Is rejecting Christ a sin?

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shturt678

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That Christ would suffer and die for the sins of someone who God the Father would later throw into hell is unthinkable to me. Allow me to quote the beloved Spurgeon:

Kind of called agape in Jn.3:16 for starters to summarize Mr. Luther and Mr. Chemnitz. I'm just even less than IICor.4:7 due to some minor cracks of sin. :thumbsup: Thank you also for caring. :cool:
 
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Hammster

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So every person who ever lived, less Jesus, were not sinners, ie, interesting? :o

For if, while we were enemies, we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, then how much more, having been reconciled, will we be saved by His life! (Romans 5:10 HCSB)

You are not taking the chapter and book in context. Paul isn't writing a general letter to humanity. He's writing a letter to the church. So the "we" takes on a more limited meaning.
 
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Skala

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Kind of called agape in Jn.3:16 for starters to summarize Mr. Luther and Mr. Chemnitz. I'm just even less than IICor.4:7 due to some minor cracks of sin. :thumbsup: Thank you also for caring. :cool:

John 3:16 says nothing one way or the other about the scope of the atonement. (ie, how many people Christ died for)

Methinks you're committing eisegesis (seeing something in the text that isn't there)
 
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shturt678

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John 3:16 says nothing one way or the other about the scope of the atonement. (ie, how many people Christ died for)

Methinks you're committing eisegesis (seeing something in the text that isn't there)

Jn.3:16, "For thus did God agape the world, that he gave his Son...." Excellent response my friends. :thumbsup: The ol' hyperbaton with basic Koine 101 egapesen is placed ahead of the subject and is thus made emphatic, not: God agaped the world; but: God agaped the world. :amen: Winging a don't have my works with me, except my Latin, so open for IITim.3:16 of course. What is missed by most after about 1930 is agape denotes the highest type and form of "love" loosely speaking using English. Here lies full understanding with true comprehension, coupled with a corresponding blessed higher divine purpose. :o Combine this eisegesis with "world" meaning not omnes ex toto mundo electos; where "all men" in ITim.2:4, omnis generis homines, and again, Nullum mundi vel popumum, vel ordinem a salute excludi, quia omnibus sine exceptions (sorry in the Koine so much need to bring the old Latin aboard (ie, to all nations and order and in this sense only "to all without exception"). :idea: God cannot embrace a cesspool of sinners but he can understand them for a higher purpose to bring in those that sign in the dotted line. :confused: Appreciate the complement of eisegesis as most view the older German works from Luther to about 1918, and some very good non-Lutheran, as insane to fallacious. ;) So when one views the former as fallacious to an eisegesis, this is a goo-gal plex complement, ie, doing the math. :D Have two more to reply to with more eisegesis. ;) Just ol' old Jackster. :wave:
 
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Edward65

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The error in your thinking is that you see everything concerning salvation as talking about the atoning sacrifice of Christ. That isn't so. Election, for instance, isn't atonement. Justification isn't atonement. Etc.

If the bible says "whoever believes will be saved", it doesn't mean that the atonement had to be available to all just in case a non-elect person believes.

I think if you had a better grasp on unconditional election, your errors in trying to find unlimited atonement around every corner would go away.

I’ve made it abundantly clear that Christ's atonement is universal but that not all people are justified through faith because God only elects some people to be saved and not all, so your analysis doesn’t accord with the facts. You’re describing what seems to me is your position, because if I’m not mistaken you hold that everyone whom Christ atones for is elected and justified, so it appears to me that you are failing to adequately distinguish between atonement, election and justification.

I'm happy to be in the company of Luther and others who believed in both unlimited atonement and unconditional election because that's what the Bible teaches.
 
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shturt678

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I’ve made it abundantly clear that Christ's atonement is universal but that not all people are justified through faith because God only elects some people to be saved and not all, so your analysis doesn’t accord with the facts. You’re describing what seems to me is your position, because if I’m not mistaken you hold that everyone whom Christ atones for is elected and justified, so it appears to me that you are failing to adequately distinguish between atonement, election and justification.

I'm happy to be in the company of Luther and others who believed in both unlimited atonement and unconditional election because that's what the Bible teaches.

....did get a few erratic heartbeats with your post and will be o.k. :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: Agape that Luther and Chemnitz :thumbsup:
 
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shturt678

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For if, while we were enemies, we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, then how much more, having been reconciled, will we be saved by His life! (Romans 5:10 HCSB)

You are not taking the chapter and book in context. Paul isn't writing a general letter to humanity. He's writing a letter to the church. So the "we" takes on a more limited meaning.

And to my friend Crimson

Lutherans are required to not only imbibe Romans; but Galatians, and also to inculcate. Let's, together as friends, eyeball Rom.15:16 together. The entire public service here referred to is not intended for the Romans as such, but for them as they are linked in with Paul's plans for a much larger public. For brevity, I'll let you fill in the blanks. :cool: Gentiles not that limited. :idea:
 
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I’ve made it abundantly clear that Christ's atonement is universal but that not all people are justified through faith because God only elects some people to be saved and not all, so your analysis doesn’t accord with the facts. You’re describing what seems to me is your position, because if I’m not mistaken you hold that everyone whom Christ atones for is elected and justified, so it appears to me that you are failing to adequately distinguish between atonement, election and justification.

I'm happy to be in the company of Luther and others who believed in both unlimited atonement and unconditional election because that's what the Bible teaches.

Everyone who is elect is atoned for. Christ died for the sheep.

“I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep. (John 10:11 HCSB)

I even did a post about atonement, quoting Hebrews. And I have a thread on Leviticus 16. So I've actually dealt with passages that actually deal with atonement. You deal with passages that don't deal with atonement, and then read atonement into them. So no, I haven't failed to adequately distinguish between election, atonement, and justification.
 
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Hammster

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And to my friend Crimson

Lutherans are required to not only imbibe Romans; but Galatians, and also to inculcate. Let's, together as friends, eyeball Rom.15:16 together. The entire public service here referred to is not intended for the Romans as such, but for them as they are linked in with Paul's plans for a much larger public. For brevity, I'll let you fill in the blanks. :cool: Gentiles not that limited. :idea:

I have no idea what your point is, or how it relates to my post.
 
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shturt678

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Everyone who is elect is atoned for. Christ died for the sheep.

“I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep. (John 10:11 HCSB)

I even did a post about atonement, quoting Hebrews. And I have a thread on Leviticus 16. So I've actually dealt with passages that actually deal with atonement. You deal with passages that don't deal with atonement, and then read atonement into them. So no, I haven't failed to adequately distinguish between election, atonement, and justification.

Jn.10:11, when saying that he lays down his life "for the sheep," the sacrifice of Jesus, which is for the world and all men, is viewed contextually, grammatically with reference to its actual final result, appears in the saved, ie, remember the spurious agape? at Jn.3:16 :blush:
 
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Skala

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Jn.10:11, when saying that he lays down his life "for the sheep," the sacrifice of Jesus, which is for the world and all men, is viewed contextually, grammatically with reference to its actual final result, appears in the saved, ie, remember the spurious agape? at Jn.3:16 :blush:

He (Jesus) said in the same chapter to some people "You are not my sheep"

Did Christ lay down his life for them? Keep his words in mind: I lay down my life for my sheep
 
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Hammster

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Jn.10:11, when saying that he lays down his life "for the sheep," the sacrifice of Jesus, which is for the world and all men, is viewed contextually, grammatically with reference to its actual final result, appears in the saved, ie, remember the spurious agape? at Jn.3:16 :blush:

Keep in mind that John 3:16 doesn't talk about atonement.
 
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shturt678

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For if, while we were enemies, we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, then how much more, having been reconciled, will we be saved by His life! (Romans 5:10 HCSB)

You are not taking the chapter and book in context. Paul isn't writing a general letter to humanity. He's writing a letter to the church. So the "we" takes on a more limited meaning.

Just to refresh you memory :o You stated: "Paul isn't writing a general letter to humanity." and so on hence Rom.5:10 need to be explained by Rom.15:16 also in light of IIPet.1:20, 21, correct? :confused: Ie, "general public." :D Only I don't have teeth and wait till you catch my dementia and sometimers, ie, gets worse. ;)
 
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shturt678

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Keep in mind that John 3:16 doesn't talk about atonement.

Lets' eyeball those ol' old high-German notes, oh here we go translated: :wave: Atonement: Rom.5:10a & Jn.3:16, this very agape that changed our status, this agape that impelled precious Christ, my Boss, to die for us hostile enemies of God, ie, - my eisegesis addition - we could not make the status change ourselves, God had to do it, ie, sacrificial death. :confused: Older Lutheran works + my eisegesis. :blush:
 
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Hammster

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Just to refresh you memory :o You stated: "Paul isn't writing a general letter to humanity." and so on hence Rom.5:10 need to be explained by Rom.15:16 also in light of IIPet.1:20, 21, correct? :confused: Ie, "general public." :D Only I don't have teeth and wait till you catch my dementia and sometimers, ie, gets worse. ;)

Why am I supposed to explain Romans 5:10 in light of the other verses?
 
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Brother Chris

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He (Jesus) said in the same chapter to some people "You are not my sheep"

Did Christ lay down his life for them? Keep his words in mind: I lay down my life for my sheep

I remember watching the Gospel of John movie and when Jesus told some of the people around Him that the reason why they don't believe in Him and reject Him is because they are not His sheep. Then He describes that His sheep (past, present and future) will hear His voice and they will follow Him. Jesus called all believers (past, present and future) His sheep. Those who are not His sheep, will never be saved.
 
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shturt678

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Why am I supposed to explain Romans 5:10 in light of the other verses?

Prophecy does supply its own interpretation, ie, Scriptura ex Scriptura explicanda est. :confused: We need, together, have the Holy Spirit interpret Scriptures or the result will be 'not good.' :o Prophecy governs the interpretation. :amen: In Hawaii one would say in the Hawaiian church: "no da kine private interpra kine stuff." Even having the pure Word, without my Boss, God-man Jesus, the Father and the Holy Spirit, interpretations are spurious. :thumbsup:
 
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