So can the Genesis be infallible and inerrant history?

[frogman2x]

No, you have a claim - that the Tubal-Cain, as mentioned in the Bible, was the first to create bronze. This claim is not supported by the evidence. The evidence is the appearance of bronze in different cultures, cultures that had absolutely no contact with the one the created the Bible.

You don't know that. Tubal-Cain taught his sons. they taught others. Some migrated and taught others. Some migrated to where Tubal-Cain lived and learned how make bronze. Unless you can prove other cultures developed bronze, you have no leg to stand on.

There is absolutely nothing to suggest that the Chinese, for instance, learned how to make bronze from Tubal-Cain. There's nothing to even suggest the Chinese knew such a person existed, if he existed at all.

It is unlikely that the chineese or any other cultrue learned from Tgubal-Cain, but someone had to invent the process and whoever it was surly taught others. Do you have any evidence that the Chineese developed the process on their own?

There was no one inventor for bronze, just like there was no one inventor for boats, or for spears, or sword, or any of the other tools and weapons that appear in different cultures, even ones that never interacted with each other until thousands of years after their cultures met. For instance, when the Europeans first arrived in America, the Inca had just started to discover Bronze, and it was widely unknown to Native Americans.

There is ALWAYS a first inventor of things. Now other cultures could have developed the process apart from the first inventor. I dont' think the Inca had developed bronze either. Thee did work in gold because they had that metal.

There's an abundance of evidence to suggest bronze had no single inventor, and next to nothing suggesting it did.

Then produce the evidence.

 

[frogman2x]

Because all of the other cultures in the region (with the exception of the Greeks) believed the earth to be flat at that time.

The uneducated in some cultures thought that the earth was flat, but the educated did not.

And also because the Bible says that's what they thought....

The Bible says no such thing. How about a verse to verify what you say.

Errr.....yes it does. It references a flat earth in several of the descriptions it gives of the surface......

Then give me the verses that say that.

 

[bhsmte]

The uneducated in some cultures thought that the earth was flat, but the educated did not.



The Bible says no such thing. How about a verse to verify what you say.



Then give me the verses that say that.

Who were these educated you refer to and where did they acquire their knowledge?

 

[lasthero]

but someone had to invent the process and whoever it was surly taught others.

Just because the Chinese figured it out doesn't mean they learned it from an outside source. They developed boats without contact from other cultures, they developed swords without contact from other cultures. Why don't you think they could develop bronze?

Do you have any evidence that the Chineese developed the process on their own?

The fact that there's A) no record of them interacting with any culture that could have taught it to them and B) that we've found artifacts of theirs that suggest they had bronze before they even made any real contact with Middle Eastern countries.

There is ALWAYS a first inventor of things.

True, there is always someone who comes up with an idea first, but that doesn't mean that the people who came up with it after the first person got the idea from him. At best you could say Tubal was AN inventor of bronze, not THE inventor, since other people in other cultures got the idea despite never even meeting the guy.

But that's not what you're arguing for. You said this.

Of course they got it from the technique invented by Tubal-Cain.

They didn't get it from Tubal. There's nothing to suggest they did.

Now other cultures could have developed the process apart from the first inventor.

So you're revoking your earlier stance, then?

I dont' think the Inca had developed bronze either. Thee did work in gold because they had that metal.

...what? Do you seriously think the Inca made everything out of gold? Stop. Take a moment. And seriously consider what you're implying, here. Think about why gold costs so much. Think about why even small things made of gold cost so much. You do know El Dorado isn't a real place, right?

Regardless, yes, they did have bronze, so it doesn't matter what you think.

http://incas.homestead.com/inca_metallurgy_copper.html

Then produce the evidence.

I did. Click on the link I provided. Read it.

 

[TLK Valentine]

Too bad you can't ask the martyrs.

Indeed -- dead men can't complain.

Additionally, it's far easier to excuse (or at least mitigate) David's numerous shortcomings by comparing them to his virtuous deeds -- we can accept him as imperfect, but still worthy of some degree of respect.

Hovind, on the other hand, has no such virtues, or any virtues to speak of. He deserves no respect, and receives such.

 

[TLK Valentine]

I'm glad you asked. You can know you are saved by who you know and who knows you.

Sounds like a social club.

 

[EternalDragon]

The problem is that by citing scripture; you are in essence not answering my question as there are many religions that claim to be the true faith. How can one know one is saved?

Claiming to be the true faith is not the subject here. I thought the question was salvation.

Show me another religion that has a risen savior, back from the dead, that died to wash away sins. A savior that was a real person along with eyewitness testimony about them.

 

[biggles53]

The uneducated in some cultures thought that the earth was flat, but the educated did not.



The Bible says no such thing. How about a verse to verify what you say.



Then give me the verses that say that.

Daniel 4:10-11
Matthew 4:8
Revelation 1:7

Just for starters.......

 

[TLK Valentine]

Claiming to be the true faith is not the subject here. I thought the question was salvation.

If one is worshiping the wrong god, then salvation is very much questioned.

Show me another religion that has a risen savior, back from the dead, that died to wash away sins. A savior that was a real person along with eyewitness testimony about them.

Eyewitness testimony, you say? That's a hoot.

 

[frogman2x]

Dude. Just stop.

So it is ok for you and others to quesion my understnding but it is not ok for me to question theirs. That is called a double standard, dude.

 

[Aman777]

Originally Posted by lasthero

No, you have a claim - that the Tubal-Cain, as mentioned in the Bible, was the first to create bronze. This claim is not supported by the evidence.​

Dear Readers, The above is totally wrong. The best and ONLY evidence is that Tubal-Cain, on Adam's world, was the first to create bronze. There is NO other evidence that he did NOT, and the above poster CANNOT support his view with anything but personal opinion. This reveals that he rejects God's Truth.
​

The evidence is the appearance of bronze in different cultures, cultures that had absolutely no contact with the one the created the Bible.

The above shows the reason for the poster's confusion. He has confused the evidence of bronze making on this Earth, with the first bronze making on the FIRST Earth, the one which was toally destroyed in the Flood. ll Peter 3:3-7

Also, EVERYone has had contact with God, making his idea that men wrote the Bible, null and void. I have personally told the poster of his mistakes, but he chooses to hide from God's Truth, while repeating falsehoods.

In Love,
Aman
​

 

[lasthero]

So it is ok for you and others to quesion my understnding but it is not ok for me to question theirs. That is called a double standard, dude.

I didn't say it wasn't okay. I just don't think it's conceivably possible to know less about anything than you know about biology.

 

[TLK Valentine]

The above shows the reason for the poster's confusion. He has confused the evidence of bronze making on this Earth, with the first bronze making on the FIRST Earth, the one which was toally destroyed in the Flood. ll Peter 3:3-7

When in doubt, invent a new planet (or an old one, as the case may be).

How adorable.

 

[frogman2x]

Who were these educated you refer to and where did they acquire their knowledge?

The educated were the one who attneded the schools at that time. They acquired their knowledge the same way we do today.

 

[frogman2x]

Just because the Chinese figured it out doesn't mean they learned it from an outside source.

Do you have any evidence they figured it out instead of someone frfom anothe cultrue migrating to China and teaching them?

They developed boats without contact from other cultures, they developed swords without contact from other cultures. Why don't you think they could develop bronze?<<

You don't know that either but I am sure they figured out how to makeboats on their own. I haved never said they couldn't' develop bronse. I said you have no evidence they did.

The fact that there's A) no record of them interacting with any culture that could have taught it to them and B) that we've found artifacts of theirs that suggest they had bronze before they even made any real contact with Middle Eastern countries.

Do you think all of the records from 3500 years ago are still available? The artifacts do not suggest when they were made. When did the Chineese start having contact with other cultures?

True, there is always someone who comes up with an idea first, but that doesn't mean that the people who came up with it after the first person got the idea from him. At best you could say Tubal was AN inventor of bronze, not THE inventor, since other people in other cultures got the idea despite never even meeting the guy.

I have a written record that Tubal Cain invented bronze. If you can find someone earlier than that who workd in bronze, trot it out.

...what? Do you seriously think the Inca made everything out of gold?

When did they start using bronze, if they ever did?

Stop. Take a moment. And seriously consider what you're implying, here. Think about why gold costs so much. Think about why even small things made of gold cost so much. You do know El Dorado isn't a real place, right?

Irrelevalnt. It has nothing to do with the invention of bronze and how the information expanded.

Regardless, yes, they did have bronze, so it doesn't matter what you think.

Inca Metallurgy



I did. Click on the link I provided. Read it.

Wha is relevant is when did they start using bronze? The Spaniards may have taught they about it.

 

[bhsmte]

The educated were the one who attneded the schools at that time. They acquired their knowledge the same way we do today.

In Jesus' time, 90% of the population was totally illiterate.

 

[lasthero]

Do you have any evidence they figured it out instead of someone frfom anothe cultrue migrating to China and teaching them?

The fact that they had bronze long before any real contact with any culture that would have had bronze.

I said you have no evidence they did.

I do, and I've shown it to you.

The artifacts do not suggest when they were made.

We can date them.

I have a written record that Tubal Cain invented bronze.

It's arguable the verse even says that much. As I recall, it just says he made the stuff, not that he was the first person to do.

When did they start using bronze, if they ever did?

Shortly before the Spanish arrived, it seems.

And what do you mean 'if they ever did'? Are the bronze Inca tools and weapons I've shown you not satisfactory evidence to show that the Inca used bronze? If actual bronze Incan artifacts aren't enough for you, I'm at a loss as to what more could be shown.

Irrelevalnt. It has nothing to do with the invention of bronze and how the information expanded.

True, but it does speak to your somewhat...tenuous grasp on history in this area. I really would like to know where you got the notion that the Inca made everything out of gold in lieu of bronze.

Wha is relevant is when did they start using bronze? The Spaniards may have taught they about it.

Given what the Spaniards wound up doing to them, that's highly unlikely - giving weapon making technology to people you're going to war with and conquering is kind of a stupid idea. Also, the Spaniards were using weapons made of steel, not bronze; they'd long since moved past that.

At any rate, no, we have bronze artifacts that date before the arrival of the Spaniards, like the one in that picture, which comes from a 1,000 year old burial site. Which you'd know, if you read the link.

 

[frogman2x]

I didn't say it wasn't okay. I just don't think it's conceivably possible to know less about anything than you know about biology.

Then why did you tell me to stop? I know more than you do dude.

 

[frogman2x]

In Jesus' time, 90% of the population was totally illiterate.

That is not true. The Jews, Greeks Romans and many othere civilizations were well educated.

 

[lasthero]

That is not true. The Jews, Greeks Romans and many othere civilizations were well educated.

No, it's true. Even in those cultures, higher education was a rare thing, not for the common man. Having an educated public is a fairly new thing, helped mainly by the invention of the printing press.