Icons and the last few years on CF

[Tishri1]

Things are really not that difficult so long as we all give space to one another to serve the Lord where we're at - and not be quick to assume the worse of anyone we disagree with.

Words to live by

This is short simple and straight to the point and easy to read

 

[Tishri1]

I believe that loving your neighbor and forgiving and starting over should go beyond just topics here. We may not 'see' each other but one day we will. Do we want to open our arms for a hug or will we hang our heads in shame?

Amen

 

[Tishri1]

Gx2 quit making this hard on all of us

Its obvious that all other congregations outside MJ in this forum take a back seat

In fact we don't have any seat for them on this bus just as there is no seat available for MJs on any other congregational forum. That is just the point of the forum, a place for MJs to discuss what ails them

If what ails them is how no one else keeps kosher in Christianity than fine! Say that and hash it out !

If that upsets you as a church goer grow thicker skin

If your( a collective your) teaching on how all Christians are going to hell watch out cuz you wont last here long

I may be mama bear for MJ but I'm also mama bear for this site and that is disruptive and calling all here unsaved so don't go there in here you guys

But if your debating a christian theological point it is possible with out getting all fired up right

Don't post as to take your brother out at the knees ok

And here is a tip

Find out a particular denomination that believes or even started that teaching and instead if saying we hate christians that teach_____, say such and such denomination started teaching this Scripture this way and here is why its incorrect

Just saying....

I agree and thanks for pointing that out I will keep that in mind next time - as Bridge Builders is the most appropriate place to discuss issues pertaining to the Church (be it questions other Messianics and visitors raise )- and where things related to that should go with hashing them out

If I may ask, however, I am curious as to how the other comments preceding it were not seen as teaching or off topic to the main forum (here and here amongst others) - for a comment was made saying that NO Messianic congregations celebrate Eucharist (which isn't true) and others asked questions on it - with others responding and then the discussion ensued on a topic responded to...and I was wondering if it's only the response to a comment or the initial comments themselves which are off... although if including all of those as well, I understand.

Also, if I may say, I do think something should be suggested when it comes to MJ and the fact that it is connected to the Church/Christianity - thus making it an issue of naturally offending others in mainstream MJism (UMJC, MJAA, etc.) who work with the Church and take it serious when the main forum allows for teaching series giving misinformation on what MJism feels on a Church issue. Sincerely, since it's about pertaining to MJ and things that could naturally offend them too, I am wondering what to make of when other MJs have spoken on it in previous discussions.

If discussing the Church (in series) isn't allowed on the main forum - I'd think that applies for discussion at all points ....including comments which may illicit responses on it since any comment that's an absolute of how things are in the Church or in a MJ fellowship is Didactic in nature - it was meant to convey/teach on something. And when another Messianic discusses what they think is WRONG with the Church, does that also go into the Bridge Builder forum - or is it left? I do wonder since it often seems that there's no issue with other Messianics go far in giving teaching series (or comments meant to teach a point) when it comes to noting what they feel is wrong with the Church (i.e. claiming "Roman Catholicism is not of the Lord and nothing Catholic could ever be in a MJ fellowship!!!" or saying "The Church supports idolatry and here is why..") - but if someone seeks to address it directly - or correct a comment where someone took something wrongly that another Messianic said, it does seem that only then is it considered to be something that is a potential to offend.

Perhaps I'm misunderstanding...but why is not considered a matter of potential to offend when making comments about Church practice (like saying some things aren't practiced in MJ fellowships that are in Church even when they are )? Seriously, I am wondering how far does this go in the practical? Hope that makes sense...

 

[Tishri1]

Report it and send me the link

I try to read all the MJ reports but that one slipped by me there unless it wasn't reported?

Speaking of reports you all now have more reports that any other single forum

If you have reported the issue already dont keep reporting all posts about the same issue ok

 

[Tishri1]

Is that accepting disrespecting in our own home?

I was saying if there is a thread on kosher and some one points out his mom has no problem eating pork , and starts to explain why?..that is a problem

That person should have kept quiet

 

[Tishri1]

If followed on here doesn't that mean that people can come in here and say anything they like, and if we disagree we should simply not enter the thread to defend our faith?

Go back and read it again viz misunderstood me

 

[Tishri1]

It sure does and that stinks! And it's ridiculous to think that we would do such a thing! Not defend obeying Torah? Not defend obeying our Master? That idea doesn't go over well in a Torah-Observant forum at all! And it sure isn't how I operate. And it sure doesn't sound like the characters of those of you I've gotten to know over the past few years either. We speak out about such things. We don't just keep our mouths shut. That's preposturous!

Oh my goodness you guys are like a pack of wolves when you post against some one

Here is a great tip

Ask clarifying questions and refrain from attack mode till you get an answer

Thanks

Geese

 

[Tishri1]

We speak out about such things. We don't just keep our mouths shut

This kinda illustrates a huge problem in how to treat others in this place

Call out threads

Please after we are done refrain from call out threads or posts

I dont know how many reports i read where the person was mislabeled, misread and mishandled

Enduring character assassination that way sometimes they can never recover completely and that is a huge problem all over CF but MJ has it bad too

Ask clarifying questions and wait patiently for them to answer....please. Thank you

It sure does and that stinks! And it's ridiculous to think that we would do such a thing! Not defend obeying Torah? Not defend obeying our Master? That idea doesn't go over well in a Torah-Observant forum at all! And it sure isn't how I operate. And it sure doesn't sound like the characters of those of you I've gotten to know over the past few years either. We speak out about such things. We don't just keep our mouths shut. That's preposturous!

 

[Tishri1]

Tishri, will this finally start to be implemented here now?

It probably should

 

[Tishri1]

Exuse me he asked me for an example of what would be teaching from his church that would be deemed a RV and then in this very thread he comes out and answers his own question with a perfect example

This is exactly what we cannot have coming from members who do attend two congregations

He put the question to me as if he didnt know it was wrong to teach other christian doctrine here and thats pretty obvious. Then in my thread produced his own example to answer the question

So there you have it

I have to wonder why then has it been discussed by other members of this forum on both sides of this issue for years, with respect mostly, and now it is being leveled against just Gxg here? I see many members have talked about it openly, but now because G has commented to vis on the topic she brought up, it's a no go at all? Can't say i'm understanding the fairness in your response Tishri. There are many more violations in this thread for you to focus on than the one your accusing G of. Falsely might I add. He's not 'teaching' the eucharist, he was identifying that many in the Messianic world discuss it's relevancy, even many in this very thread, and in this very forum. But now G is the bad guy? I'm not buying it.

 

[Tishri1]

To be fair you still haven't reinforced in your siggy that you are also MJ , i pmed you about that earlier today. What is there now is not good enough

Although I appreciate the response as it concerns accuracy, I am not really concerned in regards to the comments made by the individual you responded to. One, I addressed the issue at hand (icons and who should be allowed to teach) at length prior to any remote tackling of the topic of Eucharist - and that was after someone else already chose to teach on the issue/subject. Zero mention (as with many things when it comes to being selective in application) was made on others who already chose to teach on the issue - and nothing was said to others bringing up the issue that they should've stayed on the topic at hand and made another thread on the matter when it came to them giving Didactic comments intended to teach on who was...and wasn't MJ based on a view of it they had.

If there cannot be consistency in argumentation, that will be relevant to what happens practically.

Two, on the claim of having no identifying icon so no one knows what team I'm apparently for, I addressed similar claims by the same individual when it came to repeating the same error elsewhere (as seen in #69 ) - concerning where I've always made clear throughout C,F my agreement to/relationship with Messianic Judaism while noting my relationship to Christianity - specifically Eastern Christianity when it comes to Oriential Orthodoxy/the work I do with others in that realm. This was noted years ago when I had a Messianic icon while spelling out in my "About Me" section my heart for OO Culture - and there are numerous threads made on the issue in CF where that was plain. ....but in April, I chose to switch to an OO Icon while keeping all the info in my "About Me" section the same: Still with the Messianic fellowship I go to and working with others in OO. And I noted in my signature where I'm with things.

This is nothing new - and as said before, there are others who've experienced the same. Daughter of Ararat (#5 /#27 /#85 ) is a prominent example - as she's Jewish and identifies as Messianic (more here, here, here, here, here, here, here and here) and has been involved in synagogue.....and she used to have a Messianic icon as well. However, she also goes to an Armenian Orthodox (Oriential Orthodox) church... and later switched icons to show the OO Side of her while still identifying as Messianic in her profile and her interests. Andd 9as shared in some of our conversations, "There is a cultural commonality and similarity of approach in the Orthodox and the Messianic Jewish (or sometimes in the MJ) that I feel like it expresses something important about who I am.... Both aspects reflect part of my faith and understanding of the world." I can relate to where she's at as I've been there for years (as it was when I had a Messianic icon) - for I work with others in OO and feel OO (Oriential Orthodoxy) reflects Jewish culture the best (IMHO) in regards to how it reflects a way of original understanding that had its Jewish roots and its Semitic culture as a basis for understanding the thought, vision, and the teachings of Jesus (or Yeshua as he was called in the Aramic and in His day) , I am glad for it ( #1 , #1 , #1 #3 ) even as I'm thankful for Messianic Jewish culture.


Other Messianic Jews and Non-Messianic Jewish unbelievers have already covered the issue for what it is when it comes to claims that are not even consistent with what has happened historically - and be it with ContraMundum (when he, as a Messianic Jew working with Messianic Jewish fellowships/teaching, had an Anglican Parish and had an Anglican icon to show his identification with the Church he most agreed with) ....... or Daughter of Ararat in her doing similar or several others who did the same....and were not questioned on allegiance (and they know where I come from as well in agreement with them), I don't see it being anything short of misrepresentation to try pushing the issue as if others haven't be honorable in showing where they stand.

We've already had other Messianics sharing where they to Church as well as their Messianic fellowship - and it didn't take looking to a Messianic icon in order to see where they shared on it, be it in postings or signature or in their "About Me" bios. And that goes for others who had a Messianic icon for some time but later switched. The only logical way to be consistent - if REALLY claiming it's somehow unfair" for others to do the same - is to address each/every person throughout history who does so. But selectively arguing here on the issue only shows BIAS ...and a willingness to practice partiality.

We already have it where others in having Non-Messianic icons are getting slammed EQUALLY with others - and that also goes for Non-believing Jews getting slammed for sharing even though they're not even believers in Yeshua, yet they contribute to discussion on Judaism/its multiple facets. The same issues they've raised are also what has been raised by others who ARE Messianic - identifying with the movement/working in it - and yet not seeking to have a Messianic icon since that's not the only way for identification.

 

[Tishri1]

Historically, as others have noted, it has ALREADY been brought up by nearly everyone complaining on it in the MJ forum at some point - be it in threads where they were asking QUESTIONS on it or threads where they shared their disagreements with it or engaged in debate with other Messianic Jews/Messianic Gentiles on it who did support it. Thus, it's inconsistent claiming that it has never been accepted within MJ culture and there is no logical (or credible) basis for trying to selectively switch in argumentation when it seems to suit the mood. If it is bad now to talk on it on the boards, it was bad THEN back in numerous documented times - and thus, everyone one has their hands guilty but crying out "innocent".

That'll never do.....nor is it something people concerned for Biblical observance of God's Torah should even be trying to bicker about since early Jewish believers in the 1st century were never against the concept of Eucharist (different from how many understand it today) - and many had to deal in their day with the reductionist practice of claiming communion was not connected with the seder elements (and forgetting that differences in practice do not equate to not being based in Torah/Historical Judaic practice). Communion, as it is, is another translation of the term "Eucharist" - and many go back/forth in the Jewish world with the terminology.

Where many sadly tried to radically transform the practice outside of its Jewish context to suit a theological agenda that was against the Torah, it's sadly the case today that many in the MJ Movement (just as with many in the Protestant Movement ) try to address that by reacting ...just like over-correcting with a car/going from one side of a ditch and into another off the road....and they end up divorcing themselves from how early Jewish believers saw the practice/Torah - making an creating a stance against Torah even as they claim they are trying to be against "anti-Torah" as they see it.

And sadly, it always seems to come down to the issue of people in the movement trying to separate from ANYTHING they see as Christian - and then going ultimately down the road of "You cannot be Messianic if you're a Christian" since they had a false view of what it meant to be Messianic...and forgetting that what Gentile Christians did with Real Presence/"Eucharist" (although not all, of course) was radically different in intent than how Jewish Christians saw things - and many NEVER had a mindset of throwing off the elements of the Seder or felt that the ceremony going along with it which developed later was against Jewish practice. So long as that is forgotten, people will always think they're fighting for one thing when in reality they're promoting the very thing they're against.


It's ironic....but that happens often with many things in the MJ movement - and many in the MJ Movement at large have spoken on it.

 

[Tishri1]

Sorry to disappoint you but MJAA and UMJC can divide the world wide body of MJ believers but for the sake of all who love the Lord and his Torah we chose to represent as many of these believers as we can

Its simple really love for Torah study and practice as it applies to your life and love for Jewish customs and festivals

Ya know, Does anyone here, and I mean anyone, have any official capacity to be speaking for the Messianic people?
Just think about the other faith groups here. Somebody or somebodies were they whom were in a position to have authority to both form and define what that group believed, and who they were and what they are.
But would it be allowed for those that disagreed with some in that formed the faith group to come into it, and steal their title all together as a faith group?
Nor do they appear to officially speak for the MJAA, were those which coined the name change from Hebrew Christianity, to Messianic Judaism. It seems to me that unless someone has an official position within that faith group to speak for them, this site would be best, to defer to their views as best as possible, and their arms (affiliates) which many in here openly mock as abc groups.
The current mentality now present would be equal to Catholics opposed to the pope, and the college of bishops, coming in and writing an op for the forum which allowed them to militate against that institution. Why is this allowed to be happening here?

 

[Tishri1]

There are other places to talk on the Eucharist as it relates to Messianic Jewish culture - but so long as one keeps bringing it up with false accusations, it will be an issue that has to be squared with,

No it doesnt!

Falsehood - and as said before, it is ignorant of history to claim as you did - and illustrates further WHY things were addressed earlier in #66 (as well as previously in #51 #49, #46 ) when you made inaccurate comments.

There are other places to talk on the Eucharist as it relates to Messianic Jewish culture - but so long as one keeps bringing it up with false accusations, it will be an issue that has to be squared with, seeing that it was never the case that Eucharist was EVER about transubstantiation as the sole definition to begin with . The concept of Real Presence (when it comes to Eucharist ) is different from transubstantiation (since the view with Real Presence is that Christ is LITERALLY present in a mysterious/symbolic way even though it's not like his Body is physically there ) - just as consubstantiation differs from transubstantiation. This is a basic point of understanding in the world of Christendom - and this is something many Messianic Jews have long noted when people give inaccurate claims in the name of "Well the Catholics teach this so you must mean this as well!!!!" that are already divorced from history - for Messianic Jews as a WHOLE hold to the view of Eucharist which is based on Real Presence...as do many others in the Protestant world.


Thus, what you said isn't even representative of what Messianic Jews believe as a whole when it comes to the concept of Eucharist (as well as offensive to them when putting words in the mouths of others) - and nothing you said deals at any point with the variation they hold to...although what it is symbolic of is the typical Fundamentalist Evangelical perspective that doesn't deal well with categories/context. And to promote it further is blantant falsehood - so best to stop while you're ahead in the misrepresentations of what Messianics believe.

And prayerfully, things can remain ON topic as was requested..

 

[Tishri1]

Ok i am finally caught up

As you can see both sides are hot mad at me

Thats fine it happens

I am going to do the best i can for the thousands of MJs represented across the globe not one faction or another


Be prayerfully patient with us

 

[Tishri1]

Opening for final comments but would also like to open the thread for those who feel called to pray now for this place

 

[Avodat]

PTL for your patience with us, motley crew that we are!

 

[annier]

Noachides don't believe in Yeshua

You know, that is what was said for centuries to Jew's as well, and it just wasn't true was it?
And your previous post above was really nice.

Posted by Tishri

It hurts to be called illegitimate
It hurts when Jews say it to Jewish MJs. It hurts when Jewish MJs say it to Gentile MJs. It hurts when Gentile MJs say it to church going MJs

No one likes to be told they are illegitimate and don't belong when in their heart they know they do

I know Noachides are not illegitimate believers in Christ. No matter how many would say otherwise. I guess Noachides do not hurt over it either!
Shalom Tishri.

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

Hi everyone.

I really feel for the members of this forum. For me, looking in from the outside, I'm reminded of our Lord's disciples in Mark Chapter 9, verses 33-50, but in particular 33-35:

Mark 9:33-35

New King James Version (NKJV)

Who Is the Greatest?

33 Then He came to Capernaum. And when He was in the house He asked them, “What was it you disputed among yourselves on the road?” 34 But they kept silent, for on the road they had disputed among themselves who would be the greatest. 35 And He sat down, called the twelve, and said to them, “If anyone desires to be first, he shall be last of all and servant of all.”

I pray that through humility, we can see the 'greatness' in all who desire to fellowship here, and that everyone can grow and learn.

 

[dodari]

PTL for your patience with us, motley crew that we are!

Amen to that.

Thanks Tish, it had to be hard, long, heart rending work to objectively point out the noted excerpts that needed to be pointed out. May we all take heed. May we take note of those points referenced, more often than not, lest we do the same. None of us are perfect, none of us should seek to 'Lord it over others'.

Everyone, please have a blessed and beautiful day and as we say in Lakota land, May y'all walk in beauty and in balance.

Wowahwa(Peace)