Icons and the last few years on CF

[Tishri1]

I haven't been here all that long, I realize. But the main problem I saw recently, and the main complaint, was the influx of people either with the wrong icon (in their case some kind of Messianic icon) or a wrong icon (a mainstream icon) teaching, debating, asking questions designed to either cause arguments or arguments camouflaged with a question mark.

I'm not a believer in coincidences on the scale of this "mainstream scourge" we just experienced. I am one who attends a mainstream church every Sunday (AoG), and everyone there knows I am Messianic. Everyone here knows I attend there regularly, and I've never experienced any censuring for this. There are also some mainstream posters and Jewish posters whose input here is valued despite having an "incorrect" faith icon.

I'd say your problem is more the dishonesty of some who hold decidedly mainstream views coming here under any guise and disrupting the forum.

Dan C

regardless of icon , the content of their post if they are teaching and debating ,should always be MJ centric. Of course two MJs , three opinions always comes to play but we do have a few points of interest that never change and those being Torah Observance( all MJs are Torah positive and practice to some degree.... No debating this fact or teaching non observance)

And lets see we also have the Trinity as a no debate article

So regardless of icon those are lines in the sand

People reading this:
If you are an MJ who doesn't believe these two items no problem but please stay out of threads or refrain from sharing your opinion or others opinions on those subjects in order to keep the peace here
Thanks

 

[anisavta]

How do we stop people from beginning new threads such as this one What is a Non-Trinitarian Messianic?
This invites the kind of problems we are addressing. Our mods don't step in until a thread is already in full barroom brawl and then seem to clean out the good with the bad.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Originally Posted by Lulav

Please start with the offender in Post 77, I have cataloged almost two Dozen posts where they constantly spam this forum with that anti-jewish link .
​

What was anti-Jewish about it?

I second that.

Why?





.

 

[Chaplain David]

How do we stop people from beginning new threads such as this one What is a Non-Trinitarian Messianic?
This invites the kind of problems we are addressing. Our mods don't step in until a thread is already in full barroom brawl and then seem to clean out the good with the bad.

Hi,

If you have what you consider to be a legitimate rule violation it can be reported. There is a bit of a lag time before the posts are actioned however because of lots of reports in the que.

If you see an immediate need another thing that can be done is pm'ing a mod, supervisor or admin.

I will always try to help if I can but I'm not a mod or admin. So if there's a problem I'll have to consult with one or the other.

Faithfully,
CH Sacerdote

 

[annier]

Things would improve considerably if we could stop having ad-hoc 'changes' to the rules by decisions that are buried in a thread, with the hope that people might see them!

As far as I am concerned The Rules consist only of the SoP and SoF as shown in the sticky - ad-hoc 'changes' do not apply unless and until they appear there.

This is only fair and right Avodat.
Even though I disagree with only one forum, as blatantly misrepresenative of torah positive and unfair, I do agree whole heartedly with you here.

 

[HannibalFlavius]

What was anti-Jewish about it?
Why?





.

I love ya Lamb, Think I'll throw ya about 2000 blessings seein as how I'm so rich.

 

[visionary]

What was anti-Jewish about it?
Why? .

You would have to see it through our eyes to understand the insult.

 

[Rachel Rachel]

Here's the tough thing for people like me.
At my former forum, I was treated badly because I was too Messianic. I'm basically being told by a couple of people here to take a hike because I'm not Messianic enough.

 

[visionary]

Here's the tough thing for people like me.
At my former forum, I was treated badly because I was too Messianic. I'm basically being told by a couple of people here to take a hike because I'm not Messianic enough.

It is with anything, anywhere, at any time, you just can not please everyone... Be content with pleasing our Mssiah Yeshua.. He is the only one who really counts.

 

[dnc101]

Here's the tough thing for people like me.
At my former forum, I was treated badly because I was too Messianic. I'm basically being told by a couple of people here to take a hike because I'm not Messianic enough.

Actually, you're not. Usually there is no problem with posters who come and ask questions genuinely looking for answers- at least from since I've been here. But when there is a sudden influx of posters touting the same ideologies we have (mostly) rejected as false, people like you tend to get caught up in the melee. As I've said several times, it's not your faith icon but what you bring here that counts; and generally that is the predominant view I've seen here. So just hang in there until things settle out, which they already are really, and I think you'll be ok.

Dan C

 

[HannibalFlavius]

Here's the tough thing for people like me.
At my former forum, I was treated badly because I was too Messianic. I'm basically being told by a couple of people here to take a hike because I'm not Messianic enough.

Love you too Rachel!

Think I'll just throw you 700 blessings!

 

[Gxg (G²)]

Here's the tough thing for people like me.
At my former forum, I was treated badly because I was too Messianic. I'm basically being told by a couple of people here to take a hike because I'm not Messianic enough.

Seeing and remembering all of the battles that took place, I'd not let anyone sweat you on issues which were never yours to deal with to begin with - and technically, what you are about is what is a MAJOR part of the forum when it comes to those known as Bridge Builders: folks who are seeking to be that bridge between the Church and the Jewish Nation, or who may be seeking help in building a bridge within their own family , struggling to live between a chasm of two faiths.


There are plenty of long time members who've noted that others such as yourself should not have to contend with people going against the rules in claiming you're not Messianic enough simply because you disagree with others at certain points or don't act uniform - in light of how many disagreements have occurred between even those who often may want to do what Sister Tishri warned against with the witch hunts.

Some of it is similar to the dynamic of having someone in the neighborhood entrance saying to others "We don't want your kind here!!!" when the fact is that there are numerous others in the neighborhood who've long disagreed and actually welcome the people seeking a home. You learn to move past people who don't want you and go for those who do since they are a part of the neighborhood..

And when there is a sudden rise of people saying the same things which most other members have long disagreed with historically - it tends to lead to people getting the wrong impressions where there was never any need. What matters is your heart - if it's for God's Law and for His People...and for His Kingdom - so be who you are, what the Lord made you to be..and be easy. Others support you/love you and I've been glad seeing a lot of the things you've said pertaining to living life for Messiah ....

There's not nearly enough support going on amongst Messianics because focus is continually on trying to "police" others based on preferences that seem to shift often - and people thinking that someone's "less Messianic" than they are because of the fact that they differ - but that's not even living out the HEART of what Messianic Jews/Messianic Gentiles did in the early Body of Christ. Seriously, How is it we can have sharp debates about what aspect of the Torah one is to keep --- and yet seldom have discussions where we all encourage one another/ask for how we can pray for each other in where we're at in life? How is it we can easily go to war with one another over Kosher/the level one's comfortable with---and yet never discuss REAL life issues such as whether or not we're reaching the homeless/those trapped in poverty, evangelism amongsts prostitutes/those addicted to drugs, movies we've seen and how to reach out to young adults amongst a host of other things we all see in everyday life? Since when did those things become "less Messianic" and not worthy to focus on?

This is what we all should strive for:

Acts 2:41-43

The Fellowship of the Believers

42They devoted themselves to the apostles' teaching and to the fellowship, to the breaking of bread and to prayer. 43Everyone was filled with awe, and many wonders and miraculous signs were done by the apostles. 44All the believers were together and had everything in common. 45Selling their possessions and goods, they gave to anyone as he had need. 46Every day they continued to meet together in the temple courts. They broke bread in their homes and ate together with glad and sincere hearts, 47praising God and enjoying the favor of all the people.

Acts 13:52
And the disciples were filled with joy and with the Holy Spirit.

Romans 15:4-6 5May the God who gives endurance and encouragement give you a spirit of unity among yourselves as you follow Christ Jesus, 6so that with one heart and mouth you may glorify the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.
​

Ephesians 4:2-4/
2Be completely humble and gentle; be patient, bearing with one another in love. 3Make every effort to keep the unity of the Spirit through the bond of peace.

Ephesians 4:29-31/
29Do not let any unwholesome talk come out of your mouths, but only what is helpful for building others up according to their needs, that it may benefit those who listen. 30And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, with whom you were sealed for the day of redemption. 31Get rid of all bitterness, rage and anger, brawling and slander, along with every form of malice.

Ephesians 5:17-19 /
17Therefore do not be foolish, but understand what the Lord's will is. 18Do not get drunk on wine, which leads to debauchery. Instead, be filled with the Spirit. 19Speak to one another with psalms, hymns and spiritual songs. Sing and make music in your heart to the Lord, 20always giving thanks to God the Father for everything, in the name of our Lord
Jesus Christ.

​

Many don't know how to fellowship together in simplicity. Shoot, many of us can never laugh together----so doubtful many times that one can ever expect growing with each other together. Some things would be cured if we could all learn to not take things so seriously at times....and just chill, as many times it's really not that deep. And when it comes to being light-hearted, it's amazing to see how much more easier it is to get through life...and with people...

Proverbs 15:13
A happy heart makes the face cheerful, but heartache crushes the spirit.

Proverbs 15:15
All the days of the oppressed are wretched, but the cheerful heart has a continual feast

Proverbs 15:30
A cheerful look brings joy to the heart, and good news gives health to the bones.

Proverbs 17:22
A cheerful heart is good medicine, but a crushed spirit dries up the bones.
​

It's amazing much of a difference getting to know/walk with people can change many of the things others have often thought were never able to be changed...

Differences should go to the wayside when one is in need of comfort. And we should be rejoicing with those who rejoice despite our differences.

The fact that we're able to truly lift one another up via prayer/intercession and break bread makes a significant difference as well. For really, how many things do we have to agree on before we can actually lift one another up as we're commanded to in the Word ( Colossians 4:11-13 / /Ephesians 6:17-19/ , John 13:1 , John 17:20-22 //etc)? How many things do we have to agree with each other on before we can worship the Lord through our interactions by showing we're concerned for the parts of His body---and choosing to "weep with those who weep/rejoice with those who rejoice" ( Romans 12:14-16 /1 Corinthians 12:25-27/ )?

Galatians 6:2
Carry each other's burdens, and in this way you will fulfill the law of Christ.

Psalm 133

A song of ascents. Of David.

1 How good and pleasant it is
when brothers live together in unity! 2 It is like precious oil poured on the head, running down on the beard,
running down on Aaron's beard,
down upon the collar of his robes.
3 It is as if the dew of Hermon
were falling on Mount Zion.

1 Thessalonians 5:11
Therefore encourage one another and build each other up, just as in fact you are doing.
1 Thessalonians 5:10-12

Hebrews 10:24-26/
4And let us consider how we may spur one another on toward love and good deeds. 25Let us not give up meeting together, as some are in the habit of doing, but let us encourage one another—and all the more as you see the Day approaching.
​

Shalom...

 

[Gxg (G²)]

Love you too Rachel!

Think I'll just throw you 700 blessings!

 

[Avodat]

When we had these problems a while ago, I pointed out that the 'rules' were ambiguous - what was clearly required in one part of the rules, was NOT shown as a requirement in another part, and visitors were not slow in taking advantage of that sloppiness in the rules. Tishri has addressed this issue and the rules are now consistent and crystal clear in saying that non-Members may not teach or debate on MJ fora.

The ambiguity in the rules that is causing all the problems today is in interpreting what the word 'Member' actually means. Who is a Member and how do we spot those who are not?

If an icon is NOT to be used as a means of defining Membership of these fora, we need another means to do so - without a clear, agreed, defining statement of just what constitutes Membership these annual rages will continue. I would suggest that we require those who consider themselves Messianics to adopt one of the Messianic icons, with those who are Messianic but work in the Church (as several of us do) making that clear in some way - in the profile or in one's signature. I know this is the reverse of an apparent ad-hoc addition to the rules, but it is far better to be consistent with icons (if we really have to use them) that are a ready and useful indication of where a person is coming from, than for visitors to see a whole raft of crosses being accepted as 'Messianic' when they come here. If were new, here, as a Christian, I would feel quite happy to jump in here and spout non- Messianic teachings because there are plenty of other 'Christians' on here, according to their icons. And if I were told I have a cross and cannot teach or debate I would argue vociferously that others do on these fora, why can't I? By then, it is a bit late to say that all those with cross icons have the word Messianic somewhere in each post - thus we also get the charge of those who appear favoured (whether wrongly or rightly). If icons really mean very little but cause so much trouble, may I ask why we bother to use them; we seem to have a number of other 'icons' people place near their names and maybe some of these could be used to indicate a duality of commitment for those who are Messianic and who work in the Church, if we have to use such things?

Therein is the problem we face - we need to define, clearly, what the term 'Member' means or we must continue with people trying to drive a coach and horses through the rules and creating havoc among us. It is NOT people that are at fault, whether visitors or 'residents' - it is the ambiguity that is perpetuated by rules that lack definition of key terms. Sort that and all of us will know where we stand!

 

[annier]

Here's the tough thing for people like me.
At my former forum, I was treated badly because I was too Messianic. I'm basically being told by a couple of people here to take a hike because I'm not Messianic enough.

There is not a broad enough acceptance of Messianic here IMO.

 

[cyberlizard]

Hi,

It seems a few here are concerned about members who attend both MJ congregations and another church of a different denomination

Everyone is wondering if this is ok?

It is and staff have been operating this way for years at CF

How we keep the confusion down, is to have the member either tote the MJ icon or have their title announce that they are MJ or their siggy.

Bottom line is somewhere in view of all their posts , we need to be able to identify them as MJ

that would sum me up. Messianic by lifestyle and doctrine, charismatic as there is a lack of congregations to attend in the UK.

But i think my signature line may be a give away as well.


Steve

 

[Gxg (G²)]

that would sum me up. Messianic by lifestyle and doctrine, charismatic as there is a lack of congregations to attend in the UK.

But i think my signature line may be a give away as well.


Steve

I thought your signature line was good enough as it was - plus seeing where you often discuss and what you've shared even as you had a Messianic icon (with regards to the Charismatic side of things/showing that to be pertinent to you as well). Several others have noted the same - one of them being Sister JRSut1000 (who posts a lot over on GT more so than this forum) and has noted connection with the Charismatic movement since there are many Messianics who are Charismatic in their view of the Gifts/support the Charismatic movement ( more she shared here in #1 /#1 #4#5#10 #12 #16/ #36 #154 ) - both movements intersecting with each other when considering development.

Personally, I don't do (nor care for ) 'icons of convenience' - although I think they should be banned/users doing so removed from CF for awhile until they prove themselves. It's why someone just getting a Messianic icon doesn't do much if they say they don't love study of God's Torah or say it is dumb - or don't a Messianic fellowship/synagogue and work with Messianics. Where they don't seek to be Torah Positive and value the Jewish people, that's when you back away. But outside of that, people should not trip. When I had a Messianic icon for years, I tried to clarify things with my BIO and Signature as it concerns my heart for OO (Oriential Orthodox) - but in having an OO Icon, my signature remained the same as it was for years and my bio as well.....and the things I shared.

 

[Chaplain David]

For me, that's the point. I don't need walls of words and doctrinal arguments. I don't need every post to be a springboard for someone's dogma. That I can get from my own Google exploration. I enjoy meeting others from all over the world who are either Normative or Messianic Jews or Gentiles who identify with Israel.

Coming here as I did several years ago, asking quesions and fellowshipping with the members I not only gained insight into Messianic Judaism, but a new appreciation for Torah.

 

[mishkan]

Here's the tough thing for people like me.
At my former forum, I was treated badly because I was too Messianic. I'm basically being told by a couple of people here to take a hike because I'm not Messianic enough.

Speaking for myself, I've found you to be a pleasant addition to the forum. I doubt anyone has had a serious problem with your postings.

Shalom, shalom, Rachel Rachel.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Originally Posted by LittleLambofJesus

What was anti-Jewish about it?
Why? .
​

You would have to see it through our eyes to understand the insult.

How is it an insult in your eyes?
Didn't Jesus often insult the Jewish rulers in the Gospels?

Luke 11:
43 "Woe to you Pharisees! For you love the best seat in the synagogues and greetings in the marketplaces".
45 One of the lawyers answered him, "Teacher! in saying these things you insult us also."

.