A Complete Skull from Dmanisi

[stevevw]

Steve.....are you able to answer a question directly....?

if you believed your god was commanding you to kill your son, WOULD YOU BE PREPARED TO DO IT.....!?

i did answer it if you read the post. i said if it was god then i guess i would do the same because it was god asking not man and there would have been a greater purpose.

 

[stevevw]

Absolutely nothing, we will be dead, we won't even know we are dead because we will be dead and all of our brain functions will have ceased, we are animals just like all the other animals on this planet and we will die just like all the other animals.
I wish I could live forever but it's just not going to happen, me, you and them are all going to die, just because we can imagine a heaven means less than nothing because there is no God, heaven or hell outside of our own minds.
You asked so I told you, if it helps you to believe something else you are free to do so and I wish you well.

Do you believe that just because you believe something it comes true? why would you believe that?

so i guess those who have a horrible and miserable existence have the raw end of the deal. so if that's the case why dont we just go for it. lets make the most of it and take it from others so that we will have a better life while we can. if there is nothing why does it matter anyway because there are no consequences for our behaviors and actions in the end. if i could find a way to steal or scam money and get away with it then i would do it so that i could go and live the high life and make my existence here so much more fun and more comfortable. why because in the end it doesn't matter, we wont remember, there is not repercussions after death so it doesn't matter. 70 years will go so quick, i am in my 50s so i may only have less than half the time i have already spent here on earth. i think back on my life and its gone so quick. if it all means nothing then why dont we kill all the old and people suffering and put them out of their misery because it wont matter we would be actually doing them a favor. there will be no consequences for murder in the after life.

 

[biggles53]

i did answer it if you read the post. i said if it was god then i guess i would do the same because it was god asking not man and there would have been a greater purpose.

I'm taking that as a 'yes'.......

Ccongratulations........you've just joined the terrorist club...!

 

[stevevw]

That's a rather large bush you're beating around............why do you find the question difficult to answer?

Would you kill your son if you believed your god had commanded it....?

Its a large bush because its a vexed question. You want an answer according to the circumstances of what you think and have set. That its one man asking another. Yet we have a divine god involved in the first place with a divine purpose which takes it out of that realm in the first place. So it goes beyond normal reason because God had intervened to make it a divine request. Its like would anyone sacrifice a person for the betterment of mankind if we needed to send someone to do something that was going cause them to die but because of their actions it saved mankind. We sacrifice our sons to war all the time.

 

[stevevw]

I'm taking that as a 'yes'.......

Ccongratulations........you've just joined the terrorist club...!

See there you go again. Now im a terrorist as well as all the other things you have called me. If you sacrifice your son to go to war to protect your way of living and bring peace are you a terrorists. A terrorist works through hate and revenge and destroying people. There are no good intentions at all. You seem to pick out and twist things to suit your argument and take it completely out of context.

 

[biggles53]

See there you go again. Now im a terrorist as well as all the other things you have called me.

Close, but not quite what I said......

I said you have joined the terrorist club, meaning that you have the same justification for murdering your son as they would give for blowing themselves and their victims to smithereens....namely, that they were obeying the commandments of their god.....! This is what you said you were prepared to do....to kill an innocent child, simply because you believed that your god wished you to do so. The terrorist has exactly the same justification.....there is no difference between the two of you on this basis...! The terrorist ignores your god and you ignore his, so what's the difference....?

If you sacrifice your son to go to war to protect your way of living and bring peace are you a terrorists.

Oh no you don't.....! You're not going to cowardly slide out of it by pretending you are sending your son off to war......at least have the courage of your convictions...! I asked you if you would kill your son, and you said you would.......be honest!

A terrorist works through hate and revenge and destroying people. There are no good intentions at all. You seem to pick out and twist things to suit your argument and take it completely out of context.

I can see it makes you uncomfortable Steve....and so it should...!

Now, here's the follow-up question.......see if you can do better...

We've established that you would murder your child if your god commanded it, but how would you be sure that your god actually wanted you to do this..? In other words, I guess I'm asking how you can be sure when your god is communicating with you?

 

[biggles53]

Its a large bush because its a vexed question. You want an answer according to the circumstances of what you think and have set. That its one man asking another. Yet we have a divine god involved in the first place with a divine purpose which takes it out of that realm in the first place. So it goes beyond normal reason because God had intervened to make it a divine request. Its like would anyone sacrifice a person for the betterment of mankind if we needed to send someone to do something that was going cause them to die but because of their actions it saved mankind. We sacrifice our sons to war all the time.

Ummm.....let me remind you of the story of Abraham and Isaac...

Abraham was commanded by his god to sacrifice his son. It was NOT a command to send him off to war, it was NOT a call to "save mankind".......it was a test devised by your 'loving' god.....it was a test of Abraham's faith in his god...!

So, let's be a little honest.....let's not try to occupy the moral high ground by imagining some higher cause that your god was supposedly working towards........this was nothing other than a cruel, pointless exercise devised by your god in order to watch a man driven to the limits of his devotion to his child....!

And you worship this monster.......!?

 

[USincognito]

Folks.

This is the Creation and Evolution subforum. Apologetics are not appropriate for this subforum.

This thread is about hominid skulls and human evolution. Apologetics are off-topic for this thread.

 

[biggles53]

Folks.

This is the Creation and Evolution subforum. Apologetics are not appropriate for this subforum.

This thread is about hominid skulls and human evolution. Apologetics are off-topic for this thread.

Fair enough...........it's just that whenever I see an unoccupied soapbox.......

 

[stevevw]

Close, but not quite what I said......

I said you have joined the terrorist club, meaning that you have the same justification for murdering your son as they would give for blowing themselves and their victims to smithereens....namely, that they were obeying the commandments of their god.....! This is what you said you were prepared to do....to kill an innocent child, simply because you believed that your god wished you to do so. The terrorist has exactly the same justification.....there is no difference between the two of you on this basis...! The terrorist ignores your god and you ignore his, so what's the difference....?

The quaran and the bible do not say to go and kill people in the name of god. You are once again twisting it. Point to me where the teachings of Christ say to kill people. Abraham was the father of isreal and many other great things happened that were out of the ordinary. Are you comparing me to Abraham, you used Abraham and his son as an example and if you look at the events of Abraham and his dealings with god they are extraordinary. He had a direct contact with god, there was no misunderstanding god spoke to him directly. It wasn't in his imagination and it wasn't something that could have been mistaken for something else if you read the story and the events around it.

Other events like the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah and the establishment of the nation of Israel came through Abraham. So this wasn't some ordinary person or a terrorist or me or you. These events changed and affected history and whether you believe the bible or not you have to say he was a significant person in the story of the events leading to the death and resurrection of Christ. it was through his line that lead to Jesus and changed the world forever.

So to try and link terrorists and a mere man with Abraham is wrong. Are terrorists Abraham who is recognized in their religion as well. No they are men who twist the truth and misinterpret the bible. Abraham didnt want to do and he cried out to the lord not to so. It wasn't as if he knew it was hard and didn't seem fair. He also seen angles and men surrounded by god that gave him instruction such as his wife would have another child which they thought was impossible at their age. Through his line the nation of Israel was established which was the end result of his faith and the convanent with god. An angle called to him and there was a ram caught in a bush which was sacrificed instead. God said because of your faith I will surely bless you and make your descendants as numerous as the stars in the sky and as the sand on the seashore. Your descendants will take possession of the cities of their enemies, and through your offspring all nations on earth will be blessed, because you have obeyed Me.

So its pretty significant isn't it. the situation with Abraham never hurt any one it actually was a great thing that brought good to mankind. Terrorist do no such thing, there is no justification, it doesn't lead to any good just more death and destruction. The end results of the actions is what will determine whether it was from god or not and any results from terrorism shows no signs it comes from god. Just because they say its so doesn't mean its true.






Oh no you don't.....! You're not going to cowardly slide out of it by pretending you are sending your son off to war......at least have the courage of your convictions...! I asked you if you would kill your son, and you said you would.......be honest!

Well at the end of the day there will be no example as we are talking about the intervention of god to Abraham with angels he could see so no example can produce that. the events that happened because of Abraham and the influence he had is proof in itself that this was no ordinary situation. But if you consider that you are sending someone into certain death in war or any dangerous situation there are still similarities in the sense it is for a greater good. But once again i have to stress that Abraham situation was no ordinary situation. No terrorists actions have resulted in changing history for the better or will go down in history as a significant history changing event that lead to the savior of mankind.


I can see it makes you uncomfortable Steve....and so it should...!

It doesn't i can see where your coming from and i am quite happy to deal with it the best i can. The fact is at the end of the day i love and take care of my children. So even though i have these beliefs doesn't make me a terrorists as the proof is in that my children are treated good and i do everything to make then happy and healthy. Terrorist also treat people badly and their lives are full of harsh treatments towards others not that they just kill people through terrorism.

Now, here's the follow-up question.......see if you can do better...

We've established that you would murder your child if your god commanded it, but how would you be sure that your god actually wanted you to do this..? In other words, I guess I'm asking how you can be sure when your god is communicating with you?

As i said god spoke to Abraham and there were extraordinary things happening such as angels appearing. so if this was the case dont you think that it would be obvious. The events that followed proved that what abraham had done was correct in that it established the nation of Isreal and lead to the coming of Christ. the similarities with Abraham and his son and god and his son Jesus are obvious. I am just mere man but if god did it that way then i would know for sure. But these events were leading to Christ and his sacrifice on the cross and his resurrection. This was the new covenant god has with us and it was the final act that done away with all others to allow us to come to the father. In the book of acts jesus said that he would send the holy spirit and this would guide us.

How we determine what is right and how we should behave is through the holy spirit. The instruction we will have from the holy spirit is determined by the teachings of Christ as it is Christ and it is god. So all your actions are governed by the holy spirit and should agree with the teachings of Christ and as far as i know the teachings of Christ dont say kill others through hatred. They speak of the very opposite.

 

[biggles53]

As i said god spoke to Abraham and there were extraordinary things happening such as angels appearing. so if this was the case dont you think that it would be obvious. The events that followed proved that what abraham had done was correct in that it established the nation of Isreal and lead to the coming of Christ. the similarities with Abraham and his son and god and his son Jesus are obvious. I am just mere man but if god did it that way then i would know for sure. But these events were leading to Christ and his sacrifice on the cross and his resurrection. This was the new covenant god has with us and it was the final act that done away with all others to allow us to come to the father. In the book of acts jesus said that he would send the holy spirit and this would guide us.

How we determine what is right and how we should behave is through the holy spirit. The instruction we will have from the holy spirit is determined by the teachings of Christ as it is Christ and it is god. So all your actions are governed by the holy spirit and should agree with the teachings of Christ and as far as i know the teachings of Christ dont say kill others through hatred. They speak of the very opposite.

You aren't very good at straight answers Steve....

How would you know that your god definitely wanted you to kill your son...?

How would you know that you hadn't imagined it, or that you weren't having a delusion, etc...?

 

[FatBurk]

so i guess those who have a horrible and miserable existence have the raw end of the deal. so if that's the case why dont we just go for it. lets make the most of it and take it from others so that we will have a better life while we can. if there is nothing why does it matter anyway because there are no consequences for our behaviors and actions in the end. if i could find a way to steal or scam money and get away with it then i would do it so that i could go and live the high life and make my existence here so much more fun and more comfortable. why because in the end it doesn't matter, we wont remember, there is not repercussions after death so it doesn't matter. 70 years will go so quick, i am in my 50s so i may only have less than half the time i have already spent here on earth. i think back on my life and its gone so quick. if it all means nothing then why dont we kill all the old and people suffering and put them out of their misery because it wont matter we would be actually doing them a favor. there will be no consequences for murder in the after life.

Where do you get this idea that there are no consequences? there are consequences, the reason we all don't go out and steal from others is because we live in a society that would lock you up if you did,
we built that society to allow us to live a life free from things like that, I don't punch you because you will punch me back and if you can't you will get someone who can, is that anyway to live a life?

According to your dogma if Hitler and Stalin had gone to a church before they died and begged forgiveness from God they would have been forgiven and allowed into heaven when they died, what would have been their punishment? none,
so please don't use 'no consequences or no repercussions' as an argument.

The Scandinavian countries are mostly secular and they are the most harmonious countries in the world where people live and let live, they look out for their less fortunate countrymen, unlike the God fearing US where it seems to be a dog eat dog law of the jungle way of living.

 

[USincognito]

Folks.

This is the Creation and Evolution subforum. Apologetics are not appropriate for this subforum.

This thread is about hominid skulls and human evolution. Apologetics are off-topic for this thread.

Hitler, Stalin and Scandnavian countries are not the topic of this thread nor appropriate subjects for discussion in this subforum.

 

[FatBurk]

Hitler, Stalin and Scandnavian countries are not the topic of this thread nor appropriate subjects for discussion in this subforum.

Perhaps you're right it is off topic.
When you say 'Hitler, Stalin and Scandinavian countries are not appropriate subjects for discussion in this sub-forum' what do you mean?

 

[Shemjaza]

Perhaps you're right it is off topic.
When you say 'Hitler, Stalin and Scandinavian countries are not appropriate subjects for discussion in this sub-forum' what do you mean?

In that they do not relate to Evolution and Creation in general, and to Homo erectus skulls in particular.

 

[stevevw]

You aren't very good at straight answers Steve....

How would you know that your god definitely wanted you to kill your son...?

How would you know that you hadn't imagined it, or that you weren't having a delusion, etc...?

Well so i like to rabble on a bit so what doesn't matter. I'm sorry i cant help it i just like going into a little background for context. Its like a trick to catch me and if and im sort of damned if i do and damned if i dont.

Surely though despite you saying that i haven't answered that. Surely some part of it must have answered that for you.

OK you used the story of Abraham as the example. the story of Abraham involved amazing things that would not happen today like the angel appearing ect ive already explained that. I said yes i would but dont you think anyone would if they saw the angel of god.

Then you changed the question along the way to a different set of circumstances, now its me a mere man. As i said through the holy spirit and the teachings of Christ. I am guided by what Christ said. If it doesn't conform to the teaching of Christ then it aint true. so that's how i tell.

That's what i was saying at the end of my rant but i was trying to help you understand the story of Abraham and the context of why god asked him to sacrifice his son. So now the holy spirit speaks to us telling us gods will. it will always be in line with the teachings of Christ. The last time i looked the teachings of Christ dont promote killing your son or terrorist activities.

Besides there's lots of questions you can ask me like that and you may catch me out on some. Is that going to change my faith no. Probably no less that when you may find something that is harder to answer with what you believe.

But i just get this sense that there is a little more to it than wanting straight answers. to me its a bit like when the pharisees tried to trick Jesus.

Dont assume that i dont think constructively and reason. I have every bit as much reasoning as anyone. I have a brain and i use it. Do you think if someone who was like who your trying to make out, that i am a terrorist and a person who doesn't live in the real world be making all sorts of wrong decisions in their life. If i am capable of rational thinking throughout my life and dont you think i am capable of discerning what is crazy and what is not. My faith is real to me its a personal relationship with god. You will never understand unless you have faith in god and then you will know.

 

[FatBurk]

In that they do not relate to Evolution and Creation in general, and to Homo erectus skulls in particular.

Then why do creationists keep trying to say that Hitler and Stalin were Atheists as if that's what made them do the things they did? creationists don't agree that it's not related to Evolution and Creation in general otherwise they wouldn't keep referring to them.
We all know that it takes religion to make a good man do bad things.

 

[stevevw]

Well so i like to rabble on a bit so what doesn't matter. I'm sorry i cant help it i just like going into a little background for context. Its like a trick to catch me and if and im sort of damned if i do and damned if i dont.

Surely though despite you saying that i haven't answered that. Surely some part of it must have answered that for you.

OK you used the story of Abraham as the example. the story of Abraham involved amazing things that would not happen today like the angel appearing ect ive already explained that. I said yes i would but dont you think anyone would if they saw the angel of god.

Then you changed the question along the way to a different set of circumstances, now its me a mere man. As i said through the holy spirit and the teachings of Christ. I am guided by what Christ said. If it doesn't conform to the teaching of Christ then it aint true. so that's how i tell.

That's what i was saying at the end of my rant but i was trying to help you understand the story of Abraham and the context of why god asked him to sacrifice his son. So now the holy spirit speaks to us telling us gods will. it will always be in line with the teachings of Christ. The last time i looked the teachings of Christ dont promote killing your son or terrorist activities.

Besides there's lots of questions you can ask me like that and you may catch me out on some. Is that going to change my faith no. Probably no less that when you may find something that is harder to answer with what you believe.

But i just get this sense that there is a little more to it than wanting straight answers. to me its a bit like when the pharisees tried to trick Jesus.

Dont assume that i dont think constructively and reason. I have every bit as much reasoning as anyone. I have a brain and i use it. Do you think if someone who was like who your trying to make out, that i am a terrorist and a person who doesn't live in the real world be making all sorts of wrong decisions in their life. If i am capable of rational thinking throughout my life and dont you think i am capable of discerning what is crazy and what is not. My faith is real to me its a personal relationship with god. You will never understand unless you have faith in god and then you will know.

You may say i am not very good at answering straight, well you are not very good at asking straight questions.

 

[Shemjaza]

Then why do creationists keep trying to say that Hitler and Stalin were Atheists as if that's what made them do the things they did? creationists don't agree that it's not related to Evolution and Creation in general otherwise they wouldn't keep referring to them.
We all know that it takes religion to make a good man do bad things.

I can relate to be incensed with that argument style, but if you follow it you are helping the creationist derail the discussion.

Also, on this forum the "Evolution and Creation" is not the place for discussing morality and religion, and you aren't allowed to attack Christianity in general anywhere on the Christian Forums.

I think Stalin actually was an atheist, but neither of those monsters supported Darwinian evolution.

 

[stevevw]

Where do you get this idea that there are no consequences? there are consequences, the reason we all don't go out and steal from others is because we live in a society that would lock you up if you did,
we built that society to allow us to live a life free from things like that, I don't punch you because you will punch me back and if you can't you will get someone who can, is that anyway to live a life?

According to your dogma if Hitler and Stalin had gone to a church before they died and begged forgiveness from God they would have been forgiven and allowed into heaven when they died, what would have been their punishment? none,
so please don't use 'no consequences or no repercussions' as an argument.

The Scandinavian countries are mostly secular and they are the most harmonious countries in the world where people live and let live, they look out for their less fortunate countrymen, unlike the God fearing US where it seems to be a dog eat dog law of the jungle way of living.

But that dog eat dog isn't because of religion it is because of greed and making profits at the expense of people. Its OK if your fit and have a good life with a job and enough money to live a decent life. If you dont then you have to live a horrible existence your whole life and that's all you've got. We are basically selfish and it is becoming a me generation. So we are not caring for the poor and hungry and the sick and elderly properly. As you said dog eat dog and that sounds more like survival of the fittest. So in some ways evolution is in play despite our efforts and good intentions to look after everyone. Ive had my say on the worlds population and that the 3rd world countries want what we have. That we are using up this planet very quickly. The situation is getting out of hand and and we are getting closer to critical points that will challenge our way of life.

Our rules and laws get corrupted and compromised and they end up creating other problems. So our attempts at being the law makers which has nothing to do with religion is not working. Its got to do with our politicians and legislators. Its got to do with what we see as acceptable and unacceptable. We send mixed messages about what is right and what is wrong.

You may say that's why you dont punch me but there is an awful lot of fighting going on in the streets. People without are taking what they haven't got as we promote a society that has to have things. There is no clear laws they are either contradicted, compromised or watered down by corruption for personal gain. I can say the same that there are christian communities that will have good standards and behaviors and the people help others.

But that's not the point its because man has shown that he is incapable of finding any clear criteria for what is right or wrong, good or bad, acceptable or unacceptable. He corrupts what is truth and what is law. But if there are no consequences for ones ultimate life and you could find a way to get some more money to have a better life why not. Some people will not worry about the consequences its happening now. So they will enjoy the time they have here more. Id rather be living it up than plodding away breaking my back to pay the bills. We all dont have a lot of money.

I mean society is that way now they base happiness on what you have, everybody wants things. Business want to sell things, companies want to make profits at people expense. So its already happening. I'm just saying if there are no repercussions at the end what does it really matter. If there is a judgement and the promise of eternal life at the end of this life then it means there is a reason to live a good life and that things of this life wont matter so much.

I am not a judge on who will be saved and who wont be and you use an extreme example of Hitler. So what if you son was bad towards you and he was on his death bed crying for forgiveness would you forgive him. My father wasn't a religious man but on his death bed we prayed and as it says in the bible where there are 2 or more in my name i will be there with you. During the prayer my father who was 3/4s blind suddenly focused and looked toward the ceiling and the light and look on his face was as though he had seen god himself. So i like to think he seen god that day and was saved.

There is a parable in the bible that talked about who will be saved. There were 2 workers in a vineyard and the boss said for both to go and do some work at the far end of the yard. One said he would go and start and the other didn't want to work and was refusing. In the end the one that said he would start took off and the one that was refusing changed his mind and decided to work. So you dont know who will be saved and who wont.

Anyway as i have found out im probably going off the forum topic and should move onto something that's more to do with what the actual topic is about, which is a complete skull found at Dmansi. I dont want to push my luck or labour on it.