Should Revelations be studied?

[brinny]

^ what he said

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Originally Posted by martymonster And indeed it cannot be understood but by comparing it with the rest of scripture and the holy spirit.

^ what he said

^ what she said

 

[brinny]

LOL!

 

[Strong in Him]

There are many incorrect theories floating around about what Revelations teaches, this being the case, shouldn't the church have the best understanding (as good as possible that is) in regards to this book?

Even move, do you think that Revelations is important to salvation and our mission to preach the gospel?

It depends which revelations you are talking about.

If you mean the book of Revelation, then yes, why not? (Though I haven't yet done so, apart from the first 4 chapters.)

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Originally Posted by Stryder06

There are many incorrect theories floating around about what Revelations teaches, this being the case, shouldn't the church have the best understanding (as good as possible that is) in regards to this book?

Even move, do you think that Revelations is important to salvation and our mission to preach the gospel?
​

It depends which revelations you are talking about.

If you mean the book of Revelation, then yes, why not? (Though I haven't yet done so, apart from the first 4 chapters.)

Are you up to Chapt 5 now?



.

 

[Gregory Thompson]

As Christians, and those anticipating the coming of our Lord, should it be of importance to the body of Christ to study and understand the last book of the bible?

There are many incorrect theories floating around about what Revelations teaches, this being the case, shouldn't the church have the best understanding (as good as possible that is) in regards to this book?

Even move, do you think that Revelations is important to salvation and our mission to preach the gospel?

Sure, i mean in the latter chapters it says The testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy . kind of an important thing to leave out isn't it?

 

[MoreCoffee]

The Catholic Church recommends the study of the Apocalypse of saint John the divine for its ability to shed light on the ancient church's liturgy and the liturgy today. Those who use the book as a kind of crystal ball through which the future might be foreseen have misunderstood the book and the purposes of God.

 

[Strong in Him]

Are you up to Chapt 5 now?

No.

I need to be strong to try to tackle Revelation, and at the moment I'm having too much fun in the OT; no, really. I have an electronc Bible so I'm listening to whole books at a time. I'm also reading "unlocking the Bible" by David Pawson. I'll get to Revelation one day.

 

[Strong in Him]

Those who use the book as a kind of crystal ball through which the future might be foreseen have misunderstood the book and the purposes of God.

That's kind of what puts me off; the teaching that the dragon means this, the 4 horsemen are this and we're up to the 5th plague, or will be any day now. Everyone seems to have a different view about these things anyway; just go to the eschatology board. It's hard to see the whole when you're getting bogged down in the detail.

 

[Gnarwhal]

If only there were stricter policies in Eschatology as to what was permitted or not. Eschatology would be a much more sober place if the crystal ball stuff wasn't allowed.

 

[rockytopva]

After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter. - Revelation 4:1

Revelation is all about the hereafter. There is a blessing for those who read the words of this prophecy...


Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand. - Revelation 1:3

Did I say prophecy? Yes! And a prophecy predicts the future... Remember when satan showed the Lord the kingdoms of this world as in a moment after the Lord's 40 day fast? Yes... Even satan can divine the future... How much more can the Christ?

"The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches." - Revelation 1:20


---The seven candlesticks are the seven churches
--- The seven stars are the messengers (angels) within the church

"These things saith he that holdeth the seven stars in his right hand, who walketh in the midst of the seven golden candlesticks;" - Revelation 2:1

Christ Jesus walks in the midst of the seven churches, which are...

1. Ephesus – Apostolic – Leaving the first love… “All they which are in Asia be turned away…” – II Timothy 1:15
2. Smyrna – Martyrs – Persecutions ten days… Foxes Book of Martyrs describes ten Roman persecutions.
3. Pergamos – Orthodox – A pyrgos is a fortified structure – Needed for the dark ages.
4. Thyatira – Catholic – The Spirit of Jezebel is to persecute, control, and to dominate. Can invade any church!
5. Sardis – Protestant – A sardius is a gem, elegant yet hard and rigid. Doctrine in the head, little in the heart.
6. Philadelphia – Methodist – To obtain sanctification was to do so with love.
7. Laodicea – Charismatic – Rich and increased with goods and have need of nothing?

So whether you are Baptist, Catholic, Anglican, Orthodox, Pentecostal, Charismatic, or whatever Christian sect... Christ walks in the midst of you when you gather in his name. And he also holds you in his right hand!

 

[Strong in Him]

So whether you are Baptist, Catholic, Anglican, Orthodox, Pentecostal, Charismatic, or whatever Christian sect... Christ walks in the midst of you when you gather in his name. And he also holds you in his right hand!

But we would know that anyway, even without the book of Revelation. Jesus said that where 2 or 3 are gathered in his name, he is there in the midst of them. He said that no one can ever snatch us from his Father's hand, (John 10:28). This applies to all believers, even those who may not go to church, (for health, or other, reasons.)

And if the church at Philidelphia represents the Methodists, which I very much doubt, then they are one of the two churches not to be rebuked by the Lord. Maybe you'd better tell that to everyone who criticises us for ordaining women!

 

[rockytopva]

And if the church at Philidelphia represents the Methodists, which I very much doubt, then they are one of the two churches not to be rebuked by the Lord. Maybe you'd better tell that to everyone who criticises us for ordaining women!

If I were talking to people astute in history then they would see the metaphor. I said Methodist as a generality. During Wesley's time it also encompassed other movements such as the Moravians and AnaBaptist.

Key phrase, Philadelphia, which is love. These people were also the persecutees and not the persecutors, such as was in previous church ages, which denominations could not stand for company.

 

[MoreCoffee]

After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter. - Revelation 4:1

Revelation is all about the hereafter. There is a blessing for those who read the words of this prophecy...

Some of the Apocalypse is about the hereafter (that which comes after death), some of it is about the here and now of the first century AD, and some of it is about the past, specifically the history of Israel leading to the coming of Messiah.

Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand. - Revelation 1:3

 

[Strong in Him]

Some of the Apocalypse is about the hereafter (that which comes after death), some of it is about the here and now of the first century AD, and some of it is about the past, specifically the history of Israel leading to the coming of Messiah.

That's what I was always told; that Revelation is about past, present (i.e the present of the time) and future.

 

[Strong in Him]

If I were talking to people astute in history then they would see the metaphor. I said Methodist as a generality.

No you didn't; you said "Philadelphia - Methodist."

 

[rockytopva]

No you didn't; you said "Philadelphia - Methodist."

In which, I confess my error. The Methodist movement is influenced by the Laodicean church age. The Laodicean age IMHO represents our time tooth and nail. Read the comments by one of its own scholars...

Why Are We Lukewarm? I
Why Are We Lukewarm? II
Why Are We Lukewarm? III

Excerpts...

"When we ask why Methodists have grown lukewarm, it is well to accept Wesley's own analysis as an important part of the answer. We have grown lukewarm because we have become rich. - John B Cobb

I have selected the term "lukewarm," of course, because of Christ's message to the church of Laodicea in the third chapter of the book of Revelation. "I know your works; you are neither cold nor hot. I wish you were either cold or hot. So, because you are lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I am about to spit you out of my mouth." (Rev. 3:15-16) These words attributed to the heavenly Christ seem extremely harsh, considering that the church of Laodicea had done nothing particularly bad. But the point may be that a lukewarm church has no future.

So, what happened?

In the years after World War II we have encountered a variety of challenges. These have taken the form especially of forcing us to see that the Christian record is a very mixed one, that the way we have followed Christ has caused great evil as well as great good. We can recover the conviction that following Christ is our unqualified calling only if we reconceive Christ and what it means to be disciples.

Individuals have proposed reconceptualizations that are very promising. But these have been viewed as their private work. The denominations as a whole have made modest adjustments and sometimes acknowledged past failures. But they have not debated the issues and come to fresh conclusions. Most of their members suppose that the churches are committed to just that teaching that had the negative consequences we deplore. Rightly, they refuse to affirm these teachings with enthusiasm. They are not aware of other ways to understand Christ and discipleship. The result can only be lukewarmness.

I have already mentioned one of the most important challenges, that of religious pluralism. For most of Christian history, most Christians have affirmed Christ in a way that negated the positive value of other religious traditions. As members of these other religious communities became friends and neighbors, this kind of Christology ceased to be convincing. Few are aware that Christ can be conceived in ways that are free from this exclusivism and pejorative treatment of others without reducing Christ's centrality. Accordingly they weaken their commitment to Christ so as to avoid the negative consequences of strong commitment. The result can only be lukewarness. How this can be avoided will be the topic of my second lecture.

John Wesley, the founder of the Methodist movement, to which I belong, had strong views about money. In his later years, surveying the remarkable success of the movement he had started, he said that he had no fear about its continuation. His great fear was for its inner spirit. He had observed two things. First, although most converts to Methodism were poor, many moved into the middle class. Second, middle class Methodists divided their loyalties between God and the acquisition of wealth. For the latter I have chosen to use the word familiar to us from the King James and early revised versions of the Bible: Mammon.

The upward mobility Wesley observed with distress is easily understood. In the spirit of the earlier Reformers, Wesley taught that Methodists should earn all they could, save all they could, and give all they could. He himself earned quite a lot through his many publications, lived frugally, and gave away what he did not need. Hence he accumulated no private treasure to distract his attention from doing God's work. His followers became disciplined workers and lived frugally. Many of them were generous with their money. But this generosity did not prevent the accumulation of some capital and its wise investment. The security and growth of this capital became a matter of concern to them, competing for their attention with their service to God.

When we ask why Methodists have grown lukewarm, it is well to accept Wesley's own analysis as an important part of the answer. We have grown lukewarm because we have become rich. Despite Jesus' specific denial of this possibility, we try to serve both God and Mammon. I fear that, in this respect, we do not differ greatly from Baptists, Episcopalians, Presbyterians, and even Lutherans.

If this is the case, then it may seem that I have been wasting our time by talking about our theological failures as causes of our decline. But I do not think so. Given that it is impossible for middle class churches to have the fervor of original Methodism (or contemporary Pentecostalism), nevertheless, they have their ups and downs. I have been comparing the lukewarmness of the end of the twentieth century with the health of the first part of the century. This may be due in part to the increased wealth of our membership, but not primarily. Our churches were already largely middle class by the beginning of this century. Yet at that time they had strong convictions and acted on them in a way that does not characterize us now. That is the change I have been trying to understand.

Although I do not think the lukewarmness of the oldline churches in our day can be explained primarily by increased wealth during this century, I do think that the ageold struggle of God and Mammon is important to its understanding. Mammon has achieved a cultural and political dominance in today's world that it has never had before. The failure of the church to speak to that change is one reason for its lukewarmness.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Originally Posted by Strong in Him

No you didn't; you said "Philadelphia - Methodist."
​

In which, I confess my error. The Methodist movement is influenced by the Laodicean church age. The Laodicean age IMHO represents our time tooth and nail. Read the comments by one of its own scholars...
.

Which church represents the age of Roman Catholicism and the Papacy?



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[MoreCoffee]

Which church represents the age of Roman Catholicism and the Papacy?

None of them. Since they were all in the province of Asia.

All of them because they are all Catholic.

Some of them because some characteristics are always present and some are always absent in any particular parish.

None of them because the author of The Apocalypse and the Lord did not address any of them to any of today's diocese.

 

[rockytopva]

Which church represents the age of Roman Catholicism and the Papacy?

Was it not told my lord what I did when Jezebel slew the prophets of the Lord, how I hid an hundred men of the Lord's prophets by fifty in a cave, and fed them with bread and water? - 1 Kings 18:13

For it was so, when Jezebel cut off the prophets of the Lord, that Obadiah took an hundred prophets, and hid them by fifty in a cave, and fed them with bread and water. - 1 Kings 18:4

The spirit of Jezebel is to control, dominate, persecute, and to kill. I tell you LLOJ, in earlier times we would be sitting in a dungeon somewhere with somekind of medieval torture device on our body, with a monk awaiting we to recant!

"The world is as round as yer head I tell you." - Galileo

"Heresy! Heresy! To the inquisition with you!" - Yells the priest!