The books of Hebrews and Revelation prove the unchangeableness of God's Holy Law. (2)

[from scratch]

Jesus fulfilled the law, so all the ceremonial and sacrificial laws were abolished and done away with. If there weren't, they we should still be doing animal sacrifices, mandatory circumcisions, burnt offerings, and new moon festivals.

To say all of the original law is still in place is absolutely foolish.

The weekly Sabbath is purely ceremonial.

 

[Sophrosyne]

The weekly Sabbath is purely ceremonial.

I would have to agree with this because moral laws are valid every day of the week and many other civilizations have chosen to "keep" most of the commandments one way or another but I've never heard of any but the Jews keeping the Sabbath (or those who rely on scripture based upon the Jews).

 

[robinvanpersie]

The covenant made with Israel is the law. So if we're talking about covenants in this sense a covenant is the law.

Verse 31 says a new covenant.

Verse 32 says not like the one already made.

Heb 8 says a new covenant based on better promises, not law.

The covenant made with Israel is the law.

Unfortunately this is an erroneous statement and often misinterpretation/translation.
The covenant is the agreement. The law is definitely part of the agreement, but not the agreement itself.
Just like a marriage covenant is an agreement. The rules, stipulations, commitments, promises and vows are not the marriage covenant, but are certainly part of said covenant.

It’s a common mistake to equate the law of God with the covenant. However what God was or more correctly will be changing is the agreement and not the rules of said agreement. In fact He goes out of His way to again reiterate that this new agreement will ALSO have “MY Law” (the same one) in its makeup, this time to be written on the hearts and minds of His people.

The Law of God is perfect and everlasting. [Psalm 119:89, Psalm 119:160] His Law will certainly not pass away until heaven and earth do. (Yeshua’s words- Matt5:17-20| Luke 16:17)

 

[Sophrosyne]

It’s a common mistake to equate the law of God with the covenant.

Not a mistake at all, the Law is part of a covenant with the Children of Israel, it was not required of those who were NOT of Israel during any instance of the Old Testament at all in any instance was anyone other than Israel required to keep the Law. If I remember correctly a covenant is a contract between God and someone (Israel for example) and it requires the people within the covenant to do certain things in exchange for something God does for them. In the Old Covenant they were to keep certain laws in exchange for certain things. I haven't seen any Sabbath Keeper deny God does things for them BECAUSE they keep the Sabbath thus there must be some agreement between them and God or COVENANT spelled out prior to such.

 

[robinvanpersie]

The weekly Sabbath is purely ceremonial.

Does this sound ceremonial to you?

"How blessed is the man who does this, and the son of man who takes hold of it; who keeps from profaning the sabbath, and keeps his hand from doing any evil." Isaiah 56:2

"If because of the sabbath, you turn your foot from doing your own pleasure on My holy day, and call the sabbath a delight, the holy day of the LORD honorable, and honor it, desisting from your own ways, from seeking your own pleasure and speaking your own word, Then you will take delight in the LORD, and I will make you ride on the heights of the earth; And I will feed you with the heritage of Jacob your father, for the mouth of the LORD has spoken." Isaiah 58:13-14

But I guess more importantly, I'd love to see where God separates His law in 'parts'...

 

[robinvanpersie]

Not a mistake at all, the Law is part of a covenant with the Children of Israel, it was not required of those who were NOT of Israel during any instance of the Old Testament at all in any instance was anyone other than Israel required to keep the Law.

Thanks for bringing that up. Throughout the “Old Testament” any believer who wanted to join themselves to the God of Israel, was grafted in, or joined the people of God. This is why there was a mixed multitude (non Israelites- Exodus 12:38) who left Egypt with the Israelites, joining themselves to the God of Israel and His people.
This is why God made it a point to the importance of having ONE standard for both Israelites and non-Israelites as a unit. [Exodus 12:49, Leviticus 22:24] In Joshua 8:35 we see that there were non-Israelites present when the Covenant was given again and the Law re-read with Joshua.

So your argument that there were believers outside or Israel with “a different set of right and wrong rules” is actually not substantiated. Those who believed, back then as now joined the Household of God and followed His rules!

 

[Keachian]

Thanks for bringing that up. Throughout the “Old Testament” any believer who wanted to join themselves to the God of Israel, was grafted in, or joined the people of God. This is why there was a mixed multitude (non Israelites- Exodus 12:38) who left Egypt with the Israelites, joining themselves to the God of Israel and His people.
This is why God made it a point to the importance of having ONE standard for both Israelites and non-Israelites as a unit. [Exodus 12:49, Leviticus 22:24] In Joshua 8:35 we see that there were non-Israelites present when the Covenant was given again and the Law re-read with Joshua.

So your argument that there were believers outside or Israel with “a different set of right and wrong rules” is actually not substantiated. Those who believed, back then as now joined the Household of God and followed His rules!

You know you're right in a sense, but you've skimmed over a glaring omission, you see proselytes to Judaism were required to become circumcised according to the Law. Gentiles do not need to be circumcised in order to join the Church, something radical has changed and you don't recognize it. It's a wonder that you even recognize Jesus as the Messiah

 

[Keachian]

Does this sound ceremonial to you?

"How blessed is the man who does this, and the son of man who takes hold of it; who keeps from profaning the sabbath, and keeps his hand from doing any evil." Isaiah 56:2

"If because of the sabbath, you turn your foot from doing your own pleasure on My holy day, and call the sabbath a delight, the holy day of the LORD honorable, and honor it, desisting from your own ways, from seeking your own pleasure and speaking your own word, Then you will take delight in the LORD, and I will make you ride on the heights of the earth; And I will feed you with the heritage of Jacob your father, for the mouth of the LORD has spoken." Isaiah 58:13-14

But I guess more importantly, I'd love to see where God separates His law in 'parts'...

So when the Law was changed following the change in Priesthood(Hebrew 7) you must recognise that there is no longer any obligation to the Law of Moses, which didn't give the People of God the rest of God (Hebrew 3-4)

 

[Sophrosyne]

Thanks for bringing that up. Throughout the “Old Testament” any believer who wanted to join themselves to the God of Israel, was grafted in, or joined the people of God. This is why there was a mixed multitude (non Israelites- Exodus 12:38) who left Egypt with the Israelites, joining themselves to the God of Israel and His people.
This is why God made it a point to the importance of having ONE standard for both Israelites and non-Israelites as a unit. [Exodus 12:49, Leviticus 22:24] In Joshua 8:35 we see that there were non-Israelites present when the Covenant was given again and the Law re-read with Joshua.

So your argument that there were believers outside or Israel with “a different set of right and wrong rules” is actually not substantiated. Those who believed, back then as now joined the Household of God and followed His rules!

You are trying to split hairs, If God sees people as Israelites they ARE such and ONLY Israel was able to partake of the Old Covenant. Just because you make a distinction of such God doesn't see it that way. Ask any Lawyer on the planet if illegal aliens have the same rights as legal citizens of almost any country... None will agree with you unless the country doesn't take citizenship seriously and God took it deadly seriously having Israelites killed for breaking his covenant while non Israelites were NOT.

 

[Sophrosyne]

So your argument that there were believers outside or Israel with “a different set of right and wrong rules” is actually not substantiated. Those who believed, back then as now joined the Household of God and followed His rules!

People who believed didn't automatically "KNOW" to keep the Sabbath and many other rules under the Law they had to be instructed of such rules. If you think otherwise I really see no point in arguing with you about it.

 

[robinvanpersie]

You are trying to split hairs, If God sees people as Israelites they ARE such and ONLY Israel was able to partake of the Old Covenant. Just because you make a distinction of such God doesn't see it that way. Ask any Lawyer on the planet if illegal aliens have the same rights as legal citizens of almost any country... None will agree with you unless the country doesn't take citizenship seriously and God took it deadly seriously having Israelites killed for breaking his covenant while non Israelites were NOT.

Are you seriously discounting God's incredible grace in including us wild olive branches and grafting us among the Household of faith?

Ephesians 2 clearly shows us how we were outside the covenant, strangers to the citizenship, without God and without hope.

But through Christ, us Gentiles (non-Israelites) who were once far off are brought near, therefore becoming FELLOW-citizens and FELLOW-partakers with the Saints.
--

Are you fellow-partakers to Abraham's heir?
Do you claim any part in the new covenant?

 

[robinvanpersie]

People who believed didn't automatically "KNOW" to keep the Sabbath and many other rules under the Law they had to be instructed of such rules.

Who in the world is arguing that new believers need to be instructed in God’s ways? <shakes head>

In fact even in Acts 15:21 the apostles make it clear that the Law of God will be taught on a weekly basis to believers congregating in the temple, but made sure they IMMEDIATELY broke away from their pagan ways, by instituting 4 instructions regarding their pagan practices.

The whole point of God’s Instructions is just that INSTRUCTIONS, guidelines to living a life that pleases Him and is a light to the nations. Every believer who joins himself to God’s household will need to learn ‘line upon line, precept upon precept, here a little, there a little, and as a babe start off with milk before moving to meat.

 

[Sophrosyne]

Are you seriously discounting God's incredible grace in including us wild olive branches and grafting us among the Household of faith?

Ephesians 2 clearly shows us how we were outside the covenant, strangers to the citizenship, without God and without hope.

But through Christ, us Gentiles (non-Israelites) who were once far off are brought near, therefore becoming FELLOW-citizens and FELLOW-partakers with the Saints.
--

Are you fellow-partakers to Abraham's heir?
Do you claim any part in the new covenant?

You are mixing covenants together. In the New Covenant Israel has no special consideration therefore the idea of Israelites and non-Israelites is irrelevant because the New Covenant makes no distinction between the two while the Old Covenant has NO place for non Israelites you MUST become one to partake of it.

 

[Sophrosyne]

Who in the world is arguing that new believers need to be instructed in God’s ways? <shakes head>

You are... you said that believers outside of Israel were keeping the same Law that Israel was and Logic says that most likely may not be the truth at all.
[/quote]
In fact even in Acts 15:21 the apostles make it clear that the Law of God will be taught on a weekly basis to believers congregating in the temple, but made sure they IMMEDIATELY broke away from their pagan ways, by instituting 4 instructions regarding their pagan practices.
[/quote]NO... the temples were not a place that Christianity was taught with permission, in fact at times Paul was beaten and stoned by those running the temples for doing such. temples were NOT Christian... Period.

The whole point of God’s Instructions is just that INSTRUCTIONS, guidelines to living a life that pleases Him and is a light to the nations. Every believer who joins himself to God’s household will need to learn ‘line upon line, precept upon precept, here a little, there a little, and as a babe start off with milk before moving to meat.

You ignore the instructions given in the New Testament and the ones SPECIFICALLY given in the New Covenant in favor of the Old Covenant instructions. Paul himself was given to us as an instruction and he says that the Law is no longer our instructor if we are in the spirit... we don't need it.
To demand law compliance is to tell Christians that they are not under the spirit and is judging them as IN THE FLESH.

 

[robinvanpersie]

You are mixing covenants together. In the New Covenant Israel has no special consideration therefore the idea of Israelites and non-Israelites is irrelevant because the New Covenant makes no distinction between the two while the Old Covenant has NO place for non Israelites you MUST become one to partake of it.

WOW. Please read and re-read Jeremiah 31 and Hebrews 8 and tell me where you see ANYTHING even remotely close to "Israel has no special considerations".

You are perfectly showing how oblivious people are when they confidently claim the new covenant as their own, notwithstanding the clear Israel connotations. Jeremiah 31:1 starts with : "At that time," declares the LORD, "I will be the God of all the families of Israel, and they shall be My people." and ends with verses 36-37 stating: "If this fixed order departs from before Me," declares the LORD, "Then the offspring of Israel also will cease from being a nation before Me forever." Thus says the LORD, "If the heavens above can be measured and the foundations of the earth searched out below, then I will also cast off all the offspring of Israel for all that they have done," declares the LORD."

It's quite unbelievable...the stance that you are taking.

 

[Sophrosyne]

WOW. Please read and re-read Jeremiah 31 and Hebrews 8 and tell me where you see ANYTHING even remotely close to "Israel has no special considerations".

You are perfectly showing how oblivious people are when they confidently claim the new covenant as their own, notwithstanding the clear Israel connotations. Jeremiah 31:1 starts with : "At that time," declares the LORD, "I will be the God of all the families of Israel, and they shall be My people." and ends with verses 36-37 stating: "If this fixed order departs from before Me," declares the LORD, "Then the offspring of Israel also will cease from being a nation before Me forever." Thus says the LORD, "If the heavens above can be measured and the foundations of the earth searched out below, then I will also cast off all the offspring of Israel for all that they have done," declares the LORD."

It's quite unbelievable...the stance that you are taking.

I'm sorry but that scripture isn't equating anything regarding the New Covenant which Paul equates Jew and Gentile are THE SAME. Israel as far as the New Covenant is concerned has no special considerations after Paul was sent to the Gentiles ALL Christians, Jew (Israelis) and Gentiles are EQUAL partakers of Salvation through Jesus. I won't equate other covenants that you apparently are unable to sort out from the Old Testament confusing them with the New Covenant.
God made many promises in the Old Testament to People most of which are included in the Old Covenant, some are not. The scripture you equate here is not applicable to the New Covenant.... NON SEQUITOR.

 

[robinvanpersie]

You are... you said that believers outside of Israel were keeping the same Law that Israel was and Logic says that most likely may not be the truth at all.

Logic says? Show me anywhere in Scripture that teaches that believers “outside of Israel” were keeping anything but the Torah. I’ve already showed you countless times where God went out of His way to emphasize that both Israel and those without Israeli blood running through their veins [BELIEVERS] all must live according to the same standard.

NO... the temples were not a place that Christianity was taught with permission,

Only because no such thing as “Christianity” existed in the “New Testament”. The sect of the Nazarenes as they were called was actually a sect of Judaism, ironically enough.

in fact at times Paul was beaten and stoned by those running the temples for doing such. temples were NOT Christian... Period.

I’m pretty sure you, as a Christian are very aware of the apostasy and heresy being taught in Churches by pastors today. I would be the last one to group and categorize entire Christianity or churches in general with these heretics. Just as we have that today, back then there were those –tens of thousands who believed in Yeshua and kept the commandments and there were those, leaders who hated believers in Yeshua. You can’t take instances where they were persecuted by “jews” any more than I can group Christians with the crusades. Or catholics. Etc.

You ignore the instructions given in the New Testament and the ones SPECIFICALLY given in the New Covenant in favor of the Old Covenant instructions. Paul himself was given to us as an instruction and he says that the Law is no longer our instructor if we are in the spirit... we don't need it.
To demand law compliance is to tell Christians that they are not under the spirit and is judging them as IN THE FLESH.

I just see God’s Word as an inseparable unit. NO such thing as a New Testament VS Old Testament.

 

[robinvanpersie]

I'm sorry but that scripture isn't equating anything regarding the New Covenant which Paul equates Jew and Gentile are THE SAME. Israel as far as the New Covenant is concerned has no special considerations after Paul was sent to the Gentiles ALL Christians, Jew (Israelis) and Gentiles are EQUAL partakers of Salvation through Jesus. I won't equate other covenants that you apparently are unable to sort out from the Old Testament confusing them with the New Covenant.
God made many promises in the Old Testament to People most of which are included in the Old Covenant, some are not. The scripture you equate here is not applicable to the New Covenant.... NON SEQUITOR.

You can talk about your "interpretations" all you want.
At the end of the day...to properly describe the NEW COVENANT, you must go to the text describing the New Covenant.

Unfortunately those texts all begin with "THIS IS THE NEW COVENANT THAT I WILL MAKE WITH THEM"

Who is them?

 

[Sophrosyne]

Logic says? Show me anywhere in Scripture that teaches that believers “outside of Israel” were keeping anything but the Torah. I’ve already showed you countless times where God went out of His way to emphasize that both Israel and those without Israeli blood running through their veins [BELIEVERS] all must live according to the same standard.

I don't reply to arguments using the word TORAH... it is meaningless to me and misused to confuse people. Either choose the Law, Mosaic Law, Old Covenant or I will ignore such inferences.

Only because no such thing as “Christianity” existed in the “New Testament”. The sect of the Nazarenes as they were called was actually a sect of Judaism, ironically enough.

Christianity as a word may not have existed but what the word defines definitely existed.... Paul wrote over half the New Testament as proof of such. Paul was sent to Gentiles and most of his writings were dealing directly with problems Gentile believers faced some BECAUSE of Judaism.

I’m pretty sure you, as a Christian are very aware of the apostasy and heresy being taught in Churches by pastors today. I would be the last one to group and categorize entire Christianity or churches in general with these heretics. Just as we have that today, back then there were those –tens of thousands who believed in Yeshua and kept the commandments and there were those, leaders who hated believers in Yeshua. You can’t take instances where they were persecuted by “jews” any more than I can group Christians with the crusades. Or catholics. Etc.

Yes.... I am aware that as in the Bible in Acts at the council of Jerusalem where Paul fought of Jews trying to put Gentiles under the Law of Moses is being taught in Churches today. I think pastors should be ashamed of themselves for ignoring the decision of the council and demand compliance to things Paul fought against. I believe it equal to apostacy and heresy to reject Paul's writings and confuse belivers to get them to bow to the Mosaic Law while calling it the New Covenant and Christianity.

I just see God’s Word as an inseparable unit. NO such thing as a New Testament VS Old Testament.

Herein lies the crux of your problem. I see them as separable units. I believe that it is hard just by reading the Old Testament to be saved by Christ, but without any knowledge of the Old Testament one can be saved by Christ only reading the New Testament. They are separable but that doesn't mean the Old Testament is not useful for Christians to read at all.

 

[from scratch]

Are you seriously discounting God's incredible grace in including us wild olive branches and grafting us among the Household of faith?

Ephesians 2 clearly shows us how we were outside the covenant, strangers to the citizenship, without God and without hope.

But through Christ, us Gentiles (non-Israelites) who were once far off are brought near, therefore becoming FELLOW-citizens and FELLOW-partakers with the Saints.
--

Are you fellow-partakers to Abraham's heir?
Do you claim any part in the new covenant?

Isn't it interesting that Abraham wasn't a Israelite of Jew? And isn't it interesting that even they must be graft into the tree? The Christian isn't graft into Israel. We're graft into Jesus the Root.