Icons and the last few years on CF

[Shimshon]

They happen way too often enough...in addition to raving on anyone being not for Torah Observance when it comes to not having a ONE-Law perspective of Torah Observance that was never the main stance of MOST Messianic Jewish fellowships in reality. Contra's a godsend many times.

Yes agreed. So many here speak with a forked tongue, accepting only those who agree with them, and stab others in the back when they do not, all in the name of Torah observance and being a True Jew. Quite pathetic, and quite the tool to mature a real follower of Messiah. So many chances to fulfill the commandments of Messiah. I wonder if they understand they are being used by God in this way?

 

[Shimshon]

important info on the MJ forum
This main MJ forum is used primarily for fellowship and for information to those new to or inquiring about MJ only.

All discussions on Torah observance should be made or moved to the Everything Torah subforum.

I haven't always done the best job of taking certain discussions to the sub-forums as Tishri requested - and the same goes for nearly all others as well. It's something we all have to work on. The basics on taking certain topics to the sub-forums as the rules requested have not been implemented by many complaining - and yet focus goes on something Tish did that was "ad-hoc" for not being noted repeatedly? That isn't consistent - for the real issue is where there has not been abiding by the rules as they are.

Tishri, will this finally start to be implemented here now?

 

[Avodat]

Love that Collie, we have one here, we have a dozen or so goats.

Wonder how'd he do herding cats, on this forum?

Seems like it is easier for the Shepherd Collie to herd Sheep than it is for him/her to herd Goats. S'pose there's a parallel to this local situation?

Hmmmmmmm.

You're getting there - the ones that (purposely?) mis-read what has actually been written, and those that follow them, like sheep to the shearer. Myopia is curable, I understand.

 

[dodari]

You're getting there - the ones that (purposely?) mis-read what has actually been written, and those that follow them, like sheep to the shearer. Myopia is curable, I understand.

Mat 25:32And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd dividethhissheep from the goats:
Mat 25:33And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.

Perhaps a marked immutable division should be made, clearly and completely defined, no more mickey mouse loosie goosie.

 

[Gxg (G²)]

Yes agreed. So many here speak with a forked tongue, accepting only those who agree with them, and stab others in the back when they do not, all in the name of Torah observance and being a True Jew.

Well, a lot of it is interesting to consider when it comes to the ways people appeal to rules to exclude others - but then ignore them when others included in it are ones they don't like.

I'm reminded of the hassle one poster (pat34lee ) received over it due to him supporting a strain of Two-House as a Messianic Gentile believer - if you recall the thread entitled Identity Chrisis: Slander. It was amazing how the poster was saying one thing (well known for being passionate for observing God's Law - knowing it's not for salvation but is still Holy/for sanctification and living life in MJish culture) - and yet it was taken wrongly at multiple points simply because he believed that there was connection between Gentiles and Israel.

People spoke outside both sides of the mouth on the issue...for some accused him of "anti-Semitism" and trying to "replace the Jewish people" when he never supported that - and yet there was also defense when others challenged them that they already supported "replacing the Jewish people" every time they (in advocating a One Law stance of observance) claimed Jews had to deem all Gentles as Jews/accept them because their interpretation of God's Body being one led them to assume all points within the Torah showed Gentiles/the nations being seen the same as the Hebrews.

There was simultaneous appeal to MJism in the mainstream when claiming "Messianic Judaism has NEVER accepted Two House" - and some even claiming others who were Two House should not be allowed on the forums on that basis - and yet appeal was ALSO ignored when it came to ignoring Mainstream MJism when it came to claiming that historical addressment of Torah/showing where Jews and Gentiles varied at certain points was a matter of seeking to be "Torah Observant" since the mainstream Messianic Judaism camp had long disagreed with that view since the beginning of the movement - in addition to what the early body of believers stood for in the 1st century. Of course they (mainstream Messianic Judaism) didn't have the stance that Torah was not meant for the nations since Torah ADDRESSED the nations and Gentiles were given freedom to seek the Lord

Isaiah 56:5-7/ Isaiah 56
For this is what the Lord says:
“To the eunuchs who keep my Sabbaths,
who choose what pleases me and hold fast to my covenant— 5 to them I will give within my temple and its walls a memorial and a name better than sons and daughters; I will give them an everlasting name that will not be cut off. 6 And foreigners who bind themselves to the Lord
to serve him, to love the name of the Lord,
and to worship him, all who keep the Sabbath without desecrating it and who hold fast to my covenant—
7 these I will bring to my holy mountain
and give them joy in my house of prayer.
Their burnt offerings and sacrifices
will be accepted on my altar;
for my house will be called
a house of prayer for all nations.”

​

Obviously, for every person talking on "You dare say there are points Gentiles and Jews differ!!!", there needs to be consistency in both keeping mind past discussions - and understanding the bottom line fact that the 1st century church understood this since they didn't push for Gentiles to be CIRCUMCISED - but sadly, some in the name of Torah Observance actually advocate that.....and ironically, those who don't do so show by action that they already believe that being Torah Observant has limits in how far one goes - one of the biggest things discussed within the Messianic Jewish movement today ..and something PAUL noted directly (if wanting to honor scripture/Biblical authority) when he spoke on it in 1 Corinthians 7:17-23 with remaining as you were when you were called. Paul did not teach "Anti-Torah" in his mindsets or lifestyles when he spoke in support of the Torah, observance and noting how that plays out - and more on this was discussed before in (#25 , #75 #76 #77).

As it concerns the reality of Torah being for the Nations (in support of what pat noted when saying Gentiles were connected to it), more was shared in threads such as Identity Chrisis: Slander (#11 -, #99 , #146 #267 #276 #279 ) - and it was said even by people claiming that Gentiles are to be treated as Jews (when it comes to observation) that the individual advocating for Two-House was advocating something that was a matter of "playing Jewish" .....ironic in light of what many said to them.

But no matter how many times an issue was addressed, it seemed to often be the case that the terms of argument kept getting switched every time (equivocation).

For the believer (pat) who supported Two-House and did a good job of making his case that it was wrong for others to reject him for his views (based on what view in MJism is dominant ) since many of theirs were not either, I applauded him for it alongside others....and was saddened that the rules for not judging others in observance (or claiming they were "lesser Messianic Jews/Gentiles" for disagreeing) were ignored. The same thing went for others with the continual rant that being a Hebrew Christian was different than being a Messianic Jew or Messianic Gentile

But wit the Two House Messianics, again, I find it highly ironic what occurred with One Law groups in regards to Two-House - for there was speaking of the need for them to not be defined by the MJAA in order to be acceptable as a form of Messianic Judaism (with Messianic Gentiles being the most vocal on it) - and yet they went from saying "Messianic Judaism evolves and doesn't have to look the same as it did decades ago" (when defending their stances) to saying "Those in Two House are all AGAINST The Jewish people/trying to replace them as Gentiles!!!!".....aggressively being against stances they disagreed since it challenged their platform of prominence - and many Two House groups had to seek to address the issue (like John McKee) by noting where a stance used to encourage one group in their development was denied for others disagreeing with that group.

We cannot have standards which tend to shift every time we encounter someone or a group we don't like - and treat them in ways we ourselves don't wish to be treated/have vocalized to others in times past.

 

[Gxg (G²)]

Ditto

 

[Shimshon]

Well, a lot of it is interesting to consider when it comes to the ways people appeal to rules to exclude others - but then ignore them when others included in it or ones they don't like.

I'm reminded of the hassle one poster (pat34lee ) received over it due to him supporting a strain of Two-House as a Messianic Gentile believer - if you recall the thread entitled Identity Chrisis: Slander. It was amazing how the poster was saying one thing (well known for being passionate for observing God's Law - knowing it's not for salvation but is still Holy/for sanctification and living life in MJish culture) - and yet it was taken wrongly at multiple points simply because he believed that there was connection between Gentiles and Israel.

People spoke outside both sides of the mouth on the issue...for some accused him of "anti-Semitism" and trying to "replace the Jewish people" when he never supported that - and yet there was also defense when others challenged them that they already supported "replacing the Jewish people" every time they (in advocating a One Law stance of observance) claimed Jews had to deem all Gentles as Jews/accept them because their interpretation of God's Body being one led them to assume all points within the Torah showed Gentiles/the nations being seen the same as the Hebrews.

There was simultaneous appeal to MJism in the mainstream when claiming "Messianic Judaism has NEVER accepted Two House" - and some even claiming others who were Two House should not be allowed on the forums on that basis - and yet appeal was ALSO ignored when it came to ignoring Mainstream MJism when it came to claiming that historical addressment of Torah/showing where Jews and Gentiles varied at certain points was a matter of seeking to be "Torah Observant" since the mainstream Messianic Judaism camp had long disagreed with that view since the beginning of the movement - in addition to what the early body of believers stood for in the 1st century. Of course they (mainstream Messianic Judaism) didn't have the stance that Torah was not meant for the nations since Torah ADDRESSED the nations and Gentiles were given freedom to seek the Lord

Isaiah 56:5-7/ Isaiah 56
For this is what the Lord says:
“To the eunuchs who keep my Sabbaths,
who choose what pleases me and hold fast to my covenant— 5 to them I will give within my temple and its walls a memorial and a name better than sons and daughters; I will give them an everlasting name that will not be cut off. 6 And foreigners who bind themselves to the Lord
to serve him, to love the name of the Lord,
and to worship him, all who keep the Sabbath without desecrating it and who hold fast to my covenant—
7 these I will bring to my holy mountain
and give them joy in my house of prayer.
Their burnt offerings and sacrifices
will be accepted on my altar;
for my house will be called
a house of prayer for all nations.”

​

More was shared in threads such as Identity Chrisis: Slander (#11 -, #99 , #146 #267 #276 #279 ) - and it was said even by people claiming that Gentiles are to be treated as Jews (when it comes to observation) that the individual advocating for Two-House was advocating something that was a matter of "playing Jewish" .....ironic in light of what many said to them.

But no matter how many times an issue was addressed, it seemed to often be the case that the terms of argument kept getting switched every time (equivocation).

For the believer (pat) who supported Two-House and did a good job of making his case that it was wrong for others to reject him for his views (based on what view in MJism is dominant ) since many of theirs were not either, I applauded him for it alongside others....and was saddened that the rules for not judging others in observance (or claiming they were "lesser Messianic Jews/Gentiles" for disagreeing) were ignored. The same thing went for others with the continual rant that being a Hebrew Christian was different than being a Messianic Jew or Messianic Gentile

Yes, that was very sickening to see that happen to pat. My heart went out for him too. I notice a pattern here with the orthodox Messianic group, that they all have a 'we are right you are wrong' attitude. Their whole arguement, every arguement seems to be the existing community is wrong, both Jews and Christians, but we are right and here to set you straight. Not one seems to present their life as an example and loves 'all' others. Every one seems to present their theology as an example and levels hateful things to those on the opposing side. "your not really a Jew, your ONLY a Christian" I agree with what was said before, that when they do this they prove they don't really understand Torah or Messiah at all. They are proved by their own words to be rebels against the masses with the sole intent to subvert the existing community to their 'neo' Messianic theology. They don't seem to hold the message of Messiah at all. They surely do not display any fruits of the Spirit I can recognize.

 

[Chaplain David]

Chaplain's Advice​

I believe it was last year when we discussed how "I statements" rather than "you statements" were the most appropriate way to post. It still is true and especially now, when there is a good amount of conflict, "I statements" make our posts less likely to be flaming and more like sharing.

Also, talking about others in the forum in disparaging ways does not help anything. What does help, and has always helped, is treating everyone with the love Jesus Christ teaches us.

Let's proceed in Christ, as He would have us behave, and as He would have us treat each other, loving one another, as He loves us.

Shalom

 

[Gxg (G²)]

Yes, that was very sickening to see that happen to pat. My heart went out for him too. I notice a pattern here with the orthodox Messianic group, that they all have a 'we are right you are wrong' attitude. Their whole arguement, every arguement seems to be the existing community is wrong, both Jews and Christians, but we are right and here to set you straight. Not one seems to present their life as an example and loves 'all' others. Every one seems to present their theology as an example and levels hateful things to those on the opposing side. "your not really a Jew, your ONLY a Christian" I agree with what was said before, that when they do this they prove they don't really understand Torah or Messiah at all. .

Personally, I find it very sad when it seems that there's so much talk over the issue of Torah (even when its noted others wish to walk according to it) - and yet the MAIN THING which should be central in our lives is ignored....the thing the SoP discusses as what we believe:

*We believe it is the calling of all believers to share the "Good News" of the coming Kingdom and to live a life transformed by the Spirit of God following our Lord's example of love toward God, and all mankind.


​

Love toward God - AND ALL Mankind - and following His example, for Jew and Gentile alike.

Seriously, at what point did it become LESS of an issue to promote the spreading/preaching of the Gospels as what's central on forums designed for believers - and more focus on trying to make boxes (often based on personal preference) on who is ..or isn't "Torah Observant" enough - and then have those categories shift every time we run into situations where consistency doesn't occur because it'd touch preference?


To me, it's ironic since there is claim that people object when others try and tell them not to observe His instruction - but the reality of the matter is that they already tell others the SAME THING when it comes to anything they disagree with....ignoring the fact that others look at them and feel that they are being told to not observe God's instructions when always being hounded for not being as "observant" as another claims.

It matters little in the long run since accusation and verification are not the same - and as one who is a Messianic Gentile who believes Torah speaks for the nations often (and Gentiles), it's just silly whenever others try to claim people are either "not for Torah Observant Messianic living" - or claim that others are just "Hebrew Christians" (as if that holds any water since the early body of believers in Antioch and elsewhere in Paul's day had no problems being deemed as such) - or assume that others don't love the Jewish people because they don't agree (despite where observant Jews work with Messianic Jews others disagree with all the time in their fellowships and have never made outlandish claims like "They're just Hebrew Christians rather than Messianic Jews" whenever hearing of Messianic Gentiles making them ).

Others who don't have an ax to grind - as it concerns Christianity/anything connected to it - don't have time to complain since their focus is the Body of Christ and unity with the saints. They don't have time to try/always claim someone isn't "Messianic" since they know they must face Yeshua one day themselves - and understand the same measure they judge with will be measured back to them.......and don't care to use inconsistent measures of judging in the first place when the Lord sees the Heart.

And they don't have time for the switching of evaluations (politics) when it comes to other Messianics they disagree with - for it's beneath them to do so. They know what it means to walk in grace/honor the Lord by letting HIM be the judge - and simply seeking to walk out their own salvation with fear/trembling ( Philippians 2:11-13 /Philippians 2 ) since God judges by PERFECTION - and no one here is perfect, including in motives or thoughts ( #248 ).

When those things are kept in mind, you don't have time to worry on certain issues - like asking "Do you observe in the same way I Observe?" or "Why are you Jewish and going to Church - do you identify as a Messianic first or a Christian?!!!? How can you say you're truly a Messianic Jew?" (which is a moot question since being Messianic Jewish/Christian are BOTH the same, Biblically and historically) ........or, as happened with patlee, asking "How can you claim the majority of lost tribes went to the Gentile nations? That's not Messianic Jewish as I understand it!!!" -

For when it comes to the Kingdom of God, what matters is "Are you a DISCIPLE and FOLLOWER of the WAY?!!!" - and the focus is on salvation being preached for others in the person of the Messiah and seeking to have that as a focus.

Our focus needs to be on the GOSPEL and the Kingdom - the entire spirit behind what the SoP was meant to be about.....not allowance for the same things that believers in the 1st century church had to deal with when camp battles occurred amongst one another (on Gentile believers) and people lost sight of what it meant to promote the sacrifice of Messiah and the Spirit of God ABOVE all else.

If we're for Yeshua and spreading His Gospel, then that should be what unifies....and anyone against that may not truly be as observant of Torah as they claim while looking down on others, IMHO.

 

[Gxg (G²)]

Yes, that was very sickening to see that happen to pat. My heart went out for him too. I notice a pattern here with the orthodox Messianic group, that they all have a 'we are right you are wrong' attitude. Their whole arguement, every arguement seems to be the existing community is wrong, both Jews and Christians, but we are right and here to set you straight. Not one seems to present their life as an example and loves 'all' others..

I'd think that this applies, of course, to everyone present....for we've all fallen into this at one point or another.

For there are others who may not have a perspective of "One Law" observation that feels that they should have their own boundaries/level of observance respected - and yet they can have the same mindset of "I'm right, you're wrong!!" when it comes to someone who is Two-House leaning....and stereotyping them even when they didn't say certain things. The same can apply to making wide-sweeping claims like "All One Law people are like this!!!" or "All Two-House people are like this!!!" in the negative when there are variations within those camps as well - with some differing in how they define "One Law" in comparison to another when one side feels being under the same Law means being under Gods' Universal Instructions for all time (including where differences are noted/commanded by the Lord) whereas others feel it means Jews/Gentiles were always meant to look alike at all points (and thus ignoring where differences occurred ). The person without a One Law view could easily do damage when not being gracious in their comments...

And someone from Two-House who wishes to be respected/encountered graciously may end up not walking in love if they encounter someone from a strain of Messianic Judaism like MJAA or UMJC - or a Messianic believer working with Churches - when they claim that no one could be Messianic Jewish in lifestyle if they attended Churches/noted appreciation for them.

Likewise, someone who is a Messianic working with Churches could feel that others hound them for being "Non-Observant" (untrue) simply because of pre-existing views/inaccurate analysis that leads to others assuming no one in Church could ever be concerned with living out Torah (as goes the claims that "Christian theology/churches are anti-Semitic in their core!!! or claiming that "The Church oppressed the Jewish people - so you're responsible for that like they are in helping them - we in the Messianic world are the answer!!!", etc.) ..

And yet the Messianic working with Churches could do damage to another when that Messianic claims that another Messianic Gentile is foolish for wanting to be circumcised like the Hebrews - claiming they're trying to be "saved by the Law" when the Messianic Gentile wanting circumcision is sincerely doing so out of conviction that the Lord led him to be circumcised. For as another said best long ago, "'Gentiles who are called to be part of the Messianic Jewish community are worthy of particular honor ... because they have voluntarily taken on a relationship to Torah out of a love for the God and people of Israel.' ( #170 )


If a Gentile felt led to be circumcised as they saw in the Torah, debating the necessity of it is one thing - but saying "You are NOT allowed to do that!!!" and saying God condemns them for it is another...............and the same goes in reverse when others differ in observance but claim others are not truly "observing" because they do not look the same. As noted before in previous discussion when some of the same things were discussed (#200 #206 #282 #50 #), if some one self Identifies as a Grace Only Christian (i.e. antinomian, against anything pertaining to OT, thinking there are no rules or "grace equals license to sin", that's one thing - but it's entirely another when folks go about labeling MJ's who are not as Torah Observant as "grace only Christians" as a way to belittle them - and that has been asked to stop since, as we all know, in MJ there are all levels of Torah Observance.

We are all in need of God's grace and loving one another - as well as being loved and shown grace. When that has been in practice, there have been times of peace, mutual dialogue and learning - but when that's lost, that's when things go awry.

James 3:12/James 3:3
12 Can a fig tree, my brethren, bear olives, or a grapevine bear figs? Thus no spring yields both salt water and fresh.[a]

Heavenly Versus Demonic Wisdom

13 Who is wise and understanding among you? Let him show by good conduct that his works are done in the meekness of wisdom. 14 But if you have bitter envy and self-seeking in your hearts, do not boast and lie against the truth. 15 This wisdom does not descend from above, but is earthly, sensual, demonic. 16 For where envy and self-seeking exist, confusion and every evil thing are there. 17 But the wisdom that is from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, willing to yield, full of mercy and good fruits, without partiality and without hypocrisy. 18 Now the fruit of righteousness is sown in peace by those who make peace.

 

[Avodat]

Chaplain's Advice​

I believe it was last year when we discussed how "I statements" rather than "you statements" were the most appropriate way to post. It still is true and especially now, when there is a good amount of conflict, "I statements" make our posts less likely to be flaming and more like sharing.

Also, talking about others in the forum in disparaging ways does not help anything. What does help, and has always helped, is treating everyone with the love Jesus Christ teaches us.

Let's proceed in Christ, as He would have us behave, and as He would have us treat each other, loving one another, as He loves us.

Shalom

I agree - but at least with 'you' one knows who is being attacked. When it becomes 'us' and 'them', or some other barely disguised euphemism, it is open to a number of people to feel offended and so to respond!!

 

[Gxg (G²)]

Chaplain's Advice​

I believe it was last year when we discussed how "I statements" rather than "you statements" were the most appropriate way to post. It still is true and especially now, when there is a good amount of conflict, "I statements" make our posts less likely to be flaming and more like sharing.

Also, talking about others in the forum in disparaging ways does not help anything. What does help, and has always helped, is treating everyone with the love Jesus Christ teaches us.

Let's proceed in Christ, as He would have us behave, and as He would have us treat each other, loving one another, as He loves us.

Shalom

Thanks for noting that - as it's something to keep in mind since it's not the case that everyone looks the same - and I remember there was previous discussion on that issue when it came to qualifiers being used so as to not give the wrong impression (#714 #486 )

Praying we'd all grow in that - and that I can do better in that areas so as to avoid things taken the wrong way when there was no need.

 

[Chaplain David]

I agree - but at least with 'you' one knows who is being attacked. When it becomes 'us' and 'them', or some other barely disguised euphemism, it is open to a number of people to feel offended and so to respond!!

We shouldn't be attacking each other in any way, shape or form. It is ideas, opinions, or subjects that may be debated or discussed, not people (members). Does everyone see what I mean?

 

[dodari]

We shouldn't be attacking each other in any way, shape or form. It is ideas, opinions, or subjects that may be debated or discussed, not people (members). Does everyone see what I mean?

Mat 23:13But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go inyourselves,neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in.

Mat 23:14Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye devour widows' houses, and for a pretence make long prayer: therefore ye shall receive the greater damnation.

Mat 23:15Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves.

Mat 23:16Woe unto you,yeblind guides, which say, Whosoever shall swear by the temple, it is nothing; but whosoever shall swear by the gold of the temple, he is a debtor!

Mat 23:17Yefools and blind: for whether is greater, the gold, or the temple that sanctifieth the gold?

I suppose, by this forum's higher management's logic, Jesus' castigation of the scribes and Pharisees was not Christ-like?

 

[Tishri1]

Suppose you came to a Christian forum and all there was was a Catholic forum and it's sop, for what Christians believe?

There will be a lot you can't teach on to them or definitely debate with them but fellowship is always available

 

[Tishri1]

You can belong to two congregations as long as BOTH are showing in your posts some where. Pick one icon and somewhere in your title or siggy list the other

Let's not make this overcomplicated; one is either primarily a Messianic, or some other faith. Your icon should show that, and so should your posts.

If you are Messianic, then you can participate in all areas of this forum. If not, then you may only ask questions or fellowship, as per the rules.

If we see someone violating the rules, such as icon swaping, then use the report button.

Simple.

Dan C

edit: was in a hurry ... this is not to say we can't bend a bit for some, like many of the Jewish posters, who come here, answer questions and generally put up with us more than we ever do with them.

 

[Tishri1]

Are you serious?
You high jacked this thread to debate the Eurichrist which is not only not MJ teaching but offensive historically. Sure maybe you disagree but that is where you walk away

It's not MJ
It's not Kosher
It's not up for discussion as its offensive and off topic to this forum

I can think of sooooomany of you who had to stop discussing Torah in other congregational forums as you were offending people in those forums even though you attended their churches

The exuse is that your Christian church loves Torah teaching

So what, that CF congregation although its your faith group it isn't exactly like your church because they are offended to discuss the Law

In cases like that stop it already! If MJ is offended at hearing about your other churches teachings don't teach it in MJ

I understand where you're coming from and don't disagree with that at all.

However, I don't think anyone was saying things were loose at all - although if you had examples of such you felt were loose, that'd be appreciated. What was noted was that others should love/respect each other as has been asked.

No one here at any point has been about going against the SoP. What they have been about is discussing what that looks like when others - in honor of the SoP - are told by others they don't honor it.....and then it's assumed that it's automatically the case someone doesn't "honor it" because another disagrees. Other Messianic Jews (from Contra to others) have noted how they don't care to look for loopholes - and they also note that others DO look for loopholes when talking on Torah Observance and yet ignoring where they already disagree openly with others with collective wrestling with how they apply things in everyday life.


There's no real debate on how to live Messianic without noticing where there's differing levels of Observance and a need to respect others in their differences - as the SoP shares. But if people get offended when others from one side share their differneces, then there's no need talking on others being respected in their differences of observance at all - for there is already an assumption (counter to what's said) that ALL look the same in observation.

Which side gets favor when offense happens is what others are discussing - do you take up the side of others feeling that believers should meet together on Shabbat as a synagogue ...or do you take up the side that says you should stay at home with your family (in honor of the Torah) when Sabbath occurs? If one side is offended at the other - and yet BOTH sides study the Torah/want to honor it - do you claim it's automatically the case one side is looking for "loopholes" because another disagrees with how things are to be played out?

The same thing goes for a host of other issues.....and so long as that's not spelled out clearly outside of "Don't offend" - it does nothing but leave others confused......especially when the main ones "offended" never learn to respect differences or suspect the WORSE of anyone disagreeing rather than honoring the SoP.

When other Messianics are talking amongst themselves on why one group considers something to be Kosher and another says (in their own threads) what they enjoy as Kosher, there's an obvious disagreement - and respect would be for others to NOT go into threads where others talk on one form of kosher they disagree with....and instead stay in those threads where they do agree. However, it is problematic when you disagree with one form of kosher - jump into that thread pertaining to it - and then claim others "offended you" for sharing.

How are things to be done practically - by both sides?

How can one logically say that we are all on differing levels of observance - and yet always be offended when others share where they differ? That is what many Messianic Jews/Gentiles havbe been discussing for years with regards to the SoP: Either we respect each other in our differences and talk to those we agree with - or we don't ..and then go into other threads with others we never agreed with in the first place.

So perhaps some clear cut examples of how discussion on Torah Observance are necessary - if wanting to have differing levels of Messianics present and really wanting diversity of all in MJism here when it comes to God's Law - and clear cut examples of where things were pushed that should not have been. On BOTH sides of the camps rather than one. Serious question..


This is something I've seen noted even in the Catholic forum.

When in the Catholic forum, Others who are there don't bring up things such as idol worship for Liturgy. On the same token, other Catholics present who do enjoy liturgy DON'T say to other Catholics who've been there long-term that they are wrong for loving Eastern Rite Catholic Liturgy because they themselves are Roman Latin Rite Catholics...for there have always been other Catholics present who do love Liturgy from an Eastern Catholic perspective - and those for Eastern Catholic perspectices talk amongst one another rather than go into the Roman Latin Rite threads/bash them - and the two camps learn to live together rather than have one side say that liturgy is not accepted on the forums because they (in their select group out of many other Catholics) don't like it - even though it has already been the case that other Catholics have long accepted it/talked on it.

 

[Gxg (G²)]

Are you serious?
You high jacked this thread to debate the Eurichrist

Tish,

Who asked the question on Eucharis? And who made the statement that no Messianic synagogues allow for it? For those are both DEBATE and teaching - started by others.

Did you address it? And if not, why did you label a response to it as a "hijack"? That's selective

 

[Tishri1]

Are you serious?
You high jacked this thread to debate the Eurichrist which is not only not MJ teaching but offensive historically. Sure maybe you disagree but that is where you walk away

It's not MJ
It's not Kosher
It's not up for discussion as its offensive and off topic to this forum

I can think of sooooomany of you who had to stop discussing Torah in other congregational forums as you were offending people in those forums even though you attended their churches

The exuse usually is that your Christian church loves Torah teaching

So what that CF congregation although its your faith group it isn't exactly like your church because they are offended to discuss the Law

In cases like that stop it already!l

I understand where you're coming from and don't disagree with that at all.

However, I don't think anyone was saying things were loose at all - although if you had examples of such you felt were loose, that'd be appreciated. What was noted was that others should love/respect each other as has been asked.

No one here at any point has been about going against the SoP. What they have been about is discussing what that looks like when others - in honor of the SoP - are told by others they don't honor it.....and then it's assumed that it's automatically the case someone doesn't "honor it" because another disagrees. Other Messianic Jews (from Contra to others) have noted how they don't care to look for loopholes - and they also note that others DO look for loopholes when talking on Torah Observance and yet ignoring where they already disagree openly with others with collective wrestling with how they apply things in everyday life.


There's no real debate on how to live Messianic without noticing where there's differing levels of Observance and a need to respect others in their differences - as the SoP shares. But if people get offended when others from one side share their differneces, then there's no need talking on others being respected in their differences of observance at all - for there is already an assumption (counter to what's said) that ALL look the same in observation.

Which side gets favor when offense happens is what others are discussing - do you take up the side of others feeling that believers should meet together on Shabbat as a synagogue ...or do you take up the side that says you should stay at home with your family (in honor of the Torah) when Sabbath occurs? If one side is offended at the other - and yet BOTH sides study the Torah/want to honor it - do you claim it's automatically the case one side is looking for "loopholes" because another disagrees with how things are to be played out?

The same thing goes for a host of other issues.....and so long as that's not spelled out clearly outside of "Don't offend" - it does nothing but leave others confused......especially when the main ones "offended" never learn to respect differences or suspect the WORSE of anyone disagreeing rather than honoring the SoP.

When other Messianics are talking amongst themselves on why one group considers something to be Kosher and another says (in their own threads) what they enjoy as Kosher, there's an obvious disagreement - and respect would be for others to NOT go into threads where others talk on one form of kosher they disagree with....and instead stay in those threads where they do agree. However, it is problematic when you disagree with one form of kosher - jump into that thread pertaining to it - and then claim others "offended you" for sharing.

How are things to be done practically - by both sides?

How can one logically say that we are all on differing levels of observance - and yet always be offended when others share where they differ? That is what many Messianic Jews/Gentiles havbe been discussing for years with regards to the SoP: Either we respect each other in our differences and talk to those we agree with - or we don't ..and then go into other threads with others we never agreed with in the first place.

So perhaps some clear cut examples of how discussion on Torah Observance are necessary - if wanting to have differing levels of Messianics present and really wanting diversity of all in MJism here when it comes to God's Law - and clear cut examples of where things were pushed that should not have been. On BOTH sides of the camps rather than one. Serious question..


This is something I've seen noted even in the Catholic forum.

When in the Catholic forum, Others who are there don't bring up things such as idol worship for Liturgy. On the same token, other Catholics present who do enjoy liturgy DON'T say to other Catholics who've been there long-term that they are wrong for loving Eastern Rite Catholic Liturgy because they themselves are Roman Latin Rite Catholics...for there have always been other Catholics present who do love Liturgy from an Eastern Catholic perspective - and those for Eastern Catholic perspectices talk amongst one another rather than go into the Roman Latin Rite threads/bash them - and the two camps learn to live together rather than have one side say that liturgy is not accepted on the forums because they (in their select group out of many other Catholics) don't like it - even though it has already been the case that other Catholics have long accepted it/talked on it.

 

[Gxg (G²)]

Are you serious?
You high jacked this thread to debate the Eurichrist which is not only not MJ teaching but offensive historically. Sure maybe you disagree but that is where you walk away

It's not MJ
It's not Kosher
It's not up for discussion as its offensive and off topic to this forum

I can think of sooooomany of you who had to stop discussing Torah in other congregational forums as you were offending people in those forums even though you attended their churches

The exuse usually is that your Christian church loves Torah teaching

So what that CF congregation although its your faith group it isn't exactly like your church because they are offended to discuss the Law

In cases like that stop it already!l

Tish,

Sincerely, it was already stopped a long time ago...so I don't know why you even brought up. Folks walked away a long time ago since it was understood others disagreed - and I couldn't care less about discussing the intricacies of Eucharist here on this thread further.

What was asked, however, was who asked the question on Eucharist to begin with?

For you accused as if I started/made the thread about that - but that is inaccurate and I know I didn't even start the issue since it was others who did so (here and here amongst others) when another (Sister Visionary in specific) claimed no Messianic Jewish synagogue allowed for Eucharist and another responded (Sister Rachael Rachael) in asking WHY - as she in her Messianic background has been for it like other Messianics. As seen DIRECTLY from comments:

Long winded sentence...but yeah for the most part... I think the biggest complaint is from those who have left things found in churches, like eucharist, sunday, christmas, easter, halloween, pigs in diet, etc.. that find it promoted in this corner of the forum.. to be too little away from the things of this world for their taste in Him.

Okay....these are the kind of questions I'm talking about.
Are you saying Messianics don't believe in the "eucharist," and if no, why not?
All the other things you mentioned are gone from my life (well, except for a lingering smidgen of Christmas.)

Also, when you say Torah, do you mean Mosaic Law?

Find sucharist in any of Yeshua's practices or traditions or lifestyle? There is not even a hint of thinking that eating human flesh anywhere within Judaism is kosher. It is one thing to have the miracle of water to wine.. but it is quite another to think wine to blood, which isn't kosher as something to ingest in any form.

Well, I disagree but I'm not here to debate!
Also, I edited and added another question to my above post.

Any response given was a matter of offending someone at some point, be it the Messianic for it...or the Messianic not for it. You could've said "We don't allow for topics like that to be brought up here in the main forum" - but you didn't. That is odd to me since it's often claimed Messianic J are connected with the Church - and that has come up before when it comes to not blasting Church practices done in MJism.

Moreover, the person (Rachael Rachael) made a comment I agreed with - and I spoke out in support of Rachael based on what was already said in previous discussions when it seemed false information was conveyed ( #46 ) - and another responded on it when it seemed misunderstood what was said ( #48 ). Even after the issue was long dropped, others chose to bring up the subject all over again - making claims on what other Messianics believed that were not even true - and that was responded to as well ( #66 ) since no one likes having words placed in their mouths.

But you said ZERO to them when they were talking/teaching - so I have to ask "Are you serious?" when trying to zero in on others who jumped in once the subject was introduced/sustained. For I'd hate to think you were being selective in who you focused on. Again, who are the MJ whom you're concerned with offending? Because one cannot claim to be concerned with MJ - or wanting all flavors - and yet never speak up for those MJ offended when certain views against what they value (like Eucharist) are deemed to not be MJ even when much of MJ as a whole hasn't said anything AGAINST it - and noted the varying definitions of it which don't fit stereotypical answers given against it.

If you wanted certain extended discussions to go on the Bridge Builders forum (as you shared earlier in #163 ), cool - but to switch (as it seems here) and say "Debate Eurichrist .. is not only not MJ teaching but offensive historically - It's not up for discussion as its offensive and off topic to this forum" - it doesn't seem to line up with what was asked before. Why even have a Bridge Builders forum to begin with for that discussion (i.e. the intersecting of the Church and MJ Culture/theology and practices) if you now suddenly feel that even talking about those issues is not MJ?

To be true to the MJ Movement, I have to go with history ...and the entire "Eucharist is not MJ" claim is not historical since discussion on the issue has been noted by MOST of Messianic Judaism when having to correct others who give false comments on other Jews involved in it. That's not that difficult to document ( as the official Kesher Journal of Messianic Judaism has often pointed out amongst many others all over the MJ movement ) - and yes, I AM serious on asking on it - for it makes no sense, IMHO, talking on "hijack" for someone responding to a comment/accusation made when a very thought was introduced preivously by others - and NOWHERE in MJism (be it the UMJC which your own fellowship is a part of) or the whole of mainstream MJ is Eucharist spoken against as a whole.

As other Messianic Jews noted:

I've celebrated The Lord's Table/Eucharist/whatever-you-want-to-call-it more than once in a Messianic congregation. They welcome me, and I welcome them when they visit us.

What's wrong with that?

Most Messianics I know don't think the eucharist and the Passover are the same- you are right. On this point they agree 100% with the Church. The Church doesn't think a Passover Seder is the same as The Lord's Supper either.

...Of course a Passover Seder is for a different purpose! The Passover Seder is for Jews to remember our heritage and how we were saved out of Egypt. We are commanded to keep it a perpetual memory. The Lord's Supper recalls the cross, our redemption from sin, and looks forward to the Second Advent. They recall different events. A Jew who believes in the Messiah can (and should IMHO) keep both. Both events are in salvation history, both are commandments.

Careful reading of the Bible will give you evidence you need that the Christian celebration known as Eucharist / Communion / Lord's Supper / Last Supper / Breaking of Bread, has its origins in the Passover Seder of Judaism. As Scripture gives the meaning, authority and means, Christians need no external evidence from the secular world.

one of my oldest and best friends is a RC priest. He explains it this way: Jesus is literally present in the Bread and Wine just like He is literally present everywhere (eg. He sits at the right hand of the Father but the Father's right hand is everywhere). His presence is spiritual, which is just as real as physical. He is therefore literally present, spiritually.

. There are many within MJism who do believe in the eucharist and many who see a very clear connection between it and Passover.

I thank you, and in my experience this is true. The three or so MJ congregations I have visited all celebrate it in the same manner as most Protestants do, often using a traditional Jewish blessing before the scriptural words of institution, which is fine of course.
.

​

I have little peace telling extensive MJs throughout the world of Messianic Judaism they're suddenly not "Messianic" because of their historical support for Eucharist - as I'd offend them without reason.

With all due respect, I have not seen any tackling or intervention by yourself in the repeated times other Messianic members (whom you agree with at times) brought up those issues and they shared on the forum openly. Apparently (and I can only go by what's shared), it wasn't "offensive" when another Messianic asked on the issue in the forum and other Messianics discussed - nor was it "offensive" if/when Messianics shared differences of thought on the issue. So to bring up "it's not MJ" or "It's Not Kosher" here as if it was the 1st time the topic came up - and suddenly isn't MJ .....it doesn't make a lot of sense for application, IMHO.

If you have evidence, then it'd make sense for one as yourself to give proof that Eucharist is not taught in other Messianic fellowships - or address every thread made by other Messianic Jews in the history of the boards who engaged lengthy discussions on their support of it:

• Messianic History (a history of Jewish believers throughout the centuries - by Sister Visionary, where it was brought up by Visionary on other believers celebrating Eucharist with Jewish believers in #70 )

• Euchrist and Messianic Judaism

• Do Messianic Jews Observe Communion?

• What is the Messianic equivalent to the eucharist? (#22/ #59 #72 #93 )

• Anyone from any religion can be Messianic ( #36 )

• What is your personal view on Communion/Eucharist/L-rd's Supper?

• Messianic Judaism? ( #24 #1, #11, #81, #427, Was the Lord's supper Passover )

That doesn't just go away (nor did I even make any of those threads) since many of them were made by people not liking the issue - and it's why others even started conversation on the subject here (Visionary and Rachael Rachel), even though you didn't say a word to them when teaching comments were mentioned. And I am asking if all of those aforementioned threads on the forum and others are to be erased....or if EVERY subsequent mention of the issue is not allowed. Future reference is what I am concerned with. And what I am concerned with is consistency with what has occurred throughout the MJ Forum - and what appears to be a sudden 180 degree turn from that without realizing it.