How could you tell?

[Non sequitur]

I didn't respond to your earlier reply to my previous post because it looked as if you'd missed my point entirely. So again, what motivation would an evil trickster have for making us all do good things to and for each other? I appreciate that there may be fictional characters who have misled groups of people, but I'n not talking about them because no deception in filmland would match the deception you describe.

You've asked us to imagine a hypothetical situation, so you do like wise and give me a reason for God lying about everything to everyone all of the time.

The content of The Greatest Story Ever Told seems to be one people have no problem accepting. I don't think it's fair to accept one fantastical story, but not another...

Are you asking me to list all possible reasons for deception?

a) How would this determine whether or not you believed it?
b) Would you, suggestively, change your mind if there was a good-enough-for-you one?

Feel free to answer a) or b), but the original question is irrelevant to "give me a reason for God lying?"

My hypothetical question is (how) could you know? Not prove it is or isn't, why or why not, but (how) could you know?

 

[daniel777]

But if he was a trickster or lying, he could write this bible to say whatever he wants; you can't hang your foundation on that, when books, people, information and experiences can be manipulated.

If he controlled what you knew to begin with, you can't say whether it is truthful or not, therefore you can't say it is the truth.

How do you get around this problem, without circular reasoning/logic?

I can't see a way to get around it, but neither can I see a way to certainly know anything at all given that level of scrutiny. If I choose to operate under the assumption that everything I know could possibly be controlled, how can I "hang my foundation" on any belief in reason, logic, my own mind, or even my capacity to know things?

It's an interesting idea to entertain, but seriously applying such an assumption makes "knowing" meaningless.

Perhaps you mean something different though. What exactly do you mean when you ask "how do you know"? . . . Or do you mean nothing at all?

 

[Non sequitur]

I can't see a way to get around it, but neither can I see a way to certainly know anything at all given that level of scrutiny. If I choose to operate under the assumption that everything I know could possibly be controlled, how can I "hang my foundation" on any belief in reason, logic, my own mind, or even my capacity to know things?

It's an interesting idea to entertain, but seriously applying such an assumption makes "knowing" meaningless.

Perhaps you mean something different though. What exactly do you mean when you ask "how do you know"? . . . Or do you mean nothing at all?

I meant it as is.

The problem is, this is a different type of issue.

If I said I had a billion dollars, there are many ways to vet that. If you want to unnecessarily say, "How can you know anything?" it defeats the purpose of using the tools we have to discern what is true.

If you couldn't even tell if the source is legit, why would you unequivocally believe it's claims?

 

[daniel777]

I meant it as is.

The problem is, this is a different type of issue.

If I said I had a billion dollars, there are many ways to vet that. If you want to unnecessarily say, "How can you know anything?" it defeats the purpose of using the tools we have to discern what is true.

If you couldn't even tell if the source is legit, why would you unequivocally believe it's claims?

The problem is, I don't understand the question because I don't understand what you mean by "knowing". If we start out assuming that x could be a lie, how do we show that it isn't? x could be my mind, logic, reason, myself, God or a sack of potatoes on the counter.

You're the one asking how I can know that I know, or know that I am not being deceived.

I need to understand what you mean by "knowing" before I can answer that. What counts as knowledge in your opinion, and how do we get there; what are you asking me?

 

[HitchSlap]

The problem is, I don't understand the question because I don't understand what you mean by "knowing". If we start out assuming that x could be a lie, how do we show that it isn't? x could be my mind, logic, reason, myself, God or a sack of potatoes on the counter.

You're the one asking how I can know that I know, or know that I am not being deceived.

I need to understand what you mean by "knowing" before I can answer that. What counts as knowledge in your opinion, and how do we get there; what are you asking me?

The gist of the question is; how would a Christian determine if their god were deceiving them?

 

[daniel777]

The gist of the question is; how would a Christian determine if their god were deceiving them?

Thanks. That's a slightly different question, and it's easier to answer.

I think it's the same way we can tell if anyone, or anything is deceiving us. Did they do what they said/meant they wouldn't do? Did they break promises? If yes, that means you're being deceived.

 

[Non sequitur]

The problem is, I don't understand the question because I don't understand what you mean by "knowing". If we start out assuming that x could be a lie, how do we show that it isn't? x could be my mind, logic, reason, myself, God or a sack of potatoes on the counter.

You're the one asking how I can know that I know, or know that I am not being deceived.

I need to understand what you mean by "knowing" before I can answer that. What counts as knowledge in your opinion, and how do we get there; what are you asking me?

Any definition you want to use.

How could you know if this god was being truthful. Is there a way to tell?

But you already said you couldn't.

Which follows, why the Christian God? All other religions are equally right or wrong, with no way to discern the the truth.

 

[daniel777]

Any definition you want to use.

no; I would like to know what you're asking.

But you already said you couldn't.

yes; with about the same reasonableness as not assuming to know anything. . . . which still seems to me to be what you're going for.

 

[Non sequitur]

no; I would like to know what you're asking.


yes; with about the same reasonableness as not assuming to know anything. . . . which still seems to me to be what you're going for.

So, are saying your ability to know if I have a billion dollars and if the Christian God was lying are the same?

Because that's what you are implying.

 

[daniel777]

So, are saying your ability to know if I have a billion dollars and if the Christian God was lying are the same?

Because that's what you are implying.

If you don't tell me what you mean, I can't answer your question. You've refused to clarify which makes me think all you want to do is play games.

 

[Non sequitur]

If you don't tell me what you mean, I can't answer your question. You've refused to clarify which makes me think all you want to do is play games.

You answered my question of how could you know.

Can you clarify what you are specifically asking me?

 

[poolerboy0077]

Because I know Him..... and because He is God....

It is simple. Nothing too hard about it.

All too simple.

 

[Non sequitur]

If you don't tell me what you mean, I can't answer your question. You've refused to clarify which makes me think all you want to do is play games.

Can you clarify what it is you are asking?

I am not playing any games and appreciate your honest responses.

 

[jayem]

So again, what motivation would an evil trickster have for making us all do good things to and for each other?

That's all part of the deception. If everyone always acted with hostility and violence, then we wouldn't expect anything else. A deceitful god would want to allow some goodness and benevolence to occur so that we would know the difference. In fact, when we're miserable, we feel even worse when we recall good experiences in the past. An evil god would enjoy that.

This can also explain why an evil god would command us to do good works. Because he knows we can never do it perfectly. He created us with sinful and disobedient tendencies. (Which is exactly what orthodox Christianity teaches.) Another way to make us suffer is to require we do something of which we are incapable. And then when we're punished for failing, we blame ourselves for it.

You've asked us to imagine a hypothetical situation, so you do like wise and give me a reason for God lying about everything to everyone all of the time.

If a god is inherently evil, then deception would be part of its nature. No other reason is needed.

 

[super animator]

I wonder of people being in here is aware of a concept known as axioms?

 

[Non sequitur]

That's all part of the deception. If everyone always acted with hostility and violence, then we wouldn't expect anything else. A deceitful god would want to allow some goodness and benevolence to occur so that we would know the difference. In fact, when we're miserable, we feel even worse when we recall good experiences in the past. An evil god would enjoy that.

This can also explain why an evil god would command us to do good works. Because he knows we can never do it perfectly. He created us with sinful and disobedient tendencies. (Which is exactly what orthodox Christianity teaches.) Another way to make us suffer is to require we do something of which we are incapable. And then when we're punished for failing, we blame ourselves for it.



If a god is inherently evil, then deception would be part of its nature. No other reason is needed.

I really am curious as to how this doesn't seem like a problem.

I would think this is the most pressing issue, for any believer.

 

[super animator]

I really am curious as to how this doesn't seem like a problem.

I would think this is the most pressing issue, for any believer.

I could easily rephrased that question and ask, how do you know that you sensors are not lying to you?

 

[crimsonleaf]

That's all part of the deception. If everyone always acted with hostility and violence, then we wouldn't expect anything else. A deceitful god would want to allow some goodness and benevolence to occur so that we would know the difference. In fact, when we're miserable, we feel even worse when we recall good experiences in the past. An evil god would enjoy that.

Except that psychologists treat depression successfully by training their patients to memorise up to ten happy memories to recall when they're at their lowest, which has the effect of killing the depression.

 

[Non sequitur]

I could easily rephrased that question and ask, how do you know that you sensors are not lying to you?

You could.

But my question can't be answered by putting the burden on me.

Still a valid question.

 

[Non sequitur]

Except that psychologists treat depression successfully by training their patients to memorise up to ten happy memories to recall when they're at their lowest, which has the effect of killing the depression.

Great. Back on track.

How could you know/discern in your god was lying?