Icons and the last few years on CF

[Tishri1]

Well ok, maybe.

Suppose, just suppose, that some mean ol' Phillistines or Amalekites, Stalagmites or Stalactites(gasp) come wandering in and don't abide by the fore stated strictures. What then? Kiss 'em? Sing Kum-by-yeehaw? Sing 'Blessed Assurance'? Sit passively by whilst they run a rampage?

Cold day in Hell!!!!

What then?

We all know it will happen.

Good question At least staff would be able to moderate easier Looking at a positive post is much easier to discern

 

[Tishri1]

Help me remember where this is so it doesn't get buried in this thread ok Avodat

Almost none of the visitors actually see the sticky with the SoP - that is a real problem to us, because by the time we refer them to it, it is too late! But then some just ignore us and, in spite of reports, nothing is done about it

Make the sticky title to stand out in bold red and say something like: READ THIS BEFORE ENTERING THIS FORUM; we know it is the SoP but most others have no idea what the current title even means! That would be a start, and is the easiest, as you just need to change the text and colour!

Then remove the word 'Member' from the SoP - because most visitors take it as being a 'member of CF', not of these fora - so that it reads:

"In addition, if you do not agree with the established teachings of this faith group, (if you do not accept that Torah Observance is valid, for example) you may not debate issues or teach, but you are welcome to ask questions or post in fellowship. Active promotion or teaching of views contrary to the established MJ teachings of this group will be considered off topic and subject to staff action".

Re our brothers / sisters who are Jews, posting. I am happy for them to have full posting rights but it would have to be, for them, outside the SoP because they could not agree to believe in Yeshua and I would hate to force them to tell a lie by pretending they do. If we can overcome this with our regular Jewish posters by including something in the SoP, I would really welcome their input in every way. Mods would need to be aware of this because I guess visitors will report them much more quickly that we would

 

[Tishri1]

Their own forum had problems as all the other groups out there wanted one too

it was really hard back then

That's a problem. Sure. But dodari is correct; the larger problem is those who just don't care! Put it in big, bold day-glow orange letters on every page, and a.) you'll still have to tell most posters, and they'll probably settle down after you tell them about 6-8 more times; and b.) there are still going to be those who come for the specific purpose of teaching us the true faith or disrupting the forum. They won't care or heed anything short of an admin action.


Again, allowing another faith group unlimited posting privileges can be a recipe for disaster. You may attract some who even the regular Jewish members would not like.

Better to relax the restrictions where they can answer questions without fear of being censured. Then either give them their own forum, or convert one of our sub-forums so they have a place to post openly, free from those "Christians" who might want to harass them. Then if any anti-missionary types came on there, they could deal with it or report it for action, free from any stigma that might be attached if we get in the middle of the "discussions."

That actually would have other advantages, as both faith groups ask questions across the intra-fora lines while being subject to report if we (or our own "anti" bunch) get out of line.

Separate but equal! And again, as dodari suggested, arm both camps (with a report button and a real ornery type mod on the other end, just waiting to pounce!) "An armed society is a polite society," as dear old mum always said.

Dan C
edit: I have been a proponent of expanding posting privileges for Jewish posters. But giving both unlimited privileges on the same forum is a recipe for problems, as it may attract more extremists from both camps. And there will be the cases of hurt feelings getting out of control. And if you really want to see just how well mixing the two works, come over to my house for an evening of enlightenment, excitement- and possibly danger if you get in the crossfire!

edit-the-edit: and I agree with you about the elephant in the room being Yeshua. We can't expect them to "convert" just to post here! Another advantage to their having a forum of their own. Just a thought.

 

[Tishri1]

I have changed a part of my original post a bit from how it is in your quote - I used to work in forming international legal contracts so I have to continually revise and reduce the number of words to a minimum and remove any contestable parts! You know what I mean! The change I have made is how the Sticky is presented - the bits you commend (for which many thanks) are unaltered.

Nice to know that about you Avodat wanna take a look at some of our site wide pieces sometime?

 

[Tishri1]

How can a board dedicated to Messianic Judaism not also allow unbelieving Jews to have a voice? If there are those who would like to have a greater voice and to teach, (and think I know of at least one current poster here that might, and I would like to see it) then it should be made possible in one way or another, however it is that everyone decides the rules should be designed, or whether they need to be amended here in this board, or whatever. I really have no problem with debates either, even with "mainstream" thinkers who lean toward MJ so long as everyone observes the rules. Likewise even if the current rules and SOP need to be changed then change them but please make them clear regarding icons, signatures, members, who can post what and where, etc., etc., so that everyone knows where and when the Tishri1 hammer comes down.

Sounds good and does anyone want to suggest how we write that? I don't usually ask but everyone is doing so well in this thread that perhaps someone would like to take a stab at writing a few updates

Specifically an addition to allow Jewish posters who may not be Christian at all having certain posting privileges

And the other is writing up the specific instructions for identifying a member of this specific forum and how to identify that you are a member

It will be exciting to see what this group comes up with together

Remember I like short and sweet if at all possible

 

[Tishri1]

In my post #365 I wrote about the SoP. A part of what I wrote is:

"In addition, if you do not agree with the established teachings of this faith group, (if you do not accept that Torah Observance is valid, for example) you may not debate issues or teach, but you are welcome to ask questions or post in fellowship. Active promotion or teaching of views contrary to the established MJ teachings of this group will be considered off topic and subject to staff action".

Could we add to that: "Non-Messianic Jews wishing to have normal posting rights on these fora - to help us in our understanding of Judaism - must respect our MJ faith and not teach or debate against it. Abuse of posting rights will be subject to staff action, as is the case for MJ's."

Any agreement on those two (plus the bit about the sticky in post #365)?

There you go ...yes this looks nice

Thoughts?

 

[Tishri1]

Yes I saw your post on the sticky and also liked it. As for Non-Messianic Jews; howsoever it should be worked out, I think it should be worked out. The only thing I saw concerning other things mentioned was something about a debate board called "Torah Bashers" or something of that nature. I don't mind the idea of the board but would not call it by that name because some might find the name itself offensive, (myself included). If it was my choice I would vote for something more along the lines of "Torah Wars", "Torah Warriors", or something like that, (but of course you realize anyone who enters such an "arena" better know his or her Torah and how to handle the GT crowd right? We might should be careful what we wish for).

Good advise

 

[Tishri1]

I know i did ask right

What about calling folks who observe somethings, non observant ,because they don't observe what some people do , or as much as some do here. I know a few here have been called gracers who definitely observe lots of things in Torah

The biggest hindrance I see is those who assert, "I am Messianic and my theology says that the Torah is irrelevant to being Messianic." This has been stated by more than one person flying the scroll icon here. The idea has also been stated by proxy, through reference links to outsiders (e.g., Arnold Fruchtenbaum) who are not part of this forum.

Some posters just don't care about the rules, and only take our rules as a challenge to "straighten us out" by claiming our rules are unreasonable, or contrary to the majority of MJ.



I'd like it. But such a rule must be enforced. Contrary posters need to be immediately warned, and ejected after repeated warnings. If "Maxell's silver hammer" doesn't land on their head right away, they grow emboldened. It is like smacking a puppy on the nose right away after he chews your shoes--there needs to be immediate consequence, or he won't get the relationship between cause and effect.



If I may, this phrase I've highlighted might represent a misunderstanding of some sort. I don't perceive that we have ever had issues about level of observance, or which mitzvot constitute acceptable observance. That sort of difference actually provides just enough dynamic tension to make for good discussions. Rather, the arguments involve those whose theology informs them that the Torah, en toto, has been rendered nullified, void, and no longer binding on any follower of Yeshua. That fundamental theological position is what causes problems here... imho.

No TO person here has ever complained about anyone saying, "I am TO Messianic, but I don't see where eating cheeseburgers is disallowed."

That's fine, and we can discuss kosher laws and rabbinic additions till the cows come home.

Problems are introduced when people come here saying, "I am TO Messianic, but the Torah is no longer binding on us because Yeshua did XYZ."

At some point in the past year or so, Talmidim coined a phrase I considered quite brilliant, which summed up this situation perfectly: "Non-observance is not a level of observance."

In effect, it seems to me that we are trying to enforce the wrong rules... or enforce them on the wrong segment of the population. I may be incorrect, but these are my own observations.

And, after all...



You did ask for input!

 

[Tishri1]

This forum seeks to include as many Torah observant folks as possible irrespective of their brand or organizational affiliations

I think we have to look at this from the perspective of Messianic Judaism not what one thinks it should be. That would depend which Messianic Judaism we are talking about and which one is affiliated with. And we also have to consider it from being Jewish since it's a Judaism that includes Gentiles. It's not a Judaism that includes Jews as Jews are already included to begin with.

This correlates how leaderships define and distinguish, depending what Messianic Judaism.

You talk to MJAA and UMJC leaderships and they have different views than let's say CTMOC.

So what Messianic Judaism are we discussing?

Is the purpose of this forum to create a Messianic Judaism of it's own?

 

[Tishri1]

We Have bridge builders

Truthfully, on that note...

Perhaps it'd be wise (for the groups you mentioned) to have their own FAITH Group forum altogether - just as there's room for this one - instead of having it be a Sub-Group issue.


It'd seem to me to be a wise thing to bring up - a forum with SUB-Forums for discussion and mirroring the one others are fighting for - and with an SoP for Messianic Jews/Gentiles like ourselves and others. That'd allow those who want to have discussion on things we see fit to do so WITHOUT being bothered - and allowing folks to operate amongst like-midned Messianics when it comes to dealing with others who don't value God's Law like folks in GT - yet it'd also allow for there to not be confusion in getting harassment or heckled by groups of Messianic Gentile culture who don't like MJAA, UMJC, those Messiancis working with Noahides or others they feel are not as "Torah Observant" (even if that's not the case in reality).

And in that move, it'd be a matter of seeing who wishes to come to which faith group. One Messianic already made another group for others like-minded to join called Grace-Based Messianic Judaism (not opposite of Torah Observant - but clearly with those disagreeing with other Messianics here) - and it did occur if perhaps another forum for all of those involved would be good since it seems this one often seems to run into the same issues without really being solved.


If others from the old Messianic Judaism forum wanted to come to the new one made - and try to subvert that one to be like theirs (for control purposes), it'd be very OBVIOUS that they are truly concerned with violating boundaries when they can't stay where they need to.......and being separate would allow us to have our OWN evolution in where we could go.

New relationships, open discussion - and Jews (Non-Jewish believers as well ...even if they may be a bit aggressive as unbelievers can be) being welcomed alongside others who are for Diversity in Messianic Judaism - from the Bridge Builders (i.e. Messianic Jews for Bridge - Building in the Church and Jewish culture...or those working with Samaritans, you get the picture). The story of LOT and Abraham separating came to mind since they were both TOO great (and too VASTLY different ) to exist in the same territory without Lot's shepherds always fighting against Abraham's - and thus, as noted in Genesis 13 , Abraham separated from Lot and blessed Him.

Looking back, I think some things noted by others were prophetic:

​

So perhaps fighting to have another Faith Group for the Messianic Judaism separate from this forum - with its OWN Sub-forums and discussion places - would be a good thing.

 

[Tishri1]

Interesting perspective. Wrong, but interesting.

The group i was hanging with for several month was started by Jews and their by laws were formed by Jews for Gentiles in order to be acceptable for fellowship. I left as i couldn't stomach the horrible things said about Yeshua

They told me what i stated here

But maybe they were wrong

I prefer they were, to be honest

I didnt like how they acted toward Christians and Messianics

 

[Tishri1]

md, does Judaism in General find Noachides to be of either of these two categories?
1.Torah negative
2. Antisemitic

They were not ,the ones i knew were very torah positive

The problem was they were being groomed for conversion
And conversion was with out faith in Yeshua

Im glad to know your group was not like that

 

[Tishri1]

Now take this with a grain of salt as it obvious that not all Noahides are the same ok, but the group i visited ( led by Jewish leaders)insisted that Gentiles break Torah laws on purpose and keep only the Noahide laws but should they so desire to keep Jewish Laws then they should seek after conversion seriously

Question: Does Noahide Nations observe Jewish dietary laws? For example, do Noahides refrain from eating unclean animals? This is a clear prohibition in the Hebrew Scriptures (see. Leviticus 11:7). There are churches such as the Worldwide Church of God that observe this clear Scriptural prohibition, does Noahide Nations? Another Question I have is whether or not Noahide Nations encourages its members to eat milk and meat. This is a standard Jewish abstention; does Noahide Nations also abstain from eating milk and meat?

Answer: There are three mistakes in your question:

A commandment in the Hebrew Scriptures always applies universally.
The context of a verse is irrelevant to the meaning of the verse.
Christians understand the Hebrew Scriptures.


And this website goes on to explain... Noahide Nations - Do Noahides Eat Unclean Animals?

 

[Tishri1]

Good question!

Lets see

Only positive posts would be accepted
So i guess i would ignore that negative post and report it so that the thread and that negative post can be taken care of

Thoughts?

Ok, this may be covered beyond this post but I haven't gotten there yet.

One problem, concerning "debating."
Someone comes in asking about the kosher diet, whether it's necessary or not. One of us One Law folks (per the SoP) answers and then along comes 'Cow Patty' (per Ray Stevens) stating it is not necessary. If responder #1 counters (cos after all, it's a TO forum) - who is gonna get tagged as debating????

 

[Tishri1]

Why would we want to create a place for people to come and desecrate all that we stand for? Do you think they'll stay in their own little corner and not venture into ours at some point? Isn't GT for that type of hate already?
"Hi welcome to our house... guns, chains and jagged broken bottles available for your entertainment at the door..." ???

Fair enough

 

[Tishri1]

How about disallowing visitors reporting anything? Most don't have the first idea what is contrary to this particular forum's beliefs anyway, so why should they have reporting privileges here?

And, yes, Chava, Deana, Desert Rose, Yonah and a few others are not only welcome here, they are NEEDED and WANTED! They are as much a part of this mishpocha as most of the 'regular' MJ posters! We're lacking greatly without them! We feel their absence.

Sounds like a possibility

 

[Tishri1]

It does, thank you

So lemme see if i hear you correctly

A thread for visitors to ask questions(is that the only place they can post)and then the rest of the threads for fellowship and torah positive discussion by members only ( and invited Jewish members?)

That all sounds good Tish, but as others said the Main forum should be for the Main members, to discuss whatever but by our beliefs. Even something like "I went to the movies to see ___________ and I wanted popcorn but wasn't sure if the butter was Kosher". Now this may be considered a fellowship post because it isn't hard core theology being discussed but from our perspective it does touch on our beliefs. So then someone comes in that believes that you have 'liberty to eat whatever you want' makes some remake, or posts a cartoon or something that may seem to them to be appropriate but to us it is going against our beliefs.

We then are made to feel inferior, on the fringe of Christianity, or heathens for not realizing this shouldn't be an issue. (this is just an extreme case for example). but this does then lead to anti-Jewish thoughts and remarks and it's hurtful and we don't feel safe, but rather picked upon. Because remember the main Christian mentality that separates us is that the Torah is done away with and , and that's the politically correct way to say what's been said for centuries, that the law, the Sabbath and the Holy days are only for the Jews.

I think to keep our conversations more fruitful and peaceful we should go back to the time where we had a question thread for those seeking.

The main forum should be for all members to participate in, I don't think we should be relegated to a sub forum to talk about Torah when Torah is what rules our life, obeying G-d and doing what he wants. How can we make that just a sub-titled? It effects our way of thinking, doing and seeing life in everything we do.

If someone comes searching they can go to this thread and ask questions in the proper setting. This way the regular threads don't derail and degrade into accusation, separation, fruitlessness and basically chaos. I think it is because others are allowed to come into any thread and ask a question that makes us all be on guard, be on the defensive. We need a place where we can talk without feeling we have to be in this defensive mode, which ends up going against each other too.

Many times these questions are seen as accusatory, or baiting in some way, so the defense comes on. Then we end up with every person truely seeking to learn immediately told when they come in to read the rules, read the rules and that in itself is wearisome to have to read over and over again when all you want to do is talk about the subject at hand, to share what you know and hope to learn something from others. Instead it turns into debate about who can post, who can teach and the threads where we could really discuss really interesting topics get derailed into nothingness.

I think that is what another poster described as works of the enemy and it is. If he can get us off talking about obeying G-d then he has won and we have failed the test. HaShem continues to test us today. It doesn't matter what Torah we keep, if we keep going after our brother we have failed.

The two greatest are

#1 Loving G-d (obeying Him is the only way to show this love)

#2 Loving your neighbor (the only way to do this is to be helping them in keeping #1

That's all I gotta say, and hope it made sense, I didn't get back until almost 3 this morning so am a little tired and missed some of this.

Oh and I do want to add to Tishri, I know that you work harder than anyone to keep the peace, I knew that way, way back when I trained you to be an MJ mod when I was your supervisor and I've watched how you've grown and I too am proud of you and the way you never loose your temper and always want the best for us as well as the rest of the forum. This is too commendable for words, but I hope you can feel the love and it helps a little for all you do.

 

[Tishri1]

My sentiments exactly!

your both sooo sweet thank you

 

[Tishri1]

And, being as I am from the US, what views would you expect me to give?

Great thing about these forums- we both give our views and then if we both consider the others PoV, we all become better informed, more enlightened, and maybe a little bit less selfish.

Not dumpin' on ya'; just sayin' ...

Dan C

edit: my wife is from Nottingham. She was actually raised just up the road (it was like a long driveway back then, but they've changed it all now) from Nottingham Castle (which doesn't look like a castle but those US tourists like to send postcards with castles on them). So I do know what you mean-- well, not really, but I understand the concept-- almost, any way-- ok, the truth is my wife is always on me about this too so you probably have a point just maybe say it better ...

Yes there are sooooo many world wide views out there

 

[Tishri1]

Hey, guys! Who knew I'd get taken seriously?!?

Well your idea for a debate forum does have merit, maybe not call it Torah bashers is all