Christian universalist methodology

[dumpsterdiver45]

I ask that Christian universalists (CU) respond here. Would also invite non-universalists to respond if their contribution is in the spirit of the thread, which is to discuss the doctrinal (and thus Biblical) structure of the salvation of non-believing humans.

A recent discussion I had in another thread here with Hillsage got me thinking, what are the various belief systems of different Christian universalists who post here? More specifically, what is the CU's understanding of the proper doctrinal approach for the salvation of non-Christians from Scripture? For example, consider the competing organizations below:

1. True* Christians are saved the traditional way (by faith), bypassing hell after physical death and gaining heaven by their faith, while non-believers suffer slow torment [in another realm than 'heaven'] through ages to come until eventually accepting Christ. In this example those who gain salvation suffer only enough until they 'wear down' and eventually accept Christ of their own will. (This is my weak interpretation of the AIWN and AIWNIOS controversy which has never been a part of my own universalism)

2. True* Christians are saved the traditional way (by faith), while non-believers are purified in the lake of fire directly following physical death. In this example, the non-believer finds him/herself in fiery torment immediately following physical death and remains there until all enmity against God is removed, at which 'time' the unbeliever is set free to believe, repents and is restored to perfection. That long periods of time in purification are not part of this view might use the references to destruction "in one hour" in Rev 18. Also, that salvation is achieved by use of Godly fire defers to 1Cor 3:11-15 and others.

3. All humans are the same in relationship to God in that each, to the degree [but only to the degree] he/she conforms to prescriptive truth [Christ] in sanctification in time is saved. In this broad metaphoric view, "true Christian" is not a term applicable to individuals, it represents a condition of partial unanimity between Christ (Truth) and any human soul, regardless of religion of lack thereof. 1Cor 3:11-15 may again be applicable, merely interpreted more broadly. In this view one need not know or profess Christ per se to be saved. Salvation lies in the development of a personal relationship with Him in spirit in time, such that faith is developed in sanctification to protect according to the degree of faith attained to. One consequence of this view is that not all of any individual is necessarily wholly saved from some degree of purification in the lake of fire following physical death. One may find it necessary to be "finished" in part therein.

Personally, I have one foot planted in #2 but see value in and am tending toward #3. Curious to see where other CUs stand on this; there may be other views as well.

Any takers?

(* True here means only one's understanding of the term as used to differentiate between actual vs. superficial faith)

 

[Ishraqiyun]

All humans posses a divine spark or Christ nature. Salvation represents realization or gnosis of inherent Christ nature and living from that reality. The fog of ignorance temporarily hides this reality from people. Eventually all humans will realize Inherent Nature but the exact time frame for each individual may vary. If one doesn't realize salvation before their death they go back to the wheel of genesis or rebirth (hell). The "wheel of nature/ generation" (geneseōs) or "wheel set in motion by birth (RSV margin note translation)" written about in the Book of James. The man Jesus (who was in perfect union with Christ ) incarnated on this earth to help awaken humankind from ignorance and sin and thus allow them to transcend this wheel of genesis.

"And the tongue is a fire: the world of iniquity among our members is the tongue, which defileth the whole body, and setteth on fire the wheel of nature, and is set on fire by hell." James 3:6

​

As you can see this wheel of nature we are living in right now can be "set on fire" and thus can be called "hell". Coming back here to the rounds of rebirth rather than finding liberation / salvation = going to hell.

 

[dumpsterdiver45]

Thanks for the response Ishraqiyun. (How is this pronounced?)

I take a more evangelical approach to universalism, though, and the op is aimed at Christian universalists who generally accept the traditional fundamentals of the Christian faith as true but see Christ's sacrifice and atonement as intended to and sufficient for the entire human race. As such, there must be a Biblical basis and structure within the Bible (unseen or rejected by tradition) which bears witness to the salvation of all.

Seems to me the Gnostic approach--and I admit I'm not very familiar with Gnostic doctrine--rejects too much of historic Christianity (especially the doctrine of a God-inspired Bible, which seems to me crucial to this discussion) to find a place within the general outline included in the op. On the other hand, maybe my lack of understanding of Gnosticism just prevents me from seeing its contribution to the subject. What do you think?

 

[Ishraqiyun]

Thanks for the response Ishraqiyun. (How is this pronounced?)

I take a more evangelical approach to universalism, though, and the op is aimed at Christian universalists who generally accept the traditional fundamentals of the Christian faith as true but see Christ's sacrifice and atonement as intended to and sufficient for the entire human race. As such, there must be a Biblical basis and structure within the Bible (unseen or rejected by tradition) which bears witness to the salvation of all.

Seems to me the Gnostic approach--and I admit I'm not very familiar with Gnostic doctrine--rejects too much of historic Christianity (especially the doctrine of a God-inspired Bible, which seems to me crucial to this discussion) to find a place within the general outline included in the op. On the other hand, maybe my lack of understanding of Gnosticism just prevents me from seeing its contribution to the subject. What do you think?

My view has been influenced by some of the canonical Scriptures especially the writtings of Paul ( Galatians, Romans, Hebrews etc..) but it does involve an interpretation* of those texts which diverges radically from that of traditional Evangelicalism and I also include teachings from Scriptures that are not part of the Protestant canon. I did quote the book of James for support in my last post though.

It's your thread though so if you think that view is to far out in left field to be relevant to your topic I will respect that.

* My take on the Pauline letters is closer to that of the so called Valentinian "Gnostics.". See the book "The Gnostic Paul" by Elaine Pagels for more info on their take on Paul's writtings. They claim to have been taught this understanding by St Theudas who studied directly under Paul.

The Gospel of John plays a big role in my worldview too as that text was always important to a lot of the early so called "Gnostics" such as the Naassenes and the Valentinians.

 

[Mediaeval]

Option 3 sounds works-y, unless perhaps I've misunderstood what you meant. Options 1 and 2 seem like variations of the same thing.

 

[Ishraqiyun]

Thanks for the response Ishraqiyun. (How is this pronounced?)

Pronounced ish rack e uhn I believe. I'm not totally sure though as I've only seen it in print and never actually heard it pronounced. It means "Illuminationist." . I was really interested in the Neo-Platonic Ishraqi school of philosophy when I first made my name. I've kind of moved away from that but I still like the name.

 

[Ishraqiyun]

If you want a more "orthodox" or mainstream justification for Universalism then the writings of Saint Isaac the Syrian are a necessity imo. I first learned about him when I went to a Russian Orthodox church. His writings are well read and respected among the Orthodox monastics. You can find some good introduction to his thoughts online:

Universalism of Salvation: St Isaac the Syrian

St Isaac the Syrian: Preaching the Astonishing Love of God

Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev on St. Isaac

ISAAC THE SYRIAN:

A THEOLOGIAN OF LOVE AND MERCY

The theology of St Isaac the Syrian

 

[Hillsage]

A recent discussion I had in another thread here with Hillsage got me thinking,

Something I have heard a lot in my walk...and yet it still is humbling because I think the thing I shared was revealed to me, even as it has/is being revealed to them. And it is revealed, not because they have seen through 'the veil', or because I have taken it off, but because He has removed it. That is true 'revelation knowledge' from above. Even as 'initial salvation' requires 'revelation from above to even make a confession.

~Peter's Confession of Christ
Mark 8:27 ... "Who do men say that I am?"
Matthew 16:17 ...For flesh and blood has not revealedthis to you, but my Father who is in heaven.

And we all agree we must repent first. But in whose hand 'or will' does even 'that revelation' come from?

2TI 2:25 ...God may perhaps grant that they will repent and come to know the truth,

1. True* Christians are saved the traditional way (by faith), bypassing hell after physical death and gaining heaven by their faith, while non-believers suffer slow torment [in another realm than 'heaven'] through ages to come until eventually accepting Christ. In this example those who gain salvation suffer only enough until they 'wear down' and eventually accept Christ of their own will. (This is my weak interpretation of the AIWN and AIWNIOS controversy which has never been a part of my own universalism)

I'm not really remembering exactly what 'I/we' talked about, but let me say this; I believe that every believer in this age will still go through the fire of salvation in the next age also. I say that based upon 1Cor 3.

1CO 3:11 For no other foundation can any one lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 Now if any one builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw -- 13 each man's work will become manifest; for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done. 14 If the work which any man has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward. 15 If any man's work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.

I can't believe that every work I've done, since my 'Christ foundation' was laid, is going to pass the test of fire. But the purpose of this (hell?) fire isn't to torture eternally.

2. True* Christians are saved the traditional way (by faith), while non-believers are purified in the lake of fire directly following physical death. In this example, the non-believer finds him/herself in fiery torment immediately following physical death and remains there until all enmity against God is removed, at which 'time' the unbeliever is set free to believe, repents and is restored to perfection. That long periods of time in purification are not part of this view might use the references to destruction "in one hour" in Rev 18. Also, that salvation is achieved by use of Godly fire defers to 1Cor 3:11-15 and others.

Personally I don't believe we see "firey torment" immediately upon "following physical death"...but only after 'the judgment' which I assume is at the end of this age. Should I die prior to that day, my 'eternally saved upon being born again' spirit will return to the Father immediately, but my soul will enter the 'grave's death' of soul sleep until that day where the works it had us do will be judged as wood/hay/gold/silver. And my body will return to the 'earth dust' from whence it came, as I (spirit/soul) await a glorified body in the hereafter.

3. All humans are the same in relationship to God in that each, to the degree [but only to the degree] he/she conforms to prescriptive truth [Christ] in sanctification in time is saved. In this broad metaphoric view, "true Christian" is not a term applicable to individuals, it represents a condition of partial unanimity between Christ (Truth) and any human soul, regardless of religion of lack thereof. 1Cor 3:11-15 may again be applicable, merely interpreted more broadly. In this view one need not know or profess Christ per se to be saved. Salvation lies in the development of a personal relationship with Him in spirit in time, such that faith is developed in sanctification to protect according to the degree of faith attained to. One consequence of this view is that not all of any individual is necessarily wholly saved from some degree of purification in the lake of fire following physical death. One may find it necessary to be "finished" in part therein.

A 'degree relationship' is like being kinda pregnant, or kinda married IMO. You either have a 'personal relationship' (parent/child...married) or you don't IMO. But the "degree" of our 'fellowship' is different. And regarding 'initial salvation' that 'personal' relationship with God is based upon a "born again/born anew/born from above" encounter IMO. And I don't believe in the 'partial birth' salvation of a spirit.

I also don't believe 'all roads lead to heaven' either, but that all roads will ultimately lead to 'Christ the savior'. And for 'most', that day doesn't happen until the day "every knee shall bow" and "confess Jesus as Lord"...including "Christians" since they too will 'have knees' in that day. And we will, in that day, find out just how much "Lord" we really made him 'in our life's walk/works'. ' For sure' we made him 'wholly' our savior on 'that first salvation day' wherein our spirit was saved, and our personal 'relationship' was begun.

 

[timewerx]

How I wish everyone will go to Heaven even if they died in their sins so they have God to personally teach them the way and also the struggles of many, everyone has suffered in the evil that is upon the world....

....But this is not how God made things to be. If everyone would go to Heaven, Jesus would not have bitterly wept in the cross and asked His Father to forgive those who kept sinning for choosing to be ignorant of God's Word.

Often Jesus expressed sorrow to those who are blind to God's Kingdom and bitterly rebuked those who kept the people from knowing and having their eyes opened - the Pharisees.

If everyone goes to heaven, Jesus would not have behaved as such.

I also don't believe in non-stop, eternal punishment in hell as even that can't be fully supported by scripture and only portrays a very cruel God.

 

[dumpsterdiver45]

If you want a more "orthodox" or mainstream justification for Universalism then the writings of Saint Isaac the Syrian are a necessity imo. I first learned about him when I went to a Russian Orthodox church. His writings are well read and respected among the Orthodox monastics. You can find some good introduction to his thoughts online

thanks, Ish (easier to pronounce in my mind). And thanks for your other comments.

 

[dumpsterdiver45]

Option 3 sounds works-y, unless perhaps I've misunderstood what you meant. Options 1 and 2 seem like variations of the same thing.

1 and 2 are very similar. The first is an interpretation--possibly an innacurate one, since I'm not that familiar with the direction the theology of the 'age enduring' CUs takes.

The second is pretty much an elimination of the age enduring concept. Here, the lake of fire is a metaphor for admittance of the human spirit to God's presence. To a fragmentally falsified human soul, pure Truth is a roaring lake of fire--hence God's presence a metaphor in Revelation of fire to human spirit. This is strongly supported in both Testaments. The first argues primarily along literal lines, which imo can never achieve the highest truth of Scripture.

The second admits a higher degree of metaphor/allegory in interpretation than 1, and the third is essentially the next stepping stone in the metaphoric structure. It has some difficulties, but also resolves certain tensions, for example the absolute fairness of each human receiving his/her judgment. here, some portion of each person may face final purification in the Lake of Fire based on a potential unfinished sanctification in time, as opposed to those of faith in time entering the LOF unscathed (re Daniel's friends in Nebuchadnezzar's furnace). 3 does away with the duality (saved/unsaved) found in time, while 2 admits the temporal duality but joins all together in the 'saved' bracket in eternity.

 

[dumpsterdiver45]

Hi Hillsage,

...let me say this; I believe that every believer in this age will still go through the fire of salvation in the next age also. I say that based upon 1Cor 3.

What does this mean? What does it mean to "go through the next age"? Reincarnation? Something expeienced in the afterlife?

Personally I don't believe we see "firey torment" immediately upon "following physical death"...but only after 'the judgment' which I assume is at the end of this age. Should I die prior to that day, my 'eternally saved upon being born again' spirit will return to the Father immediately, but my soul will enter the 'grave's death' of soul sleep until that day where the works it had us do will be judged as wood/hay/gold/silver.

I think we're not quite on the same page. The subject is how are the unbelieving saved? All three categories in the op are speaking to the mechanics of their salvation. Examples 1 and 2 assume that falsity or impurities which yet stain the soul of believers upon physical death will, by virtue of having conformed to sanctification to obtain a state of saving faith in life, be instantly purified (changed to a wholly true or perfect state) per 1Cor 15:52. Having been saved by faith, the believer is unharmed by the LOF [God's presence or pure Truth] because the falsity in her soul was made true in a twinkling and she need not suffer the second death. The fire is the destruction of the false by God's essence [Truth]. Those who are one with God in truth (Jn 17:22) are unharmed by His holiness; these do not die in the LOF second death (Jn 11:26) This is the sum of all teaching of Godly fire in the Bible. It is the unbeliever And believers are not necessarily professing Christians, but those who believe in Truth (Jn 14:6).

Unbelievers on the other hand die spiritually as God's holy essence embraces their souls the falsity of their souls are destroyed in the furnace of His purity and "new offspring" are brought forth. This is hell. It's the same hellfire believers endure in sanctification, but conformity in time is the easy way (Mat 11:29). It's easier being sprinkled with fire than to drawn fully into it. Those who conform to the fires of sanctification in life need die only in this life (1Cor 15:31, Rev 2:11), not the next.

In example 1, I don't understand how the age-lasting punishment works. In 2 believers are spared the second death, Unbelievers must endure it, but are purified in it. I assume mystery Babylon in both OT prophets and Rev to reference the evil within individual human souls, not a physical place, so the being laid waste in one hour is to me the torment experienced in death of the soul in God's firey embrace. I take the "one hour" reference to suggest a relatively short [which could still play out from the perspective of the sufferer to be a long time; when one is in agony, time seems to stand still....]duration of punishment or spiritual destruction as the soul is remade...this is hell.

So how do things play out for the unbeliever in your theology?

A 'degree relationship' is like being kinda pregnant, or kinda married IMO. You either have a 'personal relationship' (parent/child...married) or you don't IMO. But the "degree" of our 'fellowship' is different.

The degree of relationship is from the human perspective. From God's eternal perspective, Hitler, you, me...yes, even president Obama and lawyers--are already saved. From our temporal view the relationship is developing.

And regarding 'initial salvation' that 'personal' relationship with God is based upon a "born again/born anew/born from above" encounter IMO. And I don't believe in the 'partial birth' salvation of a spirit.

I do because the notion of being wholly born and clean of spirit in a single experience is both logically incoherent and inconsistent with life experience.

So, how are the unsaved saved? What is the metaphysical or spiritual mechanism so to speak for their admittance to eternal glory as you see it?

 

[Noxot]

I don't know. what if everything happened at once? maybe we are just remembering stories we dreamed up with God. maybe we are simply seeing the fine detail now. or going back over it with our soul who is the lower part of who we are.

maybe we came back and now decided to alter this reality, thus creating a different version of this place.

what is reality and, could it be that each of us experience this universe in our own way? maybe for each of us, we go through this place and when we die we see each of us came out of the best possible universe that made us saved. so maybe there are so many alternate universes that we shift from time to time to different ones, and the ultimate outcome is salvation for each as we pass through this life, once we go nearer the end ( which we are at) they all combine to one and then it goes back to it's eternal state of existence?

and so the illusion is that some are not saved. and it seems like some lived terrible lives but this is only from one point of view from my perspective, maybe in universe 3w hitler was saved and that was enough but he acted such and such way in this universe where I am currently in. prove that i don't shift from alternate reality to alternate reality if some are so close to each other that i would not notice if God shifted the reality.

just a theory. I could be in my own universe, this could be noxots universe and everyone here are projections of themselves here. maybe in dumpsterdiver45 universe there is a noxot there that is different due to the way things happen in his universe. maybe noxot is not saved in his universe but obviously noxot is saved in noxots universe. but it is still a image of noxot in every one elses universe and the most clear image of noxot is in the universe where he is saved in.

just because it is not revealed and manifest does not mean it is not true or true, when we die and see those bright and wonderful flowers and speak with jesus we might see that this place was one little bright flower. truth has no end, it is measureless. how do we think we can get a good hold on reality when we are so blind?

this reality is so low, it might only be when we go to the age of ages that we see that we finally all see ourselves clearly, as we are in Christ. what if i saw everyone and then went to sleep and had a dream, I know all and they are put into multiple layers of realitites forming my dream, images of all the children acting in my own dream, when i wake up i will have learned how to love my brothers and sisters no matter what, and each childs dream could be unique. and then some of us come back to the various dreams to influence them in some kind of profound way. or we watch other peoples dreams in various forms on different levels of their dream reality.

 

[Hillsage]

Hi Hillsage,

What does this mean? What does it mean to "go through the next age"? Reincarnation? Something expeienced in the afterlife?

Hello DD. I'm not a believer in reincarnation. We are probably going to have lots of disagreement on the details even though we agree on the ultimate victory of God's plan for his beloved creation. First off, would you agree that the 1Cor 3 verses are talking about a "Christian", someone who was born again which would be based upon having the "foundation on Christ" of verse 3. If not then what do you believe. As far as the "next age" is concerned...now YOU have me thinking. And as I just went back and reread 1Cor 3 I am asking myself if this is talking about the firey trials of 'this age' only? Is that your thinking?

I think we're not quite on the same page. The subject is how are the unbelieving saved? All three categories in the op are speaking to the mechanics of their salvation.

In your opinion is 'salvation' a 'one time' experience only? Do you allow for separate events/processes for the salvation of triune man (spirit, soul, body)?

Examples 1 and 2 assume that falsity or impurities which yet stain the soul of believers upon physical death will, by virtue of having conformed to sanctification to obtain a state of saving faith in life, be instantly purified (changed to a wholly true or perfect state) per 1Cor 15:52.

This is a point in case. 1Cor 15:52 is not talking about spirit or soul, but the context begins in vs 35 and continues to 52 IMO.

1CO 15:35 But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?

Having been saved by faith, the believer is unharmed by the LOF [God's presence or pure Truth] because the falsity in her soul was made true in a twinkling and she need not suffer the second death.

But I see the 'spirit' as being saved by 'faith without works'. That salvation is wholly dependent upon the 'faith and works' of Jesus. And after being 'wholly born again' or saved in spirit, we then begin to "work out the salvation (of our soul) with fear and trembling". The soul is being saved progressively by 'faith with works' as 'the word' is engrafted into our minds/soul. Then the 'glory' our resurrected body will have will be dependent upon 'how saved' we allowed our souls to become in the work with the Holy Spirit.

The fire is the destruction of the false by God's essence [Truth]. Those who are one with God in truth (Jn 17:22)

I do believe he has "given the glory to us" but we have not yet put it on. Just as we "have been blessed with ALL the spiritual blessings" of Eph 1:3, but we aren't walking in them because they are 'positionally' received into our life and not just a 'relationship' issue.

are unharmed by His holiness; these do not die in the LOF second death (Jn 11:26) This is the sum of all teaching of Godly fire in the Bible. It is the unbeliever And believers are not necessarily professing Christians, but those who believe in Truth (Jn 14:6).

John 11 is talking about the 'body' "I am the resurrection" and John 14:6, for me, is talking about the 'spirit' of man and the fact that 'Jesus is the truth' wherein we first 'come to the Father by Him'. And that is in our 'first salvation' step. Vs 12 further illuminates this process where it says; JOH 14:12 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes in me (initially) will also do the works (subsequently) that I do; and greater works than these will he do, because I go to the Father.

So how do things play out for the unbeliever in your theology?

I'm not 'hard and fast' concerning my thoughts, but tend to think that the spirit returns to God immediately and is restored unto a 'personal relationship' at that time. The soul enters soul sleep until the day of judgment where 'every whereas we/believers have that restored here in this life. When it comes to the work/things done while on earth....

JOH 5:28 'Wonder not at this, because there doth come an hour in which all those in the tombs shall hear his voice, 29 and they shall come forth; those who did the good things to a rising again of life, and those who practised the evil things to a rising again of judgment.

I don't believe that the "Judgment" spoken of here is 'eternal torture', but an 'age lasting' correction.

The degree of relationship is from the human perspective. From God's eternal perspective, Hitler, you, me...yes, even president Obama and lawyers--are already saved. From our temporal view the relationship is developing.

I think we have all been forgiven and reconciled thanks to Jesus. But I think of salvation as something 'more' than that 'unilateral' fact. 'Knowing' experientially that you are saved is an important point also I think.

I do because the notion of being wholly born and clean of spirit in a single experience is both logically incoherent and inconsistent with life experience.

I separate the spirit soul here and you apparently do not. My spirit was 'born again' not my soul.

JOH 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

So, how are the unsaved saved? What is the metaphysical or spiritual mechanism so to speak for their admittance to eternal glory as you see it?

I guess I don't think it is 'metaphysical'. I think it is the 'physical' work of Jesus Christ that provides all spirits with our 'tickets' to 'enter into heaven'. But it is our 'physical works' (initiated by soul changes) that provide the 'rewards' we receive 'in heaven'.

I gotta make these shorter. How about one question for sure. Do you separate spirit, soul and body?

 

[dumpsterdiver45]

would you agree that the 1Cor 3 verses are talking about a "Christian", someone who was born again which would be based upon having the "foundation on Christ" of verse 3. If not then what do you believe.

Not necessarily. Theology boards aren't a very good venue for deeper discussion, but I generally see the potential for several layers of meaning for any given concept raised in the Scripture. The concept "foundation in Christ" can mean the relationship developing between a disciple (professing Christian) and Christ in time, while simultaneously on a much broader plane mean the degree of truth-to-Truth unity of any human spirit with Christ who draws him. The former falls within the popular organized religious structure, the latter is an extension of what I think of as fitting a 'systematic metaphorical structure', i.e., meanings derived from and consistent with established literal truths.

I can start listing passages from both Testaments with explanations of how this (systematic metaphorical structure) works as I see it, but don't have the time right now [lunch break] and don't want to crowd the post with minutiae that few if any are interested in.

In your opinion is 'salvation' a 'one time' experience only? Do you allow for separate events/processes for the salvation of triune man (spirit, soul, body)?

One time for each person, if I understand the question.

I don't believe that the "Judgment" spoken of here is 'eternal torture', but an 'age lasting' correction.

Bingo! That's the thing I'm asking....what does "age lasting correction" mean? How does one experience an age lasting correction? Humans only live 75 years, so am assuming this is something carried on in the spiritual realm after physical death?

I separate the spirit soul here and you apparently do not. My spirit was 'born again' not my soul...How about one question for sure. Do you separate spirit, soul and body?

Probably not as you do. I tend to use the tripartite view most because it lends itself to causal structure a bit more easily than the bipartite position. I don't see how you can separate all three (body/soul/spirit) after death.

How do you define soul and what are its attributes? To me, soul is mind or consciousness, spirit is energy or dynamic life force, and body, of course, is material stuff. At minimum, spirit produces soul without matter (though there's no suggested mechanism that I know of). This bi-view, though the mechanics are unknown, at least provides consciousness after physical death. The tripartite organization (spirit invigorates body to produce soul/mind) seems workable--explains unconsciousness as incorporeal/corporeal aspects of a person depend on one another to produce a working mind, and if one becomes defective, the mind suffers for it--except the causation falls apart after physical death. If there's no matter to animate, how can consciousness carry on?

On the other hand your separation of spirit to God, soul to sleep and presumably body to decomposition doesn't work for me. Spirit restored to a "relationship" while soul sleeps? Where is consciousness in this view?

 

[Hillsage]

The concept "foundation in Christ" can mean the relationship developing between a disciple (professing Christian) and Christ in time,

I see the "foundation" as the relationship's start. And 'building upon that foundation' as "fellowship developing between disciple/Christ. It is a fine line definition for me to divide relationship and fellowship. And one that helps me to 'rightly divide' things I see in scripture. But I admit most don't 'see' it as I do

while simultaneously on a much broader plane mean the degree of truth-to-Truth unity of any human spirit with Christ who draws him. The former falls within the popular organized religious structure, the latter is an extension of what I think of as fitting a 'systematic metaphorical structure', i.e., meanings derived from and consistent with established literal truths.

I don't see the spirit as growing in truth, I believe that, upon the rebirth/foundation salvation experience the spirit is wholly saved;

1CO 6:17 But he who is united to the Lord becomes one spirit with him.

Bingo! That's the thing I'm asking....what does "age lasting correction" mean? How does one experience an age lasting correction? Humans only live 75 years, so am assuming this is something carried on in the spiritual realm after physical death?

An age is whatever period of time that God establishes IMO. I have no idea how long, I only know the ultimate outcome....IMO.

How do you define soul and what are its attributes? To me, soul is mind or consciousness,

I agree...mind, will, emotion, attitude type things. But it produces the 'motivational life force' of a person. Eg. I WILL do this...I WILL not go there.

spirit is energy or dynamic life force,

I agree, but also think it is the 'animational life force' energy, which is what you're saying. But I also believe that there is a 'God intelligence' that goes along with 'being led of the spirit'....our spirit. Especially after it is 'born from above' and is subsequently 'a holy spirit'.

Have to quit and go home. We have home church tonight so may not finish til tomorrow.

 

[dumpsterdiver45]

I don't see the spirit as growing in truth, I believe that, upon the rebirth/foundation salvation experience the spirit is wholly saved;

1CO 6:17 But he who is united to the Lord becomes one spirit with him.

But this is not what I believe. Spirit is in my theology an animating principle, it doesn't "grow" in anything. I see human spirit as fragmentally falsified, which at base causes imperfections and supplies the negative energy to the mind which constantly masticates, reasons, chooses, weighs, considers, contemplates and measures its content. The mind or soul eventually (arguably to varying degrees) unites with (makes a decision for) content provided to it, such as a temptation or urge to do good. The decision to steal is a union with falsified content, to help another in need is uniting with information with higher truth content. It's no secret that both present themselves to the mind. If spirit is the dynamic energy of the mind, your difficulty to my thinking is to explain how a mind can operate falsely when energized by a wholly pure and true spirit.

Partial or ongoing salvation from a human perspective [again, in eternity everything's a done deal in God's eyes and none can change it] should not be a hard concept to grasp. Incompleteness in moral aptitude is a well known feature of persons.

As I see it, the spirit doesn't grow in anything, it is a force which passes on or provides one of two qualities to the soul, true or false. In sanctification the false is fragmentally and gradually destroyed (this is Godly hellfire, which incinerates and annihilates all things false) and restores that destruction to a true state. Death and rebirth. It happens gradually, not all at once in time. I don't believe in a 'born aagain moment' where human spirit is made wholly true in an instant. Those who claim a day and time they were born again to my thinking are only identifying the moment the working of sanctification (fragmentary spiritual death and rebirth) reached the point enough true information presented itself to the mind and was united with to effect that ephiphany of inner change.

Plus, experience denies a wholly purified spirit. Paul denies it: "I find then the principle that evil is present in me, the one who wishes to do good." (Rom 7:21) God denies it: "For My people are foolish, They know Me not; They are stupid children, And they have no understanding. They are shrewd to do evil, But to do good they do not know." (Jer 4:22) and "The LORD looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand and seek God. They have all turned aside; they are all together become filthy. There is none that doeth good; no, not one." (Psa 14:2-3), and Jesus denied it: "And He was saying, "That which proceeds out of the man, that is what defiles the man. For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed the evil thoughts, fornications, thefts, murders, adulteries, deeds of coveting and wickedness, as well as deceit, sensuality, envy, slander, pride and foolishness. All these evil things proceed from within and defile the man." (Mark 7:20-23)

An age is whatever period of time that God establishes IMO. I have no idea how long, I only know the ultimate outcome....IMO.

Maybe another CU familiar with this idea can weigh in and explain how this works. I don't mean to be controversial, I honestly don't see how the age-enduring concept works.

 

[Hillsage]

On the other hand your separation of spirit to God, soul to sleep and presumably body to decomposition doesn't work for me. Spirit restored to a "relationship" while soul sleeps? Where is consciousness in this view?

separation of at least body/spirit is easily supported I think.

ECC 12:7 and the dust/body returns to the earth as it was, and the spirit returns to God who gave it.

Where is "consciousness of a soul" even a biblical point? It sounds more 'Eastern' to me. My thoughts are the soul only sleeps until the time all souls are to be awakened to the awareness of judgment. The spirit needs no judgment or correction. The body has paid the price of sin...it died/perished.

But also, maybe the time of soul 'sleep/death (a Jesus correlation)' IS the soul's time of correction too...I don't know.

I see human spirit as fragmentally falsified, which at base causes imperfections and supplies the negative energy to the mind which constantly masticates, reasons, chooses, weighs, considers, contemplates and measures its content.

I believe that the human spirit that has been "broken/quenched/crushed" by the effects of sin in our lives still has as it's genetic source...God. And that is why even an unsaved person still has an influence from the candle of God within them.

Romans 2:14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:

The mind or soul eventually (arguably to varying degrees) unites with (makes a decision for) content provided to it, such as a temptation or urge to do good. The decision to steal is a union with falsified content, to help another in need is uniting with information with higher truth content. It's no secret that both present themselves to the mind. If spirit is the dynamic energy of the mind, your difficulty to my thinking is to explain how a mind can operate falsely when energized by a wholly pure and true spirit.

I don't think that the battle in/with the soul is 'the spirit within them'. I believe it is the "sinful flesh/earthly tent" that surrounds where the spirit/soul dwell. Jesus even told his non 'born again' disciples to trust their spirit.

Matthew 26:41 Watch and pray that you may not enter into temptation; the spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak."

As I see it, the spirit doesn't grow in anything, it is a force which passes on or provides one of two qualities to the soul, true or false.

I give those "false qualities"/attributes to evil spirits without and not our spirit within

In sanctification the false is fragmentally and gradually destroyed (this is Godly hellfire, which incinerates and annihilates all things false) and restores that destruction to a true state.

I agree, but think that the things destroyed are things acquired in our souls by the influence of the flesh and not the spirit.

Death and rebirth. It happens gradually, not all at once in time. I don't believe in a 'born aagain moment' where human spirit is made wholly true in an instant.

I lean on the words of Jesus who made that analogy equal to human birth which is a relatively instantaneous event, even though labor can take some time.

Those who claim a day and time they were born again to my thinking are only identifying the moment the working of sanctification (fragmentary spiritual death and rebirth) reached the point enough true information presented itself to the mind and was united with to effect that ephiphany of inner change.

My personal experience lines up OK in my mind with an instantaneous event. But one that also had a period of gestation prior. I don't envision my spirit as ever having been 'fragmented'...but only prodigal from the Father.

Plus, experience denies a wholly purified spirit. Paul denies it: "I find then the principle that evil is present in me, the one who wishes to do good." (Rom 7:21)

Context DD...context 4 verses later;

Romans 7:25 Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, I of myself serve the law of God with my mind, but with my flesh I serve the law of sin.

God denies it: "For My people are foolish, They know Me not; They are stupid children, And they have no understanding. They are shrewd to do evil, But to do good they do not know." (Jer 4:22)

Spoken before new birth was made available. But man was still able to seek the truth because of the "Christ spirit" available even in the OT;

1PE 1:10 The prophets who prophesied...11 inquired what person or time was indicated by the Spirit of Christ within them when predicting the sufferings of Christ and the subsequent glory.

and "The LORD looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand and seek God. They have all turned aside; they are all together become filthy.

For them to have "turned aside" means they were 'turned' the right way to begin with, doesn't it?

There is none that doeth good; no, not one." (Psa 14:2-3), and Jesus denied it:

Which merely speaks of a man who has surrendered to his "sinful flesh" IMO, but nothing here indicates it was because of 'his spirit'.

"And He was saying, "That which proceeds out of the man, that is what defiles the man. For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed the evil thoughts, fornications, thefts, murders, adulteries, deeds of coveting and wickedness, as well as deceit, sensuality, envy, slander, pride and foolishness. All these evil things proceed from within and defile the man." (Mark 7:20-23)

I don't believe that the spirit is metaphorically associated with the heart...but the belly, for both man and the Holy Spirit.

Proverbs 20:27 The spirit of man is the candle of the LORD, searching all the inward parts of the belly.

JOH 7:38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water. 39 (But this spake he of the Spirit,

Again I've written way to long and way too much...sorry.

 

[dumpsterdiver45]

I don't know. what if everything happened at once? maybe we are just remembering stories we dreamed up with God. maybe we are simply seeing the fine detail now. or going back over it with our soul who is the lower part of who we are.

maybe we came back and now decided to alter this reality, thus creating a different version of this place.

what is reality and, could it be that each of us experience this universe in our own way? maybe for each of us, we go through this place and when we die we see each of us came out of the best possible universe that made us saved. so maybe there are so many alternate universes that we shift from time to time to different ones, and the ultimate outcome is salvation for each as we pass through this life, once we go nearer the end ( which we are at) they all combine to one and then it goes back to it's eternal state of existence?

and so the illusion is that some are not saved. and it seems like some lived terrible lives but this is only from one point of view from my perspective, maybe in universe 3w hitler was saved and that was enough but he acted such and such way in this universe where I am currently in. prove that i don't shift from alternate reality to alternate reality if some are so close to each other that i would not notice if God shifted the reality.

just a theory. I could be in my own universe, this could be noxots universe and everyone here are projections of themselves here. maybe in dumpsterdiver45 universe there is a noxot there that is different due to the way things happen in his universe. maybe noxot is not saved in his universe but obviously noxot is saved in noxots universe. but it is still a image of noxot in every one elses universe and the most clear image of noxot is in the universe where he is saved in.

just because it is not revealed and manifest does not mean it is not true or true, when we die and see those bright and wonderful flowers and speak with jesus we might see that this place was one little bright flower. truth has no end, it is measureless. how do we think we can get a good hold on reality when we are so blind?

this reality is so low, it might only be when we go to the age of ages that we see that we finally all see ourselves clearly, as we are in Christ. what if i saw everyone and then went to sleep and had a dream, I know all and they are put into multiple layers of realitites forming my dream, images of all the children acting in my own dream, when i wake up i will have learned how to love my brothers and sisters no matter what, and each childs dream could be unique. and then some of us come back to the various dreams to influence them in some kind of profound way. or we watch other peoples dreams in various forms on different levels of their dream reality.

Interesting explanation, noxot, but I'm getting a headache trying to follow it. The old neurons don't fire very fast any more. But this description seems to favor what I understand to be a more Gnostic idea, moving evil and its rubble to mere illusion. Illusion is part of sin's power, conceded, but I see it as a dynamic, more real than mind gaming.

I like your creativity though, you make me think.

 

[Noxot]

Interesting explanation, noxot, but I'm getting a headache trying to follow it. The old neurons don't fire very fast any more. But this description seems to favor what I understand to be a more Gnostic idea, moving evil and its rubble to mere illusion. Illusion is part of sin's power, conceded, but I see it as a dynamic, more real than mind gaming.

I like your creativity though, you make me think.

it was just contemplation about the possibility of how reality could be like. really it is hard to grasp that which can't even be explained in human or angelic languages. you saw what happened when angels told moses things and then moses put it into human words. the next thing you know, everyone is throwing stones at each other due to blind hearts.


I hope someone sees clearly that some explanations clearly makes some kind of sense to other people enough for them to be convinced of a higher viewing of God. imo it is better not getting into fine details and just giving people multiple possible explanations of how universal salvation works. keep the ideas of it open and free to a certain degree so that more people are convinced of Gods mercy and plan even though the reality is not clearly seen in detail. honestly... truth is way higher than knowledge and so too much knowledge tends to quench the Spirit. especially when it is blind humans speaking about such high things ( universal salvation is already above most christians ideas of God )

but we should tend to stick with the best explanations available and discard unworthy views of God. but we ought not get into profitless arguments over the various theories of universal salvation. but all the carnal christians will make war with everything they cling to, not able to come to a point of spiritual understanding. carnality makes wars to attempt to force an external unity. human beings entire idea of knowledge must be corrected, it has to be more Spirit based rather than carnal based. spiritual is more free and yet more solid. carnal tends to be flaky and decays. spirit is fresh fruit, carnal is what happens after the fruit grows rotten.