The Lord's day.

[from scratch]

John wouldn't have been identifying the Lord's Day as Sunday for any reason having to do with Easter.

John observed the 3-day sequence as it floated each year from day to day.

Passover-14 of Nisan
Unleavened bread-15
First fruit-16

Gotja. I agree, but remember they were on the new moon calendar. We use the Gregorian calendar these days with fixed weeks and varying month lengths starting the day after the last of the day of the month. Only 4 of them are 30 day months. The first Sabbath/Saturday is always the 7th on the new moon calendar.

 

[Elder 111]

The Sabbath was given to the Israelites as a Day of rest from works, but Jesus brought an end to that, so you keep arguing about something that was done away with.

We as Christian's are under a spiritual Sabbath seven days a week, so we put of the work's of the flesh every day of the year, that is the point.

Now what ever a Christian accepts is a Holy Day that's is his or her choice, but is not required under the "Law of the Christ, it's keeping the Spiritual Sabbath that is required.

Works of the flesh is not a focus true Christians should have, do you get it?

You have not addressed why John could not have called the Sabbath "the Lord's day" in light of the fact that God called the Sabbath "My holy day".
If God called it "mine" is it not fair to say "the Lord,s"?
Where is this spiritual Sabbath mentioned in the bible? Never heard of it.
When was not the man of God to be holy seven days a week? You are telling me this was only the case after Christ came?
What is there about the Sabbath that makes it a "work of the flesh"?
Jesus said He was not doing away with the law, so how come you are saying exactly that?

 

[Elder 111]

This speaks of God's rest. God swore they couldn't enter in. Yet they observed the 7th day Sabbath rest. So how can they observe this 7th day rest and not enter into God's rest? It obviously has to be 2 different kinds of rest.

They did not keep the Sabbath. Isa 58 and many more text, some of which I have already shown reavled that Israel did not obey God nor kept His Sabbath.
If thou turn away thy foot from the sabbath, from doing thy pleasure on my holy day; and call the sabbath a delight, the holy of the Lord, honourable; and shalt honour him, not doing thine own ways, nor finding thine own pleasure, nor speaking thine own words:
Jews failed God up to the time of the cross. Heb. 8: For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:
You keep insisting that a new covenant is in place but on the premise that something needed to be change on/with the old. The problem was not the tenants of the covenant it is the people. Even the Sabbath that you contend the kept was not the way God required it to be Kept. That why they and Jesus had contentions over it.

 

[Elder 111]

Please provide something from the Bible that says Christians met on the Sabbath.

In acts 13: Paul met with the gentiles on the Sabbath with great objection from the Jews.
Act 13:
44 And the next sabbath day came almost the whole city together to hear the word of God.
45 But when the Jews saw the multitudes, they were filled with envy, and spake against those things which were spoken by Paul, contradicting and blaspheming.

 

[spiritandtruth2]

Double posting sorry about that.

 

[spiritandtruth2]

You have not addressed why John could not have called the Sabbath "the Lord's day" in light of the fact that God called the Sabbath "My holy day".
If God called it "mine" is it not fair to say "the Lord,s"?
Where is this spiritual Sabbath mentioned in the bible? Never heard of it.
When was not the man of God to be holy seven days a week? You are telling me this was only the case after Christ came?
What is there about the Sabbath that makes it a "work of the flesh"?
Jesus said He was not doing away with the law, so how come you are saying exactly that?

The Israelites were commanded not to do any manual or fleshly work on the seventh day.

Exodus 20:8-11

New International Version (NIV)

8 “Remember the Sabbath day by keeping it holy. 9 Six days you shall labor and do all your work, 10 but the seventh day is a sabbath to the Lord your God. On it you shall not do any work, neither you, nor your son or daughter, nor your male or female servant, nor your animals, nor any foreigner residing in your towns. 11 For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, but he rested on the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy.

So they where the Israelites to offset one day of the week not to do any work and make that day a literal rest day.

But the point is this, nowhere are Christians commanded to observe a literal rest one day in seven.

On the contrary, they are told: “Therefore let no man judge you in eating and drinking or in respect of a feast day or of an observance of the new moon or of a Sabbath" Col. 2:16.

Now for the same reason, namely, that God rested from his works, a spiritual sabbath or rest is placed upon Christians today.

It is a rest that is continuous, not only one day a week but all seven days.

This rest is a rest that comes from faith and obedience; a rest from selfish works, including efforts to establish our own righteousness.

Even as the literal seventh-day sabbath served to guard the Israelites against being taken over by materialism, so the spiritual rest of Christians safeguards them against the same snare.

If they faithfully observe their spiritual rest of faith and obedience, then, instead of being consumed by a feverish “love of money” that “is a root of all sorts of injurious things, we will have the rest that comes from “godly devotion along with self-sufficiency, which is great gain.

So Christian's are not under the Sabbath as the Israelites where, but have entered into God's Rest which is spiritual.

You have to remember Adam & Eve became fleshly when the became disobedient and independent from God, no-longer having a Spiritual relationship with their Heavenly Father.

Christians are to put off the works of the flesh permanently, and accept the council from God's word the Bible.

Matthew 6:33

New International Version (NIV)

33 But seek first his kingdom and his righteousness, and all these things will be given to you as well.

The spiritual Sabbath which Christians are now under which is "The Law of The Christ" Yes?

 

[Elder 111]

You will only find such evidence in other writings of the times. There is no verse that indicates the Sabbath is called the Lord's Day. It can be shown with the Bible the word kyriakos is used in relation to the Lord's Supper (we call communion) in 1 Cor 11:20. This kind of terminology was the common form of the day. Such is also found in a document called The Didache also know as The teaching of the 12 Apostles. Such an also be found in literature of the day. It is known that just the word kyriakos was known to indicate the day of the week Christians met for worship.

The word Kyriakos means belonging to the Lord, so that would have been used in anything relating to God. The fact that someone referred to Sunday or anything else for that matter as the Lord's does not validate it as of God. Paul said in 2 Thess. 2: 7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
So the seed of deception was already in the works. I also did history and found that a lot of what the church project as valid was not. Writings and relics. You want to accept them that is your business, but I believe that you too know that a lot of them if not all were made up. Isa 8:20.
"To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them. "

1 Cor 16 also shows Christians meeting on the first day of the week to put aside an offering into the treasury and not their own house or piggy bank. Churches had a treasury in those days. No church that I have ever heard of refuses to take and offering on the day of worship or requires its attendees to bring such on a different day.

That is your reasoning not scripture. Now concerning the collection for the saints, as I have given order to the churches of Galatia, even so do ye. 2 Upon the first day of the week let every one of you lay by him in store, as God hath prospered him, that there be no gatherings when I come. By Him who? Church is a Him? The Greek gives no indication of such. We have project our position onto the account instead of letting the account speak for it self. You can buy that but God's word does not speak to a collection in Church.

Frogster already quoted a text that translates the first day of the week as Sunday and not one of the Sabbaths (weekly Sabbath). That text also incorrectly says in their house. The treasury wasn't in their house. Besides if they kept it in their house it would still have to be collected when Paul came. Paul had no intention going to every man's house for the collection.

I'd be very happy to pursue this farther.

The problem was not going from house to house. The problem would have been that no money would have been put aside and it would have taken time for the people to put aside money. Taken money from people would not have been a problem. They could have then brought it all together when Paul got there. Sunday is the first day of the week but lay aside money by "himself" is not church.

 

[Elder 111]

Here the day is plainly called the Sabbath day. It isn't called the Lord's Day. There isn't one shred of any passage to support Lord's Day found in the Old Testament.

You Kidding me Right.
The Lord called it "my Holy day. What do you want?
Paul said " lay by himself" you want to call it church. Really changing from "my" to "Lord's" seems extremely logical but from "himself" to "church". Judge. Heaven will observe and really see how much truth you are searching for.

 

[from scratch]

They did not keep the Sabbath. Isa 58 and many more text, some of which I have already shown reavled that Israel did not obey God nor kept His Sabbath.
If thou turn away thy foot from the sabbath, from doing thy pleasure on my holy day; and call the sabbath a delight, the holy of the Lord, honourable; and shalt honour him, not doing thine own ways, nor finding thine own pleasure, nor speaking thine own words:
Jews failed God up to the time of the cross. Heb. 8: For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:
You keep insisting that a new covenant is in place but on the premise that something needed to be change on/with the old. The problem was not the tenants of the covenant it is the people. Even the Sabbath that you contend the kept was not the way God required it to be Kept. That why they and Jesus had contentions over it.

You could fool me for sure. In Jesus' day they were keeping the Sabbath. I'm not discussing the periodic failures of Israel. Now if you want to discuss the actual keeping of the Sabbath according to Ex 20:8-11, I'll show you that you fail just like Israel did. Thus you don't keep the Sabbath. You might keep a self amended Sabbath though.

Here in your quote the Bible calls the Sabbath My holy Day. The phrase Lord's Day isn't used.

I've offered no real discussion about the contents of either covenant in discussing them. I've said that the New Covenant is different from the Old Covenant just like Jeremiah says with not according to. Some content this only means movement from stone to the heart. If that were true there indeed would be no change and you'd have a valid point.

Then we could get into the finding fault with them. Romans 11:32 says God committed them to sin. This means they had no choice in the matter. The verse also says why. Paul give a very good discussion on the purpose of the law in Romans. No where does Paul indicate obeying the law brings righteousness. BTW no one else does either.

 

[from scratch]

In acts 13: Paul met with the gentiles on the Sabbath with great objection from the Jews.
Act 13:
44 And the next sabbath day came almost the whole city together to hear the word of God.
45 But when the Jews saw the multitudes, they were filled with envy, and spake against those things which were spoken by Paul, contradicting and blaspheming.

I asked about Christians, not gentiles.

In the passage you quoted this invitation occurred after the first meeting with Paul in attendance at the synagogue. There were no Christians there at this point. So please try again.

 

[carole2u]

A day of the week is observed in the flesh, and John's first statement is "I was in the Spirit". This has an eschatological implication that suggests John was seeing things on the Lord's Day, aka the Day of the Lord. None of your poll responses takes this possibility into account.

I agree, the day we choose to worship on has nothing to do with "the LORD's day"

 

[from scratch]

The word Kyriakos means belonging to the Lord, so that would have been used in anything relating to God. The fact that someone referred to Sunday or anything else for that matter as the Lord's does not validate it as of God. Paul said in 2 Thess. 2: 7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.

Just as I said you will throw out anything you don't like. You're not the slightest bit interested in the truth. It interferes with your agenda requiring the keeping (select parts) of the law. I offered to show you what the language of the day meant. You contend there is no contemporary language.

So the seed of deception was already in the works. I also did history and found that a lot of what the church project as valid was not. Writings and relics. You want to accept them that is your business, but I believe that you too know that a lot of them if not all were made up. Isa 8:20.
"To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them. "

There is much fraud for sure. The Didache doesn't fall into this category. I didn't cite it to prove a doctrine as much as I cited it to show contemporary language.

That is your reasoning not scripture. Now concerning the collection for the saints, as I have given order to the churches of Galatia, even so do ye. 2 Upon the first day of the week let every one of you lay by him in store, as God hath prospered him, that there be no gatherings when I come. By Him who? Church is a Him? The Greek gives no indication of such. We have project our position onto the account instead of letting the account speak for it self. You can buy that but God's word does not speak to a collection in Church.

Do you wish a word by word exegesis or could I refer you to an online interlinear you would really look at?

The word collection (v 1) and the word gatherings 9v 2) are the same word in the Greek.

In store implies non private commercial sense in the Greek. There is no mention of home or house which Paul uses in other places.

By him implies free will as Paul indicates in 2 Cor. This would also be in line with what Jesus taught by whosoever will.

The problem was not going from house to house. The problem would have been that no money would have been put aside and it would have taken time for the people to put aside money. Taken money from people would not have been a problem. They could have then brought it all together when Paul got there. Sunday is the first day of the week but lay aside money by "himself" is not church.

You're completely disregarding the full context of the passage as can be shown with the word collection. Do I need to give commentary on that aspect?

 

[from scratch]

You Kidding me Right.
The Lord called it "my Holy day. What do you want?
Paul said " lay by himself" you want to call it church. Really changing from "my" to "Lord's" seems extremely logical but from "himself" to "church". Judge. Heaven will observe and really see how much truth you are searching for.

Evidently I do.

v 1 - where is this collection? Does Paul get it at or from the church or individuals homes? I think most people would say Paul picks up the collection at one single place as the word implies. If it is in individuals homes it isn't a collection.

You need to address this issue.

v 2 - the word thēsaurizō doesn't allow for private home/house.
the word para means from
the word hekastos means each which is qualified with heautou (him)
the word mē means not
the word logeia is the same word use in v 1 for collection. The word in v2 is in the plural form. This indicates no separate locations as in individual homes. Paul isn't coming to get collections. He is coming to get a collection as indicated by v 1.
the word let in English means allow. I'm having a little problem with the Greek here. I don't quite understand the English word let being in the text from the Greek. NTL let indicates free will.
the word titheto means to place or put

So I must ask if the verse means to put in one's home as you indicate. I really don't think so and would like to see support for such a statement.

Is the first day of the week disputed?

 

[from scratch]

You Kidding me Right.
The Lord called it "my Holy day. What do you want?
Paul said " lay by himself" you want to call it church. Really changing from "my" to "Lord's" seems extremely logical but from "himself" to "church". Judge. Heaven will observe and really see how much truth you are searching for.

OK so you wish to change the text. Suit or shoot yourself.

 

[Standing Up]

Gotja. I agree, but remember they were on the new moon calendar. We use the Gregorian calendar these days with fixed weeks and varying month lengths starting the day after the last of the day of the month. Only 4 of them are 30 day months. The first Sabbath/Saturday is always the 7th on the new moon calendar.

We've talked about that calendar; it may not have existed like that.

What is the Lord's Day?

Sabbath--- No, because John would have used that term.
Sunday--- No, because John would have used that term (first day of the week)
Resurrection--- No, because John observed it as a floating day, not fixed.

Then what?

Every day--- no, because that doesn't add any information
Day of the Lord--- ???
1000 year day--- this doesn't tell us anything either.

Other?

Pentecost--- my vote

Early writings do indicate Lord's day was Sunday, but for the wrong reason. John observed a floating "easter", not fixed to Sunday. So, the only alternative is Pentecost, which was always on a Sunday.

Why not just say Pentecost? John grew up under the Mosaic Law. He would be juxtaposing it's religion (Levitical priests and laity; constant ineffective sacrifice) with the Christian one (all believers are kings and priests; direct access to G-d). Pentecost is when the Law was given and when the Spirit was poured out (Acts). The idea is to hear the LORD without an intermediary.

 

[spiritandtruth2]

We've talked about that calendar; it may not have existed like that.

What is the Lord's Day?

Sabbath--- No, because John would have used that term.
Sunday--- No, because John would have used that term (first day of the week)
Resurrection--- No, because John observed it as a floating day, not fixed.

Then what?

Every day--- no, because that doesn't add any information
Day of the Lord--- ???
1000 year day--- this doesn't tell us anything either.

Other?

Pentecost--- my vote

Early writings do indicate Lord's day was Sunday, but for the wrong reason. John observed a floating "easter", not fixed to Sunday. So, the only alternative is Pentecost, which was always on a Sunday.

Why not just say Pentecost? John grew up under the Mosaic Law. He would be juxtaposing it's religion (Levitical priests and laity; constant ineffective sacrifice) with the Christian one (all believers are kings and priests; direct access to G-d). Pentecost is when the Law was given and when the Spirit was poured out (Acts). The idea is to hear the LORD without an intermediary.

You say all believers were Kings and Priests, these are what we would terms as the "First Fruits" Yes?

What roll do those who are not of the First Fruits play in God's arrangement?.

The idea is to hear the LORD without an intermediary what does this mean?

Thanks for any enlightenment you can share.

 

[By Faith Alone]

Pentecost is Hebrew in character looking forward to the greater gathering of that nation.

 

[Standing Up]

Pentecost is Hebrew in character looking forward to the greater gathering of that nation.

We should keep that in mind. Lord's Day is within the context of voice and trumpet (Rev 1:10). There's only one other time it happened. This is the cross reference.

Pentecost, giving of the OT Law (Ex. 19:16).

Pentecost, giving of the NT Spirit (Acts).

 

[Standing Up]

You say all believers were Kings and Priests, these are what we would terms as the "First Fruits" Yes?

I'd rather see all believers as all believers, rather than separate them into the first fruit and "main" harvest. Though that does happen.

Three harvests (first fruit then general of each), no? Barley (OT), Wheat (NT), grapes/other.

What roll do those who are not of the First Fruits play in God's arrangement?.

I suspect it is a division based on faith. Some ripen quicker.

The idea is to hear the LORD without an intermediary what does this mean?

Thanks for any enlightenment you can share.

The OT intermediary was the Levitical Priesthood, they stood in the gap.

In the NT, we are all priests, thus may approach God directly because of Christ's work.

Some suggest we still need intermediaries, like Mary, Saints, angels, ordained priests, in order for them to enter the throne room without us.

Hope that helps some.

 

[spiritandtruth2]

I'd rather see all believers as all believers, rather than separate them into the first fruit and "main" harvest. Though that does happen.

Three harvests (first fruit then general of each), no? Barley (OT), Wheat (NT), grapes/other.




I suspect it is a division based on faith. Some ripen quicker.



The OT intermediary was the Levitical Priesthood, they stood in the gap.

In the NT, we are all priests, thus may approach God directly because of Christ's work.

Some suggest we still need intermediaries, like Mary, Saints, angels, ordained priests, in order for them to enter the throne room without us.

Hope that helps some.

I thought Jesus Christ was the mediator.

1 Timothy 2:5

New International Version (NIV)

5 For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus.

I am confused who also are the main harvest?

Your Sister in the Lord, thanks for taking time out.