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Paulianity & the Ravening Wolf

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ananda

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In Genesis chapter 49, Jacob prophesies about the destinies of his sons' descendants. It is well known that Jacob, in Gen 49:10-12, prophesies about the then-(first) coming of Messiah through the tribe of Judah.

Family genealogies was very important to the early Jews, as careful records were one way of ensuring that the leaders could authenticate and verify the arrival of Messiah. The Temple held such a repository of genealogical records.

One of the ways this prophecy points definitively to Yehoshua as Messiah is the fact that the records were intact at the Temple only until its destruction around 70 A.D. Messiah could only be authenticated up until that point, which supports the case that Messiah must have arrived before 70 A.D.

What is less well-known is that Jacob also made a prophecy about the tribe of Benjamin. From Benjamin would arise a ravening wolf who would kill the prey in the search/morning, and then divide the treasure in the darkness/evening (Gen 49:27). This ravening wolf would have to arrive also before the destruction of the Temple's records in 70 A.D.

Who was the ravening wolf? Let's look at other Scripture that gives more detail. Messiah stated that the "ravening wolf" would be a false prophet who falsely appears to be a true disciple (Mt 7:15). The context seems to indicate that this ravening wolf would seduce many to walk his "wide and easy" path to salvation (Mt 7:13,14), and that he would encourage many to abandon obedience to "the will of Messiah's Father" (Mt 7:21-23).

Ezekiel also gives additional information about this ravening wolf and his disciples. They band together to teach men and women to commit treason by leaving their rightful King's rule & commands to become widows, and thus stealing their eternal souls (Eze 22:25) often for private gain (Eze 22:27). They set up their own leadership, violating the King's Law, cast down what is considered holy to the King, mixed holy and clean things with what is profane and unclean. They also abandoned the King's Sabbath, and thus cause dishonor to the King (Eze 22:26). They proclaim and esteem false and lying visions, falsely claiming that YHWH spoke when He did not (Eze 22:28).

Is there an individual in history that fulfilled all of these prophecies? Yes. Paul!

Paul arrived soon after Messiah's ascension and before the destruction of the Temple (Mt 24:1-3). Messiah warned us about him, that we should not be deceived by him (Mt 24:4), and indeed, he deceptively came in Messiah's Name, saying "I represent Messiah" (Mt 24:5).
(Sidenote: Paul caused the desolation of the Temple (Mt 24:15) after disobeying (Acts 21:15) the command of the Holy Spirit who said that he should not go to Jerusalem (Acts 21:4). Paul brought along his disciple, the uncircumcised Gentile Trophimus, with him to Jerusalem. They went into the Temple, and Trophimus, relying upon Paul's doctrines that "circumcision & uncircumcision is nothing", that the "Temple's middle wall was broken" and that "God does not live in temples built by human hands", entered into the Temple and abominated it (cf Eze 44:7). The Messianic Jews of Asia, who were previously taught by Paul (Acts 21:20,21,28), had rejected Paul's message (2Tim 1:15) and Paul's own claims to apostleship (Rev 2:2), and, after witnessing this act of desolation, and zealous for the Torah (Acts 21:20), fought against him (Acts 22:27+). Paul rejected the "old" and confirmed a "new" Covenant with his people (Dan 9:27), and abominated and desolated the Temple (Dan 9:27) in fulfillment of Daniel's & Messiah's Mt 24 prophecy.)
In fulfillment of the Gen 49 prophecy, Paul was from the tribe of Benjamin (Rom 11:1, Phl 3:5), and before his alleged "conversion", he persecuted the Messianic believers to the death (Acts 9:1) in his search. After his "conversion", he brought darkness in his attempt to divide the world, allegedly leaving the authentic apostles the circumcised and taking for himself the uncircumcised (Gal 2:8).

Paul gave unwitnessed (Jn 5:31, Mt 18:16) testimony that Messiah appeared to him in visions, allegedly commissioning him as an apostle. Paul advocated departure from YHWH's Covenant and Law, causing his followers to do just that. Paul cast down the importance of YHWH's Sabbath (Rom 14:6, Gal 4:10), and his followers profane it to this day.
They mix the unclean with the clean, such as eating unclean pork (1Cor 8:8 cf Isa 66:17). Paul offered a wide and easy path to salvation ("faith & grace alone without obedience!" Gal 5:1-6, etc.), and caused countless millions to lose their eternal souls. All in fulfillment of the prophecies found in Mt 7 & Eze 22.

Let us heed these words recorded by the Apostle John: "And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues. For her sins have reached unto heaven, and God hath remembered her iniquities." Rev 18:4,5
 
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sdowney717

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Peter acknowledges and confirms Paul as a true apostle while making mention that some of what Paul wrote was hard to understand and the unstable persons twist to their own destruction. Not only Peter also the group of the apostles met with Paul and confirmed Paul in his calling.

So your suggesting those whom God chose, the other apostles, who also wrote the Word for all to read, were wrong, mislead and deceived. If so then your whole basis for justification by faith alone as Abraham first was (Abraham believed God and was righteous by that before the Law was given by Moses.) has gone up in smoke and your forced to follow and observe all the commandments and ordinances written down or your doomed.,

Stephen was stoned for speaking the truth about the Law that was delivered by angels which they transgressed and refused to keep.

15 Bear in mind that our Lord’s patience means salvation, just as our dear brother Paul also wrote you with the wisdom that God gave him. 16 He writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction.

I would counsel you to repent of your unbelief and be converted in to the gospel by grace alone. OR, you may find yourself under God's condemnation as a false teacher as Peter has warned about in 2 Peter2.
 
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ananda

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Peter acknowledges and confirms Paul as a true apostle ... Not only Peter also the group of the apostles met with Paul and confirmed Paul in his calling.
Book, chapter, and verse, please? I have never read where the twelve acknowledged Paul's status as an "apostle". Thank you.

... while making mention that some of what Paul wrote was hard to understand and the unstable persons twist to their own destruction.
I believe you misunderstand what Peter wrote. 2Peter was an epistle written to warn the faithful about Paul - not to elevate Paul. Consider this:
1. Throughout this epistle, Peter writes about the necessity to follow Messiah and Torah in obedience and repentance, not turning back to sin (aka "rejecting the Law" cf 1Jn3:4) after coming to Him with our trust.
2. Peter cites his own credentials as an apostle, being a direct first-hand eyewitness to Messiah's life, words, and works (e.g. 2Pet 1:16-18), as opposed to those who were not first-hand witnesses, alluding to those who cunningly devise false fables & dreams about Messiah (e.g. Paul's alleged visions);
3. He warns against false prophets already among the believers (ch 2) who preach like Balaam (2:15, cf Rev 2:14, Jude 11) - a false prophet who taught truth mixed with falsehood, and promised "liberty" (2:19) from the commandments (2:21).
4. He exhorts his readers to stand true to YHWH's Word given through the prophets (3:2), and as Messiah Himself taught (that is, reject doctrines which state that Messiah's words & the words of the other prophets were for a "previous dispensation").
5. Finally, he warns us that Paul is only to be considered a "brother" - not "apostle" (3:15), that Paul according to his wisdom (not inspiration) given to him (from who? & what kind of wisdom was given to him? cf James 3:15 & Jer 4:22), he wrote to the believers.
Finally, to address more precisely the verses you are probably focusing upon: The ignorant and non-steadfast, upon reading Paul's "hard to understand" letters, twist the Scriptures to their own destruction (3:16) because they fall from steadfastness as a result of following his lawlessness/ἀθέσμων (3:17) doctrines. This is the major theme found in the rest of this book, as I've demonstrated above.

So your suggesting those whom God chose, the other apostles, who also wrote the Word for all to read, were wrong, mislead and deceived.
No, they were not. I believe 1+2 Peter, 1-3 John, James, Jude, and Revelation all speak against Paul's doctrines.

If so then your whole basis for justification by faith alone as Abraham first was (Abraham believed God and was righteous by that before the Law was given by Moses.) has gone up in smoke and your forced to follow and observe all the commandments and ordinances written down or your doomed.,
First, the Hebrew grammar in the Genesis account of Abraham actually states that he believed in YHWH, and Abraham counted YHWH's blessings upon him as righteousness. Secondly, according to YHWH & Messiah (see His parables), and confirmed by the prophets and the apostles Peter and John, we are not justified by faith alone, and obedience to YHWH's commandments are not grievous (1Jn 5:3).

Stephen was stoned for speaking the truth about the Law that was delivered by angels which they transgressed and refused to keep.
Either Stephen was in error, or Luke erred in his record of Stephen. YHWH's Law was not delivered by angels, but by YHWH Himself (Ex 20:22, cf Deu 4:36, Neh 9:13, etc.)

I would counsel you to repent of your unbelief and be converted in to the gospel by grace alone. OR, you may find yourself under God's condemnation as a false teacher as Peter has warned about in 2 Peter2.
Thank you; I have indeed wrestled with this issue almost daily, in prayer and study, for the last 3 years, examining both sides of the issue. I can say for certain that my belief, faith, and trust in Messiah has grown by leaps and bounds over this period of time. Though I reject Paul, I do not reject Messiah.

I would also counsel you to reconsider, as it involves our eternal salvation. The Bereans tested Paul, and the Apostle John counseled us to not believe every spirit, but also to test. Remember, YHWH stated that He would send us false prophets to test our love for Him and His Law (Deu 13:1-5).
 
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sdowney717

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just as our dear brother Paul also wrote you with the wisdom that God gave him.

this no warning but a word of acclimation
maybe God put this word in here to both refute you and convince you.

Peter says

dear brother Paul

Paul writes letters which are messages from God to believers

Paul has the wisdom of God.

God gave Paul wisdom
 
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ananda

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this no warning but a word of acclimation
maybe God put this word in here to both refute you and convince you. Peter says dear brother Paul
"brother" - not "apostle".

Paul writes letters which are messages from God to believers Paul has the wisdom of God. God gave Paul wisdom
Peter does not identify the source of Paul's wisdom.
 
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sdowney717

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Regarding angels and the Law

Warning to Pay Attention

2 We must pay the most careful attention, therefore, to what we have heard, so that we do not drift away. 2 For since the message spoken through angels was binding, and every violation and disobedience received its just punishment, 3 how shall we escape if we ignore so great a salvation? This salvation, which was first announced by the Lord, was confirmed to us by those who heard him. 4 God also testified to it by signs, wonders and various miracles, and by gifts of the Holy Spirit distributed according to his will.

3 Now Moses was tending the flock of Jethro his father-in-law, the priest of Midian, and he led the flock to the far side of the wilderness and came to Horeb, the mountain of God. 2 There the angel of the Lord appeared to him in flames of fire from within a bush. Moses saw that though the bush was on fire it did not burn up. 3 So Moses thought, “I will go over and see this strange sight—why the bush does not burn up.”

4 When the Lord saw that he had gone over to look, God called to him from within the bush, “Moses! Moses!”

And Moses said, “Here I am.”


The Angel of the Lord at Bokim

2 The angel of the Lord went up from Gilgal to Bokim and said, “I brought you up out of Egypt and led you into the land I swore to give to your ancestors. I said, ‘I will never break my covenant with you, 2 and you shall not make a covenant with the people of this land, but you shall break down their altars.’ Yet you have disobeyed me. Why have you done this? 3 And I have also said, ‘I will not drive them out before you; they will become traps for you, and their gods will become snares to you.’”

4 When the angel of the Lord had spoken these things to all the Israelites, the people wept aloud, 5 and they called that place Bokim.[a] There they offered sacrifices to the Lord.

Angels are intimately involved as messengers for those who will inherit salvation and they also dispense God's rules and judgement to people. The speak as God speaks.
 
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ananda

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Regarding angels and the Law

3 Now Moses was tending the flock of Jethro his father-in-law, the priest of Midian, and he led the flock to the far side of the wilderness and came to Horeb, the mountain of God. 2 There the angel of the Lord appeared to him in flames of fire from within a bush. ...
You quoted Hebrews 2 and suggest that the "Angel of YHWH" in the Moses account was what the author of Hebrews had in mind in 2:2. I disagree.

Hebrews 2 is speaking about regular angels - not the Angel of YHWH who was Messiah (see the author's related thoughts regarding these former angels in Heb 2:4 "angels hath he not put in subjection the world to come", and 2:7 "madest him a little lower than the angels", and 2:9 "Yehoshua, who was made a little lower than the angels ...", 2:16, etc.). Secondly, this is confirmed by the text of 2:2 itself by the use of the plural in "the word spoken by angels (ἀγγέλους, plural)" - not singular, as would be indicated if the author was identifying Messiah.
 
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sdowney717

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Judges 2 is a good example of what Stephen spoke regarding angels and the Law. The word testifies of Stephen that he was full of the Holy Spirit.
Which means Gods approval was upon Stephen's testimony.

The Stoning of Stephen

54 When the members of the Sanhedrin heard this, they were furious and gnashed their teeth at him. 55 But Stephen, full of the Holy Spirit, looked up to heaven and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing at the right hand of God. 56 “Look,” he said, “I see heaven open and the Son of Man standing at the right hand of God.”

57 At this they covered their ears and, yelling at the top of their voices, they all rushed at him, 58 dragged him out of the city and began to stone him. Meanwhile, the witnesses laid their coats at the feet of a young man named Saul.

and immediately prior to tha above, Stephen says

53 you who have received the law that was given through angels but have not obeyed it.”

Stephen under God's power speaks the word 'angels'
 
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ananda

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Judges 2 is a good example of what Stephen spoke regarding angels and the Law.
Again, Judges 2 also speaks of the singular "Angel of YHWH" - not "angels", plural.

Stephen under God's power speaks the word 'angels'
Stephen does not speak in agreement with either the Law or the Prophets:

"To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them."- Isa 8:20

Paul, Stephen, and the author of Hebrews (likely Barnabas, Paul's disciple) speaks of the Law being given through angels as a way to denigrate and diminish YHWH's Law, in contrast to their new way of faith- & grace-only which they teach. This was the seed that caused the birth of Gnosticism.
 
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timewerx

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Interesting thread.

If many of Paul's teachings are in conflict against the teachings of Jesus already, here you showed us Bible verses that serve to warn us about a person who seem to have many identifying marks of Paul

One someone with a "plank in their eyes" would fail to see these things in the Bible.
 
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ananda

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Interesting thread.

If many of Paul's teachings are in conflict against the teachings of Jesus already, here you showed us Bible verses that serve to warn us about a person who seem to have many identifying marks of Paul

One someone with a "plank in their eyes" would fail to see these things in the Bible.
... and this is only the tip of the iceberg in terms of the problems with Paul, as you know.
 
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gord44

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There is alot of talk that Paul and the other apostles clashed alot over what they saw in Paul's Christianity as not being what Jesus taught. There is even theories that Revelation is a commentary about Rome as well as Pauline Christians written by an angry Jewish Christian who has just seen the temple and Jerusalem destroyed as well as Paul's Christianity taking hold, which he disapproved of. Of course that's just a theory.
 
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ananda

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There is alot of talk that Paul and the other apostles clashed alot over what they saw in Paul's Christianity as not being what Jesus taught.
There is quite a bit of data, in my opinion, which supports this idea.

There is even theories that Revelation is a commentary about Rome as well as Pauline Christians written by an angry Jewish Christian who has just seen the temple and Jerusalem destroyed as well as Paul's Christianity taking hold, which he disapproved of. Of course that's just a theory.
I've come across this theory before, but I haven't seen much evidence to support it.
 
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gord44

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There is quite a bit of data, in my opinion, which supports this idea.

Indeed. Not that really think that effects the Bible at all. If one believes the Bible is God's Word, then it's easy to see how God can plow through the divisions of men to make his message plain.

I've come across this theory before, but I haven't seen much evidence to support it.

Yeah I don't really believe it either, just thought it was interesting.
 
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OldWiseGuy

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In Genesis chapter 49, Jacob prophesies about the destinies of his sons' descendants. It is well known that Jacob, in Gen 49:10-12, prophesies about the then-(first) coming of Messiah through the tribe of Judah.

But notice that the prophecy is more about the descendants of Judah than it is of Christ. In fact all the prophecies in Gen 49 are about the descendants of Jacob in general, not any one specifically.

What is less well-known is that Jacob also made a prophecy about the tribe of Benjamin. From Benjamin would arise a ravening wolf who would kill the prey in the search/morning, and then divide the treasure in the darkness/evening (Gen 49:27). This ravening wolf would have to arrive also before the destruction of the Temple's records in 70 A.D.

Paul doesn't fit the ravening wolf character. If anything Paul was subtle, using his knowledge to persuade others, not force.


I think you have to look for a people, an ethnic group (not necessarily a nation or even a tribe) that can more plainly fit the description. I vote for the early Vikings and the latter day Russians (descendants of Benjamin/Rosh).
 
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sdowney717

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An article for those pushing the Paul is false doctrine idea.

take out www, htm spaces to read

w w w . letusreason.org/Doct63.h t m

The New Testament Gospel Without Paul

Luke wrote Acts not Barnabus.

We must remember that it is Luke who put the book of Acts together with all the information available, though it starts with Peter and John he does show the succession to Paul and Barnabas sent out to bring the gospel to the Gentiles (non Jews) throughout the known world.

Paul was a key person in establishing the Church at Ephesus, although I think this wont help you see as you will read it another way.

John bears witness to Paul being an apostle as he writes the words of Jesus- Revelation 2:2: “I know your works, your labor, your patience, and that you cannot bear those who are evil. And you have tested those who say they are apostles and are not, and have found them liars.”

The Ephesus church was watched over by Paul, he was not found to be a liar, but a true apostle.

And if you believe this to be a warning from Peter, WHICH writings of Paul PETER ADMITS to some being hard to understand, but not admitting to being FALSE, then you have yourself twisted the intent in Peter's letter to falsehood from Truth and God will someday show you this folly.

Peter goes into great depth on false teachers in his letters, so Peter would have certainly named Paul as one if Paul was one as Paul was very well known in the church.

2 Peter 3:15-16: “and account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation-- as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given to him, has written to you, as also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which untaught and unstable people twist to their own destruction, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures”

Notice that Peter equates Paul’s letters as Scripture.
 
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timewerx

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... and this is only the tip of the iceberg in terms of the problems with Paul, as you know.

If that was only the problem, I would have gone with Paul's teachings, but wait, there are problems with his teachings too!

Paul doesn't fit the ravening wolf character. If anything Paul was subtle, using his knowledge to persuade others, not force.

I think you have to look for a people, an ethnic group (not necessarily a nation or even a tribe) that can more plainly fit the description. I vote for the early Vikings and the latter day Russians (descendants of Benjamin/Rosh).

Matthew 7:15 (NLT)
"Beware of false prophets who come disguised as harmless sheep but are really vicious wolves.
 
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sdowney717

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People who reject Paul also reject Acts and much of the word as false.

13 1 Now in the church at Antioch there were prophets and teachers: Barnabas, Simeon called Niger, Lucius of Cyrene, Manaen (who had been brought up with Herod the tetrarch) and Saul. 2 While they were worshiping the Lord and fasting, the Holy Spirit said, “Set apart for me Barnabas and Saul for the work to which I have called them.” 3 So after they had fasted and prayed, they placed their hands on them and sent them off.

Why would God call Paul to the work of God if Paul was a false teacher, Why would God even have anything positive to say .
You may as well just create your own bible.

If the entire bible is inspired, then when you reject it you fall under God's warning curse in Rev, which book you also likely reject as having any spiritual value.
God put this word in place at the very end of His books, which you must also reject that God had anything to do with in placing the books having God's own approval.

A Warning

18 For I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds to these things, God will add[j] to him the plagues that are written in this book; 19 and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away[k] his part from the Book[l] of Life, from the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.


Which I am sure, you will also reject.

The word of warning from God also exists in the old testament regarding adding or taking away from His word.
God gives the example immediately following of utter destruction to those who disobey Him.
Those people were existing amoung the people of God, but they were Not His people.
They are like the man who shows up at the wedding feast not wearing the right clothes. That man gets tossed into the outer darkness.

1“Now, O Israel, listen to the statutes and the judgments which I am teaching you to perform, so that you may live and go in and take possession of the land which the LORD, the God of your fathers, is giving you.2“You shall not add to the word which I am commanding you, nor take away from it, that you may keep the commandments of the LORD your God which I command you.3“Your eyes have seen what the LORD has done in the case of Baal-peor, for all the men who followed Baal-peor, the LORD your God has destroyed them from among you.4“But you who held fast to the LORD your God are alive today, every one of you.
 
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timewerx

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