Icons and the last few years on CF

[Rachel Rachel]

I think most here can decide for themselves....
Dan C

AMEN!!

 

[ContraMundum]

mpossoff, that's a really good tactic there- pulling post #144 from page 15, and here we are on page 44 post #440! So any ensuing discussion on it is effectively nullified. You seem pretty knowledgeable, why resort to this?

Bottom line, you are correct about the diversity within MJ. However, those MJ's whose views fall more into line with mainstream teachings have a plethora of fora to choose from here. This one is for those who want to move toward Torah observance. When it ceases to be that, most of us will have no reason to be here. The TNK is valid folk will all leave, and the 'sola scriptura, y scriptura sola NT' bunch will all return to their own places as there will be no one left here to force to convert. So just what is it you hope to achieve?

Dan C

You haven't been around long enough to see this forum morph. It's always in a state of flux. The diversity of the MJ forum is merely a reflection of what's out there. Trying to make it one version over another is quite pointless and ultimately futile, as beliefs tend to change quit a bit person to person. I personally prefer diversity, and think attempts to hijack the forum in the name of any one interpretation to be poor form.

So the question you ask of my brother ("what is it you hope to achieve?") could be levelled back at you too- or anyone.

Yes- there will always be other forums for people to go to, but likewise this forum has accommodated both One Law'ers and more mainstream folks by creating sub-forums for each group's particular needs. Why people refuse to use them is really the question no one is asking.

 

[ContraMundum]

I'm not against this place being a place to move towards Torah observance. It depends who/what is considered mainstream.

Some would say the likes of MJAA, UMJC are mainstream. Even FFOZ who was on the other side of MJAA and UMJC is now more in line with the likes of UMJC and MJAA. Which are organizations that are Torah for Jews only.

Some would say the likes of CTMOC is mainstream which is an organization that is one law for all.

My point is whether or not certain organizations are considered mainstream and organizations that are counter chose to create own organizations because they didn't believe in mainstream.

This is what has happened. Now are the organizations that split away from the likes of MJAA, UMJC and even FFOZ considered mainstream too? If not then its not fair to be considered mainstream. If so then your statement of "However, those MJ's whose views fall more into line with mainstream teachings have a plethora of fora to choose from here."would work.

I've talked to leadership in CTMOC as an example. And they split from MJAA and created CTMOC because XYZ. Now they split from an already existing entity to create. So this could also mean they split from mainstream MJ to create an organization that is contrary to mainstream.

My other point is if there is(and I say IF) a mainstream MJ and organizations that split from mainstream, be honest and say you're not part of mainstream MJ or you are.

As an example I'm in line with organizations like the UMJC and MJAA. My opinion is they are the mainstream, the pioneer organizations of the Messianic Jewish movement. I'm not in line with organizations that split from the UMJC and MJAA. I don't consider these groups mainstream MJ. Just because I don't consider them mainstream doesn't mean it's bad.

Others may say well the groups that split compile of the mainstream.

There may come a time when the various MJ groups no longer fellowship with each other, and this will cause the need for separate MJ denominational forums anyway.

 

[ContraMundum]

Actually, before this recent mainstream incursion, it was pretty much all Torah observant MJ.

Actually, no it wasn't.

We've had all kinds here, and years ago One Law'ers were hardly represented. Most of the posters here have historically been mainstream MJ with a charismatic or evangelical underlying theology. The whole "Observant" thing (whatever that means in real terms) is pretty recent.

The issue is completely a waste of time. No one really wants to address the brass tacks here- what does it mean to be Torah observant? If someone says "well, you don't need tzitzis" another will accuse him or her of being "against Torah". This is fanatic madness and it needs to stop. We're being asked to turn on each other like the Muslims do over the laws of the religion. I'm against tearing communities apart for religion.

In Torah, there is a learning curve and observance is very much a matter of personal development and choice. I hate to say it but many of the Gentile posters here just don't seem to understand that, nor do many want it. They tend to bring the denominational mentality of the Western church into MJism- that is, they want written rules and complete conformity and they want it immediately for all. "Our way or the Highway". Posters from Jewish backgrounds tend to see this as folly, trust me. We all talk to each other and we all are pretty mystified at the spectacle that goes on when this topic rears it head. Whether we're MJ or RJ we tend to see this whole kvetch as ridiculous. We tend to see the value of the Torah but also know the being frum is not easy. What's more, is that we tend to bring the tolerance of our way of life into our MJism, so all this fighting and condemnation just seems so...unJewish/unChristian.

Fact: pretty much everyone regular posting here believes in the Torah, its relevance, and its immutable authority. The conversation should therefore always only focus on continuing dialogue on how the Torah is lived in this life. Rather than kick each other- how about supporting each other?

 

[Messianic Jewboy]

If Those which are "one law" want this forum to be "one law", then they need to call it what it is. Otherwise, this issue is going to continue as new arrivals come here.
If however an effort is made to have a Messianic forum, then the main subsets do need to be included. This should cause no problems here. As each subset would have the same rules applied, that any other subset has site wide. I enjoy discussions within the Messianic spectrum. To be able to discuss in a subset or two would be great. Some subsets, I would not even desire to enter. It just would not appeal to me. I am sure it would be likewise for everyone which falls within a subset. This should cause much less strife currently here, and going into the future as new people arrive.
The main messianic forum should just be a brief description of each subset, most commonly found within Messianic Judaism, and leave each one subset to it's own SOP if it sees the need.

Good point. Calling it One Law Messianic's might be better or something like that which is fine. But don't go claiming you're mainstream Messianic Judaism because of a forum is one law as an example that causes problems when the forum is one law but calling themselves Messianic Judaism. If you go to Wikipedia you'll see Messianic Judaism opposes certain doctrines; 2 house, one law, supercessionism.

 

[ContraMundum]

It is something that doesn't line up easily or really connect - and one of the things mainstream Messianic Judaism have often noted to be problematic.

I agree. There seems to be a lot of heat coming from some people about not mixing it with the Gentile religions (eg. anti-Church in particular comes to mind). Knowing that it's easy to understand why some of us get confused by the statements I referred to.

 

[annier]

Actually, before this recent mainstream incursion, it was pretty much all Torah observant MJ. It still is mostly TOMJ. So who is it that is doing the lobbying, really? I mean, the SoP specifies TOMJ, the regular posters are TOMJ, and yet all the NT folks just show up at once, flood the forum and accuse us of trying to change things.

And you've moved from asking questions to taking sides in a "discussion" that your icon doesn't support.

Dan C

Just curious. How do you speak of any history beyond your few months here? I have been here only a little longer than yourself and I know of one Messianic Jew, which no longer posts here. Before this person left, there were comments made about many Jews having left the forum already, due to what was going on in here, and obviously had been ongoing at that time (as is continuing now). So, I am just curious upon where you draw your history on this forum and it's posters? Who are considered as "regular" posters. How many "regulars" have left? Who were the original "regulars"? If I, being here only a little longer than yourself, have known one Jew to leave here as a Messianic, then And not being here when other Messianic Jews felt "kicked out" by those which remain here, how do you speak of who the "regulars" are, that ought to have the bully pulpit?

 

[Chaplain David]

Shalom,

This is not applicable to everyone but occurs often enough to make it forefront in my mind.

As things are being brought up and discussed I think it's prudent that we don't make the discussion of topics into personal matters where we are piciking at each other and making personal comments that are not helpful.

Discussing respective topics can certainly be helpful, especially when pinpointing what the problems are and brainstorming what the solutions might be.

But let's not turn the discussion of principles and issues into personal attacks which only muddy the waters and keep emotions at a high pitch?

I think we can do this! We remain committed to helping to improve this forum for everyone. We can say what we have to say without taking an inventory of the poster we are addressing.

G-d bless everyone.

Faithfully,
CH Sacerdote

 

[ContraMundum]

Come on, this has been hashed and rehashed. We keep answering and you just keep recycling the same accusations and the same arguments like nothing has been said. I've shown that it is the NT incursion, including you, who wants to change things here, yet all you have is to keep repeating the lie that it is me/the TOMJ posters who want to change things. Others have quoted the SoP until we should all have it memorized, yet you still just want to cry about it not being to your liking and suggest it isn't clear.

What is clear to me is that this is an attempt by a bunch of petty NT only types to hijack this forum, turning it into who knows what. And I still don't believe in coincidences on the magnitude of this Greek invasion!

Dan C

At the risk of being repetitious- the forum has historically been more mainstream MJ, and not One Law. As many have pointed out, the forum has been more in line with MJism (which is against One Law generally)

Now perhaps you equate One Law with MJism, but I hate to tell you that this is not the case, at least numerically speaking. Most MJs are very grace centred, tolerant and understanding of the varying levels of observance around. I don't think there is such as thing as "NT" (which I assume you mean "No Torah" as opposed to the more popular usage meaning "New Testament") in any MJ context either (not even popular in the churches anymore) It's really just a matter of where you draw your lines of observance.

Also, there is no "Greek invasion" at present. I think the forum's timeline would easily demonstrate that there has been more of a One Law revival, and there has been a strong reaction to that. The invasion really came about from the One Law'ers, who really haven't clearly explained in concrete terms what exactly their gripe is anyway.

 

[ananda]

... If you go to Wikipedia you'll see Messianic Judaism opposes certain doctrines; 2 house, one law, supercessionism.

What makes the editors of Wikipedia the final arbiters of what is and what is not MJ?

 

[Messianic Jewboy]

Just curious. How do you speak of any history beyond your few months here? I have been here only a little longer than yourself and I know of one Messianic Jew, which no longer posts here. Before this person left, there were comments made about many Jews having left the forum already, due to what was going on in here, and obviously had been ongoing at that time (as is continuing now). So, I am just curious upon where you draw your history on this forum and it's posters? Who are considered as "regular" posters. How many "regulars" have left? Who were the original "regulars"? If I, being here only a little longer than yourself, have known one Jew to leave here as a Messianic, then And not being here when other Messianic Jews felt "kicked out" by those which remain here, how do you speak of who the "regulars" are, that ought to have the bully pulpit?

I'm a Jew and since I am involved in Messianic Judaism I might not be welcome here.

 

[ContraMundum]

There was Qnts2 who is a Messianic Jew. I'm a messianic Jew. I think I'm the only Jew here.

You forgot me, Shimmy, CMo3 and a few others as well.

 

[ContraMundum]

What makes the editors of Wikipedia the final arbiters of what is and what is not MJ?

Nothing. However, if you think they are wrong, take it up with them. Why not? I think that article is pretty accurate and fair, according to my experience and knowledge base, but if you can show otherwise, give it a try.

 

[annier]

I agree..


That would be something worth considering, IMHO - for it makes zero logical sense when claiming the forum itself is a Torah Observant MJ Forum and welcoming of Messianic Jews of diversity - and yet those Messianic Jews/Messianic Gentiles who come end up being told they're not Messianic Jewish in lifestyle or Messianic Jewish in observance of Torah because of not agreeing to their views which are really ONE representation of the movement. It gets problematic when people claim a forum is for Torah Observant Messianic Judaism - and then those who are with mainstream/traditional Messianic Judaism (i.e. MJAA, UMJC, even Noahides, Ariel Ministries with Dr. Arnold, etc.)/passionate on observing God's Torah are told they're not "Torah Observant" for noting plainly what's IN the Torah when it comes to the traditional stance of MJism in noting distinctions/specific commands - and other things present as well.

I agree, it is an accident waiting to happen mentality. This has obviously been going on for quite sometime ( I am going by everyones comments to this fact). So, it does naturally lead to a person wondering at motivations in purposely setting things up for strife to continue? Jews, themselves which are the heart and beginnings of Messianic Judaism, have left, feeling kicked out. Yet, nothing to ease such thing as that. So, who really is it that "one law" Messianics (most of which are known to be Gentiles) appealing to here? Certainly not the larger Messianic believers. So to whom are these one laws really appealing to?
And why isn't a Christian forum showing more concern for injustices being done here? I do not understand this.

The same applies for Messianics working in Churches as the mainstream has for the Jews who see Torah Observance/Scriptural history reflected in the Church (as originally seen by Messianic Jews in the early Messianic Jewish movement from the 1st Century) - all seeking the Lord/being obedient - and yet having room allowed for other Messianics to harrass them when claiming "They're not Messianic or Torah Observant!!!" while the same ones saying that claim they are (as Messianic Gentiles) harassed because the mainstream does not agree with them.

There've long been differing views of what it means to be "Torah Observant" - so as long as people don't respect that and assume one doesn't observe because language of expression differs from them in their preference, you'll have problems. Someone saying "The Law of Moses isn't the main reason for why we serve Christ" - based on II Corinthians 3-4 where Paul speaks about the purpose of the Law and noting how it has changed - isn't saying that the Law of Moses has no purpose/nothing it in applies - but someone from one of the newer groups (tending to be Messianic Gentiles) runs in claiming others feel 'Torah is done away with!!!! It's not for Gentiles!!!!".....and then accusations start. The same thing goes for noting with integrity what the Torah says at specific points when the Lord noted what was commanded of the Hebrews - and what was commanded of the Gentiles, as well as what the Gentiles could join into (outside of Gentiles like Ruth becoming a part of the people) - and it gets assumed people are saying Gentiles have no part in MJism or that Gentiles wishing to identify with Israel/see that Torah was for the nations is somehow exiled from Torah observance.

We (those familiar with MJISM), all know this is a major issue in the movement, we flat know it. We know the common terms which describe it.
ONE LAW DOCTRINE vs DIVINE INVITATION are no secret, except here!
Nobody wants their faith misrepresented, especially if it is completely opposed to their own faith ideology.
Hence the request to at least call the forum ONE LAW MJ.
It is a matter of "Do unto others as you would have them do to you". In this particular case. But on a Christian forum which HAS different faith groups to fellowship in, and for others to become familiar with their group, to come and see. So they are doing for themselves, what is not being done for Mjism. I do not understand this.
There have been many comments made saying "grow up". Yes, let's all grow up and accept the way things are. Growing up means to accept the world the way it is, not pretending it is some utopia, of our own making. It means accepting people have views we do not share, and many of those views we even utterly detest. But to deny they even exist, really is not being "grown up". Well, at least I do not think so.
Just my appeal to the higher nature we all share

 

[Messianic Jewboy]

What makes the editors of Wikipedia the final arbiters of what is and what is not MJ?

Because if you look at organizations like UMJC and MJAA Wikipedia is right in line with such organizations.

 

[dodari]

Originally Posted by mpossoff

"There was Qnts2 who is a Messianic Jew. I'm a messianic Jew. I think I'm the only Jew here."

Your original post #471 before you edited it. ^------^------^------^

By virtue of the fact that my Mom was a traditional(meaning non-Jesus believing) Jewess, I have been given to understand that for the last 73+ years I am halakicly Jewish as assured to me by such as: R. Arthur Flicker, B'nai Israel(Conservative), R. Chaim Schmuckler-Chabad, and Rabbi Mordecai Sher, M.O.(Orthodox). Even as far back as 1956 R. Morris Margolies, of Blessed Memory, a very brilliant and dear man, of Beth Shalom(Conservative), Kansas City, Mo., assured me that I was sufficiently Jewish even if I was 1/2 Lakota by my father, when my Mom moved us kids from Pine Ridge, S.D. to Kansas City, and we attended Beth Shalom.

So don't feel alone.

 

[anisavta]

You haven't been around long enough to see this forum morph. It's always in a state of flux. The diversity of the MJ forum is merely a reflection of what's out there. Trying to make it one version over another is quite pointless and ultimately futile, as beliefs tend to change quit a bit person to person. I personally prefer diversity, and think attempts to hijack the forum in the name of any one interpretation to be poor form.

Second verse, same as the first...or is it the third or fourth verse...
Last year we had a few (one not here anymore Baruch Hashem and one still postin' away) that decided (for all of us mind you) based on their doctrines (which change periodically), this forum should be changed. Name change, SoP change, sub-forums change. And then there were the Jesus rules - Torah drools crowd that come and go like athletes foot. And so after the same blowup as now, the admin had to pow-wow and come up with a new and improved SoP and sub-forums.
Now we have a new crowd who are here with the same and I mean very same complaints and want a new SoP and a new name and new sub-forums. And the beat goes on. Next year we'll go through the same thing, I'm sure.
Until everyone grows up and realizes that everyone is entitled to their own ridiculous opinion (I think I posted this same thing last year and the year before...) and if you don't agree with someone, someone will most definitely disagree with you.
What would happen to all these barroom brawls if we had to do this by skype and actually saw a real living breathing person on the other end? Would others put up with a 20 minute soliloquy on our pet doctrine? Would we allow someone to tell us what a (fill in the blank) that we were before we clicked them off?
Wouldn't it be a miracle if we could all agree to disagree and move on so everyone out in cyberland would stop rolling their eyes at us and wonder just what's so great about Messianic Judaism anyway?
It's getting old, folks.
Okay, back to your fistfight.

 

[ContraMundum]

Second verse, same as the first...or is it the third or fourth verse...
Last year we had a few (one not here anymore Baruch Hashem and one still postin' away) that decided (for all of us mind you) based on their doctrines (which change periodically), this forum should be changed. Name change, SoP change, sub-forums change. And then there were the Jesus rules - Torah drools crowd that come and go like athletes foot. And so after the same blowup as now, the admin had to pow-wow and come up with a new and improved SoP and sub-forums.
Now we have a new crowd who are here with the same and I mean very same complaints and want a new SoP and a new name and new sub-forums. And the beat goes on. Next year we'll go through the same thing, I'm sure.
Until everyone grows up and realizes that everyone is entitled to their own ridiculous opinion (I think I posted this same thing last year and the year before...) and if you don't agree with someone, someone will most definitely disagree with you.
What would happen to all these barroom brawls if we had to do this by skype and actually saw a real living breathing person on the other end? Would others put up with a 20 minute soliloquy on our pet doctrine? Would we allow someone to tell us what a (fill in the blank) that we were before we clicked them off?
Wouldn't it be a miracle if we could all agree to disagree and move on so everyone out in cyberland would stop rolling their eyes at us and wonder just what's so great about Messianic Judaism anyway?
It's getting old, folks.
Okay, back to your fistfight.

Amen to that.

 

[dnc101]

So the question you ask of my brother ("what is it you hope to achieve?") could be levelled back at you too-

Most of your posts were just repetitious, so I'll keep this simple- and answer annier here as well.

I hope to keep the forum close to what the SoP was/is at the time I joined here, with some possible tweeks.

I hope to stop a horde of dishonorable mainC posters in conjunction with some of the more troublesome longtime posters from railroading changes.

True, I havn't been here as long as you. My early posts on this topic acknowledged that. But that doesn't invalidate my observations.

It is untrue that there hasn't been a lot of problems with outside posters disrupting the forum, and they have been from the mainC side mostly, along with a few of the regulars. Anyone who has been awake here the last couple of weeks has seen this for themselves. Those that don't want to won't.

You make a lot of assumptions about what I believe, then attack your own argument. Straw man- when people resort to that tactic they know the truth is not in their camp.

In the final analysis, this forum is neither mine nor yours. The staff and owners have what they need by now to decide where they want to go with this forum. Once they decide, we are all free to stay or leave. So I'll leave it as is, as this whole thread has degenerated into the kind of childishness you can see at any grade school playground. The fact is the Greek side has nothing to say, other than to throw out the same accusations, the same arguments, and a twist of straw from time to time, regardless how many times it is shown they are wrong.

It's getting tired. So I won't answer unless your statements are too egregious to ignore. Think I'll just wait and see what actions staff takes, then one way or another I'll just have to live with it- as will we all.

Dan C

 

[Tishri1]

I can't catch up ..... I'm gonna close this till I can catch up with the discussion here k?