Icons and the last few years on CF

[Tishri1]

Sorry to hear this, but understandable. I personally value the input of Jewish posters here, and I'm thankful that you are here at all.

I'd like to see the rules officially relaxed in regards to Jewish posters answering questions. That isn't teaching, it is a courtesy afforded us by you. So hang in there.

The only constant in human relations is change, and that always comes through conflict. Maybe there will be some adjustments made after this; who knows. If not, well, I think most here do appreciate you and others who've contributed to our understanding. Thanks.

Dan C

Well what does everyone else think about letting them teach too?

The only thing i care about is that we get away from who can and cant observe and who is and isn't MJ

 

[Tishri1]

To Tish: You are a blessing. Thank you for all you do.

To everyone: The issue has always been about people teaching against Gentiles keeping Torah. I will always be against that. It makes me angry when they are given the opportunity. Get over it.

To Chava: You are an asset to everyone here. You should not leave.

That's all I can manage from this phone.

 

[Tishri1]

This is not the only forum that "issues" that are contraversial come into play. One has to learn like Tishri said to "hold one's tongue". I see lots of wrong "faith judgment" in OBOB about EO theology ....I just refrain from going in to their "turf" to "set it right". I know there might be posts that missrepresent one or another faith...But we would have to learn to hold our tongue...Just reinforcing here what Tishri is saying...I cannot go into a Protestant Congregation and "teach them" the EO view of the Eucharist we have GT for that....purpose.... We can ask questions bout MJ or EO or Torah observance but we cannot debate that observance... There has to be a certain place for it.

thank you for your testimony here..You all Philothei has one of the most open forums....so does Mark ....i wish that for us too

Its not with out issues but the fact everyone wants to keep peace, they all work hard and have a fine place to show off to the world

Thank you Contra too your post was definitely something to think about...
DNC you have the right idea, use your ignore button and your report button

 

[Tishri1]

I am offering a prayer for this forum...
Lord Jesus Christ the healer of our souls and bodies please come and abide in all of us present in this forum and give us the strength the courage and the wisdom to see this through! Gather us all as your children to unity, love, compassion and protect us under your loving wings! Yes Lord we are hoping from you to bring down through Your Holy Spirit...peace, wisdom, joy, charity. Instill in us a peaceful and loving heart and teach us to do Your will always and for ever to the ages of ages Amen!

 

[Tishri1]

Tishri, this is just strange to me. It sounds like other accusations made against Jews.

I am both Tishri.
Despite you claiming I am illegitimate.

I apologize if you have found a group that does believe in Yeshua

I would love to meet them

 

[Tishri1]

I agree, even if I have chosen the back end of the horses costume. But it does put me in a unique position to follow your lead. I'll try not to be overly critical. No promises.

Fellowship only forum? I dunno Tish. There are so many seekers that come here for clarification of Torah passages from an observant Messianic JUDAISM perspective. They want the short answer. What they end up in, is a crossfire over Christian dogma sprinkled with the occasional Hebrew word or phrase. I think that they should be given the straight scoop without the, "OK, but we can't talk about that here" routine.

What we need is a short, strong, to the point, all caps, "READ THIS BEFORE YOU POST" sticky with links.

Again, you asked.

your right I asked

What about the rest of you?

 

[Yahudim]

Hey buddy,

I think that's the real problem. Getting angry over nothing.

That's what you get for thinking. Especially thinking that you know what I should be passionate about.

Let me put it in perspective for you. It's the internet. You don't live your life here, and what happens here doesn't rule your life. Why let it anger you?

Perspective huh? The internet is a communication medium. But you know that. And it's not like you haven't gotten angry over messages that came to you via the internet. Nice try though. It sounded sooo sensible! But we have both been baited, so we both know better.

So what if people disagree with you? Conversely, so what if others think you're wrong? So what if you think they are? Storm in a teacup, my friend.

Got the last part right - my friend. But you are so confused about everything else. Don't worry though. I'll help you figure it out! Embrace your passion!

 

[dodari]

Fellowship only forum? I dunno Tish. There are so many seekers that come here for clarification of Torah passages from an observant Messianic JUDAISM perspective. They want the short answer. What they end up in, is a crossfire over Christian dogma sprinkled with the occasional Hebrew word or phrase. I think that they should be given the straight scoop without the, "OK, but we can't talk about that here" routine.

What we need is a short, strong, to the point, all caps, "READ THIS BEFORE YOU POST" sticky with links.

Again, you asked.

your right I asked

What about the rest of you?

I think Tal has a good and sustainable point, if and only if the Sticky absolutely, and in no unmistaken terms, spells out the specifications/constraints of what posts may contain and also what must be excluded.

 

[dnc101]

What do you all think of keeping this main forum fellowship only?

Well, since I came here to learn, I don't think it is a good idea. And honestly, with the attitude of the disrupters I don't think it would solve anything. If they want to disrupt our forum, they won't follow the new rules any better than they did the old ones.

Well what does everyone else think about letting them teach too?

The only thing i care about is that we get away from who can and cant observe and who is and isn't MJ

I'm not opposed to allowing Jewish posters teaching privileges, but that is different than relaxing rules and allowing them to answer questions. You open yourself up to a whole new batch of disruptive posters then. Not speaking against Jews as a whole, however there are those who are "anti-missionary"- which can be a bit of a misnomer because they too are (or can be) quite militant.

Frankly, Christianity as a whole is inescapably Jewish. Therefore it would be appropriate for them to have a forum here where they can post freely. And the same should apply to them as to us, that no one goes there to harass or disrupt their forum. Ask respectful questions only.

DNC you have the right idea, use your ignore button and your report button

Yes, well, it's too bad we can't just handle things in-house. If it is just us, we generally can. But that only works when everyone wants to make the forum work. This obviously doesn't apply to this latest invasion or some of the foot soldiers left behind; or to some of the long time abusers which CAN be ignored if there aren't too many of them. Heck-fire, I didn't even need a button to ignore them then! An incursion of the magnitude we just experienced doesn't allow even that system to work well, buttons or not.

And on it goes ...

Dan (rollin' wit da changes) C

 

[yedida]

your right I asked

What about the rest of you?

I said last time around just what Tal said here. People come into MJ and they don't look for subforums, they post to this main one. To make it only fellowship isn't gonna work!

Take one of the two subforums we have and create a "bash the Torah" forum for all I care, and let all the nay sayers have at it, IN THERE. But keep them out of the main forum!

That's what I say....you asked....

 

[mishkan]

oh, and I admit, I don't know much about EO. Thanks for not hammering me when I assumed your views on the Eucharist are the same as RC!

You mean they're different???

 

[dnc101]

I like to keep things in perspective ...

*deletes long and overly verbose post*

Look, what does it really matter? We'll never meet, and you'd not be the first to hate me. At least you are just a collection of ones and zeros, so ...

I like most of the legitimate posters here, and the forum is worth fighting for. But no individual here is worth dying for, or even loosing sleep over. Storm in a teacup- yeah, but that doesn't mean we should roll over and just let the zeros win the fight either!

Dan (usually hits dead center when aiming at a zero) C

 

[dnc101]

You mean they're different???

LOL! I have NO idea! But who knew that a super-mod was EO either! Just keepin' it real ...

Dan C

 

[Tishri1]

I think Tal has a good and sustainable point, if and only if the Sticky absolutely, and in no unmistaken terms, spells out the specifications/constraints of what posts may contain and also what must be excluded.

this could happen

Well, since I came here to learn, I don't think it is a good idea. And honestly, with the attitude of the disrupters I don't think it would solve anything. If they want to disrupt our forum, they won't follow the new rules any better than they did the old ones.


I'm not opposed to allowing Jewish posters teaching privileges, but that is different than relaxing rules and allowing them to answer questions. You open yourself up to a whole new batch of disruptive posters then. Not speaking against Jews as a whole, however there are those who are "anti-missionary"- which can be a bit of a misnomer because they too are (or can be) quite militant.

Frankly, Christianity as a whole is inescapably Jewish. Therefore it would be appropriate for them to have a forum here where they can post freely. And the same should apply to them as to us, that no one goes there to harass or disrupt their forum. Ask respectful questions only.


Yes, well, it's too bad we can't just handle things in-house. If it is just us, we generally can. But that only works when everyone wants to make the forum work. This obviously doesn't apply to this latest invasion or some of the foot soldiers left behind; or to some of the long time abusers which CAN be ignored if there aren't too many of them. Heck-fire, I didn't even need a button to ignore them then! An incursion of the magnitude we just experienced doesn't allow even that system to work well, buttons or not.

And on it goes ...

Dan (rollin' wit da changes) C

good food for thought ...any others opinions?

I said last time around just what Tal said here. People come into MJ and they don't look for subforums, they post to this main one. To make it only fellowship isn't gonna work!

Take one of the two subforums we have and create a "bash the Torah" forum for all I care, and let all the nay sayers have at it, IN THERE. But keep them out of the main forum!

That's what I say....you asked....

Soooo bold and to the point ....its kinda cool ....lets seee....a debate forum that calls it like it is
What about making it report free too
Im serious. Why not? If we call it bash the Torah we cant really action Rvs in there as it is kinda inviting a bit of attitude....right?

Thoughts everyone?

 

[dnc101]

Soooo bold and to the point ....its kinda cool ....lets seee....a debate forum that calls it like it is
What about making it report free too
Im serious. Why not? If we call it bash the Torah we cant really action Rvs in there as it is kinda inviting a bit of attitude....right?

Thoughts everyone?

Heh-heh-heh!

Dan C

 

[mishkan]

Well what does everyone else think about letting them teach too?

Honestly, I like the challenge now and then. As long as non-MJ's or anti-Torah posters aren't allowed to overpower the Observant MJ population. Isn't that really what we all are looking for? The problem, it seems to me, is that we are trying to write black-and-white rules to express and enforce a concept that lies on a graduated spectrum. As soon as we say "affirming Torah" (or some such phrasing), someone will want to argue over "how much Torah".

The only thing i care about is that we get away from who can and cant observe and who is and isn't MJ

But, Tish! Those are the only two questions that count!

Honestly...

• "Who can, and can't, observe?"
  
  That is driven by the broader MJ world, unfortunately. This is where our "leaders"--Dauerman, Schiffman, Kinzer, Fruchtenbaum, et al--set a pace that we just cannot ignore.

• "Who is, and isn't, MJ?"
  
  This is a matter of history. Prior to the mid-80's, most Jewish believers identified as Christians who were of Jewish/Hebrew descent. The normal nomenclature was "Hebrew Christian" or "Jewish Christian".
  
  Those of us who lived through this period took note of a definite time when the terminology of "Messianic Judaism" was invoked. Dauerman even wrote a major paper on the change, entitled, "Judaism as Genus, Messianic as Species". The point of the discussion back then was that, in earlier times, "Christian" was the genus, while "Jewish" or "Hebrew" was the species. In the newer perspective, we started working towards a Judaism, of which the Messianic variety was the species of Judaism being practiced.

Since then, there have been two very clear sets of terminology. The problem is, those who were not around 20-30 years ago have not been brought up to speed on the terms.

It is not an insult, or judgment of any kind, to identify a Jew who follows church teaching as "Hebrew Christian". It is merely a statement of fact. Especially for those who accept the Christian teaching that Messiah has made Torah observance moot for believers today.

Likewise, it is not uniquely complimentary to identify with the term "Messianic Judaism". It is a factual label, indicating that the bearer identifies with the Jewish community, including Torah observance and interaction with rabbinic and cultural ideals. Such a person follows "Judaism as genus" and "Messianic as species".

Are there some who view themselves as Messianic, but live in the church world? Well, we have a couple professional clergymen here who say that is exactly what they do. I suppose if they claim that is their calling, then we have to take their word for it. Personally, I would have integrity issues trying to play that game. For non-leaders, I can testify from observing hundreds of congregants over the years, that it is nearly impossible to lead such a dual life. One eventually falls over into one category or the other--Messianic or Hebrew-Christian, Judaism or Christian.

But all that aside, there are certainly many Biblical/spiritual topics that can be discussed without stepping on the land mines of identity issues... I think... Maybe...? Aren't there?

Hmmmmmm... let's see:
- a Jewish book...
- written by Jewish authors...
- about the God of the Jews...
- whose chose the Jews...
- exiled the Jews...
- promises to return/redeem the Jews...
- sent a Jewish Messiah...
- to take the Jewish throne...
- to set up a new Jewish-based planet-wide monarchy...

Naaaaah... no identity issues there.

 

[yedida]

Honestly, I like the challenge now and then. As long as non-MJ's or anti-Torah posters aren't allowed to overpower the Observant MJ population. Isn't that really what we all are looking for? The problem, it seems to me, is that we are trying to write black-and-white rules to express and enforce a concept that lies on a graduated spectrum. As soon as we say "affirming Torah" (or some such phrasing), someone will want to argue over "how much Torah".



But, Tish! Those are the only two questions that count!

Honestly...

• "Who can, and can't, observe?"
  
  That is driven by the broader MJ world, unfortunately. This is where our "leaders"--Dauerman, Schiffman, Kinzer, Fruchtenbaum, et al--set a pace that we just cannot ignore.

• "Who is, and isn't, MJ?"
  
  This is a matter of history. Prior to the mid-80's, most Jewish believers identified as Christians who were of Jewish/Hebrew descent. The normal nomenclature was "Hebrew Christian" or "Jewish Christian".
  
  Those of us who lived through this period took note of a definite time when the terminology of "Messianic Judaism" was invoked. Dauerman even wrote a major paper on the change, entitled, "Judaism as Genus, Messianic as Species". The point of the discussion back then was that, in earlier times, "Christian" was the genus, while "Jewish" or "Hebrew" was the species. In the newer perspective, we started working towards a Judaism, of which the Messianic variety was the species of Judaism being practiced.

Since then, there have been two very clear sets of terminology. The problem is, those who were not around 20-30 years ago have not been brought up to speed on the terms.

It is not an insult, or judgment of any kind, to identify a Jew who follows church teaching as "Hebrew Christian". It is merely a statement of fact. Especially for those who accept the Christian teaching that Messiah has made Torah observance moot for believers today.

Likewise, it is not uniquely complimentary to identify with the term "Messianic Judaism". It is a factual label, indicating that the bearer identifies with the Jewish community, including Torah observance and interaction with rabbinic and cultural ideals. Such a person follows "Judaism as genus" and "Messianic as species".

Are there some who view themselves as Messianic, but live in the church world? Well, we have a couple professional clergymen here who say that is exactly what they do. I suppose if they claim that is their calling, then we have to take their word for it. Personally, I would have integrity issues trying to play that game. For non-leaders, I can testify from observing hundreds of congregants over the years, that it is nearly impossible to lead such a dual life. One eventually falls over into one category or the other--Messianic or Hebrew-Christian, Judaism or Christian.

But all that aside, there are certainly many Biblical/spiritual topics that can be discussed without stepping on the land mines of identity issues... I think... Maybe...? Aren't there?

Hmmmmmm... let's see:
- a Jewish book...
- written by Jewish authors...
- about the God of the Jews...
- whose chose the Jews...
- exiled the Jews...
- promises to return/redeem the Jews...
- sent a Jewish Messiah...
- to take the Jewish throne...
- to set up a new Jewish-based planet-wide monarchy...

Naaaaah... no identity issues there.

 

[dodari]

Heh-heh-heh!

Dan C

Now you calm down there, stop getting so itchey, you'll scare them away.

this could happen

good food for thought ...any others opinions?


Soooo bold and to the point ....its kinda cool ....lets seee....a debate forum that calls it like it is
What about making it report free too
Im serious. Why not? If we call it bash the Torah we cant really action Rvs in there as it is kinda inviting a bit of attitude....right?

Thoughts everyone?

Sounds good but they must be armed, .357 and above, using 'wadcutters'.

OK, ok Uzzis and Mac's too just remember 'low left high right'.

Maybe an M2HB? Maybe a nice LAWS 40mm.?

We don' need no estinkin' permit!

 

[dnc101]

Honestly, ...
Naaaaah... no identity issues there.

Dan C

 

[annier]

Honestly, I like the challenge now and then. As long as non-MJ's or anti-Torah posters aren't allowed to overpower the Observant MJ population. Isn't that really what we all are looking for? The problem, it seems to me, is that we are trying to write black-and-white rules to express and enforce a concept that lies on a graduated spectrum. As soon as we say "affirming Torah" (or some such phrasing), someone will want to argue over "how much Torah".



But, Tish! Those are the only two questions that count!

Honestly...

• "Who can, and can't, observe?"
  
  That is driven by the broader MJ world, unfortunately. This is where our "leaders"--Dauerman, Schiffman, Kinzer, Fruchtenbaum, et al--set a pace that we just cannot ignore.

• Bingo, Mjism is a movement outside of this forum. It is shaped by forces beyond this forum. It is what it is. Ignoring that is what is causing the problems here.

• "

  Who is, and isn't, MJ?"
  
  This is a matter of history. Prior to the mid-80's, most Jewish believers identified as Christians who were of Jewish/Hebrew descent. The normal nomenclature was "Hebrew Christian" or "Jewish Christian".
  
  Those of us who lived through this period took note of a definite time when the terminology of "Messianic Judaism" was invoked. Dauerman even wrote a major paper on the change, entitled, "Judaism as Genus, Messianic as Species". The point of the discussion back then was that, in earlier times, "Christian" was the genus, while "Jewish" or "Hebrew" was the species. In the newer perspective, we started working towards a Judaism, of which the Messianic variety was the species of Judaism being practiced.

Since then, there have been two very clear sets of terminology. The problem is, those who were not around 20-30 years ago have not been brought up to speed on the terms.

It is not an insult, or judgment of any kind, to identify a Jew who follows church teaching as "Hebrew Christian". It is merely a statement of fact.

Arnold Fructenbaum has been labeled both. Yet He is a leader in the Messianic world.

Especially for those who accept the Christian teaching that Messiah has made Torah observance moot for believers today.

It is a matter of which believers Mishkan. And which ones are moot.

Likewise, it is not uniquely complimentary to identify with the term "Messianic Judaism". It is a factual label, indicating that the bearer identifies with the Jewish community, including Torah observance and interaction with rabbinic and cultural ideals. Such a person follows "Judaism as genus" and "Messianic as species".

Are there some who view themselves as Messianic, but live in the church world? Well, we have a couple professional clergymen here who say that is exactly what they do. I suppose if they claim that is their calling, then we have to take their word for it. Personally, I would have integrity issues trying to play that game. For non-leaders, I can testify from observing hundreds of congregants over the years, that it is nearly impossible to lead such a dual life. One eventually falls over into one category or the other--Messianic or Hebrew-Christian, Judaism or Christian.

But all that aside, there are certainly many Biblical/spiritual topics that can be discussed without stepping on the land mines of identity issues... I think... Maybe...? Aren't there?

Hmmmmmm... let's see:
- a Jewish book...
- written by Jewish authors...
- about the God of the Jews...
- whose chose the Jews...
- exiled the Jews...
- promises to return/redeem the Jews...
- sent a Jewish Messiah...
- to take the Jewish throne...
- to set up a new Jewish-based planet-wide monarchy...

Naaaaah... no identity issues there.

As for terms reflecting the modern spectrum, they appear to be taboo here, but are well known in Messianic Judaism.
One law, vs divine invitation. A very recent development. That is the issue which is danced around in this forum rather than acknowledged as different ideologies in the movement. It is just ignored.
But even all that aside, the problem really is that Messianic Judaism is new. As you present the history here yourself. There have been no councils, no set authority and structure as the Church has done. I am not making a judgment on that fact being good or bad. But.....What is really happenening here is that a movement who's structure is not according to the christian structure, is not going to do well attempting to put itself within a Christian structure.
These forums are for Christians, and the faith groups which are part of Christian structure, and developed from a Christian structure. Messianic Judaism is outside of that structure and is attempting to operate within it. Messianic Judaism is not a faith group of Christianity. It may have (as you say) A spectrum, with identifiable differences, as well as the terminolgy which applies to those groups. But those groups are not being allowed to be here. At least not so far. It would be a far cry better to have those Leaders and their views for faith groups, than it is now. At least that would create a structure more workable within the framework of a christian forum faith group.