Icons and the last few years on CF

[Gxg (G²)]

I think discussion on certain Torah points should be allowed such as the finer points, but no accusations that they aren't doing it right.


I truly think this would be best, that way those seeking can look and see what others have asked and we don't spend time answering the same questions over and over. It will also serve to keep those who just come in here to be antagonistic under the cover of 'fellowship and asking questions' to not be allowed to cause disruption.

I think that our Regular Jewish poster are already active enough, but they too should also be under the ruling of not posting against keeping Torah by the Gentiles or asking questions that are presumptive of making the members feel they aren't doing it 'right'.

I really believe that our main forum needs to be for main discussion amongst the membership. Having those others really isn't helping any. It seems from the times I've been in them they are being used more to support separation than anything.

This is much better than the Torah keepers forum. I would suggest that in the rules for that forum that guests would be allowed to open up a thread where they can debates Torah observance but must be respectful. For the members it could be on levels of observance and the one law two law.

Possible names, not catchy, but descriptive;

Torah Deliberation - A forum for both members and non-members to intelligently discuss matters concerning the Laws of G-d

Torah Awareness - A place where gentle debate can be held between members of the MJ forum and other members of CF; to bring about understanding of G-d Holy Laws.

How's that?

Good suggestions - and on the issue, with the other two forums you suggested, it'd solve the issue of debate between others on the subject of Torah and variances thereof which can require real dialogue when others differ.

I'd think a good name for things would be Torah Application for the forum dealing with discussing matters of the Law

 

[Lulav]

So you are saying "stop the chaos!" You'd really deny us all our endless arguments? That's just plain mean, and misses Tishri's point entirely! She is trying to corral all the chaos in one place!!!

WTG Tish!

Dan C

Yes! Anyone remember her?

 

[dnc101]

A forum of their own wont work we did that and it creates problems with the other groups who want their own forum too


Who do you propose we get to kindly wear those big boots

That's just low- I like it, but it's low ...

I could loan you a pair of steel-toed runners if it'd help.

Dan C

Old fa-errr, guys story alert!!!

Years ago when steel toed runners first came out, I got a pair for work. After work one evening I was doing moderate contact sparing in the back yard with my brother. After about 10 mins he backed up and said "What th' (expletive) do you have in those shoes!?" It hadn't even occurred to me I wasn't wearing regular runners! (Honestly ... )

Point is, when applied liberally, they work!

 

[Torah Lishmah]

Yeah but it looks like we want all the regulars to be members. That's what I'm hearing any way

I'm not sure what you mean by that? I'm going to take a guess though.

Generally speaking, Jews aren't threatened by those of other religions expressing their faith. So, anyone who wants to post would be allowed.

I think the only restraint will be telling the MJs theirs is not an acceptable Judiasm...

Naturally.

but that and of course protelitizing would be the main things staff worry about anyway

Proselytizing isn't Judaism's gig anyway. It is a religion of attraction, not promotion.

 

[Torah Lishmah]

A forum of their own wont work we did that and it creates problems with the other groups who want their own forum too

It doesn't need it's own forum, a sub-forum to the main MJ forum is all that is needed. Like up where the Bridge Builders sub-forum is located. Do-able?

 

[Gxg (G²)]

There may come a time when the various MJ groups no longer fellowship with each other, and this will cause the need for separate MJ denominational forums anyway.

Technically, in some ways, that has already happened when seeing the ways that other groups do not wish to fellowship with the ones disagreeing with them due to the bad feelings between them on their differences - although this is not universal thankfully.

But if it were to go that route on the online world in a Messianic sense (should others try the format presented thus far - and it still doesn't work) and things seemed to truly be within the realm of having two entirely different denominations within the Messianic world just as there are denominations within the Protestant world, to make a separate forum for types of Messianics would really not be anymore difficult than having One Bread, One Body - Catholic forum (where others can discuss various Catholic beliefs and issues - with their own sub-forums on the matter). and Scripture,Tradition,Reason-Anglican & Old Catholic forum (for the Anglo-Catholics ).

But if others work with the format being designed here of using the sub-forums present and it works out, hopefully it'd not come to that.

 

[Gxg (G²)]

IMO and experience there is no where near a collective "conscience" (for lack of a better word) on what Noachidism is nor what Noachides should/shouldn't do. There are schizoid components from within and without the structure.
.

True...

 

[Messianic Jewboy]

It means quit the disruption already

Your obviously some what Torah observant.... respect that in others and stay out of threads where you are in disagreement with

Quit telling then they are wrong for wanting to live with more Torah than you

Then perhaps like there is a poll 'What is Messianic' would be better. Messianic Believers or something to that effect. Or as ContraMundum said this forum wasn't like it is when it started and should keep on that same path?

 

[ananda]

Whatever the case may be, the bottom line is this:

Messianic Judaism is defined in different ways by different organizations and different individuals.

For all practical purposes, on this forum, the final word as to "what is MJ" belongs to the moderators of this board - not MJAA, not UMJC, not CPM, not Wikipedia, not me. It's great that the moderators are willing to hear our perspectives on what is and what is not MJ, but the final decision lies with those in power. It's up to the visitors (us) to decide if we like their decision or not by voting with or without our participation.

 

[dnc101]

Then perhaps like there is a poll 'What is Messianic' would be better. Messianic Believers or something to that effect. Or as ContraMundum said this forum wasn't like it is when it started and should keep on that same path?

That thread is already being done. New guy, I know, but I haven't seen any bashing or lack of acceptance for those not following the entire Torah. For different reasons, which I've posted here, I do not keep the entire Torah and not once have I been criticized for it. Advice, which I appreciated, yes; but I never was made to feel like I didn't belong.

What I do see and agree with is resistance to a lot of people (many or even most of whom are not even Messianic) advocating for institutionalizing mainstream dispensationalist doctrine here and being able to tell us continually we are wrong for moving toward Torah observance. To that end, all the constant agitating for change gets tired. If recent events are any indication, when you ever get your change your side will be far less tolerant of our views than we are of yours!

There are plenty of places on CF that line up more with your views, and historically (recent history, at least) you would still be welcome here in fellowship on those points where we do agree. But if you take away the Torah observance here, you might as well close the forum. It'd just be mainC rehashed. Who needs that? (I know, I had to ask ... )

Really, since you do hold some Messianic views, I'd suggest it is to your advantage to keep the forum close to what it is. Otherwise you well may find yourself being hammered down here for holding those beliefs!

Dan C

 

[dnc101]

... It's great that the moderators are willing to hear our perspectives on what is and what is not MJ, ...

I don't know; the verdict is still out on that one!

Dan C

 

[Messianic Jewboy]

Whatever the case may be, the bottom line is this:

Messianic Judaism is defined in different ways by different organizations and different individuals.

For all practical purposes, on this forum, the final word as to "what is MJ" belongs to the moderators of this board - not MJAA, not UMJC, not CPM, not Wikipedia, not me. It's great that the moderators are willing to hear our perspectives on what is and what is not MJ, but the final decision lies with those in power. It's up to the visitors (us) to decide if we like their decision or not by voting with or without our participation.

Sorry to say but Messianic Judaism is defined. I've posted some responses from a UMJC Rabbi. Now if this forum doesn't want to be associated with Messianic Judaism that's OK! There are organizations like the CTMOC that teach Torah is for all equal obligation. They are not associated with Messianic Judaism. If you read their SoF etc they talk about Messianic community where as Messianic Judaism talks about the Jewish Messianic community because it's a Jewish organization to the Jews primarily and they are pretty much in line with the Jewish community about Torah obligation s.

Whether Messianic Judaism is right or wrong and whether the likes of CTMOC are right or wrong is not the question.

It's what Messianic Judaism is since this forum is called Messianic Judaism. Even FFOZ has changed to be more in line with Messianic Judaism. Once they were sort of in line with the likes of CTMOC.

Just accept the facts.

 

[anisavta]

Whatever the case may be, the bottom line is this:

Messianic Judaism is defined in different ways by different organizations and different individuals.

For all practical purposes, on this forum, the final word as to "what is MJ" belongs to the moderators of this board - not MJAA, not UMJC, not CPM, not Wikipedia, not me. It's great that the moderators are willing to hear our perspectives on what is and what is not MJ, but the final decision lies with those in power. It's up to the visitors (us) to decide if we like their decision or not by voting with or without our participation.

 

[Tishri1]

Surely not the first for such a request. But certainly the ONLY FORUM, denying those within the faith group, to be in the faith group. Not all Messianic Judaism is allowed to be Messianic here.

I have no idea what your talking about... you are wrong and disruptive

 

[Tishri1]

This is only my 2nd WW3! Under the first one I seem to recall that such changes could not be made because of complications with the software package that is being used.

Its simple if the report is from a non member it get closed is all, unless we see extreme flaming going on

There were requests from other faith groups for this restriction too

 

[Tishri1]

Ok there is a difference between Torah observant folks and what Messianic Judaism(UMJC and MJAA) would say about Torah observant folks. What I mean is Messianic Judaiam is in line with Judaism in regards to Torah observant folks. What I'm saying is Messianic Judaism doesn't promote Torah observance for non Jews. I'm not pushing anything here I'm just providing a FACT. Therefore a forum called Messianic Judaism which promotes Torah for all is contrary to Messianic Judaism(which would be in line with Judaism).

I'm NOT saying there is anything wrong or right with Torah for all. What I'm saying is that isn't Messianic Judaism. Now we have up define what is meant Torah for all. Messianic Judaism has written papers about this. This means that Torah isn't applied the same manner to Jews and Gentiles. A UMJC rabbi in California responded when asked about a non Jew in a Messianic Jewish synagogue wearing tzizit as an example....

"We discourage it because it is a sign of the Jewish covenant (Num.15)."

And when asked about equal non Jewish obligation...

"We are obviously all equal before God through Yeshua but there clearly is different obligations...cf. brit milah, tzitzit, shabbat just to name three."

I don't want to mention the Rabbi's name publically but if anyone is involved in a UMJC California you would know the congregation.

Again I'm just showing facts what Messianic Judaism is in regards to non Jews. There are groups that are called Messianic Believers which would promote Torah equally for all.

Are you going to stop your campaign in here or do i need to ban you?
The choice is yours

The truth is this forum is not affiliated with organizations but is seeking members who act like adults and who love Torah and Tradition and Yeshua

Now so far I have seen nothing posted against Tradition or Yeshua

But I must put my foot down and insist this campaign that discriminates against certain MJs who love a connection to the Torah stop

Any one who feels that connection is respected here and there is no debate on that issue

Definitely no more campaigns

I will start banning today

 

[Tishri1]

Very good Lulav!

Any other thoughts from others?

I can't believe everyone is still going on about their agenda and has ignored what Tishri1 Simplified and asked for thoughts on.

This sounds perfect to me Tish, simple and easy to follow.

I think discussion on certain Torah points should be allowed such as the finer points, but no accusations that they aren't doing it right.


I truly think this would be best, that way those seeking can look and see what others have asked and we don't spend time answering the same questions over and over. It will also serve to keep those who just come in here to be antagonistic under the cover of 'fellowship and asking questions' to not be allowed to cause disruption.

I think that our Regular Jewish poster are already active enough, but they too should also be under the ruling of not posting against keeping Torah by the Gentiles or asking questions that are presumptive of making the members feel they aren't doing it 'right'.

I really believe that our main forum needs to be for main discussion amongst the membership. Having those others really isn't helping any. It seems from the times I've been in them they are being used more to support separation than anything.

This is much better than the Torah keepers forum. I would suggest that in the rules for that forum that guests would be allowed to open up a thread where they can debates Torah observance but must be respectful. For the members it could be on levels of observance and the one law two law.

Possible names, not catchy, but descriptive;

Torah Deliberation - A forum for both members and non-members to intelligently discuss matters concerning the Laws of G-d

Torah Awareness - A place where gentle debate can be held between members of the MJ forum and other members of CF; to bring about understanding of G-d Holy Laws.

How's that?

 

[Tishri1]

Good suggestions - and on the issue, with the other two forums you suggested, it'd solve the issue of debate between others on the subject of Torah and variances thereof which can require real dialogue when others differ.

I'd think a good name for things would be Torah Application for the forum dealing with discussing matters of the Law

I like it too
Torah Application

 

[Tishri1]

I'm not sure what you mean by that? I'm going to take a guess though.

Generally speaking, Jews aren't threatened by those of other religions expressing their faith. So, anyone who wants to post would be allowed.


Naturally.


Proselytizing isn't Judaism's gig anyway. It is a religion of attraction, not promotion.

So sounds good?

It wouldn't be every one just regulars who are here or shall i say have been here for a while
You guys know who you are, but for the uninformed we will have a sticky that tells them too

 

[Torah Lishmah]

So sounds good?

It wouldn't be every one just regulars who are here or shall i say have been here for a while
You guys know who you are, but for the uninformed we will have a sticky that tells them too

Sounds great. I'm confident whatever you decide will be satisfactory. Thank you!