Icons and the last few years on CF

[Yahudim]

I am still angry Tish, about the whole icon thing and the 'add something "Messy" to your sig', thing. But I can't stay angry with you. One day you will have a grown child that will make descisions that cause you to angrily ask, Have you lost your mind? That's kind of how I feel about you. I love you like you were one of my own, but I think that you have made a horrible decision for all the right reasons. For that reason I am both proud of you for sticking to your guns and disappointed with your choice.

That said, I cannot disagree more strongly with your decision to let these people that believe and teach, "The Law... ...all of it has been invalidated. There is no commandment that has continued beyond the cross of Christ..." come here to debate and teach. Because they drank the kool-aid and have repeatedly demonstrated an almost limitless capacity for bold-faced duplicity and for taking a mile for every inch allowed.

I agree with Mishkan, that every topic should be on the table. I am not afraid of discussing anything. But this is different. This is giving the 'Torah, as authoritative instruction, is invalidated by the Law of Messiah' crowd, teaching privileges in a Torah Observant forum. If that isn't a recipe for disaster, I don't know what is.

The people that teach this doctrine are not supposed to do so here. But they do so anyway. They get reported. Nothing happens. Their post remains. They get called on it by the membership. They claim it as a right. We get you involved. You try to get them to stop. So they talk around it and link to other people that do teach it. They get called on it again, in open forum. They do it again and again. They ask loaded question. They quote other posts that haven't been reported or edited yet. The storm builds. Everyone gets angry. The forum message gets subverted another way. They keep winning battles because the aim is to interrupt and dilute the Torah positive message.

Given time and privilege, they will find more subtle ways of undermining the unique message of this membership. But you think they can still be trusted with our Torah positive message? Why? This isn't Bridge Builders. Its a Torah Observant forum. That should be the focus.

These brothers and sisters already have multiple venues on CF for their Dispensation of Grace, Law of Messiah, message. Let them fellowship here like everyone else that has that same message. But, why allow them teaching privileges here? This makes no sense.

Please forgive my angry words. As I get older, I like change less and less. All this tickling the dragon's tail, ticks me off to no end.

Your patience is commendable. Thank you for that. And I have empathy for your plight, trying to find a way to please everyone. But I have no sympathy for you ending up in the middle. That was your decision to compromise this forum's membership for the sake of peace. Look how well that worked out for Israel.

Still, I will play along. I believe in you and hope you will come around.

Blessings,
Phillip

 

[ChavaK]

Tish, I have pretty much decided to do little or no posting at the forum any more. But could not let Tal's comments go unchallenged. It's an offense for all you have done for this forum.
I don't have a problem with him stating overall what he stated, but things like this should not be posted. Especially since, I believe, one is not supposed to question or discuss a mod's actions.

Your patience is commendable. Thank you for that. And I have empathy for your plight, trying to find a way to please everyone. But I have no sympathy for you ending up in the middle. That was your decision to compromise this forum's membership for the sake of peace.


hope you will come around.



I am still angry Tish, about the whole icon thing and the 'add something "Messy" to your sig', thing. But I can't stay angry with you. One day you will have a grown child that will make descisions that cause you to angrily ask, Have you lost your mind? That's kind of how I feel about you.


That said, I cannot disagree more strongly with your decision to let these people that believe and teach, "The Law... ...all of it has been invalidated. There is no commandment that has continued beyond the cross of Christ..." come here to debate and teach.

Yes, these are taken out of context. If personal comments made about you, as stated above, were removed the rest of the post would be fine.

You have worked your tuchas off for this forum. You have given it love, fretted over, sweated over it, and you do not deserve what was said. I've been here seven or more years, and you were here before I came. You have spent countless hours working for the betterment of the forum. I applaud that and just wanted to say THANK YOU. Without you this forum simply would not exist.

 

[ContraMundum]

I am still angry Tish,

I think that's the real problem. Getting angry over nothing.

Let me put it in perspective for you. It's the internet. You don't live your life here, and what happens here doesn't rule your life. Why let it anger you?

So what if people disagree with you? Conversely, so what if others think you're wrong? So what if you think they are? Storm in a teacup, my friend.

 

[ContraMundum]

Everyone, please have a blessed and beautiful day and as we say in Lakota land, May y'all walk in beauty and in balance.

Wowahwa(Peace)

You confuse me, my friend. I appreciate your sentiments here, and it's great to get a blessing. I don't understand your mixing of Lakota native American ritual and Judaism though.

 

[dnc101]

You confuse me, my friend. I appreciate your sentiments here, and it's great to get a blessing. I don't understand your mixing of Lakota native American ritual and Judaism though.

LROL! So now we can argue about Native Americans and Judaism as well!

After we were married, my wife's family all came over to visit. We toured the region, and her father, a born researcher, probably learned more regional history in that one visit than I know even today. This was a constant source of amusement as well as angst for his daughters.

At one point we passed through a reservation, and stopped at a monument for tribal members killed in WWII. Lo and behold, while we were all talking and taking in the scenery, her father found three names on the monument whose religion was listed as Jewish. Being Jewish and mostly from the UK, they were mightily impressed by this (the English are fascinated by American "Indians"). That story has made it around the world now, from England to Israel to China and back to Canada and the US.

So start a thread- could be a valid topic for discussion ...

Dan (I have no idea how that is all relevant ) C

 

[dnc101]

Speaking of reports you all now have more reports that any other single forum

LOL, why doesn't that surprise me?

I for one have started using both my ignore and report buttons now; something I have never done on any forum before. Don't worry, if I did I told you about it- not hiding behind an anonymous button just avoiding the arguments that have recently plagued us.

It is sad that there are those who for whatever reason think it their duty to come here and correct us or disrupt our forum and ruin fellowship. Makes it hard on everyone, especially the moderators.

But, I guess all we can do is move forward and keep reporting. Hey, we're outscoring the mainstream folks- good job everyone!

Dan C

 

[dodari]

You confuse me, my friend. I appreciate your sentiments here, and it's great to get a blessing. I don't understand your mixing of Lakota native American ritual and Judaism though.

An enigma.

One is born into it.

Seriously!

Of course you really don't know what we do up here and that is best for you. All you can really do is imagine. I'd like to keep it that way.

 

[dnc101]

Tish, I have pretty much decided to do little or no posting at the forum any more.

Sorry to hear this, but understandable. I personally value the input of Jewish posters here, and I'm thankful that you are here at all.

I'd like to see the rules officially relaxed in regards to Jewish posters answering questions. That isn't teaching, it is a courtesy afforded us by you. So hang in there.

The only constant in human relations is change, and that always comes through conflict. Maybe there will be some adjustments made after this; who knows. If not, well, I think most here do appreciate you and others who've contributed to our understanding. Thanks.

Dan C

 

[Yahudim]

To Tish: You are a blessing. Thank you for all you do.

To everyone: The issue has always been about people teaching against Gentiles keeping Torah. I will always be against that. It makes me angry when they are given the opportunity. Get over it.

To Chava: You are an asset to everyone here. You should not leave.

That's all I can manage from this phone.

 

[Philothei]

Think about what you just said here

This is a torah observant forum and you comment about how some have family members who eat pork and you don't condemn them

That part is fine but leave it at that don't spout off after that why is because you have been taught gentiles CAN eat pork

It should be obvious that you need to hold your tongue at that point

This is not the only forum that "issues" that are contraversial come into play. One has to learn like Tishri said to "hold one's tongue". I see lots of wrong "faith judgment" in OBOB about EO theology ....I just refrain from going in to their "turf" to "set it right". I know there might be posts that missrepresent one or another faith...But we would have to learn to hold our tongue...Just reinforcing here what Tishri is saying...I cannot go into a Protestant Congregation and "teach them" the EO view of the Eucharist we have GT for that....purpose.... We can ask questions bout MJ or EO or Torah observance but we cannot debate that observance... There has to be a certain place for it.

 

[Avodat]

This is not the only forum that "issues" that are contraversial come into play. One has to learn like Tishri said to "hold one's tongue". I see lots of wrong "faith judgment" in OBOB about EO theology ....I just refrain from going in to their "turf" to "set it right". I know there might be posts that missrepresent one or another faith...But we would have to learn to hold our tongue...Just reinforcing here what Tishri is saying...I cannot go into a Protestant Congregation and "teach them" the EO view of the Eucharist we have GT for that....purpose.... We can ask questions bout MJ or EO or Torah observance but we cannot debate that observance... There has to be a certain place for it.

With respect, it is not simply a matter of denominational theology or doctrine - it is much more fundamental than that - it is about basic obedience to the Word of Scripture. I'm sure you would agree that, even in the fora you mention, the fundamentals of the Christian faith, if denied, would be met with a very clear correction; visitors or Members are most unlikely to be allowed a free for all on what is acceptable by way of belief. Would you not point people to the Nicene Creed in the rules and insist that that is the truth that must be upheld?

 

[Philothei]

I am offering a prayer for this forum...
Lord Jesus Christ the healer of our souls and bodies please come and abide in all of us present in this forum and give us the strength the courage and the wisdom to see this through! Gather us all as your children to unity, love, compassion and protect us under your loving wings! Yes Lord we are hoping from you to bring down through Your Holy Spirit...peace, wisdom, joy, charity. Instill in us a peaceful and loving heart and teach us to do Your will always and for ever to the ages of ages Amen!

 

[Philothei]

With respect, it is not simply a matter of denominational theology or doctrine - it is much more fundamental than that - it is about basic obedience to the Word of Scripture. I'm sure you would agree that, even in the fora you mention, the fundamentals of the Christian faith, if denied, would be met with a very clear correction; visitors or Members are most unlikely to be allowed a free for all on what is acceptable by way of belief. Would you not point people to the Nicene Creed in the rules and insist that that is the truth that must be upheld?

I am talking about the specific "dogma" that RCC or EO hold respectively. The Nicene Creed sometimes is discussed in such forums too... We have all kinds of posters who post in Congregation Forums. if they come to 'debate" it is a different issue. Non-Christians or UT Christians can participate in the congregation forums. They cannot go into Theology and Edification forums though they are not allowed except the unorthodox Christians can go into the Unorthodox forum and debate (but not promote) Hope that helps.

 

[Avodat]

I am talking about the specific "dogma" that RCC or EO hold respectively. The Nicene Creed sometimes is discussed in such forums too... We have all kinds of posters who post in Congregation Forums. if they come to 'debate" it is a different issue. Non-Christians or UT Christians can participate in the congregation forums. They cannot go into Theology and Edification forums though they are not allowed except the unorthodox Christians can go into the Unorthodox forum and debate (but not promote) Hope that helps.

Not really, but thanks for trying.

 

[dnc101]

I am offering a prayer for this forum...

And behold, He answered saying, "Did I not give you the 'report' button?"

Not to belabor the point (but you know I'm gonna ), the problem most are getting at is that there are several posters here, some with Messianic icons and some with others, who regularly teach against the tenets of MJ and in violation of the SoP. I don't know how many reports were made, but I have seen them brought to task by some of the senior posters here. The response is generally to argue further and blame the MJ people here for any and every-thing.

The problem is compounded because modern MJ is still a relatively new and growing belief system to most of us. We come here to learn, and instead are treated to a barrage of the same mainstream dogma we discarded as false when we started looking for an alternative. And make no mistake, this last mass incursion was militant as well as demonically inspired! The truth of this is evident in both the scope and the results.

Note I am not accusing anyone of being possessed or anything like it. However, none of us is immune to satanic influence. I was called to account for a response here by some senior members once myself. The difference is I admitted my fault in reacting too harshly, apologized, and we all got on with business. This is not the case with posters who come to teach against us, accuse, disrupt and prevent both fellowship and learning.

I'm using the report button now. The rest is up to staff.

Apreciate that you all have gotten involved, at least.

Dan C

edit: oh, and I admit, I don't know much about EO. Thanks for not hammering me when I assumed your views on the Eucharist are the same as RC!

 

[Tishri1]

You know, that is what was said for centuries to Jew's as well, and it just wasn't true was it?
And your previous post above was really nice.

Posted by Tishri
I know Noachides are not illegitimate believers in Christ. No matter how many would say otherwise. I guess Noachides do not hurt over it either!
Shalom Tishri.

Noahide was invented by rabbinic Judaism to control Gentiles thru a co op government( meaning they are really in charge behind the scenes)

But if you believe in Jesus you cannot be a noahide
That is what they say

 

[Tishri1]

I know you will always love me gramps
Dont worry we will work this out

What do you all think of keeping this main forum fellowship only?

Its kinda gotten away from that over the year

I am still angry Tish, about the whole icon thing and the 'add something "Messy" to your sig', thing. But I can't stay angry with you. One day you will have a grown child that will make descisions that cause you to angrily ask, Have you lost your mind? That's kind of how I feel about you. I love you like you were one of my own, but I think that you have made a horrible decision for all the right reasons. For that reason I am both proud of you for sticking to your guns and disappointed with your choice.

That said, I cannot disagree more strongly with your decision to let these people that believe and teach, "The Law... ...all of it has been invalidated. There is no commandment that has continued beyond the cross of Christ..." come here to debate and teach. Because they drank the kool-aid and have repeatedly demonstrated an almost limitless capacity for bold-faced duplicity and for taking a mile for every inch allowed.

I agree with Mishkan, that every topic should be on the table. I am not afraid of discussing anything. But this is different. This is giving the 'Torah, as authoritative instruction, is invalidated by the Law of Messiah' crowd, teaching privileges in a Torah Observant forum. If that isn't a recipe for disaster, I don't know what is.

The people that teach this doctrine are not supposed to do so here. But they do so anyway. They get reported. Nothing happens. Their post remains. They get called on it by the membership. They claim it as a right. We get you involved. You try to get them to stop. So they talk around it and link to other people that do teach it. They get called on it again, in open forum. They do it again and again. They ask loaded question. They quote other posts that haven't been reported or edited yet. The storm builds. Everyone gets angry. The forum message gets subverted another way. They keep winning battles because the aim is to interrupt and dilute the Torah positive message.

Given time and privilege, they will find more subtle ways of undermining the unique message of this membership. But you think they can still be trusted with our Torah positive message? Why? This isn't Bridge Builders. Its a Torah Observant forum. That should be the focus.

These brothers and sisters already have multiple venues on CF for their Dispensation of Grace, Law of Messiah, message. Let them fellowship here like everyone else that has that same message. But, why allow them teaching privileges here? This makes no sense.

Please forgive my angry words. As I get older, I like change less and less. All this tickling the dragon's tail, ticks me off to no end.

Your patience is commendable. Thank you for that. And I have empathy for your plight, trying to find a way to please everyone. But I have no sympathy for you ending up in the middle. That was your decision to compromise this forum's membership for the sake of peace. Look how well that worked out for Israel.

Still, I will play along. I believe in you and hope you will come around.

Blessings,
Phillip

 

[Tishri1]

Thank you I'm kinda chocked up

I do feel like this place is like no other and only want the best for MJ

Also thanks to Avodat and Mark, and dodari

Tal means well, this is huge though for me not to take any side. It might just backfire I know but it also might make MJ the one place where all Torah teaching has only one restriction....It has to be positive.

Tish, I have pretty much decided to do little or no posting at the forum any more. But could not let Tal's comments go unchallenged. It's an offense for all you have done for this forum.
I don't have a problem with him stating overall what he stated, but things like this should not be posted. Especially since, I believe, one is not supposed to question or discuss a mod's actions.

Yes, these are taken out of context. If personal comments made about you, as stated above, were removed the rest of the post would be fine.

You have worked your tuchas off for this forum. You have given it love, fretted over, sweated over it, and you do not deserve what was said. I've been here seven or more years, and you were here before I came. You have spent countless hours working for the betterment of the forum. I applaud that and just wanted to say THANK YOU. Without you this forum simply would not exist.

 

[annier]

Noahide was invented by rabbinic Judaism to control Gentiles thru a co op government( meaning they are really in charge behind the scenes)

Tishri, this is just strange to me. It sounds like other accusations made against Jews.

But if you believe in Jesus you cannot be a noahide

I am both Tishri.
Despite you claiming I am illegitimate.

 

[Yahudim]

I agree, even if I have chosen the back end of the horses costume. But it does put me in a unique position to follow your lead. I'll try not to be overly critical. No promises.

Fellowship only forum? I dunno Tish. There are so many seekers that come here for clarification of Torah passages from an observant Messianic JUDAISM perspective. They want the short answer. What they end up in, is a crossfire over Christian dogma sprinkled with the occasional Hebrew word or phrase. I think that they should be given the straight scoop without the, "OK, but we can't talk about that here" routine.

What we need is a short, strong, to the point, all caps, "READ THIS BEFORE YOU POST" sticky with links.

Again, you asked.

I know you will always love me gramps
Dont worry we will work this out

What do you all think of keeping this main forum fellowship only?

Its kinda gotten away from that over the year