The books of Hebrews and Revelation prove the unchangeableness of God's Holy Law. (2)

[from scratch]

She isn't our leader

:o Not me.

 

[robinvanpersie]

Um 60% of your list are Israeli. How could you not be referring to Israel?

Great catch. You are proving my point…before the mystery was revealed it was mostly Israel that believed in the God of Israel. Yes there were foreigners who joined themselves to the God of Israel, but definitely not in the way that it has increased since the pouring out of the Spirit. IN fact the Master explicitly said that He was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel. This whole “go to the Gentiles” did not happen until later. This is why 60% or more of believers (if you want to put a number on it) were Israelis.

But the amazing mystery is the fact that Gentile, non-Jewish people THROUGH Messiah can now join and become PART of God’s believing people. Me and you…as Gentiles have been grafted in and have become FELLOW-HEIRS with THEM! Yes them contained Gentiles and non-jews as well, but also believing Israel.
After all Romans 1:16 makes pretty clear that salvation was, is and will always be to the Jew first and ALSO to the Gentile.

You call him a Christian which is impossible because the term came into use even after the death and resurrection of Jesus denoting His followers.

I’m calling him that because of what the word means—not “when it came into use”—which is why I prefer the word believer or saint, or someone who is part of God’s household and have a place in the world to come. Terms like “Christian” only promote a segregation that you yourself point out does not exist in the body of Messiah.

Everyone who has a place in the world to come, everyone who makes up God’s household are grafted into the Fold.

David didn't know about Jesus during his brief tenure on our little green planet.

You simply assume this, because of your chronological view of the salvific plan. Do you know what the word Yeshua means?

Yeshua said something extremely important and often ignored at the end of John 5:
"For if you believed Moses, you would believe Me, for he wrote about Me.
"But if you do not believe his writings, how will you believe My words?"

How can Moses write about Yeshua if he didn’t know Yeshua?
And why would David not know Yeshua if he, as a King knew ALL about Moses’ writings?
Yeshua is ALL over the “Old Testament” and Yeshua went as far as to say that those who wanted nothing to do with Moses’ writings wouldn’t even be able to believe His.

 

[robinvanpersie]

Yes Jesus is, well can be their Olive Tree also.

What you are essentially saying is that for your argument to work, Jesus needs to be both the root and the tree, even though it clearly differentiates the two in this passage?

Romans 11 is such a common sense passage. It’s up to you whether you accept the truth of it or not. (even if it contradicts your theology view)

There are 5 parts to this easy illustration.
Wild olive branch (Gentiles – believing and unbelieving)
Natural branches (Jews – believing and unbelieving)
Root
Cultivated Tree

Verse 17 clearly shows us that SOME of the natural branches are broken off. Verses 20 and 21 clearly shows us that SOME of the natural branches were broken off because of their unbelief.
Verse 17 also tells us that the wild olive branch (or the believing Gentile) is grafted in AMONG the remaining natural branches (those who believe). Thereby becoming partaker with them to the promises and nourishment of the root.

What do you think about verse 17 so far?

17. But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive, were grafted in among them and became partaker with them of the rich root of the olive tree,
18. do not be arrogant toward the branches; but if you are arrogant, remember that it is not you who supports the root, but the root supports you.
19. You will say then, "Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in."
20. Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear;
21. for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either.

the "them" is NOT referring to Gentiles, but natural believing branches.

 

[from scratch]

Great catch. You are proving my point…before the mystery was revealed it was mostly Israel that believed in the God of Israel. Yes there were foreigners who joined themselves to the God of Israel, but definitely not in the way that it has increased since the pouring out of the Spirit. IN fact the Master explicitly said that He was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel. This whole “go to the Gentiles” did not happen until later. This is why 60% or more of believers (if you want to put a number on it) were Israelis.

But the amazing mystery is the fact that Gentile, non-Jewish people THROUGH Messiah can now join and become PART of God’s believing people. Me and you…as Gentiles have been grafted in and have become FELLOW-HEIRS with THEM! Yes them contained Gentiles and non-jews as well, but also believing Israel.
After all Romans 1:16 makes pretty clear that salvation was, is and will always be to the Jew first and ALSO to the Gentile.

I’m calling him that because of what the word means—not “when it came into use”—which is why I prefer the word believer or saint, or someone who is part of God’s household and have a place in the world to come. Terms like “Christian” only promote a segregation that you yourself point out does not exist in the body of Messiah.

Everyone who has a place in the world to come, everyone who makes up God’s household are grafted into the Fold.

You simply assume this, because of your chronological view of the salvific plan. Do you know what the word Yeshua means?

Yeshua said something extremely important and often ignored at the end of John 5:
"For if you believed Moses, you would believe Me, for he wrote about Me.
"But if you do not believe his writings, how will you believe My words?"

How can Moses write about Yeshua if he didn’t know Yeshua?
And why would David not know Yeshua if he, as a King knew ALL about Moses’ writings?
Yeshua is ALL over the “Old Testament” and Yeshua went as far as to say that those who wanted nothing to do with Moses’ writings wouldn’t even be able to believe His.

The word Christian means a follower of Jesus Christ which was impossible for Abraham.

People now don't join the covenant made with Israel. The only way to do that is by physical circumcision for the male. I'm at a loss how a female does without a husband.

According to you first paragraph it is impossible for a Gentile to become a Christian without joining the covenant made with Israel. There isn't such a requirement on or for salvation.

Being fellow-heirs doesn't mean becoming an Israeli. We become that through Jesus and not the law (covenant made with Israel at Mt Sinai). The New Covenant has nothing to do with the Old Covenant.

I'd love to see some Bible quotes for your statement about wanting nothing to do with Moses especially in regard to salvation.

 

[from scratch]

What you are essentially saying is that for your argument to work, Jesus needs to be both the root and the tree, even though it clearly differentiates the two in this passage?

Romans 11 is such a common sense passage. It’s up to you whether you accept the truth of it or not. (even if it contradicts your theology view)

There are 5 parts to this easy illustration.
Wild olive branch (Gentiles – believing and unbelieving)
Natural branches (Jews – believing and unbelieving)
Root
Cultivated Tree

Verse 17 clearly shows us that SOME of the natural branches are broken off. Verses 20 and 21 clearly shows us that SOME of the natural branches were broken off because of their unbelief.
Verse 17 also tells us that the wild olive branch (or the believing Gentile) is grafted in AMONG the remaining natural branches (those who believe). Thereby becoming partaker with them to the promises and nourishment of the root.

What do you think about verse 17 so far?

17. But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive, were grafted in among them and became partaker with them of the rich root of the olive tree,
18. do not be arrogant toward the branches; but if you are arrogant, remember that it is not you who supports the root, but the root supports you.
19. You will say then, "Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in."
20. Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear;
21. for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either.

the "them" is NOT referring to Gentiles, but natural believing branches.

You appear to have no knowledge about agriculture and especially grafting or tree parts.

 

[Leuko Petra]

Why don't you like liberty? Must be jealous.

Liberty not from Obedience... it is Liberty from Sin, Satan, Selfishness, which is transgression of the Law...

[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]James 1:15[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, sans-serif] Then when [/FONT][FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]lust hath conceived[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, sans-serif], it [/FONT][FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]bringeth forth sin[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]: and [/FONT][FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]sin[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, sans-serif], when it [/FONT][FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]is finished[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, sans-serif], [/FONT][FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]bringeth forth death[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, sans-serif].

Which is like unto Paul's saying, "wages of sin [is] death" [Romans 6:23;p]

The word "lust" is the very same word Paul uses in Romans 7:7, "...I had not known [/FONT][FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]lust[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, sans-serif], except [/FONT][FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]the law[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, sans-serif] had said, [/FONT][FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]Thou shalt not covet[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]."

The word "sin" [hamartia] is the very same word used in the Gospels ["...JESUS, for He shall save His people from their sins." Matthew 1:21;p] and "...sin is the transgression of the law." [1 John 3:4;p]

Therefore, James [Gr. Jacob] says,

[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]James 1:16 [/FONT][FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]Do not err[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, sans-serif], my beloved brethren.

James then speaks about looking into the mirror, to see whether there be any spot,

[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]James 1:25 [/FONT][FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]But whoso looketh into [/FONT][FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]the perfect law of liberty[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, sans-serif], and [/FONT][FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]continueth [therein][/FONT][FONT=Verdana, sans-serif], he being not a forgetful hearer, but [/FONT][FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]a doer of the work[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, sans-serif], this man shall be blessed in his deed.

Where does James get this "perfect law of liberty" and what is it? It is the Ten Commandments themselves, for James is citing from two texts,

[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]The law of the LORD [is] perfect[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, sans-serif], [/FONT][FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]converting the soul[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]: the testimony of the LORD [is] sure, making wise the simple. [Psalms 19:7]

And [/FONT][FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]I will walk at liberty: for I seek thy precepts[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]. [Psalms 119:45]

See also "I have seen an [/FONT][FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]end of all perfection[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]: [but] [/FONT][FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]thy commandment [is] exceeding broad[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]." [Psalms 119:96]

James also goes on to say that every one in Christ Jesus is to, "...keep himself unspotted from the world." [James 1:27;p]

Later then James says,

[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]James 2:8 [/FONT][FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]If ye [/FONT][FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]fulfil [/FONT][FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]the royal law[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, sans-serif] according to the scripture[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, sans-serif], [/FONT][FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, sans-serif], ye do well:

What "scripture"? Verily the OT texts! We see that James connects this "Royal Law" which is to be fulfilled "according to the scripture" that "Thou shalt love thy Neighbour as thyself." which is a quotation from Leviticus 19:17-18, which is direct connection to the Ten Commandments, which to transgress is "sin" [see also Leviticus 19:2-3, "Ye shall be holy: for I the LORD your God [am] holy...and keep my sabbaths: I [am] the LORD your God."]:

Thou shalt [/FONT][FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]not hate thy brother in thine heart[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]: thou shalt in any wise rebuke thy neighbour, and [/FONT][FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]not suffer sin upon him[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]. [Leviticus 19:17]

Thou shalt not avenge, nor bear any grudge against the children of thy people, but [/FONT][FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]: I [am] the LORD. [Leviticus 19:18]

For James verily continues with,

[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]James 2:9[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, sans-serif] But if ye have respect to persons, [/FONT][FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]ye commit sin[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, sans-serif], and [/FONT][FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]are convinced of the law[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, sans-serif] as transgressors[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, sans-serif].

Notice, again ther direct connection with the words "commit sin" with " are convicted of the law as transgressors." and recompare yet once more to 1 John 3:4.

How then shall we know what the "Law of Liberty" is for sure? James is even more clear:

[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]James 2:10[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, sans-serif] For whosoever shall [/FONT][FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]keep the whole law[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, sans-serif], and yet [/FONT][FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]offend in one[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, sans-serif] [point], he is [/FONT][FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]guilty of all[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, sans-serif].

[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]James 2:11[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, sans-serif] For he that said, [/FONT][FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]Do not commit adultery[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, sans-serif], said also, [/FONT][FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]Do not kill[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law.

[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]James 2:12[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, sans-serif] So [/FONT][FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]speak[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, sans-serif] ye, and so [/FONT][FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]do[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, sans-serif], as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty.

Thus we see that the "Law of Liberty" is the very "Law" of God, the Ten Commandments, for James cites portions of the 2nd Table of God's Holy Law, Commandments 5-10, dealing with the Love to Neighbour [neigh brother], and if this is not fulilled, or as James says, "whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one", he then "is guilty of all". They are solidified in the Scriptures as One Law, The Ten Commandments. Notice, that to "commit sin" is to "become a transgressor of the law" [period].

James therefore as Paul says ["Because the carnal mind [is] enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be." Romans 8:7 and "For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;" Romans 3:23],

[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]James 4:4 [/FONT][FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]Ye [/FONT][FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]adulterers and adulteresses[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, sans-serif], know ye not that the [/FONT][FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]friendship of the world is enmity with God[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]? whosoever therefore will be a [/FONT][FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]friend of the world[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, sans-serif] is the [/FONT][FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]enemy of God[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, sans-serif].

[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]James 4:7[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]Submit yourselves therefore to God[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.

[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]James 4:8[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, sans-serif] Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. [/FONT][FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]Cleanse [your] hands, [ye] sinners[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]; and purify [your] hearts, [ye] double minded.

And then James mentions those who judge the Law, and those that do so, are not doers of it:

[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]James 4:11[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, sans-serif] Speak not evil one of another, brethren. He that speaketh evil of [his] brother, and judgeth his brother, [/FONT][FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]speaketh evil of the law, and judgeth the law[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]: but [/FONT][FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]if thou judge the law, thou art not a doer of the law, but a judge[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, sans-serif].

[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]James 4:12[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, sans-serif] There is [/FONT][FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]one lawgiver[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, sans-serif], who is able to save and to destroy: who art thou that judgest another?

How many lawgivers? One.

[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]James 4:17[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, sans-serif] Therefore to him that [/FONT][FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]knoweth to do good, and doeth [it] not, to him it is sin.[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]

James equates knowing to do good [and the Law of God, the Ten Commandments, "the Law" as Paul says are, "...holy, just and good..." Romans 7:12;p] and not doing it, is "sin", and thus we are right back to 1 John 3:4, with all of the Law and the Testimony, the Prophets and the Apostles in perfect harmony with Jesus Christ the Lawgiver, who is both able to save and destroy. [/FONT]

 

[from scratch]

Great catch. You are proving my point…before the mystery was revealed it was mostly Israel that believed in the God of Israel. Yes there were foreigners who joined themselves to the God of Israel, but definitely not in the way that it has increased since the pouring out of the Spirit. IN fact the Master explicitly said that He was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel. This whole “go to the Gentiles” did not happen until later. This is why 60% or more of believers (if you want to put a number on it) were Israelis.

But the amazing mystery is the fact that Gentile, non-Jewish people THROUGH Messiah can now join and become PART of God’s believing people. Me and you…as Gentiles have been grafted in and have become FELLOW-HEIRS with THEM! Yes them contained Gentiles and non-jews as well, but also believing Israel.
After all Romans 1:16 makes pretty clear that salvation was, is and will always be to the Jew first and ALSO to the Gentile.

I’m calling him that because of what the word means—not “when it came into use”—which is why I prefer the word believer or saint, or someone who is part of God’s household and have a place in the world to come. Terms like “Christian” only promote a segregation that you yourself point out does not exist in the body of Messiah.

Everyone who has a place in the world to come, everyone who makes up God’s household are grafted into the Fold.

You simply assume this, because of your chronological view of the salvific plan. Do you know what the word Yeshua means?

Yeshua said something extremely important and often ignored at the end of John 5:
"For if you believed Moses, you would believe Me, for he wrote about Me.
"But if you do not believe his writings, how will you believe My words?"

How can Moses write about Yeshua if he didn’t know Yeshua?
And why would David not know Yeshua if he, as a King knew ALL about Moses’ writings?
Yeshua is ALL over the “Old Testament” and Yeshua went as far as to say that those who wanted nothing to do with Moses’ writings wouldn’t even be able to believe His.

So would you please quote any verse in the books of Moses that use or name Jesus by name? Moses first wrote about Jesus in Gen 1:26. The next mention is 3:15.

 

[Leuko Petra]

So would you please quote any verse in the books of Moses that use or name Jesus by name? Moses first wrote about Jesus in Gen 1:26. The next mention is 3:15.

Not to really take part between your conversation, but if I may make a comment, and that is that "Joshua" [the name and even entire book] is the name of Jesus, in Hebrew. See also Acts 7:45 and Hebrews 4:8 ["Jesus" is actually "Joshua, the son of Nun" in both cases]

 

[from scratch]

Liberty not from Obedience... it is Liberty from Sin, Satan, Selfishness, which is transgression of the Law...

[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]James 1:15[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, sans-serif] Then when [/FONT][FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]lust hath conceived[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, sans-serif], it [/FONT][FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]bringeth forth sin[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]: and [/FONT][FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]sin[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, sans-serif], when it [/FONT][FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]is finished[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, sans-serif], [/FONT][FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]bringeth forth death[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, sans-serif].[/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]Which is like unto Paul's saying, "wages of sin [is] death" [Romans 6:23;p][/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]The word "lust" is the very same word Paul uses in Romans 7:7, "...I had not known [/FONT][FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]lust[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, sans-serif], except [/FONT][FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]the law[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, sans-serif] had said, [/FONT][FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]Thou shalt not covet[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]."[/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]The word "sin" [hamartia] is the very same word used in the Gospels ["...JESUS, for He shall save His people from their sins." Matthew 1:21;p] and "...sin is the transgression of the law." [1 John 3:4;p][/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]Therefore, James [Gr. Jacob] says,[/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]James 1:16 [/FONT][FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]Do not err[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, sans-serif], my beloved brethren.[/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]James then speaks about looking into the mirror, to see whether there be any spot,[/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]James 1:25 [/FONT][FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]But whoso looketh into [/FONT][FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]the perfect law of liberty[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, sans-serif], and [/FONT][FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]continueth [therein][/FONT][FONT=Verdana, sans-serif], he being not a forgetful hearer, but [/FONT][FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]a doer of the work[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, sans-serif], this man shall be blessed in his deed.[/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]Where does James get this "perfect law of liberty" and what is it? It is the Ten Commandments themselves, for James is citing from two texts,[/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]The law of the LORD [is] perfect[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, sans-serif], [/FONT][FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]converting the soul[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]: the testimony of the LORD [is] sure, making wise the simple. [Psalms 19:7][/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]And [/FONT][FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]I will walk at liberty: for I seek thy precepts[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]. [Psalms 119:45][/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]See also "I have seen an [/FONT][FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]end of all perfection[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]: [but] [/FONT][FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]thy commandment [is] exceeding broad[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]." [Psalms 119:96][/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]James also goes on to say that every one in Christ Jesus is to, "...keep himself unspotted from the world." [James 1:27;p][/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]Later then James says,[/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]James 2:8 [/FONT][FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]If ye [/FONT][FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]fulfil [/FONT][FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]the royal law[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, sans-serif] according to the scripture[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, sans-serif], [/FONT][FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, sans-serif], ye do well: [/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]What "scripture"? Verily the OT texts! We see that James connects this "Royal Law" which is to be fulfilled "according to the scripture" that "Thou shalt love thy Neighbour as thyself." which is a quotation from Leviticus 19:17-18, which is direct connection to the Ten Commandments, which to transgress is "sin" [see also Leviticus 19:2-3, "Ye shall be holy: for I the LORD your God [am] holy...and keep my sabbaths: I [am] the LORD your God."]:[/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]Thou shalt [/FONT][FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]not hate thy brother in thine heart[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]: thou shalt in any wise rebuke thy neighbour, and [/FONT][FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]not suffer sin upon him[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]. [Leviticus 19:17][/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]Thou shalt not avenge, nor bear any grudge against the children of thy people, but [/FONT][FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]: I [am] the LORD. [Leviticus 19:18][/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]For James verily continues with,[/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]James 2:9[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, sans-serif] But if ye have respect to persons, [/FONT][FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]ye commit sin[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, sans-serif], and [/FONT][FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]are convinced of the law[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, sans-serif] as transgressors[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, sans-serif].[/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]Notice, again ther direct connection with the words "commit sin" with " are convicted of the law as transgressors." and recompare yet once more to 1 John 3:4.[/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]How then shall we know what the "Law of Liberty" is for sure? James is even more clear:[/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]James 2:10[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, sans-serif] For whosoever shall [/FONT][FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]keep the whole law[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, sans-serif], and yet [/FONT][FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]offend in one[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, sans-serif] [point], he is [/FONT][FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]guilty of all[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]. [/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]James 2:11[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, sans-serif] For he that said, [/FONT][FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]Do not commit adultery[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, sans-serif], said also, [/FONT][FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]Do not kill[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law.[/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]James 2:12[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, sans-serif] So [/FONT][FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]speak[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, sans-serif] ye, and so [/FONT][FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]do[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, sans-serif], as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty. [/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]Thus we see that the "Law of Liberty" is the very "Law" of God, the Ten Commandments, for James cites portions of the 2nd Table of God's Holy Law, Commandments 5-10, dealing with the Love to Neighbour [neigh brother], and if this is not fulilled, or as James says, "whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one", he then "is guilty of all". They are solidified in the Scriptures as One Law, The Ten Commandments. Notice, that to "commit sin" is to "become a transgressor of the law" [period].[/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]James therefore as Paul says ["Because the carnal mind [is] enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be." Romans 8:7 and "For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;" Romans 3:23],[/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]James 4:4 [/FONT][FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]Ye [/FONT][FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]adulterers and adulteresses[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, sans-serif], know ye not that the [/FONT][FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]friendship of the world is enmity with God[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]? whosoever therefore will be a [/FONT][FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]friend of the world[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, sans-serif] is the [/FONT][FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]enemy of God[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, sans-serif].[/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]James 4:7[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]Submit yourselves therefore to God[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you. [/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]James 4:8[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, sans-serif] Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. [/FONT][FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]Cleanse [your] hands, [ye] sinners[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]; and purify [your] hearts, [ye] double minded.[/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]And then James mentions those who judge the Law, and those that do so, are not doers of it:[/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]James 4:11[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, sans-serif] Speak not evil one of another, brethren. He that speaketh evil of [his] brother, and judgeth his brother, [/FONT][FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]speaketh evil of the law, and judgeth the law[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]: but [/FONT][FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]if thou judge the law, thou art not a doer of the law, but a judge[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, sans-serif].[/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]James 4:12[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, sans-serif] There is [/FONT][FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]one lawgiver[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, sans-serif], who is able to save and to destroy: who art thou that judgest another? [/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]How many lawgivers? One.[/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]James 4:17[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, sans-serif] Therefore to him that [/FONT][FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]knoweth to do good, and doeth [it] not, to him it is sin.[/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]James equates knowing to do good [and the Law of God, the Ten Commandments, "the Law" as Paul says are, "...holy, just and good..." Romans 7:12;p] and not doing it, is "sin", and thus we are right back to 1 John 3:4, with all of the Law and the Testimony, the Prophets and the Apostles in perfect harmony with Jesus Christ the Lawgiver, who is both able to save and destroy. [/FONT]

First that isn't the context in which Paul mentions Christian liberty. Paul doesn't give permission to sin. Paul does say the Christian is free from the law in and by several passages.

I'll say this for sure - you're very good in the use of sophistry. Your post is to long to comment further. No one or very few would read it. I didn't read all of your post for this very reason. I've responded to such material in lengthy detail in the past. Read the Archives. BTW there are some other great posters there as well.

 

[from scratch]

Not to really take part between your conversation, but if I may make a comment, and that is that "Joshua" [the name and even entire book] is the name of Jesus, in Hebrew. See also Acts 7:45 and Hebrews 4:8 ["Jesus" is actually "Joshua, the son of Nun" in both cases]

ehehehehehehehehe

 

[Keachian]

Not to really take part between your conversation, but if I may make a comment, and that is that "Joshua" [the name and even entire book] is the name of Jesus, in Hebrew. See also Acts 7:45 and Hebrews 4:8 ["Jesus" is actually "Joshua, the son of Nun" in both cases]

But you don't follow the argument of Hebrews 4 to it's conclusion, in picking back up the Sabbath delivered by Moses the book of Hebrews says that you are missing out on the rest that Christ delivers to the People of God which is the rest of God. But then none of your theology stands up to a consistent reading of Hebrews.

 

[robinvanpersie]

So would you please quote any verse in the books of Moses that use or name Jesus by name? Moses first wrote about Jesus in Gen 1:26. The next mention is 3:15.

The word Yeshua = God's salvation* Go find that in the "Old Testament".

 

[Serpentslayer]

Gods laws are still in effect.

God's laws are RESULT DRIVEN and not outward fleshly observances.

Sanctified Christians by the hand of God the Holy Spirit are the LAW BOOK that GOD BINDS, therefore the Christian is the WALKING LAW because God says so when he wrote them in us.

Leviticus outward observances were ONLY A VEHICLE to achieve the RESULTS that God had intended, with the result being CIRCUMCISION OF THE HEART.

Since The Lord of the Sabbath God the Holy Spirit indwells a sanctified Christian there is absolutely NO NEED FOR THE OUTWARD VEHICLE to achieve God's intended results, for God the Holy Spirit achieves them himself through us.

Now Saint Paul even brings the fulfilment of God's declared word to his New Testament house of Israel (Apostolic Church) to a deeper meaning and he writes in:

Romans 2:12-15
12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law; 13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified. 14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: 15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another

Here Saint Paul states it eloquently by saying the Gentile believers which did not have the outward written Law contained in the Leviticus observances did by FIRST NATURE those exact things that were contained in the Law. Therefore they are a LAW UNTO THEMSELVES meaning they are THE WALKING LAW because God the Holy Spirit writes them in their hearts.

 

[from scratch]

The word Yeshua = God's salvation* Go find that in the "Old Testament".

support your idea with Bible quotes. Don't expect me to do your job. So far you've not answered the question. Personally I don't think you can.

 

[from scratch]

Gods laws are still in effect.

God's laws are RESULT DRIVEN and not outward fleshly observances.

Sanctified Christians by the hand of God the Holy Spirit are the LAW BOOK that GOD BINDS, therefore the Christian is the WALKING LAW because God says so when he wrote them in us.

Leviticus outward observances were ONLY A VEHICLE to achieve the RESULTS that God had intended, with the result being CIRCUMCISION OF THE HEART.

Since The Lord of the Sabbath God the Holy Spirit indwells a sanctified Christian there is absolutely NO NEED FOR THE OUTWARD VEHICLE to achieve God's intended results, for God the Holy Spirit achieves them himself through us.

Now Saint Paul even brings the fulfilment of God's declared word to his New Testament house of Israel (Apostolic Church) to a deeper meaning and he writes in:



Here Saint Paul states it eloquently by saying the Gentile believers which did not have the outward written Law contained in the Leviticus observances did by FIRST NATURE those exact things that were contained in the Law. Therefore they are a LAW UNTO THEMSELVES meaning they are THE WALKING LAW because God the Holy Spirit writes them in their hearts.

Welcome to GT.

Hate to inform you that the going will be very tuff here.

You are promoting a works salvation which is contrary to the Bible. God's law in the form of the covenant made with Israel isn't written on our heart because the law written on our heart isn't according to the covenant made with their fathers per Jer 31:32.

Jesus is the den of the law for righteousness without which no man can see God (have salvation) Rom 10:4. Furthermore we're delivered from the law per Rom 7:6. Jesus didn't bring the law according to John 1:17.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Originally Posted by Leuko Petra

Liberty not from Obedience... it is Liberty from Sin, Satan, Selfishness, which is transgression of the Law...
​

Originally Posted by Serpentslayer

Gods laws are still in effect.
​

Welcome to GT.

Hate to inform you that the going will be very tuff here.

You are promoting a works salvation which is contrary to the Bible. God's law in the form of the covenant made with Israel isn't written on our heart because the law written on our heart isn't according to the covenant made with their fathers per Jer 31:32.
.

It is repeated in Chapt 8 of the book of Hebrews

http://www.christianforums.com/t7326950-12/
New Covenant of Jeremiah 31 Hebrew 8

In verse 32 of Jeremiah 31 again the hebrew word #03772 is used as in verse 31, but now the greek word used in Hebrew 8:9 is different than that used in verse 8.
This is actually the first time I noticed this. Thoughts.

Jeremiah 31:32
Not as-Covenant which I Cut/Made/03772 karath with fathers of them in day of to take-hold of Me in-hand-of them to-bring-forth of them from land of Egypt, which they-broke that Covenant-of-Me and-I, I-possessed in them, declaration-of YHWH.

Hebrew 8:9
Not according-as the Covenant/diaqhkhn <1242> which I make/epoihsa <4160> (5656) to the fathers of them in day of on-getting of Me the hand of them, to be out leading them out of land of Egypt, that they not in-remain in the Covenant/diaqhkh <1242> of Me, and I, I un-care of them, is saying Lord.

4160. poieo poy-eh'-o apparently a prolonged form of an obsolete primary; to make or do (in a very wide application, more or less direct):--

.

 

[FredVB]

No, no. the issue was the change of the law. Not a jot nor a tittle could pass prior to the passing of the earth. Yet we have a change of the law. This means a jot or tittle has passed and to coincide with your view also has the earth. The only other choice we have either Matthew or Hebrews is wrong. So which is it? You must deny part of the Bible to hold your view. You've been shown how to rectify this with the Gospel of Luke which also quotes Jesus.

Okay, we could understand each other better, but would it really happen? So there is a change in the law. But none of it passed away. I see it in the Bible. It is still there. There was fulfillment, Christ does that for the sacrifice, which was once for all, the priesthood, and the way to be made clean. There are other things not fulfilled, remember he said something about till all is fulfilled (Daniel 9:24)? There is not yet an end to sin, there is still plenty of sin.

 

[toolmanjantzi]

I would like to ask is Heb 7:12 wrong. If is not I desperately need it explained how and how it agrees with the law. Does it violate Mat 5:17-18?

bugkiller

No. Read further.

Who is made, not after the law of a carnal commandment, but after the power of an endless life. (Hebrews 7:16 KJV)

 

[from scratch]

Okay, we could understand each other better, but would it really happen? So there is a change in the law. But none of it passed away. I see it in the Bible. It is still there. There was fulfillment, Christ does that for the sacrifice, which was once for all, the priesthood, and the way to be made clean. There are other things not fulfilled, remember he said something about till all is fulfilled (Daniel 9:24)? There is not yet an end to sin, there is still plenty of sin.

Why do you continue to say the Christian is obligated to the law?

We have these very clear words Not according to... in both Testaments.

 

[from scratch]

No. Read further.

Who is made, not after the law of a carnal commandment, but after the power of an endless life. (Hebrews 7:16 KJV)

Then what does Mat 5 relate to? The law obviously changed.