Patmos for "keeping the commandments of God", just read 1 John through and through, read Psalms 78:7, and in so not forgetting what Christ Jesus has done, because of a broken law, let us remember to Keep His Commandments, especially the one Holy commandment that contains the words "Remember the Sabbath Day to Keep it Holy ... the seventh day is the Sabbath of the Lord thy God..."

Revelation 1:10 is given in an historical context, for John was on the Isle of Patmos, exiled for obedience to God and being faithful, and it was during, or on the Lord's day, the seventh day Sabbath of the Lord, that John was "in the spirit" and received the vision.

It is the Lord's day, for that was the Day, the seventh Day, that Jesus rested, saying "It is Finished" nearing the end of the sixth day, and entered into the Rest of the Seventh Day, just as was done in Creation, when God completed His work. The Lord is Jesus Christ, and it is His day, He rested.

Sunday, the 'first [day] of the week' [mian sabbatwn], is nowhere mentioned, named, designated, etc. The Sabbath of God is always the 7th day the Sabbath of the Lord, even in every single 'first [day] of the week' text. In Scripture, never is the 'first [day] of the week' ever called the Lord's day, nor ever implied to be so.

Enter into the Rest with Him, lest ye perish in the wilderness, and for transgression of God's Holy Law by your tradition which ye have received of your fathers.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Originally Posted by from scratch

It appears you've got no concept of the New Covenant.
​

I do, as it is found in Jeremiah 31, where it is written:

Enter into the Rest with Him, lest ye perish in the wilderness, and for transgression of God's Holy Law by your tradition which ye have received of your fathers.

Oooops!
The Jewish sabbath is in another hour and 3 minutes.....gotta go get my hammock and portable TV ready!

 

[Elder 111]

This claim cannot be reconciled with your performance.



The Pauline epistles are written using plain language in a manner intended to clearly convey the author's meaning to the intended audience. Interpretation is not necessary. As a first step toward reconciling your new claim with what Paul actually wrote, answer the following pop-quiz: What is the Law that we have been delivered from?

It is the condemnation of the law that we are deliver from. Not the keeping of the Law. Because we have forgiveness in Christ we are not subject the the condemnation of the law (eternal death). Not that the law is removed. There is where we differ and that is what Paul speaks to, otherwise there is a contradiction as you pointed out.

 

[Elder 111]

Although I think the better case can be made that Revelation 1:10 is not referring to the first day of the week, what if it is? What - if anything - would be the scriptural significance of that?

It is one of the pillars that is used to say that the Apostles kept Sunday. That Sabbath keeping was abandoned.

 

[rstrats]

Elder 111,

re: "It is one of the pillars that is used to say that the Apostles kept Sunday. That Sabbath keeping was abandoned."


But that is not scriptural. I asked for scriptural significance.

 

[VictorC]

It is the condemnation of the law that we are deliver from. Not the keeping of the Law. Because we have forgiveness in Christ we are not subject the the condemnation of the law (eternal death). Not that the law is removed. There is where we differ and that is what Paul speaks to, otherwise there is a contradiction as you pointed out.

Not one word you wrote has any Biblical support, and it is contradictory to what Romans 7 says. Like you did with Galatians, you simply rejected Scripture and hope your conjecture is an acceptable replacement. Your comment about "keeping of the Law" shows that you didn't even read what I had posted:

I would add the comment that Paul shows a different relationship in Galatians 3:23, where he writes "But before faith came, we were kept under guard by the law, kept for the faith which would afterward be revealed." Galatians 4:5 affirms this relationship, where the Law kept the recipients, and not the other way around: the recipients keeping or not keeping the Law isn't germane. When the fulness of time came to fruition, God's redemption from the former owner of those who became His adopted children ended the relationship they had within the Law's jurisdiction.
...
Had you read Romans 7:12 in the context it appears in, you would not have been able to avoid verse 6 telling us in plain language that God delivered us from the Law that held us in the past tense - consistent with the relationship shown in Galatians 3:23 - and then verse 7 identifies that Law we have been delivered from by a quote from the Ten Commandments.

Not only is your answer wrong when compared with Scripture, but you haven't defended your opinion when this was pointed out in a post.
The crunching sound on the floor is where your theology remains broken, and you've made no effort to repair it.

 

[Florierte Gottes]

Please allow me to highlight the connecting thought in the verse.

Context details Paul's use of the terms "But now we are delivered from the law [being delivered in what manner? From the Commandments to do good, and withhold from evil, sin?, No, rather delievered from the Penalty for its Transgression, 2nd death], that being dead [subjects unto the Second Death, as we were children of wrath] wherein we were held [bound by God's judgment upon sin, Wages of Sin is 2nd Death]; that we should serve in newness of spirit [the Ten Commandments, the Law is Spiritual; Romans 7:14 [context] serve God, and keep His commandments, from the transformed mind and born again heart, not from mere outward compliance without heart change], and not [in] the oldness of the letter. [as merely serving only the outward letter, without having stemmed from the renewed, re-created new man heart [dead to the old man of sin, transgression of the law]], but serving and obeying instead Christ Jesus from the new heart given us by God]" Romans 7:6

Paul does not say anywhere, ever, in scripture that the "letter" of God's Law, the Ten Commandments, was wicked, evil, or bad, needing to be destroyed, removed, abrogated, etc [see Romans 7:7 context ["...[Is] the law sin? God forbid. ..."]].

Paul is merely saying that God cannot be served from the mere letter, neither in dead works [an attempt at self-salvation], but rather only in true obedience, true "serve[ice]", which is found stemming from the renewed, recreated heart given by God [salvation]. Salvation does not negate obedience to the Ten Commandments, it demands it by the love of and for God, who first loved us. Like a fountain, or water source that is purified by throwing in the BRANCH, the waters then run clear... if the source be pure from which it springs be pure, then that which is on the surface for drinking, will then be pure. Therefore, in the new heart, it beats from a different motive, than the unrenewed, unregenerated heart.

Paul is so clear...

"For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace." Romans 6:14

What does Paul mean by "not under the law"?

Does He mean, that it is no longer to be obeyed? See more context...

What then? shall we sin [1 John 3:4, sin is transgression of the Law], because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid. Romans 6:15

Paul is peaking of Penalty and guilt...

Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. Romans 3:19

If all are found "guilty", what are they "guilty" of? It is Transgression of God's Law, the Ten Commandments, and the "wages for sin is death" - thus from guilt to deserved penalty/punishment.

This is what Paul is speaking of here, not removal of the Ten Commandments. If any one of the Ten Commandments were able to be removed, then Christ Jesus never need have died, at all.

What is Paul saying we are delivered from? A Commandment, or the penalty which the Commandment brought because of transgression? What was the penalty for sin? Death...

Context vs 5:

For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.

The Law is not the bondage, the sin [transgression of the Law] is...

And I will ask yet again of the previous context, as it is never answered:

Romans 7:1 and throughout.

Let us all read Romans 7:1-4 [and further still], then answer the following.

Which died,...

... the Law of marriage?
... the 'woman'?
... the [old] 'husband'?
... the [new] 'husband'?

Then, in the re-marriage, does the "Law of Marriage" still exist to be obeyed?

Later on, Paul talks about the "Law".

Did Paul say that this "Law"...

... was good?
... was bad?

Did Paul say that he,...

... delighted in the "Law" after the inward man?
... despised the "Law" after the inward man?

Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law. Romans 3:31

Void - καταργουμεν
"1) to render idle, unemployed, inactivate, inoperative
a) to cause a person or thing to have no further efficiency
b) to deprive of force, influence, power
2) to cause to cease, put an end to, do away with, annul, abolish
a) to cease, to pass away, be done away
b) to be severed from, separated from, discharged from, loosed from any one
c) to terminate all intercourse with one"

Establish - ιστωμεν
"1) to cause or make to stand, to place, put, set
a) to bid to stand by, [set up]
1) in the presence of others, in the midst, before judges, before members of the Sanhedrin;
2) to place
b) to make firm, fix establish
1) to cause a person or a thing to keep his or its place
2) to stand, be kept intact (of family, a kingdom), to escape in safety
3) to establish a thing, cause it to stand
a) to uphold or sustain the authority or force of anything
c) to set or place in a balance
1) to weigh: money to one (because in very early times before the introduction of coinage, the metals used to be weighed)
2) to stand
a) to stand by or near
1) to stop, stand still, to stand immovable, stand firm
a) of the foundation of a building
b) to stand
1) continue safe and sound, stand unharmed, to stand ready or prepared
2) to be of a steadfast mind
3) of quality, one who does not hesitate, does not waiver"

How long after the Cross did Paul write those words?

 

[VictorC]

Please allow me to highlight the connecting thought in the verse.

Context details Paul's use of the terms "But now we are delivered from the law [being delivered in what manner? From the Commandments to do good, and withhold from evil, sin?, No, rather delievered from the Penalty for its Transgression, 2nd death], that being dead [subjects unto the Second Death, as we were children of wrath] wherein we were held [bound by God's judgment upon sin, Wages of Sin is 2nd Death]; that we should serve in newness of spirit [the Ten Commandments, the Law is Spiritual; Romans 7:14 [context] serve God, and keep His commandments, from the transformed mind and born again heart, not from mere outward compliance without heart change], and not [in] the oldness of the letter. [as merely serving only the outward letter, without having stemmed from the renewed, re-created new man heart [dead to the old man of sin, transgression of the law]], but serving and obeying instead Christ Jesus from the new heart given us by God]" Romans 7:6

Hi.
I don't know who you intend to respond to, but I couldn't help but notice that your argument depends on re-writing Scripture to say something completely foreign to what the inspired author penned.
So of course it isn't worth consideration.
Bye.

 

[from scratch]

Please allow me to highlight the connecting thought in the verse.

Context details Paul's use of the terms "But now we are delivered from the law [being delivered in what manner? From the Commandments to do good, and withhold from evil, sin?, No, rather delievered from the Penalty for its Transgression, 2nd death], that being dead [subjects unto the Second Death, as we were children of wrath] wherein we were held [bound by God's judgment upon sin, Wages of Sin is 2nd Death]; that we should serve in newness of spirit [the Ten Commandments, the Law is Spiritual; Romans 7:14 [context] serve God, and keep His commandments, from the transformed mind and born again heart, not from mere outward compliance without heart change], and not [in] the oldness of the letter. [as merely serving only the outward letter, without having stemmed from the renewed, re-created new man heart [dead to the old man of sin, transgression of the law]], but serving and obeying instead Christ Jesus from the new heart given us by God]" Romans 7:6

Paul does not say anywhere, ever, in scripture that the "letter" of God's Law, the Ten Commandments, was wicked, evil, or bad, needing to be destroyed, removed, abrogated, etc [see Romans 7:7 context ["...[Is] the law sin? God forbid. ..."]].

Paul is merely saying that God cannot be served from the mere letter, neither in dead works [an attempt at self-salvation], but rather only in true obedience, true "serve[ice]", which is found stemming from the renewed, recreated heart given by God [salvation]. Salvation does not negate obedience to the Ten Commandments, it demands it by the love of and for God, who first loved us. Like a fountain, or water source that is purified by throwing in the BRANCH, the waters then run clear... if the source be pure from which it springs be pure, then that which is on the surface for drinking, will then be pure. Therefore, in the new heart, it beats from a different motive, than the unrenewed, unregenerated heart.

Paul is so clear...

"For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace." Romans 6:14

What does Paul mean by "not under the law"?

Does He mean, that it is no longer to be obeyed? See more context...

What then? shall we sin [1 John 3:4, sin is transgression of the Law], because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid. Romans 6:15

Paul is peaking of Penalty and guilt...

Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. Romans 3:19

If all are found "guilty", what are they "guilty" of? It is Transgression of God's Law, the Ten Commandments, and the "wages for sin is death" - thus from guilt to deserved penalty/punishment.

This is what Paul is speaking of here, not removal of the Ten Commandments. If any one of the Ten Commandments were able to be removed, then Christ Jesus never need have died, at all.

What is Paul saying we are delivered from? A Commandment, or the penalty which the Commandment brought because of transgression? What was the penalty for sin? Death...

Context vs 5:

For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.

The Law is not the bondage, the sin [transgression of the Law] is...

And I will ask yet again of the previous context, as it is never answered:

Romans 7:1 and throughout.

Let us all read Romans 7:1-4 [and further still], then answer the following.

Which died,...

... the Law of marriage?
... the 'woman'?
... the [old] 'husband'?
... the [new] 'husband'?

Then, in the re-marriage, does the "Law of Marriage" still exist to be obeyed?

Later on, Paul talks about the "Law".

Did Paul say that this "Law"...

... was good?
... was bad?

Did Paul say that he,...

... delighted in the "Law" after the inward man?
... despised the "Law" after the inward man?

Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law. Romans 3:31

Void - καταργουμεν
"1) to render idle, unemployed, inactivate, inoperative
a) to cause a person or thing to have no further efficiency
b) to deprive of force, influence, power
2) to cause to cease, put an end to, do away with, annul, abolish
a) to cease, to pass away, be done away
b) to be severed from, separated from, discharged from, loosed from any one
c) to terminate all intercourse with one"

Establish - ιστωμεν
"1) to cause or make to stand, to place, put, set
a) to bid to stand by, [set up]
1) in the presence of others, in the midst, before judges, before members of the Sanhedrin;
2) to place
b) to make firm, fix establish
1) to cause a person or a thing to keep his or its place
2) to stand, be kept intact (of family, a kingdom), to escape in safety
3) to establish a thing, cause it to stand
a) to uphold or sustain the authority or force of anything
c) to set or place in a balance
1) to weigh: money to one (because in very early times before the introduction of coinage, the metals used to be weighed)
2) to stand
a) to stand by or near
1) to stop, stand still, to stand immovable, stand firm
a) of the foundation of a building
b) to stand
1) continue safe and sound, stand unharmed, to stand ready or prepared
2) to be of a steadfast mind
3) of quality, one who does not hesitate, does not waiver"

How long after the Cross did Paul write those words?

You incorrectly address the wrong thing.

 

[from scratch]

The "anchor point" as you put it is about what day John is speaking about. Granted you have another opinion.
The thing is that others want to make a plug for Sunday being a holy chosen day by the apostles and that Sabbath could not be the day meant by" the Lord's day".
The Sabbath is the only day that can be termed "the Lord day" by scripture.

Did some one here proclaim Sunday as a holy day?

 

[from scratch]

I do, as it is found in Jeremiah 31, where it is written:

{context of Jeremiah 31, chapter and before}

In those days they shall say no more, The fathers have eaten a sour grape, and the children's teeth are set on edge. Jer 31:29

But every one shall die for his own iniquity: every man that eateth the sour grape, his teeth shall be set on edge. Jer 31:30

Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: Jer 31:31

Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD: Jer 31:32

But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. Jer 31:33

And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more. Jer 31:34

and also elsewhere:

A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. Eze 36:26

And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do [them]. Eze 36:27

For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah: Heb 8:8

For this [is] the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people: Heb 8:10

This [is] the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them; Heb 10:16

The Old Covenant is indeed gone, but that Old Covenant is not the Ten Commandments themselves, see Exodus 19 again.

A covenant is an agreement made between two or more parties about something. See Exo 19, 24.

The old covenant agreement made by the peoples to God in their promises, "we [the peoples] will do...all that the Lord hath said"

The new [everlasting] Covenant, "I [the LORD] will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:"

What "my laws" do we think God had in mind when He said it through Jeremiah? Just read Jeremiah:

Hear, O earth: behold, I will bring evil upon this people, [even] the fruit of their thoughts, because they have not hearkened unto my words, nor to my law, but rejected it. Jeremiah 6:19

And the LORD saith, Because they have forsaken my law which I set before them, and have not obeyed my voice, neither walked therein; Jeremiah 9:13

Then shalt thou say unto them, Because your fathers have forsaken me, saith the LORD, and have walked after other gods, and have served them, and have worshipped them, and have forsaken me, and have not kept my law; Jeremiah 16:11

And thou shalt say unto them, Thus saith the LORD; If ye will not hearken to me, to walk inmy law, which I have set before you, Jeremiah 26:4

But this [shall be] the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my lawin their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. Jeremiah 31:33

They are not humbled [even] unto this day, neither have they feared, nor walked in my law, nor in my statutes, that I set before you and before your fathers. Jeremiah 44:10

and not only in Jeremiah, but elsewhere too:

Her priests have violated my law, and have profaned mine holy things: they have put no difference between the holy and profane, neither have they shewed [difference] between the unclean and the clean, and have hid their eyes from my sabbaths, and I am profaned among them. Ezekiel 22:26

I have written to him the great things of my law, [but] they were counted as a strange thing. Hosea 8:12

Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws. Genesis 26:5

And the LORD said unto Moses, How long refuse ye to keep my commandmentsand my laws? Exodus 16:28

And in controversy they shall stand in judgment; [and] they shall judge it according to my judgments: and they shall keep my laws and my statutes in all mine assemblies; and they shall hallow my sabbaths. Ezekiel 44:24

It is continually said by the a-nomian [lawless], the anti-nominian [against the Ten Commandments], that there is to be a 'new law' written, different from the 'old law', but nowhere in scripture such a 'new law' found. The scripture clearly states "My Law", speaking of God's very Law, the Ten Commandments.

Then said the LORD unto Moses, Behold, I will rain bread from heaven for you; and the people shall go out and gather a certain rate every day, that I may prove them, whether they will walk in my law, or no. Exodus 16:4

Now therefore, O LORD God of Israel, keep with thy servant David my father that which thou hast promised him, saying, There shall not fail thee a man in my sight to sit upon the throne of Israel; yet so that thy children take heed to their way to walk in my law, as thou hast walked before me. 2 Chronicles 6:16

[[Maschil of Asaph.]] Give ear, O my people, [to] my law: incline your ears to the words of my mouth. Psalms 78:1

If his children forsake my law, and walk not in my judgments; Psalms 89:30

My son, forget not my law; but let thine heartkeep my commandments: Proverbs 3:1

For I give you good doctrine, forsake ye not my law. Proverbs 4:2

Keep my commandments, and live; and my law as the apple of thine eye. Proverbs 7:2

Hearken unto me, ye that know righteousness, the people in whose heart [is] my law; fear ye not the reproach of men, neither be ye afraid of their revilings. Isaiah 51:7

The Ten Commandments, the absolute Moral Law of God, are to be written upon the heart, the inward man, that obedience will stem from the root of Godly love.

Revelation 1:10, speaks in regards to one of those Commandments, that John loved to obey, even the 4th Commandment, Exo 20:8-11, and was even exiled to the Isle of Patmos for "keeping the commandments of God", just read 1 John through and through, read Psalms 78:7, and in so not forgetting what Christ Jesus has done, because of a broken law, let us remember to Keep His Commandments, especially the one Holy commandment that contains the words "Remember the Sabbath Day to Keep it Holy ... the seventh day is the Sabbath of the Lord thy God..."

Revelation 1:10 is given in an historical context, for John was on the Isle of Patmos, exiled for obedience to God and being faithful, and it was during, or on the Lord's day, the seventh day Sabbath of the Lord, that John was "in the spirit" and received the vision.

It is the Lord's day, for that was the Day, the seventh Day, that Jesus rested, saying "It is Finished" nearing the end of the sixth day, and entered into the Rest of the Seventh Day, just as was done in Creation, when God completed His work. The Lord is Jesus Christ, and it is His day, He rested.

Sunday, the 'first [day] of the week' [mian sabbatwn], is nowhere mentioned, named, designated, etc. The Sabbath of God is always the 7th day the Sabbath of the Lord, even in every single 'first [day] of the week' text. In Scripture, never is the 'first [day] of the week' ever called the Lord's day, nor ever implied to be so.

Enter into the Rest with Him, lest ye perish in the wilderness, and for transgression of God's Holy Law by your tradition which ye have received of your fathers.

Lots of words with no meaning. Your idea requires God's law to be all inclusive in the Ten Commandments. Jeremiah disagrees with you. Moses doesn't agree with you either. Your whole argument depends on code words.

 

[from scratch]

It is the condemnation of the law that we are deliver from. Not the keeping of the Law. Because we have forgiveness in Christ we are not subject the the condemnation of the law (eternal death). Not that the law is removed. There is where we differ and that is what Paul speaks to, otherwise there is a contradiction as you pointed out.

Your law has become nothing more that a mere suggestion with no teeth and therefore no value.

 

[Elder 111]

Please allow me to highlight the connecting thought in the verse.

Context details Paul's use of the terms "But now we are delivered from the law [being delivered in what manner? From the Commandments to do good, and withhold from evil, sin?, No, rather delievered from the Penalty for its Transgression, 2nd death], that being dead [subjects unto the Second Death, as we were children of wrath] wherein we were held [bound by God's judgment upon sin, Wages of Sin is 2nd Death]; that we should serve in newness of spirit [the Ten Commandments, the Law is Spiritual; Romans 7:14 [context] serve God, and keep His commandments, from the transformed mind and born again heart, not from mere outward compliance without heart change], and not [in] the oldness of the letter. [as merely serving only the outward letter, without having stemmed from the renewed, re-created new man heart [dead to the old man of sin, transgression of the law]], but serving and obeying instead Christ Jesus from the new heart given us by God]" Romans 7:6

Paul does not say anywhere, ever, in scripture that the "letter" of God's Law, the Ten Commandments, was wicked, evil, or bad, needing to be destroyed, removed, abrogated, etc [see Romans 7:7 context ["...[Is] the law sin? God forbid. ..."]].

Paul is merely saying that God cannot be served from the mere letter, neither in dead works [an attempt at self-salvation], but rather only in true obedience, true "serve[ice]", which is found stemming from the renewed, recreated heart given by God [salvation]. Salvation does not negate obedience to the Ten Commandments, it demands it by the love of and for God, who first loved us. Like a fountain, or water source that is purified by throwing in the BRANCH, the waters then run clear... if the source be pure from which it springs be pure, then that which is on the surface for drinking, will then be pure. Therefore, in the new heart, it beats from a different motive, than the unrenewed, unregenerated heart.

Paul is so clear...

"For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace." Romans 6:14

What does Paul mean by "not under the law"?

Does He mean, that it is no longer to be obeyed? See more context...

What then? shall we sin [1 John 3:4, sin is transgression of the Law], because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid. Romans 6:15

Paul is peaking of Penalty and guilt...

Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. Romans 3:19

If all are found "guilty", what are they "guilty" of? It is Transgression of God's Law, the Ten Commandments, and the "wages for sin is death" - thus from guilt to deserved penalty/punishment.

This is what Paul is speaking of here, not removal of the Ten Commandments. If any one of the Ten Commandments were able to be removed, then Christ Jesus never need have died, at all.

What is Paul saying we are delivered from? A Commandment, or the penalty which the Commandment brought because of transgression? What was the penalty for sin? Death...

Context vs 5:

For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.

The Law is not the bondage, the sin [transgression of the Law] is...

And I will ask yet again of the previous context, as it is never answered:

Romans 7:1 and throughout.

Let us all read Romans 7:1-4 [and further still], then answer the following.

Which died,...

... the Law of marriage?
... the 'woman'?
... the [old] 'husband'?
... the [new] 'husband'?

Then, in the re-marriage, does the "Law of Marriage" still exist to be obeyed?

Later on, Paul talks about the "Law".

Did Paul say that this "Law"...

... was good?
... was bad?

Did Paul say that he,...

... delighted in the "Law" after the inward man?
... despised the "Law" after the inward man?

Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law. Romans 3:31

Void - καταργουμεν
"1) to render idle, unemployed, inactivate, inoperative
a) to cause a person or thing to have no further efficiency
b) to deprive of force, influence, power
2) to cause to cease, put an end to, do away with, annul, abolish
a) to cease, to pass away, be done away
b) to be severed from, separated from, discharged from, loosed from any one
c) to terminate all intercourse with one"

Establish - ιστωμεν
"1) to cause or make to stand, to place, put, set
a) to bid to stand by, [set up]
1) in the presence of others, in the midst, before judges, before members of the Sanhedrin;
2) to place
b) to make firm, fix establish
1) to cause a person or a thing to keep his or its place
2) to stand, be kept intact (of family, a kingdom), to escape in safety
3) to establish a thing, cause it to stand
a) to uphold or sustain the authority or force of anything
c) to set or place in a balance
1) to weigh: money to one (because in very early times before the introduction of coinage, the metals used to be weighed)
2) to stand
a) to stand by or near
1) to stop, stand still, to stand immovable, stand firm
a) of the foundation of a building
b) to stand
1) continue safe and sound, stand unharmed, to stand ready or prepared
2) to be of a steadfast mind
3) of quality, one who does not hesitate, does not waiver"

How long after the Cross did Paul write those words?

A very noble effort. Great post.