A Complete Skull from Dmanisi

[stevevw]

I asked you what you would think of Jesus had you been raised to be a Muslim?
Are you saying that what you think now is what someone else has told you to think?

no what i am saying is that what we know now is what others have taught us. accumulated knowledge. our thinking is influenced by this. if you are uneducated then you dont know and your thinking will be limited. you may not know all the factors so thinking for yourself is limited. so any ability to weight up the circumstances is limited to what you are aware of. that's why some will accept what we would think is not right because they dont know any different. knowledge/education is power. this is different from the truth which can be more universal like killing is wrong no matter who you are and what you know. being able to think for yourself is a privileged that some dont get in countries where there is say a dictatorship. in the army or in some situations you dont get to think for yourself as others have decided that this is the way it will be. you may disagree but you still have to abide. we are lucky in the western world that we have the education and freedom to think for ourselves. but sometimes people will say that if you have faith then you somehow lose your ability to think for yourself. this can be true but that's not just religion this is a trait that happens to people. a young person will not always think for themselves. they are told what to do sometimes. if you belong to any group you will be influenced sometimes and go along with it. if you choose to vote for a particular political party you may be influenced by their propaganda. you may be influenced by a sales man who has a good spiel and gets you to buy their products. even subliminal affects have an influence whether we know it or not. happens all the time we are human and are not robots. i think you are trying to say that religious people seem to not think for themselves but that is a broad statement and it is a presumption. many Christians are scientists or successful business people who hold the same ability to think as anyone else. in fact some studies show that if you are religious you are more successful or have better health. cults can influence people to the point they are brain washed but that is different to a faith in god that promotes a full life and doesn't restrict your mind. the confusion comes when faith requires that you abide by a certain way of living that to some may seem like your giving up something and not living in the real world. in a way faith is like that as it says that this world is a small portion of what is eternity so some will see that everything preoccupied with the here and now is not as important. this doesn't mean they cop out of life just means the emphasis is not as strong.

the same question can be asked about being raised as a catholic in Ireland or a Jehovah witness. like i said these are religions like footy clubs that people belong to. everyone is influenced by their environment whether it be religion or politics or culture. they tell you how to think and behave.

i dont fully understand the Muslim religion but i believe there is a lot similarities with the christian belief in that some of the prophets such as Abraham and Moses are acknowledged. Jesus is also acknowledged as a great prophet. where it differs is that Mohammad is seal of all the prophets and the final prophet. they believe that they are all Muslims because they submitted to god. Muslims believe that Islam is the complete and universal version of a primordial faith that has been revealed before through many
prophets including Abraham, Moses, Ishmael and Jesus. Muslims also believe that these previous messages and revelations have been partially changed and corrupted over time and that the Qur'an is the final unaltered revelation from God (The Final Testament). there are similarities between Islam, Judaism and Christianity all having the same prophets.

Mohammad was born around 570ad and received the quaran over a 23 period during the 6th century. they believe the quaran cannot be interpreted and attempts to have corrupted it. it can only be understood in its inspired form. there is little historical evidence for Muhammad and there is little information about the movement pre Muhammad. Islam acknowledges Jesus as a prophet and friend of god. some say that all three religions Judaism, Islam and Christianity have the same god but different interpretations.

if i was brought up in a Muslim country then i guess i would be a Muslim just as if i was brought up in Russia i would be a communist. Christ in the new testament states that he is the only one true god and god above all others, no other religion states this. Muhammad doesn't say this in fact the true deity of Islam is the quaran itself not a person. the bible talks about the word being preached through out the world and the end will not come until everyone has had a chance to hear the message of salvation. a true Muslim is a good person and preaches peace but at the extreme end it has been interpreted as using violence to promote their cause. the western world believe in the bible and it has influenced the world like no other.

but Islam is no different to many other versions of belief including the many that are within the so called christian section such as Catholics, Mormons and Jehovah witnesses. they all base their beliefs on the bible but have interpreted it in various ways. most of the time the interpretation has moved away from the bible and added other beliefs and teachings. the bible itself talks about this as many will come in my name saying they are the one. in fact in the last days it talks about there being only a small amount of believers left as many fall away. it also talks about Christians being persecuted in the end times and we are beginning to see this with some extreme Islamist persecuting and executing Christians.

 

[biggles53]

do you believe in anything.

Depends what you mean by "believe". If you are asking if I take things on faith, the answer is no. What I have confidence in are those things that I can observe from the real world, that can be tested and that stand up to that testing...

how come ive ended up debating with probably the only two non Christians on this forum. not that it matters i rather enjoy it.

There is quite a significant number of atheists on this site....stick around, I'm sure you'll meet more...

but its sort of like normally people who have the opposite point of view go onto christian sites to do the very thing you are accusing me of. they like to because it challenges everyone but they have be known to go on just to stir things up. to try and convince christians how wrong they are. sort of like the cat among the pigeons.

I'm sure everyone has their individual reasons for visiting a site like this. I do because I enjoy the challenge of debate and, more importantly, I want to play a part in combatting those who would bring nonsense into our children's classrooms (I'm a teacher) and I also wish to resist those who would bring their religious beliefs into the law-making process.m

the more you seek the truth is a big statement. what is the truth, what can be the truth in one society or culture may be different in another. what a persons personal values are may affect his version of what the truth is.different people can define truth in different ways and still be right.

Which is why I would advocate a universal, tried and tested method for assessing the truth of things....it's called the Scientific Method. And it doesn't matter what your cultural background is.......it works the same way for everybody...!

Jesus said i am the way the truth and the light. this truth is said to be above all other truths.

Ummm.....tell me again about you NOT following any religion...?

And that 'truth' only holds for Christians. What good is it for the majority of the world's population who DON'T hold to that philosophy...?

 

[stevevw]

Depends what you mean by "believe". If you are asking if I take things on faith, the answer is no. What I have confidence in are those things that I can observe from the real world, that can be tested and that stand up to that testing...

yes but some who do not know or understand the facts about something still believe it even with evolution. they believe what others have told them and have not tested it themselves. so there is a degree of faith in a lot of things beside religion. a child will hold his mothers hand while crossing the road and believes that all will be OK. not because they fully understand what is going on but because they have faith that their mum will make it safe.


There is quite a significant number of atheists on this site....stick around, I'm sure you'll meet more...

i think i am meeting everyone of them so far, i dont think i have spoken to a christian yet. not that that matters as i enjoy the debate.


I'm sure everyone has their individual reasons for visiting a site like this. I do because I enjoy the challenge of debate and, more importantly, I want to play a part in combatting those who would bring nonsense into our children's classrooms (I'm a teacher) and I also wish to resist those who would bring their religious beliefs into the law-making process.m

religion will never be incorporated into the laws. the laws of society are one thing and they are governed by the majority of people, at least in a democratic society. but then what is law in society and acceptable can be different from someones personal beliefs. because there are so many different rules, values and beliefs that it is to divisive. a society will come to a consensuses as to what is right or wrong, acceptable or not. but what may be law in one society is not in another and religion is not always the reason. what may be acceptable here is not elsewhere. that doesn't mean its wrong. the law may say for example that you shouldn't steal but the society deprives people of things to the point where they may steal to survive. where as the laws of god may say the same but also will try and help hence we have many religious charities picking up the pieces and helping them to survive. many laws we bring in that we think are right end up causing other problems in society. for example we may say everyone has equal rights but then this becomes another problem of defiance and leads to other problems with the law. i guess what im saying is even though you say you want to take religion out of the law making process there are many examples where our ability to do it on a non religious basis is failing as well. what we think is wright according to us leads to other problems and in the long run may make matters worse. you say its nonsense but as far as a living standard i dont think society has got it right either so far. if you look at many christian organizations i think you will find a pretty good level of behavior and law keeping.

Which is why I would advocate a universal, tried and tested method for assessing the truth of things....it's called the Scientific Method. And it doesn't matter what your cultural background is.......it works the same way for everybody...!

im not sure i understand this concept. how can you put a scientific equation on truth. what is truth in one culture maybe different in another. in a court of law they have a process to find the truth yet so many people have been convicted unfairly. the truth is compromised by many factors which are there and allowed because we have allowed them.

Ummm.....tell me again about you NOT following any religion...?

yes well this is where it becomes contentious. man made religion as in morons, Jehovah witness, Islam, Scientology ect are that man made just like a political system or a club of some sort. they have injected their interpretation and added their version. faith in Christ as was the original movement of the holy spirit working amongst people is different. Jesus sat among the poor and outcast and didn't judge them but accepted them and showed the example of how to live but he also pointed out the hypocrisy of the law makers who had other selfish intentions. now we see churches making lots of money and keeping most for themselves. they are no better than some corporation who wants things and are looking after themselves.

And that 'truth' only holds for Christians. What good is it for the majority of the world's population who DON'T hold to that philosophy...?

there is the truths of this world and there are the eternal truths of god. that's going back to what i was saying before what a society believes is true and right or a country believes the same can be different for each according to their culture and what they deem as acceptable. the truth of god is the same today, yesterday and tomorrow it doesn't change and it is above all else. so as we try to find that truth according to the laws we make and the acceptable things we allow we may find that it leads to other problems that may make it worse. so we reevaluate them and adjust them and it goes on.

if you think back to years ago when say children respected there parents more than they do today, there was a respect. even though there are other aspects with enlightenment that have made things better at the same time other things are getting out of control and other problems have arisen because of what we considered to be OK, such as now the young are saying they have the rights and it goes beyond the point of balance to unruly behavior. so the truths and laws we think are OK are fallible and lead to other problems. gods truth is the same always even if it sometimes seem unfair or out of date.

 

[biggles53]

there is the truths of this world and there are the eternal truths of god.

Which god and which "truths"...? Perhaps the "truth" that the earth is flat? That the sun orbits the earth? That diseases are caused by 'demons'? That witches exist? That a solid 'firmament' surrounds the earth?

. the truth of god is the same today, yesterday and tomorrow it doesn't change and it is above all else.

I see.........so, it's still ok to take slaves from the foreigners around us...? How about stoning adulterers..? Kill kids that are disobedient...? You still revere these "truths" that don't ever change...?

so as we try to find that truth according to the laws we make and the acceptable things we allow we may find that it leads to other problems that may make it worse. so we reevaluate them and adjust them and it goes on.

Indeed we do. And our societies have improved in direct proportion to the rate that we have jettisoned those "never changing" rules of gods...!

Ask yourself a simple question Steve......would you rather live in relatively secular Australia, or in Saudi Arabia.....or Iran.....or Syria.....or the Bible Belt of the US...?

if you think back to years ago when say children respected there parents more than they do today, there was a respect.

Socrates used to complain about the same thing...........2500 years ago...!

even though there are other aspects with enlightenment that have made things better at the same time other things are getting out of control and other problems have arisen because of what we considered to be OK, such as now the young are saying they have the rights and it goes beyond the point of balance to unruly behavior.

So, why not do as your Bible demands.......and put them to death...!?

so the truths and laws we think are OK are fallible and lead to other problems.

And that's why we change them when we deem it appropriate.......why do you have a problem with making changes when it becomes necessary...?

gods truth is the same always even if it sometimes seem unfair or out of date.

And that's the problem............among many others......

 

[stevevw]

Which god and which "truths"...? Perhaps the "truth" that the earth is flat? That the sun orbits the earth? That diseases are caused by 'demons'? That witches exist? That a solid 'firmament' surrounds the earth?

Christ said i am the way the truth and the light no one can come to the father unless through me. Those statements you make come from man himself, my belief doesn't say that diseases are caused by demons. Those were made when people of the church tried to control society. man made ideals mixed with religion. religion is a man made thing. that doesn't mean that by having faith you dont allow medicine to do its job.

back then people had less knowledge about things. even non religious sectors thought that way. IE that man couldn't fly it was only for the birds. that the natives of australia were strange beasts and not human.

I see.........so, it's still ok to take slaves from the foreigners around us...? How about stoning adulterers..? Kill kids that are disobedient...? You still revere these "truths" that don't ever change...?

These are from a religion that lives in the stone age. it has been made by man and misinterpreted by man. does my religion do that, do the Christians of today stone people. no they help people, they are throughout the world taking care of the needy.

Indeed we do. And our societies have improved in direct proportion to the rate that we have jettisoned those "never changing" rules of gods...!

that is up for dispute. some societies are getting out of control. uprisings are happening. many young are committing suicide, drug and alcohol abuse is increasing, many wars, many organized crime. it seems the more we move away from our morals the more we are having problems. we have no morals, its anything goes, the rights of individuals has gone overboard to the point of defiance. it has become a me generation and we want more while others are poor. the 3rd world countries want what we have and the world is becoming overpopulated. we are destroying the planet with our want for things. many have no health cover and a small amount of rich have it all while many suffer. in times gone by a community would help each other and there was a care for all. the need to have things wasn't so great.

in a time when we have all the creature comforts and tech to do almost anything at the same time many people are suffering and committing suicide. depression and mental illness is increasing.

Ask yourself a simple question Steve......would you rather live in relatively secular Australia, or in Saudi Arabia.....or Iran.....or Syria.....or the Bible Belt of the US...?

they are all mans version of what they think religion is. they have twisted it mixed with their own ideas. what they practice is not Christianity. in australia where i live Christianity works just fine. many help people and do a lot of good work.

Socrates used to complain about the same thing...........2500 years ago...!


So, why not do as your Bible demands.......and put them to death...!?

Put who to death. the new testemnet doesnt say anything about putting someone to death. Christ forgave people and they put him to death.

And that's why we change them when we deem it appropriate.......why do you have a problem with making changes when it becomes necessary...?


And that's the problem............among many others......

Cant remeber what i said as it doesnt come up. i will have to come back to this.

 

[stevevw]

Which god and which "truths"...? Perhaps the "truth" that the earth is flat? That the sun orbits the earth? That diseases are caused by 'demons'? That witches exist? That a solid 'firmament' surrounds the earth?



I see.........so, it's still ok to take slaves from the foreigners around us...? How about stoning adulterers..? Kill kids that are disobedient...? You still revere these "truths" that don't ever change...?



Indeed we do. And our societies have improved in direct proportion to the rate that we have jettisoned those "never changing" rules of gods...!

Ask yourself a simple question Steve......would you rather live in relatively secular Australia, or in Saudi Arabia.....or Iran.....or Syria.....or the Bible Belt of the US...?



Socrates used to complain about the same thing...........2500 years ago...!



So, why not do as your Bible demands.......and put them to death...!?



And that's why we change them when we deem it appropriate.......why do you have a problem with making changes when it becomes necessary...?



And that's the problem............among many others......

what this means that society is always changing what is right and what is wrong. what is acceptable and what is not. that's because they will bring in a law or a policy because another law or policy is failing. so they try to remedy this with what they think is right. this later is found not to work and has brought other problems so they change adjust it again.

society dictates what is acceptable, the do gooders step in and say it should be this way and that way, they make new rules to accommodate this because the last one s weren't working and it goes on. if you look at the laws of our societies they are becoming more and more complicated to accommodate this and that. then when its settled its compromised because we find another way around it and its all watered down again.

The truth of god and his laws are the same today yesterday and tomorrow. they can be relied on they dont change and are not compromised. the only time they are is when man steps in and adds his own stuff.

 

[Naraoia]

The truth of god and his laws are the same today yesterday and tomorrow. they can be relied on they dont change and are not compromised. the only time they are is when man steps in and adds his own stuff.

Honestly, this sounds like you didn't even read what Biggles wrote.

 

[stevevw]

Honestly, this sounds like you didn't even read what Biggles wrote.

Yes i did i am the one having the conversation. did you read the rest of the conversation. In fact i got side tracked from another conversation i was having with someone else. Plus i must be attracting all the atheists and evolutionist as i haven't spoken to one christian yet. Not that i mind, its like 5 against 1 now.

Biggles was talking about well there were several topics at the one time. I said gods truth is always the same and that societies truths and laws always change. i understand things change and are adjusted i think he was saying, yes that's what happens so what that's part and parcel of how it is, that's life. we find that its not working and we improve it.

What i am saying is because we rely on our own judgements as to what is right and wrong we always end up compromising it or what we think is OK and right sometimes ends up creating other problems. IE we know it is wrong to sexually abuse and there are laws. but we then allow sexual content to be acceptable in society such as provocative images on catwalks and in movies and music. We promote it in others ways and so it gets worse in other ways like the young now on social media copying this with selfies and the growing pedophilia that is happening. so on the one hand we make the laws and then allow other things that seem to promote this sort of thinking. hence this waters down what we were trying take a stand on and this goes the same for a lot of things. Over time we think we have dealt with one problem and it pops back up and new ones are created because we didn't deal with it properly in the first place. Why because we are doing it according to mans version of what is right and true not gods.

So we are sending mixed messages about what is truth and right because we have no moral compass to guide us. The moral compass has is blurred and people have no real example of what is true and right.
it seems to be getting worse with organized crime, people smuggling, child exploitation, the internet and inappropriate contentography, more massacres, more mental illness, depression, suicide, breakdowns in families, drugs and alcohol. corporate rip offs, many different scams, poor health systems, more people going hungry in the western world, people rising up and riots ect.

Where as gods truth and laws are the same always and i am referring to the teachings of Christ if you are wondering, not some extreme man made religion that allows killing and all sorts of stuff.

But if i have misunderstood what Biggles was saying then please explain. Maybe its just a miscommunication thing.



Actually noticed a few atheists on here and i was wondering what you believe. do you believe in life after death. how do you judge what is right and what is wrong.

 

[Loudmouth]

Where as gods truth and laws are the same always and i am referring to the teachings of Christ if you are wondering, not some extreme man made religion that allows killing and all sorts of stuff.

You seem to confusing consistency with morality. Saying the same thing over and over does not make it moral. Also, obeying rules that someone has written down is not morality. That is just obedience. In the words of Nazi war criminals, "I was just following orders" is not an excuse for committing atrocities.

Also, christianity is as man made as any other religion.

Actually noticed a few atheists on here and i was wondering what you believe. do you believe in life after death. how do you judge what is right and what is wrong.

I use empathy, reason, and experience to guide me. I try to put myself in other peoples' shoes and try to understand how I would feel in their place. I believe that people should be free, as long as their actions do not stop others from being free. I believe that treating others with kindness is a noble goal. I believe that we should pass on knowledge to the next generation. I believe that ridding ourselves of ignorance, prejudice, and bigotry is also a noble goal.

 

[stevevw]

You seem to confusing consistency with morality. Saying the same thing over and over does not make it moral. Also, obeying rules that someone has written down is not morality. That is just obedience. In the words of Nazi war criminals, "I was just following orders" is not an excuse for committing atrocities.

But are not the rules and laws made from what our values and morals are. Not just the law but what we consider is ok in day to day life. hiltlers laws and morality was made from him which many followed in Germany just as we make them in our societies.

Also, christianity is as man made as any other religion.

Well Christ is the original start of Christianity and he was a man and god so it wasn't man made. i mean man made in the sense that a man comes along and changes the original beliefs and adds all the things in that have been used as an example of how bad religion is. If you look at the teachings of Christ they dont say all those things. they simply point to a way of life that is good and is a good example of how to live.

I use empathy, reason, and experience to guide me. I try to put myself in other peoples' shoes and try to understand how I would feel in their place. I believe that people should be free, as long as their actions do not stop others from being free. I believe that treating others with kindness is a noble goal. I believe that we should pass on knowledge to the next generation. I believe that ridding ourselves of ignorance, prejudice, and bigotry is also a noble goal.

I agree with all those sentiments but where did you get them from. What you interpret is not what the next person will think. That's why im saying if you leave it up to man then there will be many versions of what you are saying. you may believe that but society as a whole has many factors which dont allow this to happen. you use these qualities but you must have a guiding reference for where you get them from. society as a whole comes to the consensus as to what is right and wrong and that guides you as well. if you left it up to individuals then you would have many different versions and have divided behaviors. there has to be a guiding set of values.
Saying you believe that people should be free can also allow many other things to happen which cause other problems like that freedom is turned into people taking it overboard and interpreting it as its OK to do all sorts of things as long as they dont affect others. but in the long run it does affect others. What we consider freedom and our rights 20 years ago have lead to other problems like women's lib was a reaction against women being treated as 2nd class citizens. Everyone agrees this was unfair but it has gone from that to the other extreme in ways and now men are feeling hard done by. A bit like reverse discrimination.

 

[biggles53]

I agree with all those sentiments but where did you get them from. What you interpret is not what the next person will think. That's why im saying if you leave it up to man then there will be many versions of what you are saying. you may believe that but society as a whole has many factors which dont allow this to happen. you use these qualities but you must have a guiding reference for where you get them from. society as a whole comes to the consensus as to what is right and wrong and that guides you as well. if you left it up to individuals then you would have many different versions and have divided behaviors. there has to be a guiding set of values.
Saying you believe that people should be free can also allow many other things to happen which cause other problems like that freedom is turned into people taking it overboard and interpreting it as its OK to do all sorts of things as long as they dont affect others. but in the long run it does affect others. What we consider freedom and our rights 20 years ago have lead to other problems like women's lib was a reaction against women being treated as 2nd class citizens. Everyone agrees this was unfair but it has gone from that to the other extreme in ways and now men are feeling hard done by. A bit like reverse discrimination.

Steve, I've got a really simple test for you to determine what you really believe, and where you get that belief from....

You make it clear that you admire your god's unchanging morality.......OK, answer me this, as honestly as you can...

If you were absolutely convinced that your god wanted you to kill your own child, would you be prepared to do it....?

If you answer 'no', you would be in accordance with most other human beings on this planet.....you would defy your god in favour of the care and love and concern for your child...

If you answer 'yes', you would most likely be diagnosed as a psychopathic monster.............but, you would also qualify as the founder of 3 of the world's great religions....!

Which way you gonna jump....?

 

[stevevw]

Steve, I've got a really simple test for you to determine what you really believe, and where you get that belief from....

You make it clear that you admire your god's unchanging morality.......OK, answer me this, as honestly as you can...

If you were absolutely convinced that your god wanted you to kill your own child, would you be prepared to do it....?

If you answer 'no', you would be in accordance with most other human beings on this planet.....you would defy your god in favour of the care and love and concern for your child...

If you answer 'yes', you would most likely be diagnosed as a psychopathic monster.............but, you would also qualify as the founder of 3 of the world's great religions....!

Which way you gonna jump....?

well lets see, damned if i do and damned if i dont. god had asked Abraham to sacrifice his only son Issac and this was a reflection of the coming sacrifice of Jesus gods only begotten son as the prophesy said. there are several scriptures in the old testament and the new testament which show the similarities of both Issac and Jesus sacrifice. ie sacrificed on a hill, only begotten son and took donkey ride to sacrifice plus many others that show the similarities. this was the events that were leading to the fullfillment of the prophecy. the old testament was fullfilled by the death of christ on the cross. the doing away with the sacrifices fro sins as they were taken away by the crucifixion and resurrection of jesus.

Now if god had spoken to me then i guess i would be the same. we are not talking about a man asking me but god himself. so if god himself was asking me its completely different to a man. if i had that happen then wouldn't you firstly be in awe and realize the significance. so what you are asking is vexed in the first place. you are trying to have the best of both worlds. make me answer it in terms of this reality and i will look like a mad man. yet what you are asking is no different as to what if you really seen a ghost people would think you mad but to you you really seen one. if you dont believe in god then from your perspective its unreal but from someone who believes its completely different. If i beleived and knew that it was something that god required for a greater purpose then it is in a different context than how we would be viewing it from a human perspective. Considering that we are talking about the saving of our souls which is eternity as opposed to the short time hear on this earth. I would rather myself and my son live in eternity than have 70 years or so hear and be lost forever.

 

[biggles53]

well lets see, damned if i do and damned if i dont. god had asked Abraham to sacrifice his only son Issac and this was a reflection of the coming sacrifice of Jesus gods only begotten son as the prophesy said. there are several scriptures in the old testament and the new testament which show the similarities of both Issac and Jesus sacrifice. ie sacrificed on a hill, only begotten son and took donkey ride to sacrifice plus many others that show the similarities. this was the events that were leading to the fullfillment of the prophecy. the old testament was fullfilled by the death of christ on the cross. the doing away with the sacrifices fro sins as they were taken away by the crucifixion and resurrection of jesus.

Now if god had spoken to me then i guess i would be the same. we are not talking about a man asking me but god himself. so if god himself was asking me its completely different to a man. if i had that happen then wouldn't you firstly be in awe and realize the significance. so what you are asking is vexed in the first place. you are trying to have the best of both worlds. make me answer it in terms of this reality and i will look like a mad man. yet what you are asking is no different as to what if you really seen a ghost people would think you mad but to you you really seen one. if you dont believe in god then from your perspective its unreal but from someone who believes its completely different. If i beleived and knew that it was something that god required for a greater purpose then it is in a different context than how we would be viewing it from a human perspective. Considering that we are talking about the saving of our souls which is eternity as opposed to the short time hear on this earth. I would rather myself and my son live in eternity than have 70 years or so hear and be lost forever.

That's a rather large bush you're beating around............why do you find the question difficult to answer?

Would you kill your son if you believed your god had commanded it....?

 

[FatBurk]

Considering that we are talking about the saving of our souls which is eternity as opposed to the short time hear on this earth. I would rather myself and my son live in eternity than have 70 years or so hear and be lost forever.

That has got to be one of the saddest things I have ever read.

 

[stevevw]

That has got to be one of the saddest things I have ever read.

Haven't you read any books on the holocaust thats sad.

another one gee i cant keep up. this is fun i think.

Why if eternity was true wouldn't you want to live in what god has in store, no suffering, no sorrow, no hatred.

Its all relative, what if you and your son lived in one of the countries where you suffered day in day out. What is your life worth then, depends how long you live for in those conditions maybe 40 years, 25 years. So all they have on this planet is suffering and then die and then nothing. what if you had some disease and you couldn't live a happy and pain free life or you were an outcast in your own society because you dont fit in. Each day is miserable and you live for 50 years and someone has to wipe your ass and feed you.

It all depends where you end up not everyone has a decent life like us. We can say ill do this and that and enjoy ourselves. Have food and a comfortable life but they dont. I bet they cant wait for it to end. So that's all they get 40 or 50 years of hell on this planet and then nothing. That's what evolution says doesn't it that after 70 years or so we die and then nothing. So make the most of it now it will go in the blink of an eye. Ask the old dears that are near the end of their lives carrying their decaying bodies around, dribbling and being tended to for everything in life and in pain. Most just want it to end.

If this is all we have then we better start going for it because this is it. What is aspired to in society is having enough money to enjoy a higher level of life, do you envy those who have enough money to live it up like having beautiful comfortable surroundings that look good and luxurious. Don't they say money talks. So the more money you have the more comfort in life esp if you get sick. What if you haven't got enough super or health cover. Do you take the money if you haven't got it so that you can have a better life. If i had only 70 years well ive got 27 left i better start going for it, we all better start going for it.

But most of us dont, for what ever reason, we live an average life. Some are lucky they live a comfortable wealthy life but there's a lot that live a horrible and miserable life and that's all they've got. In fact it would be better if there were less people as its a threat to our survival according to survival of the fittest. The world is over populated and now the poorer people want what we have so we will pollute and destroy the world even faster than we are now.

They say that soon, sooner than you think we will hit critical points with energy and food. We are using this planet up at a phenomenal rate compared to eternity. A report says humanity would need 5 planets to live like in the US and we do here in australia probably more. We will have to find as much resources as we have ever used on this planet ever to live the same for the next 25 years. That's land, food, oil, everything and that's only if we grow at 3%. The more we want to grow above 3% the faster it will go. Yet economies strive for 5 and 6% double that because we want a comfortable life style. Now the 3rd world countries want it too. We brag about strong growth but if people only knew what that actually means. So how long before the cracks start to appear. i think its already happening.

Climate change, world economies starting to crumble. People are worried and their rising up. it will only take a few massive disasters like the one in the Philippines to tip it over the edge. people are worried about their security and people are losing their lives savings, gone all that work for nothing. Just about everyone i talk to says the same whether they are a believer or not. Even without being a believer you have to say we are getting closer to a critical point.

So we better start cracking as this is all we have. But then it doesn't matter because there's nothing at the end anyway, we wont remember. No one will remember we ever existed when its all gone, it will be as though we never existed so it doesn't matter.

Maybe we are the perfect evolved animal. We are at the top of the tree the most survived and adapted animal that has ever evolved greater than all other animals. We are so evolved we maybe the first and only animals to have the ability to destroy ourselves and didn't do anything about it. In the end the whole theory back fired on itself and the most adapted animal didn't adapt and in going down he took out all the other species along the way. The other species didn't have a chance because we needed their habitats so that we could adapt and survive a little longer.

I'm so glad there is an after life as this ones going down pretty fast. I only hope my son and i get to live with god as im not sure he will have much left on this planet anyway.
Sorry if i rave on but i get passionate some times.

Just as an after thought what do you believe happens when we die.

 

[FatBurk]

Just as an after thought what do you believe happens when we die.

Absolutely nothing, we will be dead, we won't even know we are dead because we will be dead and all of our brain functions will have ceased, we are animals just like all the other animals on this planet and we will die just like all the other animals.
I wish I could live forever but it's just not going to happen, me, you and them are all going to die, just because we can imagine a heaven means less than nothing because there is no God, heaven or hell outside of our own minds.
You asked so I told you, if it helps you to believe something else you are free to do so and I wish you well.

Do you believe that just because you believe something it comes true? why would you believe that?

 

[biggles53]

Steve.....are you able to answer a question directly....?

if you believed your god was commanding you to kill your son, WOULD YOU BE PREPARED TO DO IT.....!?

 

[EternalDragon]

Absolutely nothing, we will be dead, we won't even know we are dead because we will be dead and all of our brain functions will have ceased, we are animals just like all the other animals on this planet and we will die just like all the other animals.
I wish I could live forever but it's just not going to happen, me, you and them are all going to die, just because we can imagine a heaven means less than nothing because there is no God, heaven or hell outside of our own minds.
You asked so I told you, if it helps you to believe something else you are free to do so and I wish you well.

Do you believe that just because you believe something it comes true? why would you believe that?

What if God came to earth and presented himself as God by many proofs? Or rather sent himself to earth in a form we could view and understand?

Also, you seem quite sure about what happens after we die yet no one (except someone named in the bible) came back to tell about it. How are you so certain? How do you know that we just cease to exist?

 

[Subduction Zone]

What if God came to earth and presented himself as God by many proofs? Or rather sent himself to earth in a form we could view and understand?

Also, you seem quite sure about what happens after we die yet no one (except someone named in the bible) came back to tell about it. How are you so certain? How do you know that we just cease to exist?

If a god did that I think that most atheists would accept the evidence.

By the way, why do you assume that it will be your god and not another? It could be Allah, Buddha, The FSM, or countless other gods. What makes your version of god the correct one?

 

[Subduction Zone]

And one more question for E.D, since I was honest enough to answer yours:

What if this God came to the Earth and it was clear that it was not the Christian God?

Same conditions that you stated please.