Responding to WHY were they not healed

[Truthfrees]

You know, I've got to say this is one of the best responses I've read. Although those who are grieving are asking the 'why' questions, they won't necessarily be ready to receive any answers even if they are based in fact and Scriptural truth.

Taking the issue, (which is the hurt from the loss, disappointment, etc) and turning it over to the LORD to speak to their hearts personally... Wow. Elegantly simple, and far better than trying to answer a person in the midst of grief. As long as the answer isn't "God took them", "It was just their time" or "God just needed another angel" lines of unbelief and crap... I am certain that God will help sort it out for them.

He sure does.

 

[now faith]

First off I believe God has healed ALL our sicknesses but as you know WOF folks die of sicknesses all the time while they say they are believing on that truth.


If youbelieve God has healed all of our sickness past tense why would you assume its not for everyone or up to Gods discretion,God is not a respected of persons and what has been done God does not Change.


Yup - Hobart Freeman was "Taken out" by a easily treatable infection that Hobart "Knew in FAITH" was healed - until it killed him, of course.


Maybe he was to ignorant to accept the cure or had a delusion for the cure.
We do not question how we are healed be it faith,miracle,or medicine that is a common misconception about WOF.


DEATH, of course is the ultimate healing. Lots of TRUTH in that. And the "Religious stuff" that people "SAY" about what they're "believeing"/"have faith for" may not mean much of anything.



Do you consider the Bible religous stuff? Because we do not believe out of the will of God that is written in the Word. Anything else is man made error.


"But I am stumped how to respond when someone comes to me and says, "why did my friend/spouse/etc die when they were a strong faith person."


We do not have all the answers for every thing nor do we claim to.
There are true reasons sometimes hidden that we cannot discern,yet that does not Change the truth of Gods Word.


The QUESTION, of course is what does "being a Strong Faith Person" actually mean. Folks may have a STRONG FAITH in one area, and ZERO faith in another. FAITH, after all is revelatory, and if you DON'T KNOW what God's intention in a certain area is, then there's NOTHING to base a claim of "Faith" on. Paul ministered Resurrection to people, and yet left Trophimus behind in Miletum when he got sick. "FAITH" for one thing doesn't necessarily mean "FAITH" for something else. FAITH is revelatory, and Sourced by God - the "Hearing of Faith" (Gal 3:2-5).


We do know Gods intention (will) we find it in his Word.
God is not double minded,and all things come from him.
Gods grace is our source of faith,because it is impossible to please him if we do not recieve it
Would God be unjust by not giving something he is pleased we have?
That would be illogical.
[

B]"Most if not all point to the a failure on the sick persons part."[/B]



BINGO!!! That's the WoF "Back door clause". IF it didn't work - IT'S ALL YOUR FAULT.


I have never heard this in such a fashion,but it could be bad preaching or speaking death by trying to make excuses before its over.
Like oh God wanted another Angel or you never know what God is thinking.
We are spirit filled tongue talking full gospel are we not.
You think that could bare fruit sometimes.


WoF folks have gotten beat up for saying it was because of their lack of faith, and rightfully so.


No beaten up because others lack of faith.
Others suppose that we present ourselves as supermen,when we are only trying to help
People live as God intended by his promises.
But if we put on glasses got you your not superman your a fake.
Ever suppose our eyes needed glasses to be made whole?
That by being blessed with glasses was our healing.

We do not deny the reality of our afflictions we deny their right.



True statement, and the FACT IS that when the thing believed for DIDN'T HAPPEN, then there WAS NO FAITH - PERIOD (God won't tell you He's doing something, and then NOT DO IT).


Amen


What was TAUGHT as FAITH (By the WoF false teachers) was nothing more that PRESUMPTION, and false hope.


False teachers would have to be qualified by who you speak of.


"you can just say you don't know, because you don't."
Yes


BINGO!!! if you don't know what to say - then it's not a SIN just to say that you don't know.
OK sure fine dandy.

"But, when you do know some details such as the person was struggling with doubt what do you say then?"



I don't know.



Same answer. If you Don't know what to say (and the Holy Spirit isn't "filling in the Blanks") then HEAVEN'S SAKE don't try to "Make up" something religious that supports your "theology"!!!!
Unless by their statements or actions or our not discerning demonic presence,why would we be that cruel?
Bottom line - Hebrews 11:1 DEFINES Biblical faith, as being the SUBSTANCE (The established reality) of the thing hoped for, and the EVIDENCE (of the existence) of what's not there.


I do not twist or restate to imply other meaning.
Substance and evidence is literal terms.


FAITH KNOWS. And if there's doubt, or confusion about the situation - IF you DIDN'T Hear from God about His intent - then there may be "Belief", and there may be "HOPE", and there may be well-meaning folks trying to Tell you religious things about what God WILL DO (maybe) - but the FACT IS that you DON'T KNOW what God will do, and so there's NO FAITH - period.


Not true you can speak to a mountain yet in your mind wonder and your speaking faith
Will cause the mountain to move.
According to Mark there are two ways to recieve your answer.
Speak faith proclaim victory,or pray to God the Father in Jesus name.

My Favorite illustration was the 24 year old fellow in my bible study back in the '70s who was a "Dead man walking" - Sent home from the hospital with a terminal cancer. Cold to the touch, weak as a kitten, and pale as a ghost - Chemo had failed, and so had radiation, and there was nothing left to do but keep him as comfortable as possible until he died in a few weeks max.

They were all United Church of Christ folks, so they were ultra-liberal theologically, and Nobody, other than myself, who'd ever even HEARD of "WoF teaching" (generally called "Name it, and Claim it" at the time).


By the critics and word of doubt folks I bet.


And God TOLD his mother, who was also in my study, that He would recover fully, and NOT die. She DIDN'T ask us to pray for healing (no need, it had already been granted), but to join her in thanking God for His provision. And so we did.


Amen


Nobody else in the study had any real FAITH that He'd be O.K. (when you see a need, it's EASY to "Hear a voice"). but we joined her in the HOPE that She really had heard from God.


Amen


And then over the next few weeks he "just got better" his color came back, hair grew in again, his strength returned, and 8 months later the medical folks declared him "Cancer free" - and 30 years later (The last time I heard) he still was (and a member of the AoG in St. Mary's, Ohio).


Amen

Just like Peter and the cripple at the temple gate (but not as immediately). Pete didn't "PRAY" for the man's healing - He KNEW what was going to happen, and just SPOKE IT.

That's Biblical "Word of Faith".


No that is what people call name and claim


Faith KNOWS.

We love ya Bob and God loves you so don't get crabby about my answers

OK something went way wrong here my answers were to be in black.

 

[turned around]

When we approach the Father from the position that he does everything for us by unmerited favor we are in a upright position. Righteouness is produced by simple faith, the confession of the word(speaking the word) should be supporting the fact that I am right with the Father by simple faith. Faith formulas put me into works where the unmerited favor of God puts me in the position to receive from the Father what I do not deserve. Jesus receiving stripes for my healing is unmerited favor I did not deserve. But it is for me to simply receive and thank the Savior for.

As I look to the finished work of the cross I see the Lord's grace on display, and the fulfillment of prophecy. It was prophesied that a Savior would come, then how do we receive from him(simple faith).

 

[Bob Carabbio]

"Maybe he was to ignorant to accept the cure or had a delusion for the cure."

You need to find out who Hobart Freeman was, apparently.

"IF it didn't work - IT'S ALL YOUR FAULT. vs I have never heard this in such a fashion,

Hmm - in MY experience that's the "Main Mantra" of Popular (TOXIC) Wof.

When a Friend in Wapakoneta, OH back in the late 70s was "Moving in faith" for his son's healing, and "Speaking faith" to the illness which kept getting worse - FINALLY he took the kid to the hospital - too late to save him, though. And his pastor in the WOF church came and accused him of murdering his son with his "lack of faith".

Not true you can speak to a mountain yet in your mind wonder and your speaking faith Will cause the mountain to move.

Contradiction in terms, If your "Mind" doesn't KNOW - then you have no "Substance, or Evidence", and you're not "speaking FAITH" at all - just parroting "Mantras" - it's called "Presumption". ANd when the "Mountain" DOESN'T move, then it's all YOUR FAULT for not maintaining a "Right profession" consistently enough. This is the very HEART of "TOXIC Wof False teaching.

"According to Mark there are two ways to recieve your answer.
Speak faith proclaim victory,or pray to God the Father in Jesus name."

In MArk 11:22-24 the PRECONDITION is to Believe (v23) - WITHOUT DOUBT IN YOUR HEART - not PRETENDING that you have faith - but ACTUALLY having it.

And to ask, having been delegated WITH JESUS' AUTHORITY (asking "in His name"). This is out of John 14, and 16. BOTH are based on KNOWING what's going to happen (But hasn't manifested-yet), as was the case in my illustration.

 

[now faith]

I do not know any toxic W.O.F.

My reply were based on Dad Hagin and his teaching.

He always stated just because you have the victory through faith,that does not mean your not going
To have the burdens of this world.

I know you have followed his teaching in Mark,it is word for word.

Yes believing in your heart was the teaching.

For me I do not follow only one Teacher or Preacher.

I listen for consistent views that line up with Gods Word.

It is some offshoots that will not take there kids to the Doctor.

Gods provision comes in many ways,how he heals could be by a anointed Doctor.

Or your can speak to your affliction and be healed.

But you are right I do not know who you mentioned,the 1920s must have been a fun time to experience
My brother

 

[now faith]

OK looked him up.

"Diabetics were not taking their insulin and pregnant women were receiving no pre-natal or post-natal care. ... They are laying dead babies and live babies next to each other on the altars and praying over them to get the live babies to bring life back to the dead ones. There was one woman in our county praying over a baby for four days before the funeral home got hold of it." [33]

Although he was a follower of Hagin and Copeland he broke off from them and started a cult like extreme.

 

[hhodgson]

First off I believe God has healed ALL our sicknesses but as you know WOF folks die of sicknesses all the time while they say they are believing on that truth.

Greetings Bob...you know that it's a little more than just believing...our actions are to "acknowledge" what has already been provided. Yep, it's for me..! Once I establish that, then I apply faith (not presumption), and believe AND receive, WHEN I pray. My prayer will not be "please Lord," No! (Matt 11:12) The violent take it by force. We need to be violently resolved. (force of faith) I know you don't like that one. Don't want to forget the next part. Without it, we usually mess it all up, which is simply entering into His rest, regardless of any symptoms.

Yup - Hobart Freeman was "Taken out" by a easily treatable infection that Hobart "Knew in FAITH" was healed - until it killed him, of course.

Oh, yes...the memories of Hobart Freeman. Why was he "taken out?" As far as him knowing in faith, that's was between him and God...(that's not just a toxic statement). We cannot speculate what was "really" in his heart. Perhaps presumption? Perhaps pride? especially since it was easily treated. Doubt and unbelief can be a problem for all of us in one situation to another. Bro. Hagin said one time..."If you are trying to sleep and you have a headache, and you pray and speak, headache still there. Pray and speak, headache still there. Go get a couple of aspirin."

DEATH, of course is the ultimate healing. Lots of TRUTH in that. And the "Religious stuff" that people "SAY" about what they're "believeing"/"have faith for" may not mean much of anything.

I would change, that DEATH is the "final" ultimate healing. That's not God's best for us, (at least, not now), we have work to do, or else He can just take us all home now..."NO,"... He wants us to continue His work on earth at a ripe old age, and healthy. (MHO) On earth, His best for us in ultimate healing is to walk in DIVINE health, (while were all here) in the here and now. We can't do much for Him in the kingdom if we all go out early. Not always fighting to get healed...but, fighting to stay healed.

"But I am stumped how to respond when someone comes to me and says, "why did my friend/spouse/etc die when they were a strong faith person."

There is only one answer that I can offer to them...You may not like the answer but, again...it comes down to what is actually in their heart. Even if one of our WoF teachers pass on, or yet even me. :o It's still what is ACTUALLY in our hearts, and we can claim healing all day. What's in your heart?

Also, faith people can get to a place where they can also cry out "why"? (If they let it.) Been there, done that...We all need to be really grounded in the Word. In my opinion..."Why," is a faith killer...Are we really trusting HIM?
Some have given up and we will never know the "why."

The QUESTION, of course is what does "being a Strong Faith Person" actually mean. Folks may have a STRONG FAITH in one area, and ZERO faith in another. FAITH, after all is revelatory, and if you DON'T KNOW what God's intention in a certain area is, then there's NOTHING to base a claim of "Faith" on. Paul ministered Resurrection to people, and yet left Trophimus behind in Miletum when he got sick. "FAITH" for one thing doesn't necessarily mean "FAITH" for something else. FAITH is revelatory, and Sourced by God - the "Hearing of Faith" (Gal 3:2-5).

(I like the bolded part)...As far as Trophimus...Why didn't Paul heal him? (God heals, were vessels) Shucks...another "why." Paul could have ministered healing to him and maybe told him to rest awhile. It may have taken a few days. (who knows!) Jesus, Himself could not heal "all" that He wanted to in His hometown. If I remember it right, He only healed a few...A lot of "unbelief." The "seasoned" disciples could not heal and deliver a man of a demon. More "unbelief." They have been doing this all along side by side with Jesus. Sometimes we miss it.

Just because Trophimus was an associate of Paul, he had to believe and receive also, same as us...It's apparent that Paul continued on without him. However, in (Acts 20:4) and not much later, Trophimus joined Paul in Jerusalem.

"Most if not all point to the a failure on the sick persons part."
BINGO!!! That's the WoF "Back door clause". IF it didn't work - IT'S ALL YOUR FAULT.

We know it's not God's fault. He has completely done His part...so...Who's left?

WoF folks have gotten beat up for saying it was because of their lack of faith, and rightfully so.

Yes, indeed. (about the beaten up part) I haven't heard too much on "lack of faith." Mainly, hearing them saying there not using what they already have. You know...the mustard seed! However, lack of faith can be "a" reason.

What was TAUGHT as FAITH (By the WoF false teachers) was nothing more that PRESUMPTION, and false hope.

Hmm...I listen daily to several WoF (if time permits) teachers and none teach presumption. Who would want to teach PRESUME? "Faith is the substance of things hoped for, evidence of things (Presumed?) Were ready for some names of these "false" teachers. Evidence of things "not seen" is not false hope.

"But, when you do know some details such as the person was struggling with doubt what do you say then?"

Starve the doubt and unbelief and be transformed, by renewing of your mind with the Word of God...and then enter into His rest. (Rom 12:2) (Heb 4:10).

Bottom line - Hebrews 11:1 DEFINES Biblical faith, as being the SUBSTANCE (The established reality) of the thing hoped for, and the EVIDENCE (of the existence) of what's not there.

Yes, through the eyes of faith...the evidence is there.

FAITH KNOWS. - IF you DIDN'T Hear from God about His intent - then there may be "Belief", and there may be "HOPE", and there may be well-meaning folks trying to Tell you religious things about what God WILL DO (maybe) - but the FACT IS that you DON'T KNOW what God will do, and so there's NO FAITH - period.

For this one Bob, you would have to define the word "Hear." If you mean "hearing the written Word of God, then ok." All of God's promises are "yes and amen." Once it's established to me (in the written Word) that His provisions are for me right now, then I apply faith and, there will be "belief and hope." That's how I HEAR from God...through His Word. No waiting for God to tell me, ok...it's your turn Harry.

And God TOLD his mother, who was also in my study, that He would recover fully, and NOT die. She DIDN'T ask us to pray for healing (no need, it had already been granted), but to join her in thanking God for His provision. And so we did.

Nobody else in the study had any real FAITH that He'd be O.K. (when you see a need, it's EASY to "Hear a voice"). but we joined her in the HOPE that She really had heard from God.

The rhema word in Biblical terms refers to a portion of scripture that "speaks" to a believer. In most cases, a rhema word received while reading the Bible applies to a current situation or need. In essence, the rhema word is timely and extremely valuable in a Christian's walk with God.

That is a great testimony of her faith. It's also amazing that God must have allowed the rest of you to witness the result of "her faith" even when no one else in the group had any real FAITH, as you said. Some time during the Bible studies, or whenever, she received rhema of the Word which spoke to her heart. Again...it comes down to what's in the heart. Amazing...

Just like Peter and the cripple at the temple gate (but not as immediately). Pete didn't "PRAY" for the man's healing - He KNEW what was going to happen, and just SPOKE IT. That's Biblical "Word of Faith".

Yes...Peter "already" had his mind renewed in "God's Word" which was embedded in his heart and he "spoke the Word."

Hmm...I like the bold part. (Romans 10:8) But what does it say? "The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart." (that is, the Word of Faith which we preach.)

Wow, Bob...responding to your post drained me. I wonder if my grandbabies left me just Klondike ice cream bar...

It's always a pleasure to chat with you...and what's nice is there is no debating. Just opinions...


Greater works...
_____________
Harry
‎

 

[Alive_Again]

I'm sure the reading is more interesting here in the Word of Faith section. Although people continue to debate against it here, it is important to review truth and not allow the seeds of doubt to enter into this area of faith.

Truth should be able to stand on its own. Since we don't know all of the circumstances and never will, there aren't any good answers as to why someone didn't get healed (unless the Lord provides them).

First off I believe God has healed ALL our sicknesses but as you know WOF folks die of sicknesses all the time while they say they are believing on that truth.

I believe there are a number of reasons that they were not healed, but none of them are because God did not want them healed.

...So, how do we respond in a loving way when we are asked point blank?
...when you do know some details such as the person was struggling with doubt what do you say then?

Many people could be healed but they choose to side with doubt. That's not toxic if you actually know about the doubts. Sometimes the doublemindedness is because they walk amiss and on the inside, their faith has been shipwrecked. People get into the permissive will of God and that often brings serious problems.

Maybe it is better to just dismiss it and leave it in God's hands. Might you imply that someone's walk wasn't just right? Leave them their dignity.

I tell folks that we are all at different levels of faith and we are not to look down at someone who may not be at your level.

Sometimes that is the case as well. Some say that if you wait till it's too late to begin renewing your mind to the truth, then you made your mistakes along the way.

Yup - Hobart Freeman was "Taken out" by a easily treatable infection that Hobart "Knew in FAITH" was healed - until it killed him, of course.

This is one of the things you have to fight in your good fight of faith. All of the people who did die. There's plenty of regular examples (of people who didn't know of the provision) and died, and then people break out examples of faith people who were taken out.

And the "Religious stuff" that people "SAY" about what they're "believeing"/"have faith for" may not mean much of anything.

We have to qualify with obedience. If we're obedient, we still have to have faith. What people say and believe for is vital to receiving by faith. Look at all the words of Jesus. People responded to Him and were told to believe or that they were healed because they had faith and believed.

There may be other issues, but you ALWAYS are to believe the gospel and your inheritance of redemption at every level.

"But I am stumped how to respond when someone comes to me and says, "why did my friend/spouse/etc die when they were a strong faith person."

As we have received the lesson the Lord told Kenneth Hagin about "the secret things of the Lord". You aren't allowed to know all of the answers. Their are mitigating circumtances of a person's life and we just have to leave it in God's hands.

The QUESTION, of course is what does "being a Strong Faith Person" actually mean. Folks may have a STRONG FAITH in one area, and ZERO faith in another.

That's true. Another possibility for people to consider.

FAITH, after all is revelatory, and if you DON'T KNOW what God's intention in a certain area is, then there's NOTHING to base a claim of "Faith" on.

God wants all of His children to be healthy and partaking of their inheritance. It comes by faith and by knowledge of hearing and continuing in the truth. These things are always something to base your faith on.

We have every example in the Word about what pleases and displeases God. Many examples of how to obtain a blessing and how to lose one. I think it's vital to have a present hour understanding of where we are with God.

"Most if not all point to the a failure on the sick persons part."
BINGO!!! That's the WoF "Back door clause". IF it didn't work - IT'S ALL YOUR FAULT.

Hate to hear 'Bingo!" because that is usually something someone yells when they win the game. It's a statement of rejoicing, but it's the wrong kind of "truth".

That' the constantly recurring rumor. Many times this is probably accurate, but since we don't know, it's always a good idea to encourage people to believe and to check their oil, so to speak. It's so rare to hear someone say "It's all your fault", that it's barely worth mentioning, let alone majoring in it.

True statement, and the FACT IS that when the thing believed for DIDN'T HAPPEN, then there WAS NO FAITH - PERIOD (God won't tell you He's doing something, and then NOT DO IT).

Whether or not people are at the faith stage of receiving, you still have to believe. That means that you still talk the talk. This makes people seem like liars or deceived, or what, but it's still calling things that be not. Abraham knew he was the father of a multitude, although he had no child. When he had one, it was still no multitude. Yet he was strong in faith, giving glory to God. Some things take time and have to be walked out. You can also be talked out of what you're standing for. Either way, you have to not only walk the walk, you have to talk the talk.

What was TAUGHT as FAITH (By the WoF false teachers) was nothing more that PRESUMPTION, and false hope.

Give us an example. This should be good. You see, people throw out what we call "Word of Faith" because of accusations like this. People do make mistakes, but the faith message as correctly taught is the Word of God and abides forever. We just have to meet the conditions.

<FAITH KNOWS. And if there's doubt, or confusion about the situation - IF you DIDN'T Hear from God about His intent - then there may be "Belief", and there may be "HOPE", and there may be well-meaning folks trying to Tell you religious things about what God WILL DO (maybe) - but the FACT IS that you DON'T KNOW what God will do, and so there's NO FAITH - period.

The thing is, you receive the truth "til the day dawns" and you fully understand. You get enough of a sense of truth in your spirit that the promise is true. You stand in that. You have to decide to abide in that and not be doubleminded. You may not have harvest faith yet, but the path there still involves believing.

Then there is receiving instruction in how to activate your faith. Peter saw one that had faith to be healed, but he was still lame!

God sent our beloved faith teachers into the world to go teach His people faith. You like "Dad Hagin". Hear what he said. It's the same faith message.

Just like Peter and the cripple at the temple gate (but not as immediately). Pete didn't "PRAY" for the man's healing - He KNEW what was going to happen, and just SPOKE IT. That's Biblical "Word of Faith".

Peter preached the Word and that was the basis for the man's faith. You don't have to pray always for someone's healing. You can receive on your own for that matter. You do have to hear though. There is also the prayer of faith, and in that context, it is proper to do so. You also have to actually have faith to pray this way. You also have to have a promise to believe in to have faith.

I'll just stick with Hagin for the moment, since I know you respect him. Jesus told Hagin that everywhere He went, He preached the same message. "The Spirit of the Lord has anointed Me..." They had to hear the Word (the truth) first. As He told Hagin, if they heard and received it, they came to Him and were healed. The Lord also told Hagin (I Believe in Visions) that some people don't even know what belongs to them. Healing belongs to "them" (us). The only thing we can do is screw it up!

The Lord also told Hagin (How to Write Your Own Ticket with God) that if they employ the four steps or principles that anyone can receive anything from God (scriptural). It's all principles of faith and in every case it calls for believing. Hagin's own sister was healed the first time, and then He allowed her to die the second. She was told that she did little to build her faith and God was holding her accountable for it. There is a part we have in our walk and so much depends on it.

We know from (Plans Purposes,and Pursuits) that people die sometimes because of their diet; because they don't judge themselves. God strives with people and if they don't obey, it's "or else". He still loves them, but the enemy is allowed in.

As we all know, there are more reasons in the Word to not receive (sins/disobedience) than to receive, but if we repent and obey God, He sends His Word and restores, gives added years, etc..

The worst thing you can do though is to entertain doubt. If you bore witness to the healing gospel, you need to believe and not entertain anything to the contrary that bring doublemindedness. We also need to go before the Lord and make sure He's not holding anything against us, because for years, certain things can be set aside and finally, the lack of restoration bears a fruit in the natural that ushers in the law of sin and death in our bodies.

Contradiction in terms, If your "Mind" doesn't KNOW - then you have no "Substance, or Evidence", and you're not "speaking FAITH" at all - just parroting "Mantras" - it's called "Presumption". ANd when the "Mountain" DOESN'T move, then it's all YOUR FAULT for not maintaining a "Right profession" consistently enough. This is the very HEART of "TOXIC Wof False teaching.

I would hardly call speaking and agreeing with the Word "parrotting a mantra". The thing is, it is ok to seek medical help. When your manifestation comes, then you're ready to see it come and displace what's going on in the physical realm. t's up to God when that comes (if it does) and if there is something in the realm of natural wisdom we have to employ along the way. IPeople aren't sure how to stay in faith while they are waiting for the full corn in the ear and make mistakes. Too bad to be sure.

It's ignorance that is toxic. People die for lack of knowledge. We surely know that we are to hear and receive the Word. Nothing toxic about that. People need instruction on how to overcome and stand in faith while they are waiting for the promise to be made manifest. Although it is wrong to not take care of our children if they need medical care (even when standing in faith for the full corn in the ear). It is equally wrong to say that any part of receiving by faith (actually believing EVERY step along the way) is toxic or wrong. So you have ignorance on both sides.

The middle of the road is to believe the Word, stand in faith believing in the seed until you get a harvest. Along the way, hear and obey God like Abraham and get in the "Hall of Faith". Do everything that makes for renewal; fight the good fight, and don't look at the 10,000 (that includes Hobart) that fall on the side and believe the good news.

 

[now faith]

Quite frankly I cannot understand why people knee jerk over a doctrine of faith.

Faith is a core teaching of the Bible.

As mentioned by Harry,we may not know why someone dies.

We surely know its not God healing some and killing others.

That is Calvinism hidden in charisma.

That would be a divided kingdom, that is tossed in every direction.

You do not have to change your core beliefs to reconcile tough questions.

By somehow finding a scapegoat,or straw man in accusing people who teach faith still does not settle the question.

This type of criticism will only delay the answer by forming a distraction.

 

[Jedi.Kep]

First off I believe God has healed ALL our sicknesses but as you know WOF folks die of sicknesses all the time while they say they are believing on that truth.

Yup - Hobart Freeman was "Taken out" by a easily treatable infection that Hobart "Knew in FAITH" was healed - until it killed him, of course.

Faith without works. Even Kenneth Copeland made it clear that prayer comes first, then the doctor visit.

DEATH, of course is the ultimate healing. Lots of TRUTH in that. And the "Religious stuff" that people "SAY" about what they're "believeing"/"have faith for" may not mean much of anything.

No Bob. Death is not healing. Death is a departure from this place into another. To equate 'the last enemy' to 'healing' is incorrect. I understand the point you are making, but I disagree with the way you explain it.

"But I am stumped how to respond when someone comes to me and says, "why did my friend/spouse/etc die when they were a strong faith person."

The QUESTION, of course is what does "being a Strong Faith Person" actually mean. Folks may have a STRONG FAITH in one area, and ZERO faith in another. FAITH, after all is revelatory, and if you DON'T KNOW what God's intention in a certain area is, then there's NOTHING to base a claim of "Faith" on. Paul ministered Resurrection to people, and yet left Trophimus behind in Miletum when he got sick. "FAITH" for one thing doesn't necessarily mean "FAITH" for something else. FAITH is revelatory, and Sourced by God - the "Hearing of Faith" (Gal 3:2-5).

Agreed. When Paul was preaching he perceived a man had "faith to be healed." Clearly faith can be compartmentalized depending on the issue.

"Most if not all point to the a failure on the sick persons part."

BINGO!!! That's the WoF "Back door clause". IF it didn't work - IT'S ALL YOUR FAULT.

99% of the time, the fault of unanswered prayer does lie at our feet. The Scriptures are plentiful which back this up. Just like Adam and Eve in the garden, we are desperate to place the blame on anyone or anything else but ourselves. Adam blamed Eve. Eve blamed the snake. No one ever took responsibility for their actions. That part of our human nature is still going strong today. We won't blame ourselves for unanswered prayer, but we blame God.

WoF folks have gotten beat up for saying it was because of their lack of faith, and rightfully so.

True statement, and the FACT IS that when the thing believed for DIDN'T HAPPEN, then there WAS NO FAITH - PERIOD (God won't tell you He's doing something, and then NOT DO IT).

Disagree here. Faith works by love. It is entirely possible that a person had faith, but was missing the mark in love, thus causing their faith to be ineffective. Some have faith but improper action. The man Paul was preaching to. Paul perceived he had faith to be healed, and yet the man wasn't healed until Paul helped him to put action to that faith. This man was lacking proper action.

What was TAUGHT as FAITH (By the WoF false teachers) was nothing more that PRESUMPTION, and false hope.

And you also bring out another reason faith doesn't work at times.

"you can just say you don't know, because you don't."

BINGO!!! if you don't know what to say - then it's not a SIN just to say that you don't know.

No disagreement here. There's plenty I don't know. The more I learn, the more I see I don't know much!

"But, when you do know some details such as the person was struggling with doubt what do you say then?"

Same answer. If you Don't know what to say (and the Holy Spirit isn't "filling in the Blanks") then HEAVEN'S SAKE don't try to "Make up" something religious that supports your "theology"!!!!

Misplaced desire to help. We are all desperate to comfort the hurting. In our zeal, we tend to say things that in retrospect end up being really, really stupid.

My Favorite illustration was the 24 year old fellow in my bible study back in the '70s who was a "Dead man walking" - Sent home from the hospital with a terminal cancer. Cold to the touch, weak as a kitten, and pale as a ghost - Chemo had failed, and so had radiation, and there was nothing left to do but keep him as comfortable as possible until he died in a few weeks max.

They were all United Church of Christ folks, so they were ultra-liberal theologically, and Nobody, other than myself, who'd ever even HEARD of "WoF teaching" (generally called "Name it, and Claim it" at the time).

And God TOLD his mother, who was also in my study, that He would recover fully, and NOT die. She DIDN'T ask us to pray for healing (no need, it had already been granted), but to join her in thanking God for His provision. And so we did.

Nobody else in the study had any real FAITH that He'd be O.K. (when you see a need, it's EASY to "Hear a voice"). but we joined her in the HOPE that She really had heard from God.

And then over the next few weeks he "just got better" his color came back, hair grew in again, his strength returned, and 8 months later the medical folks declared him "Cancer free" - and 30 years later (The last time I heard) he still was (and a member of the AoG in St. Mary's, Ohio).

Just like Peter and the cripple at the temple gate (but not as immediately). Pete didn't "PRAY" for the man's healing - He KNEW what was going to happen, and just SPOKE IT. That's Biblical "Word of Faith".

Faith KNOWS.

Lovely testimony, and a clear example of the Gifts of the Spirit in operation.

 

[Jedi.Kep]

Quite frankly I cannot understand why people knee jerk over a doctrine of faith.

Faith is a core teaching of the Bible.

As mentioned by Harry,we may not know why someone dies.

We surely know its not God healing some and killing others.

That is Calvinism hidden in charisma.

That would be a divided kingdom, that is tossed in every direction.

You do not have to change your core beliefs to reconcile tough questions.

By somehow finding a scapegoat,or straw man in accusing people who teach faith still does not settle the question.

This type of criticism will only delay the answer by forming a distraction.

Excellent observation. If anything, unanswered prayer should drive us to our knees and to the Word even more to discover the answers we seek.

 

[Bob Carabbio]

"It is entirely possible that a person had faith, but was missing the mark in love, thus causing their faith to be ineffective."

No way Hosea!!!

"Faith" is when You KNOW what's been provided - Because the Word of God to YOU promised it. IF you have Biblical Faith, then you ALREADY HAVE the "Substance" of the thing you hoped for, and the conclusive EVIDENCE of the provision before it gets there. (Heb 11:1). Anything else isn't "Faith" at all.

"LOVE" has nothing to do with that one way or another, and CAN'T MAKE a god-given reality "inneffective".

Bottom line - if what you "Call" faith is ineffective, then it was never REALLY "Faith" to begin with. Just "Presumption, or "superheated hope".

 

[hhodgson]

"It is entirely possible that a person had faith, but was missing the mark in love, thus causing their faith to be ineffective."

No way Hosea!!!

"Faith" is when You KNOW what's been provided - Because the Word of God to YOU promised it. IF you have Biblical Faith, then you ALREADY HAVE the "Substance" of the thing you hoped for, and the conclusive EVIDENCE of the provision before it gets there. (Heb 11:1). Anything else isn't "Faith" at all.

"LOVE" has nothing to do with that one way or another, and CAN'T MAKE a god-given reality "inneffective".

Bottom line - if what you "Call" faith is ineffective, then it was never REALLY "Faith" to begin with. Just "Presumption, or "superheated hope".

Hmmm! Love has nothing to do with faith???? and

Bob...Is it possible that your "bottom line" about why faith is "ineffective," or "presumption." or "superheated" hope (as you put it) could be because LOVE has EVERYTHING to do with true BIBLICAL FAITH?

Yes...Faith is the hand that takes the things we need from God. Everything Jesus purchased for us on Calvary can be obtained by faith. This includes salvation, healing, the fullness of the Spirit, the gifts of the Spirit, the fruit of the Spirit, and victory over the world, the flesh, the devil, and all the powers of darkness.

However..."All" of these things come to us by faith. "BUT" it must be FAITH that WORKS BY LOVE (Gal. 5:6). "For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision avails anything, but FAITH working through LOVE."

(1 Cor 13:2) &#8211; "If I have a FAITH that can move mountains, but do not have LOVE, I AM NOTHING"

Faith is not working for some Christians because they do not have a full understanding of what the Word of God says about faith.

Bible teachers say we must have faith to please God, but some casually pass over the teachings that FAITH works by LOVE, and that God is love. If we are going to make our faith house strong, we must make its foundations strong. And the foundation of FAITH is LOVE. The Kingdom of God has been damaged by people who have heard the faith message once and have run off with it without knowing what they were doing or how to use what they had heard. Before long, they came crashing down and didn&#8217;t understand why. Hmm...there's that WHY again... (I love my smileys)

Bob...We can make all the confessions we want to. We can quote the Bible day and night. We can fast and pray, and we still won&#8217;t get anything "IF" we are not WALKING IN LOVE. The WORD says FAITH "works" by LOVE. But if we&#8217;re not walking in love, OUR FAITH WON'T WORK!

Bob...Do you believe that God answers your prayers? Do you always feel like he&#8217;s going to answer your prayers? What&#8217;s the difference between believing something in your head and believing it in your heart? What is FAITH without LOVE?

FAITH without LOVE is all in the head, but not in the heart. Think about what it would mean if someone said, "I believe in you, but I don&#8217;t trust you." That&#8217;s what you&#8217;d get if you have FAITH without LOVE.

So FAITH without LOVE is nothing worthwhile? What&#8217;s LOVE without FAITH? Bob...they both work hand in hand and one cannot work without the other...

FAITH without LOVE isn&#8217;t worth much despite how important it is.

LOVE without FAITH isn&#8217;t worth much despite how important it is.

(John 16:27) Jesus told His disciples, "The Father Himself loved me and have believed that I came from God." Jesus makes an explicit connection between LOVE and FAITH (belief). FAITH and LOVE are intertwined.

Without both FAITH and LOVE, they could have no relationship with God. Without FAITH, there is no LOVE.

How about it Bob...Must I go on.......


Greater works...
_____________
Harry

 

[Truthfrees]

(John 16:27) Jesus told His disciples, "The Father Himself loved me and have believed that I came from God." Jesus makes an explicit connection between LOVE and FAITH (belief). FAITH and LOVE are intertwined.
Greater works...
_____________
Harry

Faith, hope, and love are intrinsically connected. (1 Corinthians 13, 1 Thessalonians 5:8, Hebrews 11:1)

Faith works by love (Galatians 5:6). The Lord is love. Walking in love is ABIDING in the Lord (1 John 4:16).

If we KNOW He loves us, we have confidence that He will keep His promises to us (1 John 3 and 4).

Those who don't know the Lord loves them, often don't show His love to love others (1 John 4:8).

God's kind of faith needs God's kind of love to work properly (Mark 11:22 WYC, YLT, Galatians 5:6).

"In Christ Jesus, neither circumcision nor uncircumcision counts for anything, but only faith activated and energized and expressed and working through love." - Galatians 5:6 AMP

"Faith which worketh by love." - KJ21, GNV, JUB, KJV, WYC

"Faith working through love." - ASV, CEB, DAR, ERV, ESV, GW, GNT, LEB, TLB, NASB, NET, NIV, NKJV

"Faith which expresses itself in love." - PHILLIPS, MSG, NLT

"Now abide faith, hope, love, these three; but the greatest of these is love." - 1 Corinthians 13:13

"Let us who are of the day be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love, and as a helmet the hope of salvation." - 1 Thessalonians 5:8

"We have known and believed the love that God has for us. God is love, and he who abides in love abides in God, and God in him." - 1 John 4:16

 

[Jedi.Kep]

"It is entirely possible that a person had faith, but was missing the mark in love, thus causing their faith to be ineffective."

No way Hosea!!!

"Faith" is when You KNOW what's been provided - Because the Word of God to YOU promised it. IF you have Biblical Faith, then you ALREADY HAVE the "Substance" of the thing you hoped for, and the conclusive EVIDENCE of the provision before it gets there. (Heb 11:1). Anything else isn't "Faith" at all.

"LOVE" has nothing to do with that one way or another, and CAN'T MAKE a god-given reality "inneffective".

Bottom line - if what you "Call" faith is ineffective, then it was never REALLY "Faith" to begin with. Just "Presumption, or "superheated hope".

Bob, your comment is simply baffling in light of the Scriptures.

Galatians 5:6 "...Faith working through love." NKJV

... faith activated and energized and expressed and working through love.- AMP

No way Hosea? Seriously?

And Acts 14:9 The man had faith to be healed. This begs the question, "Why wasn't he healed?"

Both of these verses very clearly show that people can have faith and yet not receive that which they are trusting God for. Why? Because there is something else they are failing to do. One involves love. The other involves corresponding actions. There are more than these brother. May I humbly encourage you to continue to search the Scriptures to see how faith can indeed be hindered?

God Bless brother.

 

[Bob Carabbio]

Mentioning only:

"It's also amazing that God must have allowed the rest of you to witness the result of "her faith" even when no one else in the group had any real FAITH, as you said."

Why in God's green earth would you "Be amazed" that God would show his healing and resoring power to a group of folks who were seeking HIM??

Are you REALLY that "elitist", that you think that your little "Faith club" are the only ones "Worthy" to see God in action??

 

[Truthfrees]

"God has dealt to each one a measure of faith." - Romans 12:3

"But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him." - Hebrews 11:6

It's up to each person to use that faith AND encourage others to do the same.

"The righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith; as it is written, &#8220;The just shall live by faith." - Romans 1:17

"That I may be encouraged together with you by the mutual faith both of you and me." - Romans 1:12

"To establish you and encourage you concerning your faith." - 1 Thessalonians 3:2

Offense blocks faith (Mark 6). Love makes faith work well (Galatians 5:6). The Lord marveled at their unbelief (Mark 6). This should inspire us to ask the Lord to teach us HOW to walk in faith and love.

"Then He went out from there and came to His own country, and His disciples followed Him. 2 And when the Sabbath had come, He began to teach in the synagogue. And many hearing Him were astonished, saying, &#8220;Where did this Man get these things? And what wisdom is this which is given to Him, that such mighty works are performed by His hands! 3 Is this not the carpenter, the Son of Mary, and brother of James, Joses, Judas, and Simon? And are not His sisters here with us?&#8221; So they were offended at Him. 4 But Jesus said to them, &#8220;A prophet is not without honor except in his own country, among his own relatives, and in his own house.&#8221; 5 Now He could do no mighty work there, except that He laid His hands on a few sick people and healed them. 6 And He marveled because of their unbelief. Then He went about the villages in a circuit, teaching." - Mark 6:1-6

 

[Truthfrees]

...people can have faith and yet not receive that which they are trusting God for. Why? Because there is something else they are failing to do. One involves love. The other involves corresponding actions....

Faith does have corresponding obedience, action, and speech.

"Lead ·people of all nations [the Gentiles] to ·believe and obey [or the obedience that comes from faith; or the obedience that is faith; or the obedience that follows faith; or the obedience of faith]." - Romans 1:5, 16:26 EXB, NIV

"Bring people from every nation to the obedience that is associated with faith." - Romans 1:5, 16:26 GW, NOG

"The obedience of faith." - Romans 1:5 HCSB, LEB, MOUNCE, NASB, NET, NRSV, WEB, YLT

"The obedience of faith." - Romans 16:26 KJ21, ASV, DARBY, DRA, ESV, GNV, HCSB, PHILLIPS, KJV, MOUNCE, NASB, NET, NRSV, RSV, YLT

"Faith-filled obedience." - Romans 16:26 VOICE

"I&#8217;ll show you my faith by putting it into practice in faithful action." - James 2:18 CEB, CJB, GNT, TLB

"I will ·show you [prove; demonstrate] my faith by ·what I do." - EXB, NCV, NIRV

"I can show you by my actions that I have faith." - PHILLIPS

"I believe and therefore speak." - 2 Corinthians 4:13, Psalm 116:10

"By faith Abel offered to God a more excellent sacrifice." - Hebrews 11:4

"By faith Noah, being divinely warned of things not yet seen, moved with godly fear, prepared an ark for the saving of his household." - Hebrews 11:7

"By faith Abraham obeyed when he was called to go out to the place which he would receive as an inheritance. And he went out, not knowing where he was going. By faith he dwelt in the land of promise as in a foreign country, dwelling in tents with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise; for he waited for the city which has foundations, whose builder and maker is God." - Hebrews 11:8-10

 

[now faith]

Mentioning only:

"It's also amazing that God must have allowed the rest of you to witness the result of "her faith" even when no one else in the group had any real FAITH, as you said."

Why in God's green earth would you "Be amazed" that God would show his healing and resoring power to a group of folks who were seeking HIM??

Are you REALLY that "elitist", that you think that your little "Faith club" are the only ones "Worthy" to see God in action??

1 John 4:8 He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love.

That is the bottom line.

 

[Bob Carabbio]

"Quite frankly I cannot understand why people knee jerk over a doctrine of faith."

We don't. we DO resist a FALSE doctrine of selfish, metaphysical, or presumptive "supposed faith", but have no problem with a Biblical faith doctrine that meets the Heb 11:1/Mark 11:22-24/Rom 10:17 criteria.

"Faith is a core teaching of the Bible."

Absolutely - Salvation is the PERFECT example of "Word of Faith". you live in the WOrld just like everybody else - AND YET you know, and testify that there's a whole 'nuther HOME waiting for you on the other side of the grass.

"As mentioned by Harry,we may not know why someone dies."

OF course we do!! We die when, in God's will, it's TIME for us to move on to the next level.

"We surely know its not God healing some and killing others."

a That's a foolish way of stating it. You could as easily have put it: "We know it's not God forcing some to remain alive, and allowing others to join Him in Glory".

"You do not have to change your core beliefs to reconcile tough questions."

You MAY have to change "Core Beliefs" that are WRONG to begin with.

"This type of criticism will only delay the answer by forming a distraction."

Or it MIGHT save the life of somebody who's been taught TOXIC WoF, and is trying to be healed through "presumption". It seems that every year some yahoo takes his kid's insulin, or other medication away and kills them.