Taking the last point first, Christ is not judging people here on earth. He says it, I say it, and now you're agreeing with it. What's your problem?
With regard to the first point (the angel) Christ's coming is good news for the whole world, insofar as anyone who believes is saved. It is not good news for those who do not and will not believe. You keep trying to make it so, so I'll ask a simple question: Bob is an atheist. Bob never chooses to believe. Bob is unsaved and follows his own path to destruction. How is Christ's atonement of his sins good news for him? It's like winning the lottery but never being sent the cheque.
To pay for the sins of someone else means they do not suffer the punishment for those sins. Yet Bob does in your scheme. Unfair. Much.
Where have I said that I believe that persistent faith cannot be atoned for? We aren't discussing what sins can and cannot be atoned for. We are discussing whether or not all sins are atoned for. And so far, neither of us believe that they are.I dont understand why you have such difficulty with believing that persistent unbelief cant be atoned for. Belief and faith are the means by which one apprehends forgiveness for all other sins so that if faith is lacking one remains unforgiven.
And I don't have a problem with that from a biblical standpoint. The apostles didn't preach that way. The thing is, YOU cannot say that He atoned for everyone's sins, either, because you don't know if they are elect. If they aren't elect, you are lying to them if you say that all of their sins have been atoned for.You have a message of forgiveness but it doesnt apply to everyone because according to what you believe Christ only atoned for the sins of the elect, therefore although you can say that if a person believes and has faith he will be saved, if asked why is belief in Christ saving you cant reply with a blanket "because He atoned for everyones sins".
If they aren't elect, they wouldn't care.Youve got to reply that only those who have faith have had their sins atoned for, which isnt a message a person wants to hear who is struggling with anxiety over their sins and whether they have been elected and can believe.
And that's exactly what you have to tell them, if you are honest.To hear in those circumstances that Christ may not have atoned for one's sins because one may not be one of the elect is a very unpleasant message to hear and only adds to the anxiety.
Tickling itching ears is frowned upon in scripture.On the contrary what one wants to hear is that Christ has atoned for everyones sins including ones own and that Christ is everyones Saviour including ones own.
Stupid analogy, sorry. But a pizza delivery man has an obligation to deliver pizzas to those who pay for them.However you cant tell a person this. Youre like a pizza delivery man who only has pizzas for certain people and therefore you cant assure every hungry person you come across that you have a pizza for him and all he has to do is reach out his hand and take it.
The message of forgiveness that the bible proclaims is that those who believe will be forgiven.Your message of forgiveness is necessarily restricted only to those you believe Christ died for and therefore it isnt good news for everyone but only for some.
I dont understand why you have such difficulty with believing that persistent unbelief cant be atoned for. Belief and faith are the means by which one apprehends forgiveness for all other sins so that if faith is lacking one remains unforgiven.
You have a message of forgiveness but it doesnt apply to everyone because according to what you believe Christ only atoned for the sins of the elect, therefore although you can say that if a person believes and has faith he will be saved, if asked why is belief in Christ saving you cant reply with a blanket "because He atoned for everyones sins". Youve got to reply that only those who have faith have had their sins atoned for, which isnt a message a person wants to hear who is struggling with anxiety over their sins and whether they have been elected and can believe. To hear in those circumstances that Christ may not have atoned for one's sins because one may not be one of the elect is a very unpleasant message to hear and only adds to the anxiety. On the contrary what one wants to hear is that Christ has atoned for everyones sins including ones own and that Christ is everyones Saviour including ones own. However you cant tell a person this. Youre like a pizza delivery man who only has pizzas for certain people and therefore you cant assure every hungry person you come across that you have a pizza for him and all he has to do is reach out his hand and take it. Your message of forgiveness is necessarily restricted only to those you believe Christ died for and therefore it isnt good news for everyone but only for some.
I guess this was missed, too.
You didn't answer my question. Was my assessment of your view correct, or am I missing something?
The reason why I quoted: If anyone hears my words and does not keep them, I do not judge him; for I did not come to judge the world but to save the world. (John 12:47 ESV) is to show that Christ when speaking with reference to the non-elect says He came to save the world which obviously includes them, so it follows that He also atoned for their sins too. It wouldnt make any sense for Him to be meaning that He didnt come to judge unbelievers (i.e. those who dont keep His words) but He only came to save the elect.
With respect to atheist Bob even though God through His hidden will elects not to save him it doesnt mean that Christs atonement isnt good news for him as well. God has two wills His revealed will and His hidden will and its necessary to distinguish which will were talking about. According to His revealed will God loves the world and through Christ desires to save everyone in the world, so the message of the Gospel is good news for everyone including Bob because Christ has atoned for his sins as well as everyone else's. However when we are referring to Gods hidden will through which He decrees who shall be able to benefit from Christs atonement through granting them the Holy Spirit and the ability to believe and receive forgiveness, it isnt good news if one hasnt been chosen as one of His elect I agree.
However to come back to the Gospel which is what were discussing since Christ has atoned for everyones sins and its necessary to believe that ones sins are forgiven in order to be saved, its naturally excepted that Christ has atoned for the sin of refusing to accept that through Christ our sins are forgiven. Some on your side keep saying that Christ hasnt atoned for everyones sins if He doesnt atone for the sin of persistent unbelief which just seems ridiculous to me. How can Christ atone for the sin of refusing to accept that ones sins are atoned for? One is compounding ones sinfulness by refusing to accept that ones sins are forgiven through Christs death and therefore those who are damned are damned because they are in effect charging God with being a liar for saying their sins are forgiven. So theyre damned because they reject Christ and His forgiveness and make God out to be a liar and a fraud who has promulgated a false gospel.
You are still left with a problem. If you are presenting the gospel to a non-elect person, you are lying to them by saying that all of their sins are forgiven.
All their sins are atoned for except the sin of refusing to accept this. Thats implicit in the message of forgiveness since its obviously necessary to take God at His word and not regard Him as a liar in order to be saved.
If Bob is non-elect, aren't you being disingenuous when you tell him that all if his sins are forgiven?
So God's wrath is on someone (Bob, the non-elect) who you've just told that their sins are forgiven. And it's on them because of a sin that isn't atoned for.No, because one is excepting his refusal to accept this. One cant be saved if one refuses to believe one is forgiven ones sins and persists in doing so because it means one is in a continual state of rejecting God. So if one says to a person that all their sins are atoned for one isnt including the sin of their refusal to accept this, as this is tantamount to regarding God as a liar, and no one will escape Gods wrath who regards God in this way. The Gospel is that everyones sins are atoned for except for the sin of continual unbelief because the Gospel requires that one accepts it through faith in order to be justified and regarded as righteous before God.
You are assuming your conclusion. You basically have circular reasoning. You are saying that the gospel says everyone's sins are atoned for because having sins atoned for is the gospel.The Gospel message isnt just that if you believe in Christ youll be saved, because this begs the further question as to why belief in Christ saves. And the answer to that is because Christ has atoned for everyones sins.
Right. And why would we if the bible doesn't teach this? The bible teaches that the atonement, in the OT and NT, is for God's chosen people. That's the real argument. This back and forth we have right now is just showing the logical failure of your argument.That is the Gospel that everyones sins are atoned for through Christ, but those who believe in a limited atonement cant tell people this because they dont believe His atonement applies to everyone.
The full gospel is that God saves sinners. The only way to make your system work is to come up with a sin of continual disbelief that isn't atoned for. There's no support for your view in scripture.Therefore they have to say simply that if a person believes in Christ he will be saved and leave it at that, but thats only half the Gospel. Its not the full Gospel. The full Gospel is that Christ has died for everyone and through believing this and trusting in Christ one will be saved.
The full gospel is that God saves sinners. The only way to make your system work is to come up with a sin of continual disbelief that isn't atoned for. There's no support for your view in scripture.
This shows that Believers are saved: [16] “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.John 3:16-18 teaches this:
[16] “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. [18] Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God".(ESV)
This teaches unlimited atonement. Those who don’t believe in Christ can’t be condemned for not believing in Him if in fact Christ didn’t die for them. If Christ didn’t atone for the sins of unbelievers then there would be no requirement for them to believe in Him because He wouldn’t have been sent to them as their Saviour. So "world" means everyone in the world and not just the elect, and the reason why people are damned as you can see is because they don't believe that Christ is their Saviour.
This shows that Believers are saved: [16] For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.
This part tells us that we are already condemned, that this is not the purpose of Christ's coming, and that believers may be saved. The opportunity is available to all men if they so desire. We know that without God's express help they won't desire Him and they won't be saved, but if man just wills to believe he can: [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
This part confirms that man is already condemned and that only belief in Christ can save him: [18] Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God".(ESV)
None of this passage says, or even hints at universal atonement. It's about our pre-existing condemnation and Christ's salvation through our faith. You are making the same error every other synergist makes in insisting that !"world" means 100% of humanity, all the time. It doesn't.
A favourite parallel of mine, which never gets addressed is: Steve jobs gave the iPhone to the world; does everyone have an iPhone? Can everyone have an iPhone? World doesn't always mean everybody.
And as I've said before, the good news of the Gospel is that "Christ died for believers". That's what John 3:16 says. It doesn't say "Christ died for everyone - now believe".
You said in a previous post that Christs atonement was sufficient for the whole world but efficient only for those who believe, and now youve just said that the opportunity to be saved is available to all men if they so desire, however this is the definition of unlimited atonement. Youre unwittingly supporting my position. What youve affirmed isnt limited atonement. Limited atonement says Christ has only atoned for the sins of the elect and that it is impossible for the non-elect to be saved because they dont have their sins forgiven through Christs atonement.
John 3:16-18 is talking about universal atonement for it says that unbelievers are condemned for not believing in Christ, and unbelievers cant be damned for not believing in Christ if indeed Christ didnt die for their sins. If Christ didnt die for their sins (i.e. if Christs death wasnt sufficient for their sins as well as the elects) then they wouldnt be liable to be condemned for not believing in Him. They would just perish because of their sins not because they didnt believe in Christ.
With regards to your Steve Jobs analogy youve said in effect that Steve Jobs provision of iPhones is sufficient for all but only those who want to own one can have one, but thats the definition of unlimited iPhone supply, not a limited supply. So your analogy supports unlimited atonement not limited atonement.
John 3:16-18 teaches this:
[16] For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. [18] Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God".(ESV)
This teaches unlimited atonement. Those who dont believe in Christ cant be condemned for not believing in Him if in fact Christ didnt die for them. If Christ didnt atone for the sins of unbelievers then there would be no requirement for them to believe in Him because He wouldnt have been sent to them as their Saviour. So "world" means everyone in the world and not just the elect, and the reason why people are damned as you can see is because they don't believe that Christ is their Saviour.
The error in your thinking is that you see everything concerning salvation as talking about the atoning sacrifice of Christ. That isn't so. Election, for instance, isn't atonement. Justification isn't atonement. Etc.
If the bible says "whoever believes will be saved", it doesn't mean that the atonement had to be available to all just in case a non-elect person believes.
I think if you had a better grasp on unconditional election, your errors in trying to find unlimited atonement around every corner would go away.
Only one corner, eg, Rom.5:10a, "unlimited atonement," "Being enemies," we were reconciled to God." This is the object act. The instant Christ died the whole, whole and whole of sinners was changed completely. It was now a world for whose sin atonement had been made and no longer a world with unatoned sins. Hey, I know this pains your eyes and sincerely apologize.
Christ's atonement and the reckoning are valid for the universe of men. Owe! Trying to cushion this for you. Even all the damned in hell were thus reconciled to God. more pain. Not as men who were never reconciled are they damned, but as men who spurned God's reconciliation through Christ. You wouldn't be doing that would you? :o No longer will pain you, giving you a 'smoke break' for awhile so you can 'get it together' my friend, ie, head's up - will pop in later of course. Just your ol' old friend Jackster that really has no teeth
Only one corner, eg, Rom.5:10a, "unlimited atonement," "Being enemies," we were reconciled to God." This is the object act. The instant Christ died the whole, whole and whole of sinners was changed completely. It was now a world for whose sin atonement had been made and no longer a world with unatoned sins. Hey, I know this pains your eyes and sincerely apologize.
Christ's atonement and the reckoning are valid for the universe of men. Owe! Trying to cushion this for you. Even all the damned in hell were thus reconciled to God. more pain. Not as men who were never reconciled are they damned, but as men who spurned God's reconciliation through Christ. You wouldn't be doing that would you? :o No longer will pain you, giving you a 'smoke break' for awhile so you can 'get it together' my friend, ie, head's up - will pop in later of course. Just your ol' old friend Jackster that really has no teeth
To think that my Savior died for men who were or are in hell, seems a supposition too horrible for me to entertain. To imagine for a moment that He was the Substitute for all the sons of men, and that God, having first punished the Substitute, afterwards punished the sinners themselves, seems to conflict with all my ideas of divine justice. That Christ should offer an atonement and satisfaction for the sins of all men, and that afterwards some of those very men should be punished for the sins for which Christ had already atoned, appears to me to be the most monstrous iniquity that could ever have been imputed to Saturn, to Janus, to the goddess of the Thugs, or to the most diabolical heathen deities. God forbid that we should ever think thus of Jehovah, the just and wise and good!