I'm very interested in becoming a Lutheran.

[Luther073082]

How can such disgusting things exist? I can't believe how much times have changed in just the short period I've been alive. I'm only 25, but when I was a kid, if you said the words "Rape is bad", everyone agreed with you--always.

Now, I actually have to DEFEND my position that rape is bad. I literally got into a 20 page forum war with people who defend that rape can "occasionally" be sexy.

And these were all women, too. I promise you that I'm not making this up.

When did the world become a place where "rape is wrong" has become just another opinion?

I almost wonder if they are talking about some sort of fake "role playing" type of thing which is to real rape what children playing with toy guns going "bang bang you're dead!" is to a real war.

 

[Parogar]

Okay, we're on page 39 of this thread now. I've read through every single post again just now, and I've spent the last week in deep thought. I've had a very open mind while listening to everything all of you have been saying, and I have DEEPLY considered each thing, and I am now sure what I believe.

Having read the bible very recently, I am now convinced that the new testament is meant to be taken literally, but not the old testament. I listened hard to all that many of you wonderful people have told me, and I really did consider every single aspect.

But what really won it out for me were the words of Christ. He said that the way to salvation is through him and through him alone. I'm taking that bit seriously.

He didn't say, "Salvation is through me and through me alone...almost. You also must believe in a literal account of creation and ..." (you get my point).

I don't believe in condemning homosexuality, because Jesus did not mention it--the old testament did. But in the very same chapter that homosexuality is called "an abomination", the OT also says that people shouldn't wear more than one type of fabric, and that women should marry their rapists.

But none of that even matters--this is what I'm getting at. I am now convinced that bickering over laws meant for ancient desert people was not the message Jesus came here to deliver. I've come to this decision after speaking to many of you and doing a lot of my own research over these past few months.

I am now convinced that by putting our hope and faith in Jesus Christ, we can be given salvation even if we don't believe in the literal account of creation.

I'm not saying any of you are wrong. Truly, I'm not. What I'm saying is that I believe Jesus will accept me even if I am not convinced in the veracity of the book of genesis. And you know what else? Not believing in genesis might actually BE a sin! I could very well be committing a sin by denying it.

But if there is one thing the people on this forum have taught me above all, it's this: I wouldn't even need Jesus if I were the type of person who didn't sin.

So, I am going to begin the process of finding Jesus, but I'm going to do it without any faith or belief in the Old Testament. If this in and of itself is a sin, then that makes me a sinner--which is exactly the reason why I must begin the process of finding Jesus in the first place!

The fact of the matter is that I can't force myself to believe in the OT. As far as I'm concerned, the only goodness ... the only true act of love, kindness, and altruism I've seen the bible have come from Christ. I literally find myself disgusted and at odds with every other character in the bible, especially Judas and Paul.

I also don't like Moses, Abraham, Joseph, Noah, Adam, Eve ... I don't like any of them.

 

[LilLamb219]

It looks like Jesus found you...we don't go looking for Him, but we can seek Him once He's found us to increase our faith.

It sounds like you have been given faith to believe...you might want to change that icon of yours

We're all on a journey. That's all I'll say about the rest of your post because I don't want to get into any debating (again LOL).

 

[Aibrean]

I don't believe in condemning homosexuality, because Jesus did not mention it--the old testament did. But in the very same chapter that homosexuality is called "an abomination", the OT also says that people shouldn't wear more than one type of fabric, and that women should marry their rapists.

Well, Jesus might have mentioned it but it's not in the Bible as red letters.

You do say you believe the NT to be taken literally...

Have a look at this (Romans 1:26-32):

For this reason God gave them up to dishonorable passions. For their women exchanged natural relations for those that are contrary to nature; and the men likewise gave up natural relations with women and were consumed with passion for one another, men committing shameless acts with men and receiving in themselves the due penalty for their error.

And since they did not see fit to acknowledge God, God gave them up to a debased mind to do what ought not to be done. They were filled with all manner of unrighteousness, evil, covetousness, malice. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, maliciousness. They are gossips, slanderers, haters of God, insolent, haughty, boastful, inventors of evil, disobedient to parents,foolish, faithless, heartless, ruthless. Though they know God's righteous decree that those who practice such things deserve to die, they not only do them but give approval to those who practice them.

Homosexuality is not natural. It's not in God's will. Anything contrary to the will of God is sin.

 

[DaRev]

Okay, we're on page 39 of this thread now. I've read through every single post again just now, and I've spent the last week in deep thought. I've had a very open mind while listening to everything all of you have been saying, and I have DEEPLY considered each thing, and I am now sure what I believe.

Having read the bible very recently, I am now convinced that the new testament is meant to be taken literally, but not the old testament. I listened hard to all that many of you wonderful people have told me, and I really did consider every single aspect.

But what really won it out for me were the words of Christ. He said that the way to salvation is through him and through him alone. I'm taking that bit seriously.

He didn't say, "Salvation is through me and through me alone...almost. You also must believe in a literal account of creation and ..." (you get my point).

I don't believe in condemning homosexuality, because Jesus did not mention it--the old testament did. But in the very same chapter that homosexuality is called "an abomination", the OT also says that people shouldn't wear more than one type of fabric, and that women should marry their rapists.

But none of that even matters--this is what I'm getting at. I am now convinced that bickering over laws meant for ancient desert people was not the message Jesus came here to deliver. I've come to this decision after speaking to many of you and doing a lot of my own research over these past few months.

I am now convinced that by putting our hope and faith in Jesus Christ, we can be given salvation even if we don't believe in the literal account of creation.

I'm not saying any of you are wrong. Truly, I'm not. What I'm saying is that I believe Jesus will accept me even if I am not convinced in the veracity of the book of genesis. And you know what else? Not believing in genesis might actually BE a sin! I could very well be committing a sin by denying it.

But if there is one thing the people on this forum have taught me above all, it's this: I wouldn't even need Jesus if I were the type of person who didn't sin.

So, I am going to begin the process of finding Jesus, but I'm going to do it without any faith or belief in the Old Testament. If this in and of itself is a sin, then that makes me a sinner--which is exactly the reason why I must begin the process of finding Jesus in the first place!

The fact of the matter is that I can't force myself to believe in the OT. As far as I'm concerned, the only goodness ... the only true act of love, kindness, and altruism I've seen the bible have come from Christ. I literally find myself disgusted and at odds with every other character in the bible, especially Judas and Paul.

I also don't like Moses, Abraham, Joseph, Noah, Adam, Eve ... I don't like any of them.

Well, I am saddened. It looks like you have created a faith of your own design. It is certainly not the Christian faith, nor belief in the one true God revealed to us in the inspired, inerrant word of God. You have basically created a character and named him Jesus, and now you place your faith in him or it or whatever. It most certainly isn't the true Jesus revealed in the inspired, inerrant word of God.

We can't pick and choose what to believe and what to reject. If the Holy Spirit has indeed convicted you, then you would believe the word of God and be open and receptive to learning His word and more about what it really says. You don't want to do that. You want to call the shots, make the rules, and dictate the terms. That's not Christianity, and such "faith" will not save you.

May God have mercy on you, and may He eventually turn your heart to His truth and away from the falsehood you now embrace.

I'm sorry if this is not what you want to hear, but there are times when the law must be applied. It hurts, but it's meant to in order for us to see our sin and repent of it.

And shame on those on this forum who have encouraged you in this sham. I am extremely disheartened with them as well.

 

[Cappadocious]

he only true act of love, kindness, and altruism I've seen the bible have come from Christ.

You only skimmed the Scriptures if you don't think those things shone forth through others in the Scriptures.

 

[Esdra]

Dear parogar,

I'm really happy and grateful that Jesus's found You. But it isn't that easy as you seem to think.
You shouldn't condemn the ot, it's often the key to the nt. And the nt is full of quotes of the ot.
It's great if you start with the new testament, but please also read the ot. Maybe a bible reading plan would be helpful for you? There're dozens of them in the internet.

And please find a Lutheran pastor and visit the church services in his parish
The pastor will be happy to help you on your way as a disciple of Christ.
And as Lutherans have liturgical services, you'll hear passages of the bible every sunday (and of course also from the ot)
And change your cf icon to seeker or Christian seeker, if you wish.

God bless you on your journey with Christ,
Esdra

 

[Parogar]

Well, Jesus might have mentioned it but it's not in the Bible as red letters.

You do say you believe the NT to be taken literally...

Have a look at this (Romans 1:26-32):

For this reason God gave them up to dishonorable passions. For their women exchanged natural relations for those that are contrary to nature; and the men likewise gave up natural relations with women and were consumed with passion for one another, men committing shameless acts with men and receiving in themselves the due penalty for their error.

And since they did not see fit to acknowledge God, God gave them up to a debased mind to do what ought not to be done. They were filled with all manner of unrighteousness, evil, covetousness, malice. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, maliciousness. They are gossips, slanderers, haters of God, insolent, haughty, boastful, inventors of evil, disobedient to parents,foolish, faithless, heartless, ruthless. Though they know God's righteous decree that those who practice such things deserve to die, they not only do them but give approval to those who practice them.

Homosexuality is not natural. It's not in God's will. Anything contrary to the will of God is sin.

I thought that was just what Paul wrote in a letter? I don't think Jesus actually said that, or was being quoted as saying that.

 

[Parogar]

Well, I am saddened. It looks like you have created a faith of your own design. It is certainly not the Christian faith, nor belief in the one true God revealed to us in the inspired, inerrant word of God. You have basically created a character and named him Jesus, and now you place your faith in him or it or whatever. It most certainly isn't the true Jesus revealed in the inspired, inerrant word of God.

We can't pick and choose what to believe and what to reject. If the Holy Spirit has indeed convicted you, then you would believe the word of God and be open and receptive to learning His word and more about what it really says. You don't want to do that. You want to call the shots, make the rules, and dictate the terms. That's not Christianity, and such "faith" will not save you.

May God have mercy on you, and may He eventually turn your heart to His truth and away from the falsehood you now embrace.

I'm sorry if this is not what you want to hear, but there are times when the law must be applied. It hurts, but it's meant to in order for us to see our sin and repent of it.

And shame on those on this forum who have encouraged you in this sham. I am extremely disheartened with them as well.

What falsehood? I think you're being a little bit dramatic here, no? I haven't made up a character and named him Jesus.

And to be completely honest, this kind of attitude is primarily what kept me from Jesus for the longest time. It's this extremist, all-or-nothing approach that is leading people further and further from Christ--myself included.

You're saying that I'm making up my own version of Jesus simply because I don't believe in a literal account of creation?

How can that even be possible?

 

[Parogar]

@DaRev
I have very recently finished reading the bible. Is it not so that Jesus came to us because we are sinners and unable to fulfill the laws of the OT? In essence, had we the power to live our lives in accordance to our God's law, we wouldn't need him, correct?

In the very same chapter of Leviticus that mentions homosexuality as an abomination, it also says that wearing two types of fabric is a sin, that a woman should marry her rapist, and that you must not eat fruit of a tree which is less than three years old.

Now, I'm not God. So I can't personally say why these things are important, and I can't even begin to understand the reasoning behind any of them.

What I can say, however, is that we, as a society, do not have the ability to adhere to these guidelines any longer.

I'm not "making this up." This is in the bible. There wouldn't be a NT if we could.

Also, I don't believe anyone really takes the OT literally--they just think they do.

The OT says that snakes eat dirt every day of their life? (They don't) It also says the earth is a circle, when we know it's a sphere.

Much of the language that is used is meant to be figurative. Are we really supposed to stone children to death when they disobey us?

I'm not calling God a liar. Far from it! I'm saying that the OT is a book that can't be followed and has been translated so many times that we can't be sure the original meaning has been preserved 100%

 

[Luther073082]

The problem I see in this, and we see it a lot, not just from you is that you are creating a savior who came to save people from a non-existent sin.

The gospels don't go into great depth about what is sin and what is not sin. There are a few things they cover but not very much. The reason for that is because the gospels are there to bring the good news of a savior to the people.

When you ignore the other parts, especially Paul you are ignoring the moral requirements of being a christian, ignoring the way that churches are suppose to be organized.

It creates a situation where you have a savior that doesn't have sin to save people from. Because there are very few things that you could firmly establish as sin based upon just the gospels.

 

[PreachersWife2004]

I thought that was just what Paul wrote in a letter? I don't think Jesus actually said that, or was being quoted as saying that.

All scripture is God-breathed.

Paul was divinely inspired when he wrote.

Jesus talked of sexual immorality, where homosexuality falls under.

 

[DaRev]

@DaRev
I have very recently finished reading the bible. Is it not so that Jesus came to us because we are sinners and unable to fulfill the laws of the OT? In essence, had we the power to live our lives in accordance to our God's law, we wouldn't need him, correct?

But how do you know that if you have systematically rejected all of the OT, which includes the 10 Commandments, the moral law, the "mirror" that shows us our sinfulness? How do you know that if it's all untrue and to be rejected? How do you even know what sin is since you have rejected the very word of God that tells you that you are a sinner in need of a Savior?

In the very same chapter of Leviticus that mentions homosexuality as an abomination, it also says that wearing two types of fabric is a sin, that a woman should marry her rapist, and that you must not eat fruit of a tree which is less than three years old.

There is a difference between the moral law, civil law, and ceremonial law. Not only does Leviticus speak against homosexuality, so does the 6th Commandment, and St. Paul's epistles. It is a sin that is upheld throughout Scripture. But, you have rejected 90% of God's inspired, inerrant word, so how do you know what you claim to be "the truth"? You don't.

Now, I'm not God. So I can't personally say why these things are important, and I can't even begin to understand the reasoning behind any of them.

So instead of entering a Bible study to learn why they are important, you just dismiss them as untrue and unimportant. You decided that they mean nothing so you don't need to concern yourself with them.

What I can say, however, is that we, as a society, do not have the ability to adhere to these guidelines any longer.

As Christians, we are in the world, not of the world. What "society" does and does not adhere to has no bearing on the Church. We are guided by a higher standard, a standard that is revealed in all of God's inspired and inerrant word. And, no, even the Church can't adhere to them as God desires. That's why He sent a Savior.

I'm not "making this up." This is in the bible. There wouldn't be a NT if we could.

But you've rejected the majority of God's word. Your "belief" is not based on reality. You are indeed making it up as you go along.

Also, I don't believe anyone really takes the OT literally--they just think they do.

The OT says that snakes eat dirt every day of their life? (They don't) It also says the earth is a circle, when we know it's a sphere.

Much of the language that is used is meant to be figurative. Are we really supposed to stone children to death when they disobey us?

Context is king! Have you ever read a newspaper article? Or a science textbook? Or an encyclopedia entry? Do you honestly believe that those things never use analogy or metaphors to get a point across?
And how do you know what commands in the OT are given to the Church and which one's are meant for OT Israel? How do you know which of the laws have been fulfilled by the coming of Christ and which ones are applicable to the Church? You've systematically dismissed the vast majority of Scripture. Your "faith" is hollow and void. A building will not stand if you undermine the foundation and remove the footing. That's what you have done. You have rejected the very basis of the Christian faith. What you have left is nothing but rubble.

I'm not calling God a liar. Far from it! I'm saying that the OT is a book that can't be followed and has been translated so many times that we can't be sure the original meaning has been preserved 100%

Again, you demonstrate your ignorance. The OT was written in Hebrew. There are numerous copies of the Hebrew texts, and guess what? They all agree! What does that mean? We know what the OT writers wrote. English translations are made from the Hebrew texts. We know exactly what the original meaning is. We also know, from actually reading them, what parts are historical and which parts are applicable to the Church. By reading the texts in the context of the Scriptures as a whole, we know what each part means.

Again, your "faith" is not based upon the word of God but upon your own constructed version of reality. Such "faith" is not real and will not save you. Stop rejecting the true word of God. Stop dismissing our attempts to teach you the truth so you can repent of this grievous sin and seek God's forgiveness.

 

[DaRev]

I thought that was just what Paul wrote in a letter? I don't think Jesus actually said that, or was being quoted as saying that.

Who is the Author of the NT? God.
Who is the Author of the OT? God. (*gasp!*)
Who is Jesus? God.

Now, who is the Author of St. Paul's epistles?

 

[Parogar]

But how do you know that if you have systematically rejected all of the OT, which includes the 10 Commandments, the moral law, the "mirror" that shows us our sinfulness? How do you know that if it's all untrue and to be rejected? How do you even know what sin is since you have rejected the very word of God that tells you that you are a sinner in need of a Savior?



There is a difference between the moral law, civil law, and ceremonial law. Not only does Leviticus speak against homosexuality, so does the 6th Commandment, and St. Paul's epistles. It is a sin that is upheld throughout Scripture. But, you have rejected 90% of God's inspired, inerrant word, so how do you know what you claim to be "the truth"? You don't.



So instead of entering a Bible study to learn why they are important, you just dismiss them as untrue and unimportant. You decided that they mean nothing so you don't need to concern yourself with them.



As Christians, we are in the world, not of the world. What "society" does and does not adhere to has no bearing on the Church. We are guided by a higher standard, a standard that is revealed in all of God's inspired and inerrant word. And, no, even the Church can't adhere to them as God desires. That's why He sent a Savior.



But you've rejected the majority of God's word. Your "belief" is not based on reality. You are indeed making it up as you go along.



Context is king! Have you ever read a newspaper article? Or a science textbook? Or an encyclopedia entry? Do you honestly believe that those things never use analogy or metaphors to get a point across?
And how do you know what commands in the OT are given to the Church and which one's are meant for OT Israel? How do you know which of the laws have been fulfilled by the coming of Christ and which ones are applicable to the Church? You've systematically dismissed the vast majority of Scripture. Your "faith" is hollow and void. A building will not stand if you undermine the foundation and remove the footing. That's what you have done. You have rejected the very basis of the Christian faith. What you have left is nothing but rubble.



Again, you demonstrate your ignorance. The OT was written in Hebrew. There are numerous copies of the Hebrew texts, and guess what? They all agree! What does that mean? We know what the OT writers wrote. English translations are made from the Hebrew texts. We know exactly what the original meaning is. We also know, from actually reading them, what parts are historical and which parts are applicable to the Church. By reading the texts in the context of the Scriptures as a whole, we know what each part means.

Again, your "faith" is not based upon the word of God but upon your own constructed version of reality. Such "faith" is not real and will not save you. Stop rejecting the true word of God. Stop dismissing our attempts to teach you the truth so you can repent of this grievous sin and seek God's forgiveness.

And you claim to do any differently? If we are to take the OT as a direct, literal interpretation, then tell me the last time you stoned a child to death for misbehaving.

Or when was the last time you married a slave? Or had one? When was the last time you killed someone for working on Saturday, as God commanded of Moses?

When was the last time you sacrificed a lamb?

When was the last time you saw a rapist forced to marry the woman he raped?

Let he who is without sin throw the first stone. It's arrogant of you to assume that I am "making things up as I go along." I don't see you following any of these laws, either.

 

[Parogar]

I won't be posting any more in these forums. I won't sit here and be attacked. I'll leave peacefully. If possible, can a mod please delete this thread and/or all of my posts?

 

[PreachersWife2004]

I won't be posting any more in these forums. I won't sit here and be attacked. I'll leave peacefully. If possible, can a mod please delete this thread and/or all of my posts?

No one attacked you. You take harsh words for attack when they are meant to get you to see the folly in what you believe.

Staff will not delete your posts. You'll have to go and edit them out yourself. We can issue you a self-ban if you would like. You wouldn't be able to post at all and if you ever wanted to come back you'd have to start at the Member Services Center.

 

[alexnbethmom]

And you claim to do any differently? If we are to take the OT as a direct, literal interpretation, then tell me the last time you stoned a child to death for misbehaving.

Or when was the last time you married a slave? Or had one? When was the last time you killed someone for working on Saturday, as God commanded of Moses?

When was the last time you sacrificed a lamb?

When was the last time you saw a rapist forced to marry the woman he raped?

Let he who is without sin throw the first stone. It's arrogant of you to assume that I am "making things up as I go along." I don't see you following any of these laws, either.

did you even read what he wrote, i mean seriously?

There is a difference between the moral law, civil law, and ceremonial law. Not only does Leviticus speak against homosexuality, so does the 6th Commandment, and St. Paul's epistles. It is a sin that is upheld throughout Scripture. But, you have rejected 90% of God's inspired, inerrant word, so how do you know what you claim to be "the truth"? You don't.

he doesn't say these things to be a "big meanie" or something - he says them because they are right, and true - and he cares very much about your soul. by rejecting the OT, you are rejecting the true God.

those laws about wearing different fabrics, stoning a child, etc etc etc, were laws that were in place before Jesus came to walk among us, and be sacrificed for our sins. His doing that wiped out the necessity for those other laws. but that also doesn't mean that everything from the OT was wiped out, either - homosexuality falls under moral law, and that still very much applies in the NT, and here and now.

you know, Rev didn't get his "preaching certificate" from a cracker jack box - he went to seminary and earned his Masters of Divinity - he studied ALL of this, ALL OF IT, he is not a stupid man, he does know what he's talking about.

i fully appreciate that you are reaching out, and wanting to come to faith - but you are doing it the wrong way. i have said it before, i will say it again, and again and again if i have to - PLEASE GO SPEAK WITH A PASTOR IN PERSON ABOUT ALL OF THIS!!! PLEASE!!

 

[ThePapist]

The problem I see in this, and we see it a lot, not just from you is that you are creating a savior who came to save people from a non-existent sin.

The gospels don't go into great depth about what is sin and what is not sin. There are a few things they cover but not very much. The reason for that is because the gospels are there to bring the good news of a savior to the people.

When you ignore the other parts, especially Paul you are ignoring the moral requirements of being a christian, ignoring the way that churches are suppose to be organized.

It creates a situation where you have a savior that doesn't have sin to save people from. Because there are very few things that you could firmly establish as sin based upon just the gospels.

You are also ignoring the parts of the epistles that deal with the obligations here on earth to be Christian. It is not just "once saved always saved" but you have to life the lifestyle of God and do good works while here on earth. The epistle of St. James says that "faith without works is dead" and so many Protestants completely ignore this book of the Bible. MARTIN LUTHER HIMSELF EVEN TRIED TO REMOVE IT FROM THE BIBLE when he was doing his whole "cutting and pasting" of Scripture.

God bless you all!

 

[DaRev]

And you claim to do any differently? If we are to take the OT as a direct, literal interpretation, then tell me the last time you stoned a child to death for misbehaving.

Or when was the last time you married a slave? Or had one? When was the last time you killed someone for working on Saturday, as God commanded of Moses?

When was the last time you sacrificed a lamb?

When was the last time you saw a rapist forced to marry the woman he raped?

Let he who is without sin throw the first stone. It's arrogant of you to assume that I am "making things up as I go along." I don't see you following any of these laws, either.

Obviously, you haven't read what I posted. Actually read it this time.
It would be best if you educated yourself before you come into this forum and start dictating what the Scriptures teach. You are embarrassing yourself.

We are trying to help you see the folly of your belief. I take such things very seriously. It saddens me when someone is offered the opportunity to learn and understand what God's word says and truly means, yet they systematically dismiss it because it doesn't mean what they want it to mean.

I know it sounds harsh, but God's word of law is meant to crush us and knock us down. It's only then that we can see the truth and repent, call upon His name, and be saved. That hasn't happened to you yet. I pray it will, but it's going to be painful until you let loose of this false "faith" you embrace.