Icons and the last few years on CF

[visionary]

How is it an insult in your eyes?
Didn't Jesus often insult the Jewish rulers in the Gospels?.

You are now stepping into a mindfield... please step away from the area for your own safety.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Originally Posted by visionary

You would have to see it through our eyes to understand the insult.
​

Originally Posted by LittleLambofJesus

How is it an insult in your eyes?
Didn't Jesus often insult the Jewish rulers in the Gospels?.
​

You are now stepping into a mindfield... please step away from the area for your own safety.

What do you mean by my own safety?



.



.

 

[visionary]

How is it an insult in your eyes?
Didn't Jesus often insult the Jewish rulers in the Gospels?
.

You have never seen two Jews discuss things... Yeshua’s interpretation and application of Torah is thorough, extending the meaning to the most selfless, humble, faithful, holistic interpretation possible. Yeshua's attention getter was to knock them off their self-righteous stand first and then apply better understanding. Yeshua does everything with love for everyone he came into contact with. Even if He has to use tough love. But in a closer look... you will see a lot more similarities than differences.. http://www.yashanet.com/studies/matstudy/mat3a.htm

 

[Tishri1]

I absolutely agree with all the responses.
It may be okay with the mods for those not holding an MJ icon to come in here teaching and debating according to the specific MJ SoP....but I've been told by two mods that just because someone flies the "proper" icon, or says they follow Messianic Judaism, it is NOT okay to teach/debate against the commonly held tenets of this forum which are spelled out in our SoP.
If this is correct, then we have had and continue to have numerous fly-bys, and quite a few long-standing "regular" posters who are breaking this rule.

report these and send the links to me

But don't reply or play forum police

It is ok to PM them and alert them to the rules just don't do it in the thread

 

[Tishri1]

Mainstream Christian doctrine can be very MJ or not be at all MJ. It depends on the subject so that's what we need to work on. Avoid subjects that are opposed to what we highlight in the sop ok .....it maybe only Torah observance and the trinity but soooo many things come under those headings that you have to be careful is all

Thanks for noting that - as I'm surprised so many have long seemed to be missing that very simple point for a long time others have been trying to say even though others have pointed it out like Brother Mark when he shared similar from long ago when similar issues were brought up:

​

And as MessianicMommy noted directly when it comes to Messianic Judaism from a global perspective:

​

Most of this was addressed and well noted by several Messianic Jews/Messianic Gentiles - as well as by the Jewish community of non-believers who chose to speak up in regards to the issues - and it was unfortunate to see where others had to point out the history of the rules/multiple things that've occurred for ages and shared (as Messianic Jews) in noting the issue squarely for what it was (#91 /#118 )...even though it got intense at certain points because of misunderstanding on what had been said in the past.

The continual claim of "mainstream Christian being opposite of Messianic Judism/Observance of Law" - has never seemed really consistent when it comes to the reality that mainstream Messianic Judaism has never made it a point to divorce from that which was Christian (except when dealing with mainstream Churches claiming the Law/Torah are not important or that God is done with the Jewish people) - for they noted often that much of what was said was never in conflict with Love for God's Law....or Jewish culture being valued/expressed.. We already had a rather extensive thread on the issue entitled Messianic History - with great variety of Messianic Jews throughout history...proudly Jewish and Christian - and never seeing any real disconnection with the Church.

To be Messianic Jewish or with Messianic Judaism is to walk out your Jewish heritage /lifestyle in honor of Yeshua - serving Him while honoring His Law. Nothing more, nothing less....and with that comes the reality of differing understandings of how to walk out God's Torah/God's Law - but in none of that comes seeking to be anti-Torah simply because of differences in observation. That'd be akin to someone saying another is "anti-Torah"/Non-Messianic simply because one doesn't feel pressure to adhere to purity laws in Leviticus 13 (needing a priest) when it seems those cannot be walked out - even though they observe in other ways - and someone who does value purity laws chooses to wage war against those people for noting what can apply in the times we live in.

But as long as it's assumed that being a Messianic Jew (or Messianic Gentile) means that nothing "mainstream" in Christianity is ever to be referenced, there will be false scenarios brought up.

But you learn to live with it...

 

[Rachel Rachel]

Speaking for myself, I've found you to be a pleasant addition to the forum. I doubt anyone has had a serious problem with your postings.

Shalom, shalom, Rachel Rachel.

Thank you, Mishkan. We have a bit of history, too, don't we?

 

[Rachel Rachel]

Thanks everyone for the kind words.

 

[Tishri1]

and anyone chipping at the foundational law needs to be identified as not part of the MJ community at bare minimium.

The easiest solution is just avoid commenting on those topics when they come up


If your synagogue or family eats pork you know that is not observing Torah right there so honor those who do eat kosher and simply stay out of those threads and avoid commenting on those posts

 

[Tishri1]

It's not as loose as that EZ

Imagine your in the catholic forum and you want to debate idol worship

There needs to be a lot of humility and self control not to offend and not to undo any of their practices or traditions

You may be a catholic who doesn't see it as idol worship or you may be one who does You might be catholic but at that point you have to control your tongue not to offend

The best course of action is to refrain from the subject if it goes against their sop or loosely goes against it. Don't look for loop holes to wiggle into ...love them they are your brother, so love them enough not to go toward offensiveness

That will always be a matter of what others have noted when it comes tDATA ALERT: Your acct used its data allowance for the bill ending 8th & may be billed overage. Manage your plan at vzw.com. As of 07/09 12:44 AM EDT. FREE MSGo what is said in the MJ Community with differences in what observation is about - no different than the Orthodox Jews saying the Chasidic are "chipping away" or the MJish assuming one has to walk according to purity laws from Leviticus 13 and thinking other MJs who don't think that's possible (due to a lack of a priest) don't "value God's Law" - for what matters is what CHRIST and the Apostles noted (which was building upon the foundation set by Mosaic Law and previous Covenants) - and if not going with them, ultimately, one ends up going against what has been held central in the MJ Community (mainstream/the origins of the movement from the 1960s) and Jewish believers since day 1 of the Body being made 1,000 of years ago.

It's one thing for others to say "Torah is foolish!!!" or claiming that "Nothing from Torah is important - it's all done away with!!!" - for those things will never be a matter of truly valuing the Foundational Law. Those are the things that keep someone from being identified as not part of the MJ Community. However, discussing the importance of the Law/seeing how it is to be lived out is another - one of the reasons discussion has occurred over how/why we do not stone others to death when they commit a sin like it was in the Civil Law of Israel (as that wasn't the culture WE live in) and it's one of the reasons believers didn't practice the same even though it was in the Mosaic - for they knew that certain things didn't apply in the same way as before. There are several other variations of the issue that've occurred - from what is defiend as Kosher....to seeing how others (be it Jew or Gentile) keep Sabbath since some feel that they should gather in communities on the Sabbath like in the OT while others feel the OT required one to remain at HOME for the Sabbath....to noting times where the Lord Christ seemed to respond differently to people than the judges/magistrates did in the OT (i.e. touching those who were unclean without becoming "unclean", etc.)..

If going on what has been said in the MJ movement since its inception, it is a matter of upholding the Law of God when discussing how it is applied today - and it is also seen as chipping away when others, zealous for it, make claims on how the Law applies for others even when the Lord and the Law never did such. ...as what matters is representing God's Law - for Jew and Gentile - the way that it was when it was developed. That's something many see as being at stake - for it doesn't go with historical consistency to do otherwise and that will never be a matter of walking out things as the Lord intended.

And what the Apostles noted was very direct:

1 John 3:13-15
​

We know that we have passed from death to life, because we love our brothers. Anyone who does not love remains in death.

1 John 4:20
​

If anyone says, “I love God,” yet hates his brother, he is a liar. For anyone who does not love his brother, whom he has seen, cannot love God, whom he has not seen. And he has given us this command: Whoever loves God must also love his brother.
​

1 John 3
​

​

Everyone who sins breaks the law; in fact, sin is lawlessness. 5 But you know that he appeared so that he might take away our sins. And in him is no sin.
​

If one isn't committed to doing love for neighbors as Christ noted, they're really not commited to doing things in the interpretation of Covenant that Yeshua required.

Apostle John was very direct on it and spoke in no uncertain terms

John 13:34-35
​

“A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another. By this all men will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another.”

John 15:8-18
​

This is to my Father’s glory, that you bear much fruit, showing yourselves to be my disciples.
9 “As the Father has loved me, so have I loved you. Now remain in my love. 10 If you obey my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have obeyed my Father’s commands and remain in his love. 11 I have told you this so that my joy may be in you and that your joy may be complete. 12 My command is this: Love each other as I have loved you. 13 Greater love has no one than this, that he lay down his life for his friends. 14 You are my friends if you do what I command.15 I no longer call you servants, because a servant does not know his master’s business. Instead, I have called you friends, for everything that I learned from my Father I have made known to you. 16 You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you to go and bear fruit—fruit that will last. Then the Father will give you whatever you ask in my name. 17 This is my command: Love each other.


Romans 13:8
[ Love, for the Day Is Near ] Let no debt remain outstanding, except the continuing debt to love one another, for he who loves his fellowman has fulfilled the law. The commandments, “Do not commit adultery,” “Do not murder,” “Do not steal,” “Do not covet,”[] and whatever other commandment there may be, are summed up in this one rule: “Love your neighbor as yourself.”[b 10 Love does no harm to its neighbor. Therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.

​

Galatians 5:6
​

For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision has any value. The only thing that counts is faith expressing itself through love.

James 2:8
​

​

8If you really keep the royal law found in Scripture, “Love your neighbor as yourself,”[] you are doing right.9
​

 

[annier]

It's not as loose as that EZ

Imagine your in the catholic forum and you want to debate idol worship

Suppose you came to a Christian forum and all there was was a Catholic forum and it's sop, for what Christians believe?

 

[dnc101]

Let's not make this overcomplicated; one is either primarily a Messianic, or some other faith. Your icon should show that, and so should your posts.

If you are Messianic, then you can participate in all areas of this forum. If not, then you may only ask questions or fellowship, as per the rules.

If we see someone violating the rules, such as icon swaping, then use the report button.

Simple.

Dan C

edit: was in a hurry ... this is not to say we can't bend a bit for some, like many of the Jewish posters, who come here, answer questions and generally put up with us more than we ever do with them.

When we had these problems a while ago, I pointed out that the 'rules' were ambiguous - what was clearly required in one part of the rules, was NOT shown as a requirement in another part, and visitors were not slow in taking advantage of that sloppiness in the rules. Tishri has addressed this issue and the rules are now consistent and crystal clear in saying that non-Members may not teach or debate on MJ fora.

The ambiguity in the rules that is causing all the problems today is in interpreting what the word 'Member' actually means. Who is a Member and how do we spot those who are not?

If an icon is NOT to be used as a means of defining Membership of these fora, we need another means to do so - without a clear, agreed, defining statement of just what constitutes Membership these annual rages will continue. I would suggest that we require those who consider themselves Messianics to adopt one of the Messianic icons, with those who are Messianic but work in the Church (as several of us do) making that clear in some way - in the profile or in one's signature. I know this is the reverse of an apparent ad-hoc addition to the rules, but it is far better to be consistent with icons (if we really have to use them) that are a ready and useful indication of where a person is coming from, than for visitors to see a whole raft of crosses being accepted as 'Messianic' when they come here. If were new, here, as a Christian, I would feel quite happy to jump in here and spout non- Messianic teachings because there are plenty of other 'Christians' on here, according to their icons. And if I were told I have a cross and cannot teach or debate I would argue vociferously that others do on these fora, why can't I? By then, it is a bit late to say that all those with cross icons have the word Messianic somewhere in each post - thus we also get the charge of those who appear favoured (whether wrongly or rightly). If icons really mean very little but cause so much trouble, may I ask why we bother to use them; we seem to have a number of other 'icons' people place near their names and maybe some of these could be used to indicate a duality of commitment for those who are Messianic and who work in the Church, if we have to use such things?

Therein is the problem we face - we need to define, clearly, what the term 'Member' means or we must continue with people trying to drive a coach and horses through the rules and creating havoc among us. It is NOT people that are at fault, whether visitors or 'residents' - it is the ambiguity that is perpetuated by rules that lack definition of key terms. Sort that and all of us will know where we stand!

 

[Gxg (G²)]

It's not as loose as that EZ

Imagine your in the catholic forum and you want to debate idol worship

There needs to be a lot of humility and self control not to offend and not to undo any of their practices or traditions

You may be a catholic who doesn't see it as idol worship or you may be one who does You might be catholic but at that point you have to control your tongue not to offend

The best course of action is to refrain from the subject if it goes against their sop or loosely goes against it. Don't look for loop holes to wiggle into ...love them they are your brother, so love them enough not to go toward offensiveness

I understand where you're coming from and don't disagree with that at all.

However, I don't think anyone was saying things were loose at all - although if you had examples of such you felt were loose, that'd be appreciated. What was noted was that others should love/respect each other as has been asked.

No one here at any point has been about going against the SoP. What they have been about is discussing what that looks like when others - in honor of the SoP - are told by others they don't honor it.....and then it's assumed that it's automatically the case someone doesn't "honor it" because another disagrees. Other Messianic Jews (from Contra to others) have noted how they don't care to look for loopholes - and they also note that others DO look for loopholes when talking on Torah Observance and yet ignoring where they already disagree openly with others with collective wrestling with how they apply things in everyday life.


There's no real debate on how to live Messianic without noticing where there's differing levels of Observance and a need to respect others in their differences - as the SoP shares. But if people get offended when others from one side share their differneces, then there's no need talking on others being respected in their differences of observance at all - for there is already an assumption (counter to what's said) that ALL look the same in observation.

Which side gets favor when offense happens is what others are discussing - do you take up the side of others feeling that believers should meet together on Shabbat as a synagogue ...or do you take up the side that says you should stay at home with your family (in honor of the Torah) when Sabbath occurs? If one side is offended at the other - and yet BOTH sides study the Torah/want to honor it - do you claim it's automatically the case one side is looking for "loopholes" because another disagrees with how things are to be played out?

The same thing goes for a host of other issues.....and so long as that's not spelled out clearly outside of "Don't offend" - it does nothing but leave others confused......especially when the main ones "offended" never learn to respect differences or suspect the WORSE of anyone disagreeing rather than honoring the SoP.

When other Messianics are talking amongst themselves on why one group considers something to be Kosher and another says (in their own threads) what they enjoy as Kosher, there's an obvious disagreement - and respect would be for others to NOT go into threads where others talk on one form of kosher they disagree with....and instead stay in those threads where they do agree. However, it is problematic when you disagree with one form of kosher - jump into that thread pertaining to it - and then claim others "offended you" for sharing.

How are things to be done practically - by both sides?

How can one logically say that we are all on differing levels of observance - and yet always be offended when others share where they differ? That is what many Messianic Jews/Gentiles havbe been discussing for years with regards to the SoP: Either we respect each other in our differences and talk to those we agree with - or we don't ..and then go into other threads with others we never agreed with in the first place.

So perhaps some clear cut examples of how discussion on Torah Observance are necessary - if wanting to have differing levels of Messianics present and really wanting diversity of all in MJism here when it comes to God's Law - and clear cut examples of where things were pushed that should not have been. On BOTH sides of the camps rather than one. Serious question..


This is something I've seen noted even in the Catholic forum.

When in the Catholic forum, Others who are there don't bring up things such as idol worship for Liturgy. On the same token, other Catholics present who do enjoy liturgy DON'T say to other Catholics who've been there long-term that they are wrong for loving Eastern Rite Catholic Liturgy because they themselves are Roman Latin Rite Catholics...for there have always been other Catholics present who do love Liturgy from an Eastern Catholic perspective - and those for Eastern Catholic perspectices talk amongst one another rather than go into the Roman Latin Rite threads/bash them - and the two camps learn to live together rather than have one side say that liturgy is not accepted on the forums because they (in their select group out of many other Catholics) don't like it - even though it has already been the case that other Catholics have long accepted it/talked on it.

 

[Gxg (G²)]

The easiest solution is just avoid commenting on those topics when they come up


If your synagogue or family eats pork you know that is not observing Torah right there so honor those who do eat kosher and simply stay out of those threads and avoid commenting on those posts

It's indeed very easy to just avoid commenting on topics when they come up that we disagree with....and others have suggested that one just take them to the proper sub-forum within the Messianic Judaism for discussion to occur .

Nonetheless, I still wonder how this is to be played out.

In the event that others stay out of threads where folks disagree - and others who made those threads choose to follow people into other threads that have nothing to do with the issue and they bring it up, what occurs then? That has happened a couple of times.

For that is something others have noted as an issue. There are multiple instances people practice kosher - but have family elsewhere who don't (i.e. eating pork). They note where this is the case and why they don't condemn their family for it in view of what Torah says with Gentiles not being commanded to not eat pork at any point in Jewish history and why they choose to be respectful even as they keep to their standards - as does the majority of the Messianic Jewish movement. Other Messianic Jews/Gentiles in a thread made on THAT topic agree..

But others disagreeing with that issue come in/claim "Torah Observance is not being kept!!!"......and that is something to be addressed. For when Biblical history (with Messianic Jews) and the Messianic Jewish movement at large have noted that Torah Observance was not being violated, how does it become a matter of "not Torah Observance" because someone disagrees? Moreover, if others have already chosen to stay out of threads dedicated to those disagreeing with their stances - and others opposing a view jump into it anyway/comment on posts rather than avoiding those threads - how is it practically addressed when it's the case that others make it a point to follow people around when they didn't need to?

This has come up before when the SoP talks on "we all need to respect different levels of observation" or not judge - knowing we're not uniform in the Messianic Synagogues we attend or in how we live our lives - and yet it seems debates are allowed on issues until it crosses where another is comfortable. How is it the case that people are to respect differneces if they don't recognize where you cannot allow differences in the first place?

We've had a lot of good discussions on a host of issues which others have enjoyed:

• Discussing GMOs
• Gifts of the Spirit
• The plates of the planet

Many more threads can come to mind - but at many instances, people from all sides jumped in....different as they were....and were willing to discuss because they all understood that we're different yet seeking the Lord. As long as basic respect for differences was present and people knew what others were saying, it was good discussion - and in disagreement on application, others could still converse.

Of course, a lot of conversations were discussions based in fellowship - but it tended to be the case on BOTH SIDES that something may've been said that pertained to how they practiced/lived their lives - and both sides learned to converse. It wasn't a matter of one side saying "I think eating fried chicken is Kosher!!!" and then having another side come in to disagree/blast that ....but instead, an issue of someone talking about why chicken has been enjoyable and then the conversation opening up to both sides on what they think is proper for eating chicken. For those types of discussions, love did make a lot of difference..

Personally, I've had several occasions of seeking to defend others here against other Christians (notably from GT) who came in/ sought to condemn others in saying nothing from the Mosaic Law/Torah is to be continued by believers - and claiming that Gentiles were wrong for wanting to observe certain things - be it here or elsewhere (seen here, here, here, here, here, and here). And other Messianic Jews have been in agreement when it comes to Torah Observance already being practiced in large degrees. And I definitely dislike/hate it when others seek to observe and they get hounded for it in the name of "God said that the Mosaic Torah is useless!!!" - for that's not neither Biblical or a part of the SoP. And since others are on differing levels of observance, it's a big deal whenever people condemn another because they happen to be on another level of practice.

And it's going too far when folks start belittling others - especially over observance. There was one example I can recall when there was a discussion on Niddah/the laws of purity in Leviticus - as seen here. I was reminded of one lady sharing her heart and how she sought to live out what she felt the Mosaic Law called for when it came to saying you're "unclean" and having to seperate herself from the camp if having a period. The lady later realized that her heart to honor God's law was cool - but she herself later said that she discovered she could never really honor the Law on that point as it was since it called for a Levitical Priest to examine/inspect - and was specifically related to what occurred within the Israelite land when camps were set up...and she was focused on the example of what Yeshua did. But others who differed respected her where she was and honored her as she honored them if they felt they were to live that out according to the Lord.

And that's what many have been noting when it comes to times people had good discussion on the issue...

 

[Gxg (G²)]

Mainstream Christian doctrine can be very MJ or not be at all MJ. It depends on the subject so that's what we need to work on. Avoid subjects that are opposed to what we highlight in the sop ok .....it maybe only only Torah observance and the trinity but soooo many things come under those headings that you have to be careful is all

I agree.

I think how that breaks down is where a lot of battle seems to lie.

It often seems there are a LOT of stereotypes of what a Messianic is supposed to look like - and if discussing other issues in fellowship (i.e. what sports team someone likes, addressing an action by the president, talking on astronomy or other issues, etc.), it's assumed that no Messianic can really talk on that since it doesn't sound "Messianic Jewish" - something I find funny a lot of times since Messianic Jews and Messianic Gentiles don't always talk soley on Israel, the Festivals/Biblical Feasts or issues pertaining to Torah.

And when it comes to discussing Torah, even within fellowships people can disagree on certain things - but still be united in loving the Lord/Israel and typical things Messianics hold sacred.

On this forum, both sides have sought to focus on Torah Observance (with respect to how others are all on differing levels and Torah Positive) - but how to walk away when there are differences and spell out what that looks like is where clarity can go, IMHO.

For if you're going to have discussion amongst Messianics - and it's acknowledged that ALL here on the boards differ in lifestyle/fellowship and where they seek to apply Torah as they understand it - how can that be done without always assuming it's a matter of not doing "Torah Observance" the moment you disagree? So long as clear examples on the majority of issues are not brought up in the SoP, there will always be fighting on what happens.

It's like having someone from UMJC (in how they understand Torah Observance) and another from FFOZ or the fellowship you go to all seeking to honor Torah - and yet being ready to fight the moment your observance differs.....but still saying "We all have to respect differences in observation" in order to say they know others are at differing levels. It leads to confusion....or others assuming people try to get past things instead of giving benefit of the doubt that all are seeking - and could easily be called out by another differing than them in one area as "not Torah Observant" since all don't practice the same way.

So some things need to be spelled out - or made clear that we're going by ONE interpretation of what Torah observance is like - making a list of ONE set of foods all are to eat ...one set of ways all are to observe Sabbath - and one set of ways Gentiles are to be seen if claiming to have a Messianic view. But to my knowledge, that has never been done....

Practically, when it comes to discussions - with others from one side being for observance of Torah more so in one area and those on another side differing in where observance goes (and BOTH sides believing Torah is NOT done away with) - how does this from the SoP get played out practically in discussion?

1. This is a Torah Observant forum where those in Judaism as well as the Gentiles who are coming to Messiah, and those who already know Him, may come and grow and learn more about a Torah observant life in Messiah. We advocate Torah Observance as part of our walk with Messiah Yeshua, since He is our example and was Torah Observant, along with the disciples. This can be an area of great division with much misunderstanding, so we must realize that we are all at different points in our walk and that the Ruach Elohim (the Spirit of God) will lead people to The Truth. We realize that not all Messianics have equal levels of Torah observance. The disputes concerning this matter will not be tolerated.

2. Realize that we will not all agree with each other, or with everything we see on this forum. If an issue or topic comes to an impasse and you are frustrated, all parties involved should agree to dis-agree and let the issue or topic drop. Each poster should then take the issue to our Heavenly Father in prayer and let Him speak to each individual about it.

​

We've had several note that others have long sought to do this when it comes to observing Torah and all differing - but it often seems missed because one side may yell at others they disagree with that they're pushing "Torah Obserance not being promoted" - and the other side says others are "not Messianic" BECAUSE they try to observe in ways others disagree with/don't feel necessary.

How can both have discussion if others will always disagree?

 

[Gxg (G²)]

Thanks everyone for the kind words.

 

[annier]

I understand where you're coming from and don't disagree with that at all.

However, I don't think anyone was saying things were loose at all

No one here at any point has been about going against the SoP. What they have been about is discussing what that looks like when others - in honor of the SoP - are told by others they don't honor it.....and then it's assumed that it's automatically the case someone doesn't "honor it" because another disagrees. Other Messianic Jews (from Contra to others) have noted how they don't care to look for loopholes - and they also note that others DO look for loopholes when talking on Torah Observance and yet ignoring where they already disagree openly with others with collective wrestling with how they apply things in everyday life.


There's no real debate on how to live Messianic without noticing where there's differing levels of Observance and a need to respect others in their differences - as the SoP shares. But if people get offended when others from one side share their differneces, then there's no need talking on others being respected in their differences of observance at all - for there is already an assumption (counter to what's said) that ALL look the same in observation.

Which side gets favor when offense happens is what others are discussing - do you take up the side of others feeling that believers should meet together on Shabbat as a synagogue ...or do you take up the side that says you should stay at home with your family (in honor of the Torah) when Sabbath occurs? If one side is offended at the other - and yet BOTH sides study the Torah/want to honor it - do you claim it's automatically the case one side is looking for "loopholes" because another disagrees with how things are to be played out? The same thing goes for a host of other issues.....and so long as that's not spelled out clearly outside of "Don't offend" - it does nothing but leave others confused......especially when the main ones "offended" never learn to respect differences or suspect the WORSE of anyone disagreeing rather than honoring the SoP.

When other Messianics are talking amongst themselves on why one group considers something to be Kosher and another says (in their own threads) what they enjoy as Kosher, there's an obvious disagreement - and respect would be for others to NOT go into threads where others talk on one form of kosher they disagree with....and instead stay in those threads where they do agree. However, it is problematic when you disagree with one form of kosher - jump into that thread pertaining to it - and then claim others "offended you" for sharing.

How are things to be done practically - by both sides?

How can one LOGICALLY say that we are all on differing levels of observance - and yet always be offended when others share where they differ? That is what many Messianic Jews/Gentiles havbe been discussing for years with regards to the SoP: Either we respect each other in our differences and talk to those we agree with - or we don't ..and then go into other threads with others we never agreed with in the first place.

So perhaps some clear cut examples of how discussion on Torah Observance are necessary - if wanting to have differing levels of Messianics present and really wanting diversity of all in MJism here when it comes to God's Law - and clear cut examples of where things were pushed that should not have been. On BOTH sides of the camps rather than one.


Wen in the Catholic forum, others who are there don't bring up things such as idol worship for Liturgy. On the same token, other Catholics present who do enjoy liturgy DON'T say to other Catholics who've been there long-term that they are wrong for loving Eastern Rite Catholic Liturgy because they themselves are Roman Latin Rite Catholics...for there have always been other Catholics present who do love Liturgy from an Eastern Catholic perspective - and those for Eastern Catholic perspectices talk amongst one another rather than go into the Roman Latin Rite threads/bash them - and the two camps learn to live together rather than have one side say that liturgy is not accepted on the forums because they (in their select group out of many other Catholics) don't like it - even though it has already been the case that other Catholics have long accepted it/talked on it.

Excellent comparison to different rites in the catholic sphere. They are all practicing Catholics, in various forms.

 

[Avodat]

Following our annual summer rage about rules, the SoP + all the decisions now being made, and the contradictory comments in other threads about applying the rules, etc are just causing total chaos at the moment.

Can we please have a post from the Mods setting out all these agreed variations and ad-hoc rulings, please?

In particular can we have, as asked for previously, a definition of what the term 'Member' means - how do we define who is, and who is not, a Member of any given forum? This definition is crucial to the problems we appear to have.

 

[Norbert L]

Following our annual summer rage about rules, the SoP + all the decisions now being made, and the contradictory comments in other threads about applying the rules, etc are just causing total chaos at the moment.

Can we please have a post from the Mods setting out all these agreed variations and ad-hoc rulings, please?

In particular can we have, as asked for previously, a definition of what the term 'Member' means - how do we define who is, and who is not, a Member of any given forum? This definition is crucial to the problems we appear to have.

What about trying to look at it from the administrators point view, who is somewhat comparable to a modern day ruler of the synagogue? Will it allow them to maintain goodwill among a larger CF community and the responsibility they have towards it? Or will it allow regular members to act like an Absalom, trying to generate a community consensus that their kings aren't doing their job right?

Sometimes less rules is more ruling and people will either trust Tishri1 or not.

 

[Avodat]

What about trying to look at it from the administrators point view, who is somewhat comparable to a modern day ruler of the synagogue? Will it allow them to maintain goodwill among a larger CF community and the responsibility they have towards it? Or will it allow regular members to act like an Absalom, trying to generate a community consensus that their kings aren't doing their job right?

Sometimes less rules is more ruling and people will either trust Tishri1 or not.

No problem - but as you use the word 'Member' how is it to be defined on here? We cannot check who is, and who is not circumcised, nor who is or is not a Messianic, because we accept that all see the Messianic belief in different ways - that is why we have the rules that set out that variance should be accepted on some issues!

If we continue using rules that are based on being a 'Member', you have to be able to define who is a Member - it is not difficult to understand that concept. As I have said before, if there is no definition of 'Member' and icons do actually mean anything significant why do we bother to use icons or to demand that only Members can debate or teach!

What I've said is no different to what you are implying so I do not really understand your comments. So, go ahead and ditch the word 'Member' as it seems to mean nothing at all, and ditch icons because we are constantly being told that they mean nothing at all as to who can and who cannot teach or debate on these fora. Ditch the red button because we have to deal with infringements by PM's by and large. Ditch the phrase 'posting in fellowship' because, again, no one knows what it actually means!

 

[sevengreenbeans]

I've been trying to come up with suggestions for adding an amendment to cover the non-Trinitarian Messianic, but after the thread 'What is a non-Trinitarian Messianic?', I'm afraid it's become a lost cause. Those within the "non-Trinitarian icon" camp have so many differing views on what it is to be non-Trinitarian and not many holding the icon could agree with one another on what it means! Those who come up with the rules, SoP, etc., have their job cut out for them. It's difficult to umbrella, when there will always be those who stand out in the rain.